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Old 29th June 2019, 04:28 PM   #161
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Why would it take any more time or effort to get it right?
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Old 29th June 2019, 04:31 PM   #162
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Half an hour for research, no effort at all in the production. Stuff like that breaks the willing suspension of disbelief for me. Like Indiana Jones climbing onto the submerging submarine.
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Old 29th June 2019, 08:17 PM   #163
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Let's remember that this is from the director that though the Tudor Rose was an actual rose!
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Old 30th June 2019, 10:57 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Real howler" implies some sort of egregious mistake. Using stock models or reproductions that don't exactly match minor details isn't such a mistake.

Just to add to the other responses above, first, the mast structure, main armament, and hull form of a battleship are not "minor details." The tail-gunner position on the B-25Bs is arguably a minor detail, as is the Zeros' wasting scarce cannon ammunition on soft targets (plus that one could potentially be excused by the Rule of Cool).

Second, when I was taking anthropology many years ago, the professor said that when he and a colleague had first seen Quest for Fire, they'd laughed themselves silly because they'd assumed that it was supposed to be some sort of parody of life in the era depicted. They were rather nonplussed to learn that it was supposed to be a serious film. Yet QfF currently has an 84% rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Were they not allowed to laugh at the absurdities they noticed?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nothing in the story depends on getting the look of the ships exactly, historically right. As long as it's close enough to evoke the desired experience in the majority of the audience, it's close enough.

If I were making a film, I'd certainly want to evoke "the desired experience" in much more than just a simple majority of the audience, so I find your statement a bit perplexing.
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Old 1st July 2019, 01:45 PM   #165
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Apparently the people who make movies don't agree. Or else, movie characters would say 'bye when ending phone calls, and movie computers wouldn't beep for every character typed or display "MATCH NOT FOUND" in giant red letters inside a giant red box in the center of the screen after every unsuccessful database search. And computers and phones are things most people in the audience have actually used themselves.
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Old 1st July 2019, 04:10 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Apparently the people who make movies don't agree. Or else, movie characters would say 'bye when ending phone calls, and movie computers wouldn't beep for every character typed or display "MATCH NOT FOUND" in giant red letters inside a giant red box in the center of the screen after every unsuccessful database search. And computers and phones are things most people in the audience have actually used themselves.
When I worked at Boeing, mostly on the 747, my wife bought me Air Force One. Oh, gawd, that was excruciating to watch. Probably even more for her than for me.
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Old 1st July 2019, 10:41 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
When I worked at Boeing, mostly on the 747, my wife bought me Air Force One. Oh, gawd, that was excruciating to watch. Probably even more for her than for me.
There would not be many action films, not based on actual events, that would be anything close to realistic. Even ones that are based on real events frequently have differences between the movie and what happened. Just read earlier posts for an example.
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Old 4th July 2019, 09:48 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
We haven't mentioned Russian Aircraft Carriers yet.
This.

The Admiral Kuznetsov is a dud. I love how the Royal Navy trolls the ship by shadowing it in case it breaks down and needs a tow.

https://taskandpurpose.com/russia-sc...rcraft-carrier
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Old 4th July 2019, 10:02 PM   #169
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I just finished a book about the Bismark, and it's interesting how technology can change so fast that the ship was already a dinosaur before it put to sea, but nobody knew it yet. This is underlined by the Royal Navy sending the HMS Prince of Wales to the Pacific where it met the same fate as Bismark.

Not that battleships didn't have their place. As already stated they were superb in coastal bombardment in all of the allied invasions, and also later in Korea, and Vietnam (Desert Storm was just for nostalgia IMO). Battleships became second string to submarines, and aircraft carriers.

Today the thinking is that aircraft carriers are in the position battleships were in back in 1941 and they may be right. It's possible we'll see the return of pocket carriers in the future where more, smaller vessels give the fleet more flexibility.

We could always try that whole Peace on Earth thing, but where's the fun in that?
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Old 5th July 2019, 02:21 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
This.

The Admiral Kuznetsov is a dud. I love how the Royal Navy trolls the ship by shadowing it in case it breaks down and needs a tow.

https://taskandpurpose.com/russia-sc...rcraft-carrier
They shadow every Russian ship that passages.
That's what we were doing in the 80s off Iceland when we had a 'run in' with a Russian Destroyer.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:11 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It won't have Charlton Heston in it, so that alone makes it better than the previous effort.

Since USS Arkansas has been mentioned, I'll bring up both the Wyoming and New York classes, which were not great when they were new and astoundingly obsolete during WWII. Arkansas was the absolute worst battleship retained by any of the great powers under the treaties. At least her sister Wyoming did good service as a training ship during the war.

