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Tags border walls , donald trump , immigration issues , Trump controversies

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Old 14th February 2019, 06:33 PM   #41
CapelDodger
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@Meadmaker

Quote:
Oh...my....God.


So, the President says he's going to do an end run around Congress in order to keep out illegal aliens...…...and Nancy Pelosi responded by saying, "Oh, yeah. Well if we get into office, we're going to do an end run around Congress so we can take away your guns."

Thanks, Nancy. That really helps.
Pelosi didn't say "we're going to do an end-run ...", she said that, with this precedent, a Democratic President could do that - on guns, or climate change, or health-care or whatever. A perfectly good point to make. It's not as if she's saying "We will allow Trump to establish this precedent so we can take advantage of it", is it? If it is allowed, it'll be Republicans who allow it, and they can hardly now claim ignorance of the potential consequences.
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Old 14th February 2019, 06:37 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Oh...my....God.


So, the President says he's going to do an end run around Congress in order to keep out illegal aliens...…...and Nancy Pelosi responded by saying, "Oh, yeah. Well if we get into office, we're going to do an end run around Congress so we can take away your guns."

Thanks, Nancy. That really helps.
That's not what Pelosi said. She didn't say the Dems would do that. She's pointing out that he's setting a very bad precedent because that's what could happen when a president declares national emergencies for their own political agenda.

ETA: ninja'd by CapelDodger

Last edited by Stacyhs; 14th February 2019 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 14th February 2019, 06:39 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Oh...my....God.


So, the President says he's going to do an end run around Congress in order to keep out illegal aliens...…...and Nancy Pelosi responded by saying, "Oh, yeah. Well if we get into office, we're going to do an end run around Congress so we can take away your guns."

Thanks, Nancy. That really helps.
Actually it does as long as it stops Dictator Trump from ignoring democracy.
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Old 14th February 2019, 06:42 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I agree. Trump has the same opinion of his base as Lonesome Rhodes did. He wants to go back to his original plan in December.... Give up, go to Mar A Lago, claim victory. But the alt-right kaboshed that so he had to "Go To Shutdown Tough Guy" mode and got his butt whipped then, too. Now he's going to revert to Give Up Go to Mar A Lago Claim Victory. He will declare an emergency and then count on it getting blocked. He can then get back to his first love, campaigning, and claim that he tried but was blocked by evil Democrats. He's got the sound bytes ready. "Finish That Wall".... we already did most of it according to Trump math. Dems want to let murdering terrorist rapists into your Sunday School picnics!
"Finish the Wall!" doesn't, I think, quite hit the beat. "Finish It!" would be better, and has the advantage of being open-ended.
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Old 14th February 2019, 06:47 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm telling you all again, this is theater. Trump understands the law, but doesn't want to look bad. He CANNOT shut the government down again. That was a disaster.

He also KNOWS the courts will say no. But it's the optics he cares about. This way he can declare victory and keep blaming everyone else. He can get the crazies off his back and can even use this to rally them.
It's theatre for sure. If you think Trump understands the all nuances of what he is doing you are wrong. His thinking goes no further than his gut feelings
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Old 14th February 2019, 06:56 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
It's theatre for sure. If you think Trump understands the all nuances of what he is doing you are wrong. His thinking goes no further than his gut feelings
No, I don't think he does at all. This is entirely about him saving face. This is about him not wanting to appear that he "lost" or that he was "weak". Trumps entire career is based on his ability to bully others. He doesn't want to read headlines that he caved or Nancy Pelosi put a whuppin on him.
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Old 14th February 2019, 06:58 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, I don't think he does at all. This is entirely about him saving face. This is about him not wanting to appear that he "lost" or that he was "weak". Trumps entire career is based on his ability to bully others. He doesn't want to read headlines that he caved or Nancy Pelosi put a whuppin on him.
But she will. That hand-grenade WILL get tossed.

