Deja vu: Convicted "spy" poisoned in UK

[Darat]

The daughter has spoken to the media



Russian spy poisoning: Yulia Skripal hopes to return to Russia - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44230380

[Information Analyst]

Originally Posted by Darat

The daughter has spoken to the media

Russian spy poisoning: Yulia Skripal hopes to return to Russia - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44230380

And, typically, Russia continues to bluster that she is being "held," and that her statement was prepared by someone else.

I wonder if Putin genuinely writes his own speeches...?

[Information Analyst]

BBC News: Two collapse near Russian spy poisoning site

"A man and woman are in a critical condition after being exposed to an unknown substance, which counter terrorism officers are investigating.

The pair, believed to be Charlie Rowley, 45, and Dawn Sturgess, 44, were found unconscious at a house in Amesbury, Wiltshire, on Saturday.

It is understood tests are being carried out on the substance at a government chemical weapons laboratory.

Amesbury is about eight miles from the Salisbury Russian spy poisoning site.

Former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia were poisoned with Novichok, a suspected military nerve agent, in March."

I'd put good money on the house being where the Skripals' would-be assassins were based.

[Captain_Swoop]

Ot it is something else entirely and people are jumping at shadows.

[P.J. Denyer]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Ot it is something else entirely and people are jumping at shadows.

It's right outside a Greggs. If there's also a Witherspoons nearby I may have a theory....

[Meridian]

The same nerve agent as the Skripals, apparently:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44719639.

[Mikemcc]

Another couple suffering from the same thing now:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44719639

The amount of information is very limited at the moment. My guess is that they have handled something related to the previous case. Possibly means that there are other contaminated items out there.

ETA: Sorry, I didn't see the three previous posts when I looked up the thread on the search function!

[The Don]

Mrs Don suggested that Russia could have done this deliberately, picking people with no possible link, so as to show that it wasn't them behind the original attack

[Worm]

I had a similar thought to be honest.

[zooterkin]

The current theory seems to be it was some residue left carelessly by the poisoners that was not in any place that was cleaned up, and these two happened to come into contact with it.

I did catch part of an interview with an American reporter (I think) a few days ago who was suggesting it was nothing to do with the Russian state, but the Russian Mafia who were trying to stop Skripal from talking. (Then again, where is the dividing line between the Russian state and the Russian Mafia?)

[Captain_Swoop]

Fave theory on Twitter is that it is Porton Down doing it. Some say it is some kind of 'plot' by the govt to discredit Russia for political reasons so they got Porton Down to release the nerve agent. Others that it is some deeper plot than the Govt and then ascribe whatever thair favourite conspiracy of the moment is to it.

[Information Analyst]

Originally Posted by The Don

Mrs Don suggested that Russia could have done this deliberately, picking people with no possible link, so as to show that it wasn't them behind the original attack

Horribly plausible.

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

The current theory seems to be it was some residue left carelessly by the poisoners that was not in any place that was cleaned up, and these two happened to come into contact with it.

If there had been something like a spray container with some of the mixture still inside it, I could believe that. But simply a contaminated item? How long does this chemical persist, when exposed to the elements? Surely not that long. And it's difficult to believe this contaminated item has been in some kind of limbo, handled by absolutely no one since the attack on the Skripals, until yesterday.

[Hellbound]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

If there had been something like a spray container with some of the mixture still inside it, I could believe that. But simply a contaminated item? How long does this chemical persist, when exposed to the elements? Surely not that long. And it's difficult to believe this contaminated item has been in some kind of limbo, handled by absolutely no one since the attack on the Skripals, until yesterday.

It does seem a bit suspect, but not necessarily for the length of time.

Nerve Agents are classed as persistent or non-persistent. Non-persistent are used to cause immediate casualties and remove troops: more of an offensive weapon. They're highly volatile and evaporate quickly so forces can move in to the area in as little as a day without fear of the agent (depends on the specific agent formulation, could be anywhere form almost immediate to a week or so).