I like Charleton Heston as an actor though I strongly disagredd with his politics.
Hating on a actor because you don't like his politics is wrong;the people who still rant about "Hanoi Jane" are just as stupid as those who still hate John Wayne as a "warmonger".
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:13 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I just finished a book about the Bismark, and it's interesting how technology can change so fast that the ship was already a dinosaur before it put to sea, but nobody knew it yet. This is underlined by the Royal Navy sending the HMS Prince of Wales to the Pacific where it met the same fate as Bismark.

Not that battleships didn't have their place. As already stated they were superb in coastal bombardment in all of the allied invasions, and also later in Korea, and Vietnam (Desert Storm was just for nostalgia IMO). Battleships became second string to submarines, and aircraft carriers.

Today the thinking is that aircraft carriers are in the position battleships were in back in 1941 and they may be right. It's possible we'll see the return of pocket carriers in the future where more, smaller vessels give the fleet more flexibility.

We could always try that whole Peace on Earth thing, but where's the fun in that?
You have to wonder if the money wasted on the Zumwalt could have been better spent just refurbishing one of the Iowa class Battleships.
Interesting fact" Thought they are now Museums they are maintained to be seaworthy in an emergency.
Shore Bombarment has it's place;big guns can still do things that air power cannot do. But no doubt the Zumwalt was a total fiasco.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:14 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why would it take any more time or effort to get it right?
Because Hollywood thinks getting it wrong will be better at the box office.....
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:16 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
When I worked at Boeing, mostly on the 747, my wife bought me Air Force One. Oh, gawd, that was excruciating to watch. Probably even more for her than for me.
ANybody who has experience with black powder muzzle loading muskets laughed at the way Mel Gibson used them in "The Patriot" Anybody trying to fire two at one time would end up flat on his butt.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:40 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
ANybody who has experience with black powder muzzle loading muskets laughed at the way Mel Gibson used them in "The Patriot" Anybody trying to fire two at one time would end up flat on his butt.
Hmm, I mean the movie is laughably bad in a number of ways, but I've fired some black powder (well Pyrodex actually) muzzle loaders and don't recall the recoil being all that bad. Not as bad as a 98k for example. Although if you didn't have the stock up against your body somehow they'd go flying.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You have to wonder if the money wasted on the Zumwalt could have been better spent just refurbishing one of the Iowa class Battleships.
Interesting fact" Thought they are now Museums they are maintained to be seaworthy in an emergency.
Shore Bombarment has it's place;big guns can still do things that air power cannot do. But no doubt the Zumwalt was a total fiasco.
Seaworthy as in able to float? Yes. But, it would take major work to get them steaming under their own power. Let alone get all the electronics working. Your talking moving parts that haven't moved in decades. Missouri couldn't even make it to Pearl Harbor under her own power 25 years ago. I think I saw somewhere that one of her prop shafts is gone. The part in the movie "Battleship" where they get Missouri under power was eye roll inducing, even though I knew what sort of movie I was watching and kinda expected it.

But anyways, money better spent? Yeah probably, its just the cost of crewing and operating them is so huge. But, their 16" gun fire a 2,700lb shell much much more cheaply than a Tomahawk missile which only has a 1000 lb warhead. Compare that to the Zumwalts 155mm gun that was to fire a shell of roughly 100lbs*. And only 40% cheaper than a Tomahawk missile. And there is no way it would be anything like as accurate as a guided missile at beyond horizon ranges.

*I can't find the specs so I'm using about what WW2 era 6" (155mm) guns fired. I see total weight of 225lbs but that includes the propellant and casing.

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Old 11th July 2019, 04:19 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You have to wonder if the money wasted on the Zumwalt could have been better spent just refurbishing one of the Iowa class Battleships.
Interesting fact" Thought they are now Museums they are maintained to be seaworthy in an emergency.
Shore Bombarment has it's place;big guns can still do things that air power cannot do. But no doubt the Zumwalt was a total fiasco.
Bollocks. there is no way one of those old battleships could put to sea under it's own power and operate as a warship without spending many months in drydock and having the boilers and turbines rebuilt.

That's before we get on to other systems.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:20 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Hmm, I mean the movie is laughably bad in a number of ways, but I've fired some black powder (well Pyrodex actually) muzzle loaders and don't recall the recoil being all that bad. Not as bad as a 98k for example. Although if you didn't have the stock up against your body somehow they'd go flying.
With Revolutionary War weapons, its not the recoil, its the sheer weight. A Brown Bess Musket weighs 13 pounds* and is 5 ft long. Taking one in each arm and trying to aim and fire them is a strain for even hard core body builder.

Mind you, Daniel Day Lewis did this in the climax of Last of the Mohicans well before Gibson did it in The Patriot.

