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Tags North Carolina incidents , North Carolina politics , republicans

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Old Yesterday, 02:48 PM   #161
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Seriously, though. Are you disputing that the events unfolded that way?
Yes.

Quote:
The basic facts are accurately recounted in that Republican legislator’s blog.
I've highlighted the problematic part.

Quote:
1. It was announced that there would be no more votes.
2. 2 Republicans took the last day off
3. They decided to hold the vote when that became known.

That’s just history. If you think the legislator is wrong and things didn’t happen that way, it’s on you to show that.
A Republican legislator's blog isn't "history". It's one biased person's version of events.

And no, it's not on me to disprove an unsubstantiated claim.

So I'll ask again: Do you have another source besides a Republican legislator's blog?
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Old Yesterday, 02:52 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Unfortunately for your side, there was no special pleading involved, only whataboutism.
It doesn't even really rise to level of whataboutism because the underlying claim is unsubstantiated.

What we have instead is an abandonment of the principles of critical thinking in a futile attempt to create a whataboutism.
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Old Yesterday, 06:10 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Unfortunately for your side, there was no special pleading involved, only whataboutism.


Uh....
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post

Smarmy tactics. The NC GOP, were this a civilized country, would be banned from participation in politics for about five years.


Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
So from what I am reading out resident conservatives are just with this crap. Got it.


Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
They are basically crapping on 9/11 victims. And you are ok with that.

And that's the GOP for you.


Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
So I just have one question.

Is it time to swap the GOP elephant for the GOP limbo bar?


Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Did it make those sissy latte sipping libruls mad?

Then why are we asking why they did it? We all know.


Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
In the past, that wasn't necessary... both sides recognized that the needed to act civil, respect the processes that were in place, etc.



Now that the republicans have basically peed in the pool with their dirty tricks, and showed themselves to be completely untrustworthy, it looks like they might need to enact those type of rules.


Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Right wingers tend to have the mindset that if it's not illegal, then it's fair to do. And by illegal, they really mean if they can get away with it.


Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
It's a waste of time to you because you know everything. And it's a waste of time to anyone trying to convert die-hard GOP supporters because they are textbook examples of cognitive dissonance. But to the marginal supporters, it actually works and gets their attention. I think people should continue to point out the hypocrisy and let the voters decide. Giving "other Republicans"(not The Trump, himself) a pass is the worst idea imaginable. You see it as fruitless. I see it as rewarding.


We don't care if they don't care. Less than 1/3 of the country identifies as Republican. It's the other 70% we're reminding, as often as possible, what a bunch of lying weasel scumbag hypocrites they're supporting if they vote for them on their lying promises or if they sweep it under the rug as you're proposing.
The quoted posts are arguments that it’s the GOP that are uniquely bad. That this incident represents the party as a whole. That right-wingers are dirty and unethical. That’s called “special pleading.” That the electorate needs to be shown just how bad they are.

I posted a story that blows up that “GOP=Evil” narrative. Both parties have engaged in this behavior.

Politics is a ****** business. Please don’t argue that your side is above it.
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Old Yesterday, 06:28 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Uh....

The quoted posts are arguments that it’s the GOP that are uniquely bad. That this incident represents the party as a whole. That right-wingers are dirty and unethical. That’s called “special pleading.” That the electorate needs to be shown just how bad they are.

I posted a story that blows up that “GOP=Evil” narrative. Both parties have engaged in this behavior.

Politics is a ****** business. Please don’t argue that your side is above it.

While you're off doing your "victory lap" the rest of us are still waiting for you to support your claim with an actual cite.

Any time you're prepared to provide that, that would be great!
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Old Yesterday, 07:43 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The quoted posts are arguments that it’s the GOP that aI posted a story that blows up that “GOP=Evil” narrative. Both parties have engaged in this behavior.
Yeah, you posted a “story” all right.

What you’ve yet to provide is a reason for anyone to accept this story at face-value like you and theprestige so eagerly did.

If the subject of this thread was so readily believed based on nothing more than one Democratic legislator’s version of events, every conservative on this forum would be here jumping on our heads with both feet, and rightly so.

