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#1321 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,699
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The daughter has spoken to the media
Russian spy poisoning: Yulia Skripal hopes to return to Russia - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44230380 |
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#1322 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 8,794
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#1323 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 8,794
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BBC News: Two collapse near Russian spy poisoning site
"A man and woman are in a critical condition after being exposed to an unknown substance, which counter terrorism officers are investigating. The pair, believed to be Charlie Rowley, 45, and Dawn Sturgess, 44, were found unconscious at a house in Amesbury, Wiltshire, on Saturday. It is understood tests are being carried out on the substance at a government chemical weapons laboratory. Amesbury is about eight miles from the Salisbury Russian spy poisoning site. Former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia were poisoned with Novichok, a suspected military nerve agent, in March." I'd put good money on the house being where the Skripals' would-be assassins were based. |
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#1324 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,991
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Ot it is something else entirely and people are jumping at shadows.
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#1325 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,084
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"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills |
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#1326 |
Thinker
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 180
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The same nerve agent as the Skripals, apparently:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44719639.
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#1327 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 1,755
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Another couple suffering from the same thing now:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44719639 The amount of information is very limited at the moment. My guess is that they have handled something related to the previous case. Possibly means that there are other contaminated items out there. ETA: Sorry, I didn't see the three previous posts when I looked up the thread on the search function! |
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#1328 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,388
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Mrs Don suggested that Russia could have done this deliberately, picking people with no possible link, so as to show that it wasn't them behind the original attack
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#1329 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dundee
Posts: 2,476
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I had a similar thought to be honest.
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"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov Not all cults are bad - I've joined a cult of niceness ![]() |
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#1330 |
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 41,735
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The current theory seems to be it was some residue left carelessly by the poisoners that was not in any place that was cleaned up, and these two happened to come into contact with it.
I did catch part of an interview with an American reporter (I think) a few days ago who was suggesting it was nothing to do with the Russian state, but the Russian Mafia who were trying to stop Skripal from talking. (Then again, where is the dividing line between the Russian state and the Russian Mafia?) |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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#1331 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,991
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Fave theory on Twitter is that it is Porton Down doing it. Some say it is some kind of 'plot' by the govt to discredit Russia for political reasons so they got Porton Down to release the nerve agent. Others that it is some deeper plot than the Govt and then ascribe whatever thair favourite conspiracy of the moment is to it.
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#1332 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 8,794
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#1333 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 22,801
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If there had been something like a spray container with some of the mixture still inside it, I could believe that. But simply a contaminated item? How long does this chemical persist, when exposed to the elements? Surely not that long. And it's difficult to believe this contaminated item has been in some kind of limbo, handled by absolutely no one since the attack on the Skripals, until yesterday.
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"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
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#1334 |
Merchant of Doom
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 13,129
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It does seem a bit suspect, but not necessarily for the length of time.
Nerve Agents are classed as persistent or non-persistent. Non-persistent are used to cause immediate casualties and remove troops: more of an offensive weapon. They're highly volatile and evaporate quickly so forces can move in to the area in as little as a day without fear of the agent (depends on the specific agent formulation, could be anywhere form almost immediate to a week or so). Persistent nerve agents, on the other hand, are an area denial system. They are usually slower acting and require longer exposure, but they hang around for quite some time. An interesting thing to think about, most consumer insecticides use variants of nerve agents...and think about how many of those give the "keeps killing for months!" claim. Those are persistent nerve agents. Given the time between the suspected exposure and unconsciousness in the original case, I'd suspect this is a persistent agent. |
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#1335 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,946
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#1336 |
Merchant of Doom
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 13,129
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That I don't know, but I'd suspect not. Liquid is the most common form for persistent agents, or possibly a gel/paste consistency (might be what they meant by solid); non-persistent tend to be gaseous or fast-evaporating liquids.
That said, I could be wrong, but I don't recall ever hearing about solid agents. Nothing stopping it, I suppose. |
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#1337 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,946
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#1338 |
Merchant of Doom
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 13,129
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Interesting, I don't recall a powder-type before, but it has been a while
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#1339 |
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 41,735
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They've been a bit circumspect in the reports on the news, but it sounds like the latest two found a container which had held the nerve agent.
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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#1340 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 18,991
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Apparently it is UK Govt plot to disrupt the World Cup because it is such good publicity for Russia and to distract attention from Brexit.
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#1341 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,255
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Yes, the police "confirmed on Thursday that the pair had been exposed to Novichok when handling a contaminated item, but they have not revealed what it was." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44721558
The implication there is that the police know what the contaminated item is, which is something of a relief if that's correct. |
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#1342 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,699
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I see that the England football team have announced a change to their strip for Saturday's match.
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#1343 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,388
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#1344 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,879
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So clumsy assassin leaves his container of left over Novichok lying around and it stays potent for all this time and ,whats more it stays in plain sight and is picked up (why?) by two junkies/tramps.
Totally bizarre |
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"I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown
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#1345 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,946
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Not quite.
