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Tags gay rights issues , religious rights issues , supreme court cases

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Old 7th June 2018, 09:41 AM   #401
paulhutch
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Unfortunately, not how that is working. His supporters come from near and far to give him their business.

And we have a winner in Tennessee:

http://www.newnownext.com/no-gays-al...eshop/06/2018/
I don't think Tennessee has extended civil rights protection to LGBT citizens, and since there is no federal protection, that should be legal discrimination.
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Old 7th June 2018, 11:07 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
I don't think Tennessee has extended civil rights protection to LGBT citizens, and since there is no federal protection, that should be legal discrimination.
I know that in employment the justice department argued and won in some court cases that existing sex based discrimination laws cover sexual orientation. So maybe maybe not.
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Old 7th June 2018, 11:09 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Yeah, that didn't take long.

And despite his attempts to walk it back afterwards, this is a clear indication of what the "religious freedom" movement has been working toward the entire time. The freedom to discriminate against anyone and everyone they don't like.

We're heading right back to "separate but equal" as a best-case scenario if the "religious freedom" types get their way; and the more unpleasant factions of Christianity as the dominant social force if they managed to force things even farther down that road.

ETA: Looks like the fallout is already ramping up. Supreme Court Christian Cake Baker Ruling Leads Homophobic Store Owner to Put Up a ‘No Gays Allowed’ Sign – Again
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Old 7th June 2018, 11:45 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
We're heading right back to "separate but equal" as a best-case scenario if the "religious freedom" types get their way; and the more unpleasant factions of Christianity as the dominant social force if they managed to force things even farther down that road.
That's just ridiculous. Separate but equal would be a pipe dream in small towns dominated by straight white Christians. It'll be "nothing for anyone who doesn't love, look, and worship like we do."

If I was a believer, I'd be praying every day for the health and well-being of our current Supreme Court justices. We can't afford to lose another inch to the bigots.

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Old 7th June 2018, 11:51 AM   #405
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I believe SCOTUS wanted to avoid a media outcry and therefore used a technically to get around having to actually judge the case on its merits.
But that will probably backfire as a number of shop owners will feel empowered to refuse service to protected groups, triggering a new avalanche of court cases.
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Old 7th June 2018, 12:17 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I believe SCOTUS wanted to avoid a media outcry and therefore used a technically to get around having to actually judge the case on its merits.
But that will probably backfire as a number of shop owners will feel empowered to refuse service to protected groups, triggering a new avalanche of court cases.
That isn't supported by the opinion itself. In the opinion, they reference the coming avalanche of court cases, so it isn't actually a "backfire". They did punt the case, but I don't think it was to avoid a media outcry.

I think the biggest problem with this case was a different aspect of it, that was also referenced in the opinion. The actual contact between Phillips and the would-be customers was literally only a few sentences long. They said they wanted a cake for their wedding. He said no, but that they could have other things. They walked out. That's it.

Based on such a brief conversation, it's hard to say exactly what Mr. Phillips refused to do, or exactly what the customers were asking for. With such a scant record of exactly what the transaction was, it was difficult to say exactly what was done that may or may not have violated the law, or may or may not have constituted protected exercise of religion. Without a clear cut case, they would be ruling on a hypothetical, and the Supremes aren't supposed to do that.
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Old 7th June 2018, 01:13 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And despite his attempts to walk it back afterwards, this is a clear indication of what the "religious freedom" movement has been working toward the entire time. The freedom to discriminate against anyone and everyone they don't like.

We're heading right back to "separate but equal" as a best-case scenario if the "religious freedom" types get their way; and the more unpleasant factions of Christianity as the dominant social force if they managed to force things even farther down that road.
Anyone else remember when Michele Bachmann and her ilk used to caterwaul, before Obergefell, that teh gayz were demanding "special treatment," some special right or privilege, in asking to be treated exactly the same as straight people when it came to marriage laws? It's not a little ironic that now it's the uber-Christians who are actually demanding a special right when they think they're entitled to the privilege of discrimination, on their religious grounds, against people who would otherwise have an equal protection of law against that discrimination.