An alternative is that Trump is just bluffing about calling a National Emergency. But he will still tell his base something like, "I could have done it if I wanted! But I'm a great guy so I went easy on them."
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Old 14th February 2019, 07:04 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
IMHO, this is a defining moment for a lot of Republicans. What Trump is doing goes against standard Conservative doctrine:That for a long time the Presidency has gathered simply too much power for itself, well beyond what the Writers of the Consituion intended.(A statement I agree with). Now they are faced with the choice of sticking to principal or throwing principle out the window for temporary political gain. McConnell has made his choice:The hell with the Constituion. Now it is up for the other Republcians to make their choice. I am not very optimistic. The lust for power has totally corrupted the GOP.
That great line from "A Man For All Seasons" comes to mind:
"To gain the world and lose your soul is bad enough..but to sell your soul for Wales?".
Aahh, it's only bad when a black Democrat does it.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, I mean he literally can't pass laws.
I'm pretty sure that came as a major surprise to him back in 2017. He's had decades of fiat rule of his business empire. Why would he think the presidency would be any different?
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Old 14th February 2019, 07:13 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That great line from "A Man For All Seasons" comes to mind:
"To gain the world and lose your soul is bad enough..but to sell your soul for Wales?".
You clearly don't know Wales. It's worth anybody's soul.
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Old 14th February 2019, 08:17 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
An alternative is that Trump is just bluffing about calling a National Emergency. But he will still tell his base something like, "I could have done it if I wanted! But I'm a great guy so I went easy on them."
It defines the unpredictability of this Presidency in that it is equally possible that he could do a NO SIGN of the bill, as he originally threatened, or sign it and then NOT declare a National Emergency, just because he likes to feel the power he has messing with people's heads.

Or he could declare the emergency and really be as stupid as we thought.
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Old 14th February 2019, 08:51 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Good Anlysis from CNN:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/12/polit...gop/index.html

Anybody who thinks that the Dems in the House are not going to toss that grenade is living in La La Land.
They will pull out the pin and toss the grenade onto the Senate floor just as soon as they possibly can.... and Mitch McGruppenführer will be powerless to stop it going off.
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Old 14th February 2019, 09:15 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Oh...my....God.


So, the President says he's going to do an end run around Congress in order to keep out illegal aliens...…...and Nancy Pelosi responded by saying, "Oh, yeah. Well if we get into office, we're going to do an end run around Congress so we can take away your guns."

Thanks, Nancy. That really helps.
As others have pointed out, that's not what she said. But thanks for proving that old adage about a lie circling the globe before the truth can even get it's pants on.

The Trumpys have their lie, and they're going to run with it.

Last edited by crescent; 14th February 2019 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 14th February 2019, 09:32 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
But she will. That hand-grenade WILL get tossed.

An alternative is that Trump is just bluffing about calling a National Emergency. But he will still tell his base something like, "I could have done it if I wanted! But I'm a great guy so I went easy on them."
Of course Pelosi use it to rally the democrats and break the GOP's spine in congress. That's what she's best at, and that statement about what a dem president could declare a national emergency is her twisting them into a very painful position.

But, as I keep reminding y'all, one of Dolt 45's defining attributes is that he's stupid. He could easily just tell his base that he's building the wall right now, and truth is that they'd go along with it, no matter what Coulter, Limbaugh, and the like scream about. Instead, he's just handing the dems another lovely gift.
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Old 14th February 2019, 09:37 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The operative word being "rally", because it's that campaign rally buzz Trump really craves. This is his easy escape from politics, which confuses and bores him, and gets him back to simplistic sloganising before an adoring audience.
Which would point out that he would be bored out of his skull in a second term. Just live at Mar-a-Lago, sign all the papers there. He might easily croak in 2021.
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Old 14th February 2019, 09:42 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Which would point out that he would be bored out of his skull in a second term. Just live at Mar-a-Lago, sign all the papers there. He might easily croak in 2021.
Donny could do everyone a favour and speed that up. In fact, make it a challenge: Obama isn't dead yet, so Donny can be FIRST!
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Old 14th February 2019, 10:27 PM   #56
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If he does, and if the case ends up in court, there is a real chance that the current Supreme Court will allow the appropriation of funds from other sources to be used by a Republican president, but will deny it to a Democrat.
The current SCOTUS is happy to ignore precedent if it suits its ideology.
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Old 14th February 2019, 10:54 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If he does, and if the case ends up in court, there is a real chance that the current Supreme Court will allow the appropriation of funds from other sources to be used by a Republican president, but will deny it to a Democrat.
The current SCOTUS is happy to ignore precedent if it suits its ideology.
I would imagine the Dems are well aware of that. So it will get tied up in red tape in Congress and perhaps lower courts for a LONG time first. There are a number of entities who are prepared to launch suits. So even more time wasted...perhaps more than two years! ��
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Old 15th February 2019, 12:28 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I would imagine the Dems are well aware of that. So it will get tied up in red tape in Congress and perhaps lower courts for a LONG time first. There are a number of entities who are prepared to launch suits. So even more time wasted...perhaps more than two years! ��
This.