Your pretense at being some kind of neutral arbiter of facts is a joke.
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Old Yesterday, 07:50 PM   #166
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Remembering 9/11...Republican style

Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yes.







I've highlighted the problematic part.
In what way is it problematic? That’s what happened. No spin, just facts.


Quote:
A Republican legislator's blog isn't "history". It's one biased person's version of events.
And from all versions of events, history is written. There is no version of that story that disputes the basic facts of what happened.



Quote:
And no, it's not on me to disprove an unsubstantiated claim.



So I'll ask again: Do you have another source besides a Republican legislator's blog?


I feel like I could post any source and you’ll dismiss it because reasons...but here are couple more that outline the same basic events:

https://nsjonline.com/article/2019/0...y-controversy/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nort...cation_Lottery

Here’s a cite that includes a clipping from a contemporary news account:

https://lockerroom.johnlocke.org/201...ation-lottery/

The pertinent part of the clipping:

Quote:
“Senate leader Marc Basnight promised the chamber was done for the year and would not return. But Basnight, a Democrat from coastal Dare County, changed his mind on Friday. And with two Republican senators absent Tuesday, Democrats has the votes – with [Lt. Gov. Bev] Perdue’s help – to push through the lottery legislation.”
I’ve provided enough cites there that agree with each other and the facts as I extracted them from that “evil conservative blog.” I just know you will dismiss them but you look a bit silly dismissing reality. No harm in being silly though.
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Old Yesterday, 07:55 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yeah, you posted a “story” all right.



What you’ve yet to provide is a reason for anyone to accept this story at face-value like you and theprestige so eagerly did.



If the subject of this thread was so readily believed based on nothing more than one Democratic legislator’s version of events, every conservative on this forum would be here jumping on our heads with both feet, and rightly so.



Your pretense at being some kind of neutral arbiter of facts is a joke.


Speaking of stories...any comment on the OP story not being as advertised? For someone so concerned with complete substantiation, they sure screwed the pooch there, huh?
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Old Yesterday, 09:31 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Speaking of stories...any comment on the OP story not being as advertised? For someone so concerned with complete substantiation, they sure screwed the pooch there, huh?
Dude, your whataboutism game is garbage.

And that you thought you could somehow turn anything I’ve said into a demand for “complete substantiation” without anyone noticing just makes me embarrassed for you.
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Old Yesterday, 10:06 PM   #169
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Ah, yes! The old UNIQUELY gambit. Wasn't it Ziggurat who got ten pages of whataboutism (covering multiple decades, if not complete centuries) out of a similar straw man claim? I'm pretty sure it was in defense of Trump, but the argument was "Show that Trump is Uniquely more __________ (evil, incompetent, a liar, whatever...).

It may be a fine point of grammar and vocabulary, but the argument is not that the North Carolina GOP is UNIQUELY scummy, but that the North Carolina GOP is SPECIFICALLY scummy,... in this case. The fact that LaGuardia did similar tricks in NYC or Huey Long in Louisiana has no bearing whatsoever. Was the GOP action in this case scummy? Yes, it was.
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Old Yesterday, 10:09 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I feel like I could post any source and you’ll dismiss it because reasons...
Translation: I can’t find a single neutral source for this event I’m claiming is a matter of public record, so I’m going to make it your fault for pointing out that I’ve got nothing.

Quote:
but here are couple more that outline the same basic events:
Yes, let’s continue with the charade that you had all these sources to choose from and you just randomly settled on these.

https://nsjonline.com/article/2019/0...y-controversy/

Does not confirm the claim that the Democrats deceived the Republicans.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nort...cation_Lottery

Does not confirm... well, anything.

Quote:
Here’s a cite that includes a clipping from a contemporary news account:

https://lockerroom.johnlocke.org/201...ation-lottery/
Another blog. With a scan of a newspaper clipping that I guess we’re just supposed to believe is legitimate.

Quote:
I’ve provided enough cites there that agree with each other and the facts as I extracted them from that “evil conservative blog.”
A blog and then another blog but this time with a photocopy of some smalltown newspaper article that may or may not be real.

