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Old 9th July 2019, 09:55 AM   #81
The Great Zaganza
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...and, of course, the better educated your kids are, the more likely it is they will find a job in the Big City or, Jesus forbid, abroad.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:12 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The only thing I think ought to be done is make sure, through subsidies if necessary, that they have modern internet and cell phone access,
HughesNet Gen 5 satellite internet has something like 20MBPS bandwith, and is available everywhere for about the same price as the cable version.

Cell phone access is a different story, though. I would not require people to go to satellite phone.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:35 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
HughesNet Gen 5 satellite internet has something like 20MBPS bandwith, and is available everywhere for about the same price as the cable version.
What is the cost of that to get started (dish and equipment and installation) and then what is the monthly fee, in America?
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:20 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What is the cost of that to get started (dish and equipment and installation) and then what is the monthly fee, in America?
They regularly have free installation, and monthly costs are the same for what I am paying for our cable version.

We used to have Hughesnet, because they did installation the day after we moved into our house, and Xfinity was going to take 2 weeks. After the good Hughesnet deal expired, we switched over. More reliable and faster on Xfinity
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:34 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Naa, all the good stuff now comes in from mexico. It is really hurting the mom and pop meth cookers.


Well, there's our solution. Legalize Artisanal, Hand-Made Meth. Set it up like the Japanese restrictions on how many swords a smith may make in a given month. Say, one kilogram per manufacturer*. Spread the demand around between enough AHMM producers, and they could all have a solid middle-class income.



*I'll cop to right now: I have no idea what constitutes "a lot of meth"; everything I know about it I learned from Breaking Bad.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:35 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
They regularly have free installation, and monthly costs are the same for what I am paying for our cable version.

We used to have Hughesnet, because they did installation the day after we moved into our house, and Xfinity was going to take 2 weeks. After the good Hughesnet deal expired, we switched over. More reliable and faster on Xfinity
I just looked up HughesNet. They have data caps whereas many or most others do not. As an example they offer 30GB of data for $100 a month at a speed of about 25mbps.

A cable internet user can get that speed and unlimited data for half the price per month.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:06 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And letting some of those towns simply disappear and turn into wildlife habitat doesn't seem like it would be a truly awful thing.
I want more wildlife habitat, but that's going to be unappealing to people who have lived there for many generations.

How about letting some Indian reservations disappear and instead become wildlife habitat? Same problem though as the people won't want that very much.
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:13 PM   #88
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The answer is BEES!

OK, in all seriousness, what is the loss of electricity when transmitting power over long distances? Because I wonder if it is worthwhile to build any future Nuclear power plants (if they ever happen) in these distant rural areas, or would loss of power getting it to the urban areas be too lossy?

Of course, this just creates a similar situation: you work at the plant, work for the people who work at the plant, or you are nothing. And the training needed to work a nuclear power plant means a lot of jobs are going to people brought in while the lesser work goes to locals.
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:19 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
The answer is BEES!

OK, in all seriousness, what is the loss of electricity when transmitting power over long distances? Because I wonder if it is worthwhile to build any future Nuclear power plants (if they ever happen) in these distant rural areas, or would loss of power getting it to the urban areas be too lossy?

Of course, this just creates a similar situation: you work at the plant, work for the people who work at the plant, or you are nothing. And the training needed to work a nuclear power plant means a lot of jobs are going to people brought in while the lesser work goes to locals.
Well they are better situated for wind and solar, and for housing there are batteries if transmission becomes a big deal. Though again what is eating up all the increased power? As a percent of the system it is unlikely to be all that much.

Wind and solar have been boom industries in some areas, though again not necessarily great job creators but can be good for land owners.
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:20 PM   #90
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This thread has become an exercise in misconceptions and prejucide on both sides .
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:09 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
This thread has become an exercise in misconceptions and prejucide on both sides .
Set everyone straight and end the thread.
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:11 PM   #92
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Basic problem is that the businesses that were the foundatation of Small Towns require a lot fewer people then they once did. This is not a new problem;as early as the 1930's Modern Farm Machinery meant that one person on a farm could do work that early required five.
And other industries..mining and timber..also were modernized and the number of people required drastically cut.
Just surprised it took this long for a crisis to be reached.
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:20 PM   #93
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1000 acres, 300 Holsteins and 2 workers?
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Old 9th July 2019, 04:37 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well they are better situated for wind and solar, and for housing there are batteries if transmission becomes a big deal. Though again what is eating up all the increased power? As a percent of the system it is unlikely to be all that much.