Persistent nerve agents, on the other hand, are an area denial system. They are usually slower acting and require longer exposure, but they hang around for quite some time.

An interesting thing to think about, most consumer insecticides use variants of nerve agents...and think about how many of those give the "keeps killing for months!" claim. Those are persistent nerve agents.

Given the time between the suspected exposure and unconsciousness in the original case, I'd suspect this is a persistent agent.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Hellbound

It does seem a bit suspect, but not necessarily for the length of time.

Nerve Agents are classed as persistent or non-persistent. Non-persistent are used to cause immediate casualties and remove troops: more of an offensive weapon. They're highly volatile and evaporate quickly so forces can move in to the area in as little as a day without fear of the agent (depends on the specific agent formulation, could be anywhere form almost immediate to a week or so).

Persistent nerve agents, on the other hand, are an area denial system. They are usually slower acting and require longer exposure, but they hang around for quite some time.

An interesting thing to think about, most consumer insecticides use variants of nerve agents...and think about how many of those give the "keeps killing for months!" claim. Those are persistent nerve agents.

Given the time between the suspected exposure and unconsciousness in the original case, I'd suspect this is a persistent agent.

Weren't some of the Novichok agents solids at room temperature, and dispersed as an aerosol/dust? If so, it makes it easier to believe that some could have been missed and sheltered from water.

[Hellbound]

Originally Posted by jimbob

Weren't some of the Novichok agents solids at room temperature, and dispersed as an aerosol/dust? If so, it makes it easier to believe that some could have been missed and sheltered from water.

That I don't know, but I'd suspect not. Liquid is the most common form for persistent agents, or possibly a gel/paste consistency (might be what they meant by solid); non-persistent tend to be gaseous or fast-evaporating liquids.

That said, I could be wrong, but I don't recall ever hearing about solid agents. Nothing stopping it, I suppose.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Hellbound

That I don't know, but I'd suspect not. Liquid is the most common form for persistent agents, or possibly a gel/paste consistency (might be what they meant by solid); non-persistent tend to be gaseous or fast-evaporating liquids.

That said, I could be wrong, but I don't recall ever hearing about solid agents. Nothing stopping it, I suppose.

Ah - found what I was looking for:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...novichok-agent

Quote:

Forms
Novichok agents may be dispersed as an ultra-fine powder as opposed to a gas or a vapour.

Identifying characteristics
Novichok agents may consist of two separate ‘non-toxic’ components that, when mixed, become the active nerve agent. No further information is available.

[Hellbound]

Interesting, I don't recall a powder-type before, but it has been a while

With that, I'd be willing to bet it's a persistent agent.

[zooterkin]

They've been a bit circumspect in the reports on the news, but it sounds like the latest two found a container which had held the nerve agent.

[Captain_Swoop]

Apparently it is UK Govt plot to disrupt the World Cup because it is such good publicity for Russia and to distract attention from Brexit.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

They've been a bit circumspect in the reports on the news, but it sounds like the latest two found a container which had held the nerve agent.

Yes, the police "confirmed on Thursday that the pair had been exposed to Novichok when handling a contaminated item, but they have not revealed what it was." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44721558

The implication there is that the police know what the contaminated item is, which is something of a relief if that's correct.

[Darat]

I see that the England football team have announced a change to their strip for Saturday's match.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Darat

I see that the England football team have announced a change to their strip for Saturday's match.

Wrong colour Darat, that's Sweden's strip

[Azrael 5]

So clumsy assassin leaves his container of left over Novichok lying around and it stays potent for all this time and ,whats more it stays in plain sight and is picked up (why?) by two junkies/tramps.
Totally bizarre

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

So clumsy assassin leaves his container of left over Novichok lying around and it stays potent for all this time and ,whats more it stays in plain sight and is picked up (why?) by two junkies/tramps.
Totally bizarre

Not quite.