Yeah, real slam dunk.

North Carolina has a lot of newspapers.

Why is it that you can’t find a single one of them that covered this historical event in a way that substantiates those two blogs you dredged up from the bowels of the internet?
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Old Today, 07:37 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Translation: I can’t find a single neutral source for this event I’m claiming is a matter of public record, so I’m going to make it your fault for pointing out that I’ve got nothing.


Yes, let’s continue with the charade that you had all these sources to choose from and you just randomly settled on these.

https://nsjonline.com/article/2019/0...y-controversy/

Does not confirm the claim that the Democrats deceived the Republicans.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nort...cation_Lottery

Does not confirm... well, anything


Another blog. With a scan of a newspaper clipping that I guess we’re just supposed to believe is legitimate.


A blog and then another blog but this time with a photocopy of some smalltown newspaper article that may or may not be real.

Yeah, real slam dunk.
Called it! I could find any source and if it makes the Dems look bad you’ll just insinuate it’s made up. I live in reality where the GOP makes scummy moves . . . and so do the Dems.
Quote:
North Carolina has a lot of newspapers.

Why is it that you can’t find a single one of them that covered this historical event in a way that substantiates those two blogs you dredged up from the bowels of the internet?
Hey, you can live in your fantasy world believing that one side is evil and the other is the epitome of virtue; no skin off my back. I really don’t care if you dismiss my sources -which all corroborate the events that occurred. Your contention is that the events detailed in those sources didn’t occur in that way. I’ll wait for your sources that back that contention . . . But I won’t hold my breath because I know what I’ll get: more genetic fallicies and general deflection.
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Old Today, 08:10 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Ah, yes! The old UNIQUELY gambit. Wasn't it Ziggurat who got ten pages of whataboutism (covering multiple decades, if not complete centuries) out of a similar straw man claim? I'm pretty sure it was in defense of Trump, but the argument was "Show that Trump is Uniquely more __________ (evil, incompetent, a liar, whatever...).

It may be a fine point of grammar and vocabulary, but the argument is not that the North Carolina GOP is UNIQUELY scummy, but that the North Carolina GOP is SPECIFICALLY scummy,... in this case. The fact that LaGuardia did similar tricks in NYC or Huey Long in Louisiana has no bearing whatsoever. Was the GOP action in this case scummy? Yes, it was.
I posted a list of quotes where the argument was clearly the GOP as a whole is scummy. Two of them were yours. I'll remind you:

Originally Posted by foolmewunz
Smarmy tactics. The NC GOP, were this a civilized country, would be banned from participation in politics for about five years.

. . .

It's a waste of time to you because you know everything. And it's a waste of time to anyone trying to convert die-hard GOP supporters because they are textbook examples of cognitive dissonance. But to the marginal supporters, it actually works and gets their attention. I think people should continue to point out the hypocrisy and let the voters decide. Giving "other Republicans"(not The Trump, himself) a pass is the worst idea imaginable. You see it as fruitless. I see it as rewarding.


We don't care if they don't care. Less than 1/3 of the country identifies as Republican. It's the other 70% we're reminding, as often as possible, what a bunch of lying weasel scumbag hypocrites they're supporting if they vote for them on their lying promises or if they sweep it under the rug as you're proposing.
Here you are making it clear that the whole GOP is "a bunch of lying weasel scumbag hypocrites," GOP supporters are "textbook examples of cognitive dissonance," and in a civilized country the actions of the NC GOP here would merit a "[ban] from participation in politics for about five years." All in response this one ****** move. So yes, it's pretty clear that you think the GOP is pretty dang bad when it comes to supporting lying weaselly scumbag moves.