* Pennsylvania or Kentucky Rifles were lighter but often longer and so just about as awkward, not to mention much harder to reload. About the only era's non-pistol weapon you might have a chance of doing this with would be a Jeager Rifle.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:47 PM   #178
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The thing about the battleships being kept usable was true the first time they were retired. And they were even brought back into service after that, then retired again. But even that was a long time ago.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:50 PM   #179
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They had many millions spent on them and many months in drydock the first time.
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Old 12th July 2019, 02:02 PM   #180
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I seem to recall the Navy had a difficult time finding qualified people to run the boilers the last time they were reactivated
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Old 12th July 2019, 02:07 PM   #181
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You could probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of engineers with steam tickets these days.
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Old 12th July 2019, 02:40 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You could probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of engineers with steam tickets these days.
Or sources of spares. The aspiration was that they could be reactivated if needed. The realities are a tad different.
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Old 12th July 2019, 03:05 PM   #183
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My dad died 18 months ago, I think he was probably the most experienced 'steam ticket' man left in the world. He started his career on the engine shed at Skinningrove Steelworks as an apprentice or railway locomotives. He worked on P&O 'up and downers'. Ex 'Liberty Ships' in cargo service, worked through turbines aboard Liners and then a Chief Engineer aboard supertankers in the late 60s and 70s. His later years were all diesel but he 'kept his hand in' aboard an ex WW2 'Admiralty Armed trawler' preserved as a museum ship.
Last RN steam ships in service were the Leander class Frigates, last one decommissioned in the mid 90s
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Old 12th July 2019, 03:24 PM   #184
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It would probably be cheaper and faster to build three more Burkes, than refit one Iowa.

Not even counting the knock on effects of the Burkes already having established training and maintenance pipelines.

And if you need more shore bombardment for some reason, talk to the Air Force. F-15Es, B-1Bs, and F-35As in "beast mode" are going to be far more effective than BB guns. Plus being useful for all kinds of other fire missions as well.

Plus also having established training and supply pipelines.

The "but muh battleships are still relevant!11!" meme really needs to die in a fire.
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Old 12th July 2019, 06:20 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You could probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of engineers with steam tickets these days.
Well, of course ALL of the US Navy's nuclear powered vessels are technically steam ships! Probably takes a different "ticket".

I'd guess the last of the Navy's conventional steam powered ships was USS Camden, of the Sacramento class. Those ships each had half the propulsion system from an Iowa battleship, specifically the never-completed USS Kentucky.
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Old 13th July 2019, 11:09 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Well, of course ALL of the US Navy's nuclear powered vessels are technically steam ships! Probably takes a different "ticket".

I'd guess the last of the Navy's conventional steam powered ships was USS Camden, of the Sacramento class. Those ships each had half the propulsion system from an Iowa battleship, specifically the never-completed USS Kentucky.
Blue Ridge and Mount Whitney are still going, and will be for twenty years. No Boiler Tech's any more though.
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Old 13th July 2019, 11:46 AM   #187
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Cool, thanks for that!

How about SMS Blucher? Not a terrible ship per se, but conceived as what the Germans thought would be an answer to the British Battle Cruisers then building. She wasn't. The Germans then compounded the mistake by assigning her to their battle cruiser squadron despite being too slow, lightly armed, and lightly armored, resulting in the deaths of more than 700 men at Dogger Bank.
Her WWII namesake didn't fare well either, being sunk by land-based Norwegian torpedoes during the German invasion.
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Old 13th July 2019, 06:10 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It would probably be cheaper and faster to build three more Burkes, than refit one Iowa.

Not even counting the knock on effects of the Burkes already having established training and maintenance pipelines.

And if you need more shore bombardment for some reason, talk to the Air Force. F-15Es, B-1Bs, and F-35As in "beast mode" are going to be far more effective than BB guns. Plus being useful for all kinds of other fire missions as well.

Plus also having established training and supply pipelines.

The "but muh battleships are still relevant!11!" meme really needs to die in a fire.
Not arguing that battleships need to come back, but artillery support has its place in modern warfare. Our air-power is breath-taking, and they can put iron bombs through your bathroom window all day, but we only have so many aircraft that can drop only so many bombs. Factor in fuel and re-arming time there are many cases where troops on the ground have to dig in and wait for the next strike. New sea-launched ground-to-ground missiles should be developed to fill in that gap. Cruise missiles are great, but vulnerable.

Of course we could always try peace, but where's the fun in that?
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Old 14th July 2019, 05:08 AM   #189
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Artillery support is best given by artillery.

Why would you want to tie up thousands of crew aboard a battleship to serve a few guns giving artillery support?

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Old 14th July 2019, 09:58 AM   #190
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Nobody is building heavy coastal defenses within naval artillery range anymore. Certainly not on any beach pivotal to any foreseeable war.
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Old 14th July 2019, 10:57 AM   #191
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Fire support doesn't need to be against coastal fortifications.
Battleships were giving fire support right in to August off the Normandy beaches.

HMS Rodney for example had a range of 39,780 yards

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Old 14th July 2019, 11:09 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Artillery support is best given by artillery.