Wind and solar have been boom industries in some areas, though again not necessarily great job creators but can be good for land owners.
Yeah, I was kind of figuring that wind & solar isn't a big job creator, but if we can pay people for owning the land fracking lines go through in PA we can have the power companies pay for power towers.

This sucks if you don't any viable land for solar & wind, though. Which is probably a lot of people in rural areas.
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Old 9th July 2019, 06:27 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
This thread has become an exercise in misconceptions and prejucide on both sides .
I'm not sure it didn't start that way. I'm not sure if this thread has a point other than, "They vote for Trump, so they suck, so who cares about them?"


Well, I, for one, don't care about them, despite having come of them myself, but their tendency to support Trump is not the reason. I just think that the decline of small town America is purely due to economics and technological change, and there's no reason we ought to do a whole lot of hand-wringing about keeping small towns in existence. If they are economically viable, they'll live.


I do think that we should make at least some attempt to make sure that all people have access to what are considered modern needs, like internet, and some fairly sophisticated health care, and certainly quality education, and we should at least make some attempt to supply those to people in rural areas. However, even those have limits. If it's too expensive to provide electricity, or medicine, or whatever, at some point we have to look at priorities and say that if you want those things, you have to live closer to other people.
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Old 10th July 2019, 03:05 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Basic problem is that the businesses that were the foundatation of Small Towns require a lot fewer people then they once did. This is not a new problem;as early as the 1930's Modern Farm Machinery meant that one person on a farm could do work that early required five.
And other industries..mining and timber..also were modernized and the number of people required drastically cut.
Just surprised it took this long for a crisis to be reached.
Has it taken that long? Displaced farm workers were what provided the labor pool for the industrial revolution. Look at the Luddites breaking new weaving equipment in 1811.
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Old 10th July 2019, 03:42 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well... duh obviously. The only alternative seems to be just accept a massive number of people sitting around with nothing to lose getting more and more bitter and angry and that seems... less than ideal to me.
Which has already happened in many US urban centres.
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Old 10th July 2019, 04:00 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Well that's what the market seems to be saying.

Would the money be better spent providing social housing (to make living where the jobs are less expensive) rather than trying to buck the trend and bring high tech jobs to rural areas ?
This.
The hypocrisy of certain USAian politicians who vehemently support "The Market" as a magic cure-all, until it starts hurting their constituents, is regulsive.
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Old 10th July 2019, 04:01 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Most all those "industries" we laughingly say "went away" didn't poof off into the nothing.

Coal's dead and it was mercy killed far too late but people still drive cars, build stuff out of steel, and eat food.

When Amazon was deciding where to build it's second headquarters it didn't even consider Detroit or Flint, it was already job market saturated cities. You're worth 900 gazillion dollars Bezos take one for the team.
Why should he? What shouldn't the government do the work? Provide infrastructure, retaining and upskilling, housing, services et cetera
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Old 10th July 2019, 04:03 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So what's the goal here? A few dozen megacities sprinkled throughout a continent sized national park?
Environmentally a better solution.

Remember agriculture as it currently exists is doomed. Carniculture, for example, will eliminate most rearing of animals for slaughter as currently happens. Yes most meat producers are utterly blind towards it's effects on them and their market.
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Old 10th July 2019, 04:12 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
<>
One suggestion is that high tech jobs could be done remotely in rural communities but the issues associated with that such as a lack of infrastructure, skills, political will and critical mass have been outlined. Of course if city job markets don't have sufficient capacity then those jobs won't be available to "export" to rural areas either.
Exactly. While there's a lot of interest in co-working centres by the high techs (I've involved with several here in Ireland) as remote locations for their staff there are appearing mostly in dormitory towns and outer suburbs, not in rural backwaters. It's down to the necessary infrastructure and workforce availability.
Even when they're appearing in more remote locations, like Valentia, this is not typically to attract locals to work for the tech companies, but to service existing/prospective workers for the tech companies who'd refer to like outside cities.



Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Another suggestion is that existing rural industries could be subsidised and/or made more inefficient so as to employ people uneconomically, but it's not clear to me how deliberate inefficiency helps the wider economy.
The British Albion model. A purely political model.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I suppose new industries could be promoted and encouraged to establish themselves in areas that they otherwise wouldn't but again it's not clear to me the benefits of doing that vs. allowing businesses to set up where they want.
Most new industries tend to be high skill and high tech, hence they'd need the same skilled workers and infrastructure as are needed in the cities.
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Old 10th July 2019, 04:13 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So how do we make relocating more affordable? What are the barriers that are preventing them from going to the city? And this is of course an argument that we can't or shouldn't revitalize rural america.
Housing. Training to actually find a useful job.
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Old 10th July 2019, 04:18 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I'm not aware of any magacities; urban areas tend to vote Democrat. Can you name one?
Given that "Megacity" has no definitive definition that's rather tricky. However if we take the UN WUP definition of an urban/metropolitan area with a population of over ten million people the USA has two: New York and Los Angeles, with the SFB area heading towards a third.
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Old 10th July 2019, 04:22 AM   #104
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Rural America should prepare for the time when many costal cities will sink underwater.
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Old 10th July 2019, 04:35 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Given that "Megacity" has no definitive definition that's rather tricky. However if we take the UN WUP definition of an urban/metropolitan area with a population of over ten million people the USA has two: New York and Los Angeles, with the SFB area heading towards a third.
I have no doubt that both are megacities, but Clinton beat Trump rather handily in both, therefore neither comes close to qualifying as a magacity.
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Old 10th July 2019, 11:45 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Basic problem is that the businesses that were the foundatation of Small Towns require a lot fewer people then they once did. This is not a new problem;as early as the 1930's Modern Farm Machinery meant that one person on a farm could do work that early required five.
And other industries..mining and timber..also were modernized and the number of people required drastically cut.
Just surprised it took this long for a crisis to be reached.

It didn't. It was reaching crisis proportions when I was growing up in WV over half a century ago.

It's just that it still is, and more conservative politicians are using it as a cudgel.

Unfortunately they are making an issue about it only as a political tool, with no real interest in alleviating anything.

Trump's gonna bring the coal jobs back.

Yeah. Right.

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Old 10th July 2019, 12:00 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So how do we make relocating more affordable? What are the barriers that are preventing them from going to the city? And this is of course an argument that we can't or shouldn't revitalize rural america.

Housing. Training to actually find a useful job.

Sure. That idea made Hillary a shoo-in in Appalachia.

Or not.

Trump won WV with 68.5% of the vote, the largest margin of any state in the U.S. This in a state that elected only three Republican Presidents between 1932 and 1996.

Hillary; 'We need to put together training programs for alternatives.'

Trump; 'I'm gonna bring the coal jobs back.'
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Old 10th July 2019, 01:28 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Unfortunately they are making an issue about it only as a political tool, with no real interest in alleviating anything.

That's the thing I find disturbing. Trump isn't doing anything for rural America, and I don't really see any reason that he ought to, but somehow he has people convinced that something he is doing is significant for those people.


In this thread we see a little bit of backlash. Some people are insisting we shouldn't do anything for them. Well, then, those people ought to support Trump's position, because Trump isn't doing anything for them.


Politics gets weird sometimes.
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Old 10th July 2019, 01:47 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Basic problem is that the businesses that were the foundatation of Small Towns require a lot fewer people then they once did. This is not a new problem;as early as the 1930's Modern Farm Machinery meant that one person on a farm could do work that early required five.
And other industries..mining and timber..also were modernized and the number of people required drastically cut.
Just surprised it took this long for a crisis to be reached.

I think the crisis is in the cities with high crime, people living in the streets, pollution, congestion, no sense of community. I guess it depends on your (not you dudalb) perspective. The cities aren't doing too well either.

The answers to all of our problems do not lie within city limits, in fact I see problems like homelessness getting worse at a staggering pace. I have no desire to live in a city, ever, not for any job or reason. There is more to life than being a slave to your job.

Example: I'm going fishin' today. Bye!
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:06 PM   #110
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Interesting.
It’s been argued for years that the way to stem illegal immigration is to enact policies that drive economic development in struggling Latin American countries such that emigrating is no longer seen as preferable to simply living there.

Here the argument seems to be that revitalizing economically depressed rural areas within the US is seen as wasteful, and that relocation should be encouraged.
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:08 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Interesting.
Itís been argued for years that the way to stem illegal immigration is to enact policies that drive economic development in struggling Latin American countries such that emigrating is no longer seen as preferable to simply living there.

Here the argument seems to be that revitalizing economically depressed rural areas within the US is seen as wasteful, and that relocation should be encouraged.
You're right: we should encourage immigration from the rural US to urban Mexico and Central America!
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:12 PM   #112
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I’m just saying: Helping people where they are tends to be a reasonable choice when you care for them.
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Old 10th July 2019, 10:49 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I think the crisis is in the cities with high crime, people living in the streets, pollution, congestion, no sense of community. I guess it depends on your (not you dudalb) perspective. The cities aren't doing too well either.

The answers to all of our problems do not lie within city limits, in fact I see problems like homelessness getting worse at a staggering pace. I have no desire to live in a city, ever, not for any job or reason. There is more to life than being a slave to your job.