It is perfectly germane to therefore ask you: Should the Dems have been banned for the way they passed the lottery bill? Are the dems lying weaselly scumbags? Are Dem supporters examples of cognitive dissonance, especially given their overblown response to this move?
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Old Today, 08:13 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"If I prove you're a hypocrite that means I'm in the right morally, factually correct, and that the problem we were working to solve is no longer a problem" is destroying all levels of political discourse.
Too true .
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Old Today, 08:25 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Called it! I could find any source and if it makes the Dems look bad you’ll just insinuate it’s made up.
If the claim that started this thread were only posted on a democratic lawmakers blog and other left leaning blogs repeated it, would you accept it as an accurate historical fact? I sort of doubt it, and if you did, you'd be a bit too credulous. I don't accept partisan blogs as strong evidence whether or not they confirm my worldview. I find myself regularly searching for corroboration in more established sources when I see a story from somewher like The Root or Mother Jones.

Jonny makes a good point that there are lots of newspapers and other news sources in NC. The state as a whole leans conservative as do many media outlets there. It would be very conspicuous if there were no coverage of this event in a more substantial source. If it happened as the blog detailed, this would be newsworthy and would certainly fit well within the coverage policies of many mainstream NC media outlets.

I'm on board with you that democrats are in no way immune from scummy actions. But I would be a bit surprised by such a large group of them hitting this particular low. That's a significant claim which should require at least the level of evidence you'd personally need to feel you were getting an accurate account of a scummy Republican action, no?
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Old Today, 08:43 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Dude, your whataboutism game is garbage.

And that you thought you could somehow turn anything I’ve said into a demand for “complete substantiation” without anyone noticing just makes me embarrassed for you.
You've impeached every one of my sources as biased and keep asking for more. Yet you have accepted the OP without question. So let me ask the obvious question: why should we believe the OP source? The N&O is a liberal rag and the story had mostly outraged quotes of obviously biased Democratic senators. Indeed, as the story developed, it became apparent that the whole "Remembering 9/11 . . . Republican Style," angle was bogus. Why didn't you call out the OP for that hyperbolic pearl clutching?

So yes, I'm held to a standard of substantiation that you don't apply to anyone else.
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Old Today, 08:48 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You've impeached every one of my sources as biased and keep asking for more.
Actually, a few of the sources didn't even have any information damning of Democrats. Why did you bother with them.

What you don't have so far is a neutral source damning of Democrats. Every neutral source you posted does not support your claim. Don't you find that suspicious?
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Old Today, 08:48 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Why didn't you call out the OP for that hyperbolic pearl clutching?
*Very slowly* Because calling out every example of something is not a pre-requisite for calling out any specific example of it, even if the isn't "unique" no matter how much you want it to be.

OTHER PEOPLE BEING WRONG DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT.

"Hypocrisy" isn't a natural force that balances out like magnetism or thermodynamics.
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Old Today, 09:28 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Very slowly* Because calling out every example of something is not a pre-requisite for calling out any specific example of it, even if the isn't "unique" no matter how much you want it to be.

OTHER PEOPLE BEING WRONG DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT.

"Hypocrisy" isn't a natural force that balances out like magnetism or thermodynamics.


Holding one person to a standard that no one else is subject to is bad argumentation. Pointing that out is fair; it’s a double standard.
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Old Today, 09:48 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Called it! I could find any source and if it makes the Dems look bad you’ll just insinuate it’s made up. I live in reality where the GOP makes scummy moves . . . and so do the Dems.
Yes, but in your reality the threshold for evidence required for you to believe Democrats did something scummy is considerably lower.

Quote:
Hey, you can live in your fantasy world believing that one side is evil and the other is the epitome of virtue; no skin off my back.
Following up a tragic display of poor critical thinking with a lazy strawman doesn't help your case.

Quote:
I really don’t care if you dismiss my sources -which all corroborate the events that occurred. Your contention is that the events detailed in those sources didn’t occur in that way. I’ll wait for your sources that back that contention . . . But I won’t hold my breath because I know what I’ll get: more genetic fallicies and general deflection.
Your "sources" are two right-wing blogs. That you think unsubstantiated claims made in some random blog require refutation is laughable.

And what's sad is that you could only find two.

I can probably find more sources that confirm that existence of Bigfoot.

Meanwhile, this event which you claim is a historical fact somehow went unnoticed by the every media outlet in North Carolina.