We know that Novichoks are binary agents and that some are solid at room temperature (but can be used in gels). We also know that they are highly toxic.

In that case, it would be safest for the assassin to have a some containers of the precursors and only make them up when they were actually ready to attempt the poisoning. The longer they kept the Novichok around in its fully active form, the higher the risk of accidentally poisoning themselves.

If you have a field-kit to make up the poison - maybe disguised as a first aid kit, then you can make it up at the time, apply the poison to the target object and then quickly discard it somewhere where it is unlikely to be found until you have left the country.

If it looks like used drugs paraphernalia (needles and syringes) and you dump it somewhere where there is a lot of such paraphernalia, then even if it is found and kills someone there is quite a chance it would just be treated as an accidental drugs overdose.

It really seems quite straightforward to me

[zooterkin]

Not quite plain sight, according to the Evening Standard, they were dumpster diving.

[Azrael 5]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Not quite plain sight, according to the Evening Standard, they were dumpster diving.

DOnt they empty dumpsters in 4 months then?

[Ambrosia]

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

So clumsy assassin leaves his container of left over Novichok lying around and it stays potent for all this time and ,whats more it stays in plain sight and is picked up (why?) by two junkies/tramps.
Totally bizarre

The two new victims could be described as junkies, tramps no not really.

The bins round these parts are emptied regularly, weekly or fortnitely depending on whether or not it's a commercial or residential bin.

Given what we know, then it's likely that whatever the item was that this pair picked up that contained the nerve agent wasn't in a bin. there's a fair amount of fly tipping that goes on all round the place, most of which remains in situ for a while depending on where exactly it's left, so it's plausible that they could have found a syringe/baggy under a bush in Lizzy Gardens, or something discarded in a hedgerow or woods on one of the many pathways/bridleways and mistaken it for something it wasn't.

The discarded container theory is many times more plausible than other theories doing the rounds.

It wasn't likely to have been in plain sight, as someone else would have picked it up before now.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Ambrosia

The two new victims could be described as junkies, tramps no not really.

The bins round these parts are emptied regularly, weekly or fortnitely depending on whether or not it's a commercial or residential bin.

Given what we know, then it's likely that whatever the item was that this pair picked up that contained the nerve agent wasn't in a bin. there's a fair amount of fly tipping that goes on all round the place, most of which remains in situ for a while depending on where exactly it's left, so it's plausible that they could have found a syringe/baggy under a bush in Lizzy Gardens, or something discarded in a hedgerow or woods on one of the many pathways/bridleways and mistaken it for something it wasn't.

The discarded container theory is many times more plausible than other theories doing the rounds.

It wasn't likely to have been in plain sight, as someone else would have picked it up before now.

Thank you Ambrosia for pointing out with local knowledge, what should have been obvious to anyone who isn't so keen on just asking questions.

But it still seemed to need saying. This is really not that complicated in the general outline of the story.

Russia commissions someone to poison the Skripals (possibly deliberately targeting Yulia as well). Russian agents are given the components of the binary agent and a kit to make it up just before the attack. They use the kit and discard it somewhere where it won't look suspicious and attack the Skripals before escaping - possibly on the next flight to Moscow and before the Skripals even start to show symptoms. A few months later, someone finds the discarded container and thinks it's something else so picks it up without precautions and gets poisoned.

[trustbutverify]

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

So clumsy assassin leaves his container of left over Novichok lying around and it stays potent for all this time and ,whats more it stays in plain sight and is picked up (why?) by two junkies/tramps.
Totally bizarre

Obviously, all part of the frame-up.

[jimbob]

A police officer has been hospitalised with suspected Novichok poisoning

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8436761.html

[ThatGuy11200]

Originally Posted by jimbob

A police officer has been hospitalised with suspected Novichok poisoning

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8436761.html

He's been given the all-clear.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44754562

[Azrael 5]

Dawn Sturgess has died and a murder investigation has begun.