Example: I'm going fishin' today. Bye!
per capita, crime is way, WAY worse in rural areas.
So is drug abuse.
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Old 11th July 2019, 02:11 AM   #114
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Can Rural America be revitalized?
Absolutely. Start here:
It’s Time to Rethink America’s Corn System

Next is the regulatory capture set up starting in the 1930's to drive black farmers off the land, and later administrations used to drive small local farms off their land that needs fixed.

The Butz Stops Here: Why the Food Movement Needs to Rethink Agricultural History

This by necessity will involve rebuilding certain infrastructure as well. It doesn't do a farmer any good to raise 10,000 broilers when 97% of all processing capacity is owned by the 4 biggest companies, and they ain't letting you use theirs. So local production facilities and other infrastructure like government inspection capacity need rebuilt.

Once you have the plans for doing all that, then one way to make it all profitable is eliminate the crop insurance program and replace it with a carbon market. This way restoring soil carbon (and fertility) becomes real income instead of hidden costs.

That should do it. The farmers will figure the rest out on their own. Once the agricultural base is restored, then rural communities become viable again.

Right now well over 1/2 of all farmers lose money every year and must take second jobs just to break even. That was of course done on purpose as a matter of policy in an attempt to destabilize them financially and force them off the land. So clearly that whole system needs restructured before any rebuilding of rural communities can happen. Otherwise you are just throwing money away.

Quote:
Get big, or get out!-Earl Butz
Should Rural America be revitalized?
Absolutely yes, unless your goal is the destruction of the country. Agriculture is the foundation of all civilization. No country can survive long having cannibalized its own foundation. The changes needed to regenerate rural communities are exactly what are required to allow farmers to profitably practice regenerative agriculture, reversing the downward trend.

Quote:
"The nation that destroys its soil destroys itself." - Franklin D. Roosevelt
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Old 11th July 2019, 02:27 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Should Rural America be revitalized?
Absolutely yes, unless your goal is the destruction of the country. Agriculture is the foundation of all civilization. No country can survive long having cannibalized its own foundation. The changes needed to regenerate rural communities are exactly what are required to allow farmers to profitably practice regenerative agriculture, reversing the downward trend.
If agriculture is going to be (more) profitable it's going to have to involve some combination of higher income and lower costs.

Driving down costs typically means larger scale farming and increased mechanisation, neither of which contributes to the revitalisation of rural America IMO. It may result in a few, wealthy, owners of farming conglomerates but not a healthy economic environment in which large numbers of people are making a good living from a range of goods and services.

Higher income will necessarily come from some combination of higher food prices and increased farm subsidies. Either way this means that urban populations are going to be paying to maintain the lifestyles of rural populations. Even if income does increase, it doesn't necessarily follow that the benefits will come to anyone other than a few wealthy large agribusiness owners.

Large farms are more financially efficient than small farms and tend towards increased mechanisation. Unless you're going to legislate against large farms and/or mechanisation in farming, it's not clear to me how the trends are going to be reversed.
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Old 11th July 2019, 02:49 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If agriculture is going to be (more) profitable it's going to have to involve some combination of higher income and lower costs.

Driving down costs typically means larger scale farming and increased mechanisation, neither of which contributes to the revitalisation of rural America IMO. It may result in a few, wealthy, owners of farming conglomerates but not a healthy economic environment in which large numbers of people are making a good living from a range of goods and services.

Higher income will necessarily come from some combination of higher food prices and increased farm subsidies. Either way this means that urban populations are going to be paying to maintain the lifestyles of rural populations. Even if income does increase, it doesn't necessarily follow that the benefits will come to anyone other than a few wealthy large agribusiness owners.

Large farms are more financially efficient than small farms and tend towards increased mechanisation. Unless you're going to legislate against large farms and/or mechanisation in farming, it's not clear to me how the trends are going to be reversed.
That's rather naive actually. Just making **** up off the top of your head is not skepticism my friend. That's why I provided actual evidence to support my analysis.

I can provide more too of course, but none of the claims you made require it, since they are way off. American agriculture is inefficient, not efficient. The larger the farms become the more inefficient they become. And also the whole mechanization thing is silly. All farmers in US can be mechanized if needed. They were mechanized before Butz and they are mechanized now. It's a non issue. There is plenty of mechanization available at any scale from the market garden all the way up to the 20,000 acre ranch and every scale in between. Affording it is a different issue though.
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Old 11th July 2019, 02:51 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
That's rather naive actually. Just making **** up off the top of your head is not skepticism my friend. That's why I provided actual evidence to support my analysis.

I can provide more too of course, but none of the claims you made require it, since they are way off.
Why is it naive ?