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Old Today, 10:07 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You've impeached every one of my sources as biased and keep asking for more.
"Every one of your sources" = Two right-wing blogs.

Quote:
Yet you have accepted the OP without question.
Where have I done that?

Quote:
So let me ask the obvious question: why should we believe the OP source? The N&O is a liberal rag and the story had mostly outraged quotes of obviously biased Democratic senators. Indeed, as the story developed, it became apparent that the whole "Remembering 9/11 . . . Republican Style," angle was bogus. Why didn't you call out the OP for that hyperbolic pearl clutching?
I guess for the same reason that you don't police the forum for every inaccurate claim?

Also, multiple people beat me to it:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12817889

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12818209

Also, the person making the original claim didn't defend it tooth and nail after the clarification was provided.

Also, pointing the finger at someone else's false or misleading claim doesn't excuse you from your own.

Quote:
So yes, I'm held to a standard of substantiation that you don't apply to anyone else.
Well, you're not.

But it wouldn't matter if you were. The substantiation you provided would still be a joke.
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Old Today, 10:17 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Holding one person to a standard that no one else is subject to is bad argumentation. Pointing that out is fair; it’s a double standard.
"Not calling someone out" and "Holding someone to a different standard" are two different things that you are rather disingenuously trying to conflate.

In order for me to be holding other people to a different standard, as you claim I am doing, you would have to provide evidence of me holding other people to a different standard.

It would look something like this:

Other people: I am making a claim. To substantiate this claim, I have provided two biased sources that merely repeat the claim without providing any additional substantiation.

Me: Everything seems to be in order here. I accept your claim as factual.
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Old Today, 10:34 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Actually, a few of the sources didn't even have any information damning of Democrats. Why did you bother with them.

What you don't have so far is a neutral source damning of Democrats. Every neutral source you posted does not support your claim. Don't you find that suspicious?
I'm not looking for sources that damn anyone; I'm looking for sources that outline the bare facts, stripping out the pearl clutching, damnation and emotion, and all the sources are in agreement with those facts. Those facts are very simple.

In the present case: The Republicans held a vote when enough Democrats were out in order to get a bill they wanted passed. (Response in this thread: Boo! Hiss! Scumbags!)

In the lottery case: The Democrats held a vote when enough Republicans were out in order to get a bill they wanted passed. (Response in this thread: You can't prove this happened; this didn't happen! Whataboutism!!!!!1!)

That is literally it. I've given enough citations to support that those bare facts are true.

This thread started as an attempt to smear the GOP as evil. I've quoted the relevant posts that show that. I am not trying to damn any party; I'm only pointing out that if you are going to damn the GOP then you have to damn the whole political system.

My personal opinion is that no party really needs damning. This is the way stuff is done and has been done since the founding of the country. Political shenanigans are simply business as usual and it's stupid to bloviate about how evil the other side is.
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Old Today, 10:40 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
"Not calling someone out" and "Holding someone to a different standard" are two different things that you are rather disingenuously trying to conflate.

In order for me to be holding other people to a different standard, as you claim I am doing, you would have to provide evidence of me holding other people to a different standard.

It would look something like this:

Other people: I am making a claim. To substantiate this claim, I have provided two biased sources that merely repeat the claim without providing any additional substantiation.

Me: Everything seems to be in order here. I accept your claim as factual.
Ah, so you are saying you don't accept the OP as factual and don't consider the GOP to be evil because of this incident? Cool then, my mistake.
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Old Today, 10:41 AM   #184
xjx388
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
If the claim that started this thread were only posted on a democratic lawmakers blog and other left leaning blogs repeated it, would you accept it as an accurate historical fact? I sort of doubt it, and if you did, you'd be a bit too credulous. I don't accept partisan blogs as strong evidence whether or not they confirm my worldview. I find myself regularly searching for corroboration in more established sources when I see a story from somewher like The Root or Mother Jones.

Jonny makes a good point that there are lots of newspapers and other news sources in NC. The state as a whole leans conservative as do many media outlets there. It would be very conspicuous if there were no coverage of this event in a more substantial source. If it happened as the blog detailed, this would be newsworthy and would certainly fit well within the coverage policies of many mainstream NC media outlets.