Why would you want to tie up thousands of crew aboard a battleship to serve a few guns giving artillery support?
And very large ones at that. To my way of thinking, a large number of smaller ones would be more effective. Those 16 inchers can, of course, let the ship be out of reach of the enemy shore batteries. Of which none exist.
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Old 14th July 2019, 04:30 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Through no fault of the design, the Yamato and its fellow Yamato Class battleships have to be considered.

The Japanese had already taught the world that big gun naval warfare was going to be a thing of the past, but rather than use the two yuge battleships to possibly sucker the Americans in when they still had sufficient naval power (they being the IJN), they kept them safely away until their fates were fairly well sealed when the USN had submarine and carrier dominance. The Musashi went down during Leyte Gulf, when it was still the flagship of the fleet, I believe. And the inglorious and stupid end to the Yamato at Okinawa is the stuff of legend.

The one time the Yamato got into the shooting war it was very effective against smaller ships but didn't meet up with the USN battleships, and certainly no carriers! Both of the ships of the class were allergic to carriers. The anti-aircraft batteries were less effective than designed. And no one's immune to torpedoes, which is what took out the Musashi.

So design-wise, probably good ships but we don't have enough data. But when it comes to mismanagement by naval command, absolute boondoggles.
Yeah, but once it was converted for spaceflight, it really came into it's own.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Battleship_Yamato
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Old 14th July 2019, 04:35 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Artillery support is best given by artillery.

Why would you want to tie up thousands of crew aboard a battleship to serve a few guns giving artillery support?
Completely tooting my own Reg't's horn here, but this. Modern 155mm howitzers reach out 40km. And drop their rounds in a area the size of a football field. And at 24km within 5-10m and a lethal radius of 50m....
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Old 14th July 2019, 05:11 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Completely tooting my own Reg't's horn here, but this. Modern 155mm howitzers reach out 40km. And drop their rounds in a area the size of a football field. And at 24km within 5-10m and a lethal radius of 50m....
Modern 155mm naval guns, on the other hand, are entirely useless.
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Old 14th July 2019, 05:37 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Through no fault of the design, the Yamato and its fellow Yamato Class battleships have to be considered.

The Japanese had already taught the world that big gun naval warfare was going to be a thing of the past, but rather than use the two yuge battleships to possibly sucker the Americans in when they still had sufficient naval power (they being the IJN), they kept them safely away until their fates were fairly well sealed when the USN had submarine and carrier dominance. The Musashi went down during Leyte Gulf, when it was still the flagship of the fleet, I believe. And the inglorious and stupid end to the Yamato at Okinawa is the stuff of legend.

The one time the Yamato got into the shooting war it was very effective against smaller ships but didn't meet up with the USN battleships, and certainly no carriers! Both of the ships of the class were allergic to carriers. The anti-aircraft batteries were less effective than designed. And no one's immune to torpedoes, which is what took out the Musashi.

So design-wise, probably good ships but we don't have enough data. But when it comes to mismanagement by naval command, absolute boondoggles.
My bold. I had to reach back for this as it was just quoted by someone else.

The ONLY time Yamato saw surface action was the Battle Off Samar, against six thin-skinned escort carriers and a similar number of escorting DD's and DE's. The former, of course, had 150 aircraft at their disposal and 250 more from their sisters to the south. The latter had torpedoes. Yamato turned tail and ran away.
To be fair to him, Admiral Kurita had had a very bad 48 hours, having had to swim for it when his flagship was torpedoed out from under him; and seeing Musashi sunk later that day.
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Old 14th July 2019, 08:58 PM   #197
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The Musashi had been attacked by standard methods and it was noted they didn't hurt it as much as other ships. By the time the Yamato went out the last time the USN had a plan. Take firepower off the decks and then only torpedoes to the starboard. And lots of them. Dive bombers pulled up later and only had the biggest bombs, they knew she was tough.

I would guess the Americans were not quite sure just what it would take to sink the Yamato. Not a bad ship per se but outside of operating budget by late war and desperately needing air cover.
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Old 15th July 2019, 08:10 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Modern 155mm naval guns, on the other hand, are entirely useless.
A claim not supported by the link.
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Old 15th July 2019, 11:01 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A claim not supported by the link.
True, there are about 90 rounds available and no plans to make any more, due to the cost.

ETA: For clarity, I'm talking about the 155mm LRAP round for the Zumwalt class
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Old 15th July 2019, 11:38 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Modern 155mm naval guns, on the other hand, are entirely useless.
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
True, there are about 90 rounds available and no plans to make any more, due to the cost.
Blip krieg -- a mainstay of American armaments ever since the fifties.

Consider, for example, the M-28 Davy Crockett Weapons System, which fired a nuclear weapon with a blast radius sufficient to engulf the firers.

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