And make no mistake, no pussyfooting about it, discrimination is exactly the right word, when it's aimed squarely at a specified class of people. If an equally-religious person demanded the right to refuse service to black people based on an equally sincere religious objections (with no other allowable test for the sincerity but the making of the objection), it would certainly not be allowed on that religious ground, and would be called what it was. How is the case any different when it's the same discriminatory action, on the same ground, taken against gay people?

Quote:
From that article-
Quote:
"This is 'happy days' for Christians all over America, but dark days will come," Amyx warned this week. "Christianity is under attack. This is a great win, don't get me wrong, but this is not the end, this is just the beginning," he claims, of the supposed war on Christians.

Dear lord (for the irony)- these people are so wrapped in their own sense of privilege that they really believe this kind of tripe- that they are the ones being singled out for persecution for not being allowed a dispensation to discriminate, when, in fact, they're not being treated any differently than anyone else who isn't accorded that same "right."
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Old 8th June 2018, 09:01 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Dear lord (for the irony)- these people are so wrapped in their own sense of privilege that they really believe this kind of tripe- that they are the ones being singled out for persecution for not being allowed a dispensation to discriminate, when, in fact, they're not being treated any differently than anyone else who isn't accorded that same "right."

Cognitive dissonance I kind of get, and few of us could claim to have never been hypocritical, but it's the absolute pleasure people like that seem to get out of making someone else's life a bit worse for absolutely no reason that I just don't get. If the sign works they won't even meet the people, it will just be some random strangers who pass by, see the sign and have their day made a little bit less pleasant by someone's indiscriminate hatred.
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Old 8th June 2018, 10:29 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Cognitive dissonance I kind of get, and few of us could claim to have never been hypocritical, but it's the absolute pleasure people like that seem to get out of making someone else's life a bit worse for absolutely no reason that I just don't get. If the sign works they won't even meet the people, it will just be some random strangers who pass by, see the sign and have their day made a little bit less pleasant by someone's indiscriminate hatred.
The whole point of citing The Book is that you get to pat yourself on the back for doing something self-righteous. It's a big book, you can justify pretty much anything against anyone.
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Old 8th June 2018, 12:47 PM   #410
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Cognitive dissonance I kind of get, and few of us could claim to have never been hypocritical, but it's the absolute pleasure people like that seem to get out of making someone else's life a bit worse for absolutely no reason that I just don't get. If the sign works they won't even meet the people, it will just be some random strangers who pass by, see the sign and have their day made a little bit less pleasant by someone's indiscriminate hatred.
Folks like these remind me of a thing we used to do as kids, strutting around with our arms wind-milling and kicking out with our legs as far as we could get them, screeching "I'm just walking here, if you get kicked or punched, it's your own fault for getting in my way!" I have to say, though, that even as a kid, it never occurred to me to seriously think that anyone who protested (or, god forbid, punched back) was persecuting me in the practice of some right.


As far as this guy's sign goes- he's a hardware store owner, for pete's sake. How would he ever know if he sold a hammer to a gay person? Does he ask everyone who comes in the store about their sexual preferences? I think it's like sylvan says, pure virtue signaling for afterlife brownie points. Even at that, if he actually tried to enforce his bigotry, he might find out that refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding on religious grounds is one thing, but there's no "artistic expression" involved in selling a box of nails to anyone.
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Old 8th June 2018, 03:27 PM   #411
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And in the first ruling by a lower court to cite this ruling as precedent, an Arizona appeals court ruled against a calligraphy business who refused to provide custom invitations for a same sex couple's wedding.

In doing so, they used the language associated with the strict scrutiny analysis, saying that the state had a compelling interest in providing a non-discriminatory environment for citizens engaging in commerce, which made it acceptable to compel a business to provide a service even if the proprietors felt that the service was incompatible with their religion.
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Old 8th June 2018, 04:32 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
I don't think Tennessee has extended civil rights *** protection to LGBT citizens, and since there is no federal protection, that should be legal discrimination.
To clarify I should have been more specific, where the *** is, I should have included "public accommodation".