We know that Novichoks are binary agents and that some are solid at room temperature (but can be used in gels). We also know that they are highly toxic. In that case, it would be safest for the assassin to have a some containers of the precursors and only make them up when they were actually ready to attempt the poisoning. The longer they kept the Novichok around in its fully active form, the higher the risk of accidentally poisoning themselves. If you have a field-kit to make up the poison - maybe disguised as a first aid kit, then you can make it up at the time, apply the poison to the target object and then quickly discard it somewhere where it is unlikely to be found until you have left the country. If it looks like used drugs paraphernalia (needles and syringes) and you dump it somewhere where there is a lot of such paraphernalia, then even if it is found and kills someone there is quite a chance it would just be treated as an accidental drugs overdose. It really seems quite straightforward to me |
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#1346 |
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 41,735
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Not quite plain sight, according to the Evening Standard, they were dumpster diving.
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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#1347 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,879
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"I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown
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#1348 |
Good of the Fods
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,508
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The two new victims could be described as junkies, tramps no not really.
The bins round these parts are emptied regularly, weekly or fortnitely depending on whether or not it's a commercial or residential bin. Given what we know, then it's likely that whatever the item was that this pair picked up that contained the nerve agent wasn't in a bin. there's a fair amount of fly tipping that goes on all round the place, most of which remains in situ for a while depending on where exactly it's left, so it's plausible that they could have found a syringe/baggy under a bush in Lizzy Gardens, or something discarded in a hedgerow or woods on one of the many pathways/bridleways and mistaken it for something it wasn't. The discarded container theory is many times more plausible than other theories doing the rounds. It wasn't likely to have been in plain sight, as someone else would have picked it up before now. |
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#1349 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,946
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Thank you Ambrosia for pointing out with local knowledge, what should have been obvious to anyone who isn't so keen on just asking questions.
But it still seemed to need saying. This is really not that complicated in the general outline of the story. Russia commissions someone to poison the Skripals (possibly deliberately targeting Yulia as well). Russian agents are given the components of the binary agent and a kit to make it up just before the attack. They use the kit and discard it somewhere where it won't look suspicious and attack the Skripals before escaping - possibly on the next flight to Moscow and before the Skripals even start to show symptoms. A few months later, someone finds the discarded container and thinks it's something else so picks it up without precautions and gets poisoned. |
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#1350 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,230
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"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage |
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#1351 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,946
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A police officer has been hospitalised with suspected Novichok poisoning
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8436761.html |
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#1352 |
Scholar
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 95
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#1353 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,879
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Dawn Sturgess has died and a murder investigation has begun.
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"I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown
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#1354 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,399
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#1355 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,946
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#1356 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 4,838
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Bizarre? This is the reason the British authorities spent so much effort into decontamination. They knew something like this could happen because of the physical properties of the nerve agent and worked hard to prevent it, but obviously didn't succeed.
An inescapable conclusion of this is that Russia demonstrated complete and utter disregard against the life and well-being of the British public. Just like with in the assassination of Alexander Litvinenko: Instead of choosing a method of assassination that would have minimized the likelihood of "collateral damage" they instead chose one that place other people at very high risk of death. |
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Freedom you all want, you want freedom. Why then do you haggle over a more or less? Freedom can only be the whole of freedom; a piece of freedom is not freedom. You despair of the possibility of obtaining the whole of freedom, freedom from everything - yes, you consider it insanity even to wish this? - Well, then leave off chasing after the phantom, and spend your pains on something better than the - unattainable. - Max Stirner |
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#1357 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,390
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I read in the Daily Fail yesterday that the pair picked up a perfume bottle. The woman sprayed the perfume on her wrists. The guy was in contact with the substance, but to a lesser degree than the woman.
The woman died, the guy is slowly recovering. He's conscious again and has been informed of his girlfriends' death. The police hope he'll remember the exact location of the bottle when he has further recovered. He is still in a bad state. This is from memory. I can't look up the link now. And it was the Daily Mail, so it may have been dreamed up by a news editor on a beach in Thailand after a few lines of coke. |
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Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh! |
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#1358 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,234
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Not being an international assassin I do not know the rules, but it does make sense to me that the poisoner would seek to simply dump the remnants of the poison as quickly and as easily as they could once done with it. They don't want to be accidentally poisoned by it themselves and they don't want to be caught with it either. Drop it in the trash or in some rubble: what do they care, they kill people for a career.
Is my understanding correct that Novichok is a binary nerve agent and is only dangerous after the precursors are mixed? If so then I can understand even better the assassin being willing to carry it around before mixing, but then seeking to discard it as soon as possible once activated. |
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#1359 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,390
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Yeah, but I think you'd want to throw it in a canal or a trash bin that gets shipped to some landfill.
Dropping it somewhere where it can be found, can't be very professional? Fingerprints, DNA, the source of the bottle can all lead to the assassin or his/her/Xer's handlers. Plus the extra public outrage if civilians get killed by this stuff. |
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Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh! |
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#1360 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,234
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I've been assuming the finders were dumpster diving or similarly looking through rubble that the assassin assumed would be disposed of in other ways.
I also assume the assassin's fingerprints are not in an international data base, nor their DNA profile (although a relative's might be). Even if somehow identified Britain would have to convince Russia to extradite them. I have no doubt that Russia will dispute their guilt and protect them. |
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