I'm on board with you that democrats are in no way immune from scummy actions. But I would be a bit surprised by such a large group of them hitting this particular low. That's a significant claim which should require at least the level of evidence you'd personally need to feel you were getting an accurate account of a scummy Republican action, no?
Well, I'm not from NC, I have no reason to doubt the basic facts of the lottery bill passage I've already found from my sources and I have no desire to pay for access and dig through archives of NC newspapers from 15 years ago to find an account that would be more acceptable.

And I've already said that I don't feel that the OP gave us an accurate account of what happened here. But taking the emotion out of the story, the basic facts seem to be correct: The Republicans held a vote where there were many Dems missing in order to get a bill passed. I think that was a ****** move. Just as I think the basic facts have been substantiated with the lottery bill: The Democrats held a vote when 2 Republicans were out because they knew they could pass it at that time. That was a ****** move too.
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Old Today, 11:08 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Holding one person to a standard that no one else is subject to is bad argumentation. Pointing that out is fair; it’s a double standard.
Call your whataboutism whatever you want, it is what it is.
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Old Today, 11:21 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I'm not looking for sources that damn anyone; I'm looking for sources that outline the bare facts, stripping out the pearl clutching, damnation and emotion, and all the sources are in agreement with those facts. Those facts are very simple.

Please don't lie to me: You were specifically looking for sources that damn Democrats in showing they were involved in unethical behavior. That's precisely your intention. Why must you lie? Let me be clear: I'm OK with you doing that. I'm aware of unethical actions by Democrats, believe me. I just don't appreciate you lying about it.

You're also lying about finding sources that outline bare facts: You haven't found any reliable sources: Only biased blogs by politicians with an agenda. Absolutely no third party newspapers have been presented to support your case.

Note: You know that other thread? The one about Kavanaugh where you claimed I hadn't thought my position through........And when I presented my position you just ghosted on me? Remember that one? I was trying to be civil and saying I didn't categorize you in with the gaslighting Trump apologists, but your behavior here (particularly the lying) makes me question my earlier judgment.

Quote:
In the present case: The Republicans held a vote when enough Democrats were out in order to get a bill they wanted passed. (Response in this thread: Boo! Hiss! Scumbags!)

In the lottery case: The Democrats held a vote when enough Republicans were out in order to get a bill they wanted passed. (Response in this thread: You can't prove this happened; this didn't happen! Whataboutism!!!!!1!)

That is literally it. I've given enough citations to support that those bare facts are true.
No, you have not. The News and Observer is the main paper in Raleigh, the capitol of NC. Surely there ought to be a reference there. What you did was take the word of a NC GOP legislator, a person we have every reason to believe is agenda driven and biased:

Let me tell you one thing: You keep complaining that the GOP is being smeared as uniquely corrupt. I actually believe the Trump era GOP IS uniquely corrupt. There are so many GOP politicians spreading lies (such as Birtherism, Hillary murdered people in Benghazi, millions of illegals vote regularly and repeatedly, and climate change is a socialist hoax, for but a few examples) that I am now laying the gauntlet down: Find me comparable examples of such repeated, widespread, and dangerous rhetorical lies coming from the Democrats on a regular basis.

You know what, on this issue I don't think YOU have really thought your position through. I backed my position up in the other thread and you ran away. Can you respond so well now that I've challenged you?.

Quote:
This thread started as an attempt to smear the GOP as evil. I've quoted the relevant posts that show that. I am not trying to damn any party; I'm only pointing out that if you are going to damn the GOP then you have to damn the whole political system.

My personal opinion is that no party really needs damning. This is the way stuff is done and has been done since the founding of the country. Political shenanigans are simply business as usual and it's stupid to bloviate about how evil the other side is.

I think the problem is you're clinging to an idea of what the GOP used to be and is now corrupted beyond all recognition.

Wake up to that truth already.
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Old Today, 11:24 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Well, I'm not from NC

Oh really now?