Will what you propose result in higher food costs ? If not, how will farmers make more money ?
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:08 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Why is it naive ?

Will what you propose result in higher food costs ? If not, how will farmers make more money ?
Any time you remove 100's of billions in subsidies, of course the final consumer cost will increase..by about that same 100s of billions at least. But they paid that extra in taxes anyway, so no big overall increase. However, real cost to produce and get to a consumers plate can be actually cheaper and more efficient for local small farmers, removing all that regulatory burden and subsidy interference in the market.

Actually paying them a carbon dividend for practicing regenerative ag would make it cheaper still.
Quote:
"If all farmland was a net sink rather than a net source for CO2, atmospheric CO2 levels would fall at the same time as farm productivity and watershed function improved. This would solve the vast majority of our food production, environmental and human health ‘problems’." Dr. Christine Jones
Fancy that? Paying for a service rather than the old liberal paradigm of paying farmers NOT to grow crops? Or even worse the new fascist paradigm of paying insurance companies to just under break even for the farmer, and big agrobiz companies direct subsidies to inefficiently get rid of the over-production.... just make sure actual farmers don't get paid... That's your idea?
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:39 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Any time you remove 100's of billions in subsidies, of course the final consumer cost will increase..by about that same 100s of billions at least. But they paid that extra in taxes anyway, so no big overall increase. However, real cost to produce and get to a consumers plate can be actually cheaper and more efficient for local small farmers, removing all that regulatory burden and subsidy interference in the market.

Actually paying them a carbon dividend for practicing regenerative ag would make it cheaper still.

Fancy that? Paying for a service rather than the old liberal paradigm of paying farmers NOT to grow crops? Or even worse the new fascist paradigm of paying insurance companies to just under break even for the farmer, and big agrobiz companies direct subsidies to inefficiently get rid of the over-production.... just make sure actual farmers don't get paid... That's your idea?
Nice strawman argument

All I'm doing is pointing out that if half of farmers aren't making money then if they're (nearly) all going to make money, they're going to have to recieve more money - either for their produce and/or via subsidy (or carbon dividend which amounts to the same thing). That money is going to come out of the pockets of urbanites one way or another.

I note that you're also advocating removing the regulatory burden. Remove the regulatory burden and that's going to reflect in the quality and safety of the food available to the general public.

If farming does start to make money then the big agribusinesses will still outcompete small farmers because they have economies of scale, greater political clout and the wherewithal to make life difficult for small farmers - unless there's legislation to protect smaller farmers but that sounds more like something the EU would do and distinctly unamerican.
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Old 11th July 2019, 05:22 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Nice strawman argument
Not a strawman, answering your question as to why i said it was naive. Of course that is not your view. At least I certainly hope not. I am assuming your intents and purposes are benign and the flaws come from naivety rather than malice.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
All I'm doing is pointing out that if half of farmers aren't making money then if they're (nearly) all going to make money, they're going to have to receive more money - either for their produce and/or via subsidy (or carbon dividend which amounts to the same thing). That money is going to come out of the pockets of urbanites one way or another.
Maybe but not necessarily. There actually is a rather large room for increased efficiency and streamlining. The current system is so wasteful that you could rather easily double what farmers make and still lower most food prices. The majority of this is caused by regulatory capture.

Quote:
Regulatory capture is a form of government failure which occurs when a regulatory agency, created to act in the public interest, instead advances the commercial or political concerns of special interest groups that dominate the industry or sector it is charged with regulating.
I did already mention this and even gave a good reference. I am sorry you did not understand what you were reading.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I note that you're also advocating removing the regulatory burden. Remove the regulatory burden and that's going to reflect in the quality and safety of the food available to the general public.
Yes it will. Usually by making it higher quality and safer. But indeed we shouldn't eliminate all regulations, just get rid of the ones that are counterproductive and no longer serve the public interest. (if they ever really did)

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If farming does start to make money then the big agribusinesses will still outcompete small farmers because they have economies of scale, greater political clout and the wherewithal to make life difficult for small farmers - unless there's legislation to protect smaller farmers but that sounds more like something the EU would do and distinctly unamerican.
If you mean agribiz will continue to bribe politicians to enact even more regulatory capture so they can get away with being even more wasteful and inefficient and still manage a profit...sure they will keep trying that.

Oh and 2 wrongs don't make a right. Just because I advocate the regulatory capture that favors wasteful inefficient industry be removed, doesn't mean I want a whole new set of regulatory capture enacted favoring small farms. You fell for the false dichotomy. Indeed that is just as unAmerican as what we have now.
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Biome Carbon Cycle Management

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