[Aber]

Appears the source of Novichok has been found

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44827666

[jimbob]

Looks as though the bottle has been found

http://news.met.police.uk/news/updat...ntified-314322

[Arcade22]

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

So clumsy assassin leaves his container of left over Novichok lying around and it stays potent for all this time and ,whats more it stays in plain sight and is picked up (why?) by two junkies/tramps.
Totally bizarre

Bizarre? This is the reason the British authorities spent so much effort into decontamination. They knew something like this could happen because of the physical properties of the nerve agent and worked hard to prevent it, but obviously didn't succeed.

An inescapable conclusion of this is that Russia demonstrated complete and utter disregard against the life and well-being of the British public. Just like with in the assassination of Alexander Litvinenko: Instead of choosing a method of assassination that would have minimized the likelihood of "collateral damage" they instead chose one that place other people at very high risk of death.

[Eddie Dane]

I read in the Daily Fail yesterday that the pair picked up a perfume bottle. The woman sprayed the perfume on her wrists. The guy was in contact with the substance, but to a lesser degree than the woman.

The woman died, the guy is slowly recovering. He's conscious again and has been informed of his girlfriends' death. The police hope he'll remember the exact location of the bottle when he has further recovered. He is still in a bad state.

This is from memory. I can't look up the link now. And it was the Daily Mail, so it may have been dreamed up by a news editor on a beach in Thailand after a few lines of coke.

[Giordano]

Originally Posted by Arcade22

Bizarre? This is the reason the British authorities spent so much effort into decontamination. They knew something like this could happen because of the physical properties of the nerve agent and worked hard to prevent it, but obviously didn't succeed.

An inescapable conclusion of this is that Russia demonstrated complete and utter disregard against the life and well-being of the British public. Just like with in the assassination of Alexander Litvinenko: Instead of choosing a method of assassination that would have minimized the likelihood of "collateral damage" they instead chose one that place other people at very high risk of death.

Not being an international assassin I do not know the rules, but it does make sense to me that the poisoner would seek to simply dump the remnants of the poison as quickly and as easily as they could once done with it. They don't want to be accidentally poisoned by it themselves and they don't want to be caught with it either. Drop it in the trash or in some rubble: what do they care, they kill people for a career.

Is my understanding correct that Novichok is a binary nerve agent and is only dangerous after the precursors are mixed? If so then I can understand even better the assassin being willing to carry it around before mixing, but then seeking to discard it as soon as possible once activated.

[Eddie Dane]

Originally Posted by Giordano

Not being an international assassin I do not know the rules, but it does make sense to me that the poisoner would seek to simply dump the remnants of the poison as quickly and as easily as they could once done with it. They don't want to be accidentally poisoned by it themselves and they don't want to be caught with it either. Drop it in the trash or in some rubble: what do they care, they kill people for a career.

Is my understanding correct that Novichok is a binary nerve agent and is only dangerous after the precursors are mixed? If so then I can understand even better the assassin being willing to carry it around before mixing, but then seeking to discard it as soon as possible once activated.

Yeah, but I think you'd want to throw it in a canal or a trash bin that gets shipped to some landfill.
Dropping it somewhere where it can be found, can't be very professional? Fingerprints, DNA, the source of the bottle can all lead to the assassin or his/her/Xer's handlers. Plus the extra public outrage if civilians get killed by this stuff.

[Giordano]

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

Yeah, but I think you'd want to throw it in a canal or a trash bin that gets shipped to some landfill.
Dropping it somewhere where it can be found, can't be very professional? Fingerprints, DNA, the source of the bottle can all lead to the assassin or his/her/Xer's handlers. Plus the extra public outrage if civilians get killed by this stuff.

I've been assuming the finders were dumpster diving or similarly looking through rubble that the assassin assumed would be disposed of in other ways.

I also assume the assassin's fingerprints are not in an international data base, nor their DNA profile (although a relative's might be). Even if somehow identified Britain would have to convince Russia to extradite them. I have no doubt that Russia will dispute their guilt and protect them.