I was living in North Carolina at the time and I don't recall hearing anything about your claim. The GOP lied about Benghazi and many other things; why the hell should I believe them (or you) now? Sources aren't created equally. You wouldn't accept a cite from Alex Jones (at least I don't think you would) for example. Why should I accept a story that you have been incapable of finding third party neutral support for?
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Old Today, 12:35 PM   #188
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Oh, and xjx388, regarding the gauntlet (should you choose to accept it): Trump's lawyers have just argued that the president can not even be criminally investigated.

I invite you to find me of an example of Democrats doing such a thing.

TRUMP ERA REPUBLICANS ARE UNIQUELY BAD.

I invite you xjx388 (and anyone else willing to take up the challenge) to prove me wrong. I'm tired of the Trumpists here strawmanning me by saying my arguments claimed that Trump or the GOP were uniquely bad. I wasn't claiming that then, but if you're gonna force it on me, sure, I'll own it: I claim it now.

Now put up or shut up.
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Old Today, 01:20 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Please don't lie to me: You were specifically looking for sources that damn Democrats in showing they were involved in unethical behavior. That's precisely your intention. Why must you lie? Let me be clear: I'm OK with you doing that. I'm aware of unethical actions by Democrats, believe me. I just don't appreciate you lying about it.
Lying? No, that's just well-poisoning.

I concede the possibility that the NC Lottery passed in a manner totally inconsistent with the way my citations made it sound. So let's review the facts as I understand them from those citations:

1)The Democrats did not have enough votes to pass the legislation.
2)2 Senators opposed to the bill took the last day of the session off.
3)This was noted by the President Pro-Tem of the Senate, Marc Baslight and a vote was called.
4)The vote was tied and the tie was broken by the Lt. Gov., Beverly Perdue.

I subscribe to the NYT so I searched their archives. Here is their blurb from their National Briefing feature of August 31, 2005. A quote from the relevant section:


Quote:
NORTH CAROLINA: LOTTERY BILL PASSES The state is on track to cease being the last on the East Coast without a lottery. A lottery bill appeared defeated last week, when the Democratic supporters in the Senate failed to persuade 5 Democrats and 21 Republicans to switch their votes in favor of the measure. But with two lottery opponents absent, the lieutenant governor, Beverly Eaves Perdue, a Democrat, broke a tie vote. Gov. Michael F. Easley, a Democrat, is expected to sign the measure. Proceeds of the lottery will go to education. (AP)
That corroborates 1, 2 and 4 for sure. That's enough for me to connect the dots in my citations and conclude that they had the basic facts right.

For your edification, here's a link to a contemporary news report that corroborates 3.

https://www.wral.com/news/local/video/1091054/

Quote:
You're also lying about finding sources that outline bare facts: You haven't found any reliable sources: Only biased blogs by politicians with an agenda. Absolutely no third party newspapers have been presented to support your case.
Ready to say, "OK, you had the basic facts right," yet?

Quote:
Note: You know that other thread? The one about Kavanaugh where you claimed I hadn't thought my position through........And when I presented my position you just ghosted on me? Remember that one? I was trying to be civil and saying I didn't categorize you in with the gaslighting Trump apologists, but your behavior here (particularly the lying) makes me question my earlier judgment.
I'm sure I'll get over it.



Quote:
No, you have not. The News and Observer is the main paper in Raleigh, the capitol of NC. Surely there ought to be a reference there. What you did was take the word of a NC GOP legislator, a person we have every reason to believe is agenda driven and biased:
I need a subscription to search their archives. Ain't happening. These were events 15 years ago. I'll also note that I posted a link to the North Journal, a state-wide newspaper comparing the two events which you dismissed earlier.

Quote:
Let me tell you one thing: You keep complaining that the GOP is being smeared as uniquely corrupt. I actually believe the Trump era GOP IS uniquely corrupt. There are so many GOP politicians spreading lies (such as Birtherism, Hillary murdered people in Benghazi, millions of illegals vote regularly and repeatedly, and climate change is a socialist hoax, for but a few examples) that I am now laying the gauntlet down: Find me comparable examples of such repeated, widespread, and dangerous rhetorical lies coming from the Democrats on a regular basis.
Talk about unsourced claims! I'll need you to hunt down (in another thread obviously, where you will presumably make a case that the modern GOP is uniquely corrupt) unbiased sources for each of the charges you laid out above.