It is important for all the actors who want to stop Der Trumpenführer from taking this unconstitutional step, to take their turns, stagger their lawsuits and stretch it out as long as possible. Even if they manage to stall into halfway through 2020, and Trump does win, if he gets thrown out in November, then in Jan2021, the new Democrat congress and stop any wall construction dead in its tracks.
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Old 15th February 2019, 02:23 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
This.

It is important for all the actors who want to stop Der Trumpenführer from taking this unconstitutional step, to take their turns, stagger their lawsuits and stretch it out as long as possible. Even if they manage to stall into halfway through 2020, and Trump does win, if he gets thrown out in November, then in Jan2021, the new Democrat congress and stop any wall construction dead in its tracks.
I would imagine the suits will come from various angles. First, though, he has to attempt to do something. Right now, it's all speculation as to where he'll try to find the change behind the sofa cushions. The States effected can file via one venue. Injured individuals can file via another. And the Republicans have put forth that Congress (either house) can file suit against the administration if they can prove damages.

And we all know how long it took the Red States V. Obamacare to get to just the Appellate Court levels. How long would it take one such as a suit by Congress against the Right Dishonorable Donald J. Trump?
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Old 15th February 2019, 03:25 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Which would point out that he would be bored out of his skull in a second term. Just live at Mar-a-Lago, sign all the papers there. He might easily croak in 2021.
So you're calling for Trump's assassination if he wins re-election. (Pre-emptive Rule of So, before the Poopy Dog gets to it. )
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Old 15th February 2019, 03:26 AM   #61
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Because there's always a tweet: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/535441553079431168?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Quote:
Repubs must not allow Pres Obama to subvert the Constitution of the US for his own benefit & because he is unable to negotiate w/ Congress.
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Old 15th February 2019, 05:04 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Which would point out that he would be bored out of his skull in a second term. Just live at Mar-a-Lago, sign all the papers there. He might easily croak in 2021.

Tiberius on Twitter.
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Old 15th February 2019, 05:38 AM   #63
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The declaration of an emergency to complete a pet project pisses me off to no end. Even worse is McConnell saying he will support the president in this. Mitch... why even bother with a ******* legislature if you are going to allow the president to just declare an emergency when he is not getting what he wants.

IMO if the president declares an emergency like this and the senate and house vote to override it, it should not be subject to veto power. Otherwise that's concentrating too much power in the executive branch (which I would argue there already is). They'd be able to do pretty much whatever they wanted provided they had even a small amount of support in the Senate.

This is just crazy. I am dumbfounded by the whole thing. The more I think about it, the angrier I get. On purely ideological grounds, you'd think Republicans would be rioting in the streets over this. Just imagine if a Democratic president tried this.

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Old 15th February 2019, 05:53 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm telling you all again, this is theater. Trump understands the law, but doesn't want to look bad. He CANNOT shut the government down again. That was a disaster.
He also KNOWS the courts will say no. But it's the optics he cares about. This way he can declare victory and keep blaming everyone else. He can get the crazies off his back and can even use this to rally them.
I think he believes he will have a chance at the Supreme Court. I hope not.
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Old 15th February 2019, 05:55 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If he does, and if the case ends up in court, there is a real chance that the current Supreme Court will allow the appropriation of funds from other sources to be used by a Republican president, but will deny it to a Democrat.
The current SCOTUS is happy to ignore precedent if it suits its ideology.
Do you think that is something new for the courts?
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Old 15th February 2019, 06:05 AM   #66
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I am pro-wall, and I think reducing the required enforcement coverage will make the corridors easier to police, as well as freeing up resources at the ports of entry.