Quote:
You know what, on this issue I don't think YOU have really thought your position through. I backed my position up in the other thread and you ran away. Can you respond so well now that I've challenged you?.
One thread at a time. I have thought my position through very well: Our political system as a whole is corrupt and that includes both parties.

Quote:
I think the problem is you're clinging to an idea of what the GOP used to be and is now corrupted beyond all recognition.

Wake up to that truth already.
I have no such illusions. But it seems you do.
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Old Today, 01:43 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Ah, so you are saying you don't accept the OP as factual and don't consider the GOP to be evil because of this incident? Cool then, my mistake.
I'm saying I didn't just accept the OP at face value.

I waited for - and this might be a foreign concept to you - corroborating evidence before making a judgement.
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Old Today, 01:45 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
TRUMP ERA REPUBLICANS ARE UNIQUELY BAD.
Here's how we know this to be true: Because of the extraordinary lengths conservatives on this forum are going to convince us otherwise.
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Old Today, 01:57 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Here's how we know this to be true: Because of the extraordinary lengths conservatives on this forum are going to convince us otherwise.
Here's how we know this to be false: Because of the extraordinary lengths progressives on this forum are going to convince us otherwise.
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Old Today, 02:13 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I'm saying I didn't just accept the OP at face value.

I waited for - and this might be a foreign concept to you - corroborating evidence before making a judgement.
And did you get the corroborating evidence? Because the OP has been pretty well debunked -9/11 had nothing to do with anything, just good ol' political chicanery.*





*I had a professor who told me once that I wasn't supposed to use that word because I'm Chicano and "chicanery" derived from Chicano or vice versa . . . random BS I was told growing up on the Mexican border.
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Old Today, 02:28 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post

1)The Democrats did not have enough votes to pass the legislation.
2)2 Senators opposed to the bill took the last day of the session off.
3)This was noted by the President Pro-Tem of the Senate, Marc Baslight and a vote was called.
4)The vote was tied and the tie was broken by the Lt. Gov., Beverly Perdue.
I'm heading out for the night so it's unlikely I'll post more in the near future, but I can't let this slip past. I'll admit I only half read your claim for the NC lottery. If it boils down to 1-4.......that's it??? Seriously? How the hell is that analogous? I don't even see a claim that senators were lied to about taking/not taking a vote. You do realize the claim of a lie was the primary issue, right?

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Talk about unsourced claims! I'll need you to hunt down (in another thread obviously, where you will presumably make a case that the modern GOP is uniquely corrupt) unbiased sources for each of the charges you laid out above.

No. HELL NO!. If you're not aware by now that each and every one of my claims (Birtherism, Benghazi, illegals voting, and climate change) are true (we've only been literally surrounded by such claims for years now) then you don't even pay enough attention to handle a legitimate debate with a ferret. You are either worthlessly ignorant or worthlessly disingenuous. I take you as seriously as I would someone who asked for a cite for the Apollo 11 mission.

Good Day!
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Old Today, 02:37 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Lying? No, that's just well-poisoning.

Oh, and you're still lying, I see. I know damn well it was your intention to find unethical Democratic behavior to contrast with the OP. That's obvious, man.

Now, doing that is perfectly OK. Lying about it is not.

It's a damn shame I can no longer found Trump apologists and GOP supporters capable of engaging in debate honestly.
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Old Today, 03:14 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Here's how we know this to be true: Because of the extraordinary lengths conservatives on this forum are going to convince us otherwise.
Back in the Bush days conservatives would at least occasionally try to make actual arguments in favor of their elected officials and candidates. I rarely agreed with them, but they were actual arguments put for that were in favor of them.

Now? We've got plenty of excuses. Plenty of distractions. Plenty of admitted full on trolling. It's been a long time since we had anything else.
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