I am for Nancy declaring a National Emergency on illegal guns. That would be the greatest declaration ever. Trump should do it.
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Old 15th February 2019, 06:06 AM   #67
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Since there are supposedly 30 ongoing "national emergencies" such that the program is kinda BS, would a court stop any particular one? Are the ones going on since the Clinton administration actually justified?
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Old 15th February 2019, 06:14 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Since there are supposedly 30 ongoing "national emergencies" such that the program is kinda BS, would a court stop any particular one? Are the ones going on since the Clinton administration actually justified?
I suppose it would take someone with standing taking up the issue. How many of these 30 ongoing emergencies have been challenged by a Senator or Representative in court?
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Old 15th February 2019, 06:17 AM   #69
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I think he is going to reject the spending bill.

Supposedly, and I'm reading this on Twitter, there is a provision in the bill that allows border counties to reject wall construction. He won't have that. The cartels have influence over some local politicians, so he will not accept that provision.
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Old 15th February 2019, 06:39 AM   #70
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So the Mexicans aren't paying for it then?
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Old 15th February 2019, 06:44 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
So the Mexicans aren't paying for it then?
they are - if they are US taxpayers.
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Old 15th February 2019, 06:51 AM   #72
Foolmewunz
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Parcher-
I think he is going to reject the spending bill.

Supposedly, and I'm reading this on Twitter, there is a provision in the bill that allows border counties to reject wall construction. He won't have that. The cartels have influence over some local politicians, so he will not accept that provision.
Source? That's about the eleventh Twitter Rumor (usually promulgated by uber right wingers) the Donnie ultimately won't sign.

I think there's a better chance that he not only signs but that he says, "Just kidding about the emergency dontcha know."
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Old 15th February 2019, 06:58 AM   #73
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Parcher-
I think he is going to reject the spending bill.

Supposedly, and I'm reading this on Twitter, there is a provision in the bill that allows border counties to reject wall construction. He won't have that. The cartels have influence over some local politicians, so he will not accept that provision.
That option went out the window last night when both chambers passed the bill by greater than two-thirds majorities -- it's veto-proof.
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Old 15th February 2019, 07:20 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Since there are supposedly 30 ongoing "national emergencies" such that the program is kinda BS, would a court stop any particular one? Are the ones going on since the Clinton administration actually justified?
Clinton? Try FDR.

Some of these are clearly idiotic, and in no way constitute 'emergencies'

(obv. this is Wikipedia so treat it with all due caution)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States
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Old 15th February 2019, 07:40 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
That option went out the window last night when both chambers passed the bill by greater than two-thirds majorities -- it's veto-proof.
They had a veto-proof bill before. But Mitch refused to allow a vote. I may be wrong but couldn't he do that again? I don't think its likely but it is legally possible.
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Old 15th February 2019, 08:01 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
They had a veto-proof bill before. But Mitch refused to allow a vote. I may be wrong but couldn't he do that again? I don't think its likely but it is legally possible.
McConnell can't refuse a re-vote on a veto; the Constitution says they have to "reconsider."
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Old 15th February 2019, 08:03 AM   #77
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I really hope the Democrats have "But they can't do that!" crocheted on the pillows in their parlor at this point.
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Old 15th February 2019, 08:15 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
McConnell can't refuse a re-vote on a veto; the Constitution says they have to "reconsider."
I think the point was that the there was a bill presented that, if it passed and the president veto'd it, it would have overridden the veto. McConnell refused to allow the bill to even come to a vote so it could never get veto'd in the first place.
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Old 15th February 2019, 08:21 AM   #79
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I just want to point out that there is no automatic veto override. If Trump vetoed the bill, there would have to be a second vote, even though the first vote had enough support to clear the veto override.

It is conceivable that a "veto proof" bill could fail to override a veto if enough of the original supporters changed their vote on the second time around.

I think it's rare, if unheard of, for a president to call the bluff of a veto proof bill, but given the especially whipped nature of the Republicans right now, I wouldn't be totally shocked if they bent themselves over for Trump on a second vote.
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Old 15th February 2019, 08:25 AM   #80
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What exactly is national emergency and what evidence is there for it?
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