LGBT citizens do get the right to marry via federal law and very likely get coverage in some of Tennessee's other civil rights protections.
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Old 8th June 2018, 04:46 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I totally agree.

Just like when I got mugged I wanted a bunch of random white guys to go beat up people in the neighborhoodit happened.

No, wait I didn't because I don't have the social understanding of a child.
Ah yes, because a sign is the same thing as physical violence. You sure got me there.
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Old 8th June 2018, 05:15 PM   #414
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I am not sure this is as cut and dried as some here would have it.
IMHO that 2 of the "Liberal" justices voted with the majority indicates the issues might not be so black and white (no joke intended) as many here think.
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Old 8th June 2018, 05:17 PM   #415
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And I think anybody turning away a paying customer for such a stupid reason probably won't survive that long in business anyway.
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Old 8th June 2018, 05:45 PM   #416
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am not sure this is as cut and dried as some here would have it.
IMHO that 2 of the "Liberal" justices voted with the majority indicates the issues might not be so black and white (no joke intended) as many here think.
The opinion seems pretty clearly written to me. The majority ruled that some on the commission were expressing anti-religious statements and out right hostility to the baker's beliefs that had no bearing on the case before them to such an extent that they were considered to be actively violating the free exercise clause of the first.

Excerpt from page 3 of the opinion (PDF page 6) https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinion...-111_j4el.pdf:
Quote:
When the Colorado Civil Rights Commission considered this case, it did not do so with the religious neutrality that the Constitution requires.
Given all these considerations, it is proper to hold that whatever the outcome of some future controversy involving facts similar to these, the Commission’s actions here violated the Free Exercise Clause; and its order must be set aside.
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Old 8th June 2018, 06:05 PM   #417
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post

And make no mistake, no pussyfooting about it, discrimination is exactly the right word, when it's aimed squarely at a specified class of people.
Indeed. Let's follow that reasoning.

A minister walks into a baker and requests a cake for an upcoming church celebration. He wants it to say, "Jesus Loves You". The baker says, "Certainly Pastor Smith. It will be ready on Friday." A second minister walks in with a similar request, but wants a cake that says, "God Hates Fags". The baker says, "I'm sorry Pastor Phelps. I will not make that cake." That's religious discrimination. (ETA: i.e the baker is practicing religious discrimination by allowing one religious message, but not another.)

For those of you who didn't read the ruling, something very similar actually played a significant role in the Supreme Court's decision.

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Old 8th June 2018, 09:35 PM   #418
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Indeed. Let's follow that reasoning.

A minister walks into a baker and requests a cake for an upcoming church celebration. He wants it to say, "Jesus Loves You". The baker says, "Certainly Pastor Smith. It will be ready on Friday." A second minister walks in with a similar request, but wants a cake that says, "God Hates Fags". The baker says, "I'm sorry Pastor Phelps. I will not make that cake." That's religious discrimination. (ETA: i.e the baker is practicing religious discrimination by allowing one religious message, but not another.)

For those of you who didn't read the ruling, something very similar actually played a significant role in the Supreme Court's decision.
I didn't actually agree with them that the other cases were similar or related. Some shops refused to make cakes saying certain things. But they were discriminating against the words, not against the customer or the events. The Colorado baker was discriminating against an EVENT. Personally, if I made cakes, I would make cakes for anything except pornographic images. Want a swastika? Why not? I'm not judging what you want or the event you want it for. Anything in the Big Book about not judging others?
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Old 8th June 2018, 11:52 PM   #419
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
I didn't actually agree with them that the other cases were similar or related. Some shops refused to make cakes saying certain things. But they were discriminating against the words, not against the customer or the events. The Colorado baker was discriminating against an EVENT. Personally, if I made cakes, I would make cakes for anything except pornographic images. Want a swastika? Why not? I'm not judging what you want or the event you want it for. Anything in the Big Book about not judging others?
Jesus did not judge or condemn anyone, but he also didn't do anything to enable sin.
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Old 9th June 2018, 12:31 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
I didn't actually agree with them that the other cases were similar or related. Some shops refused to make cakes saying certain things. But they were discriminating against the words, not against the customer or the events.
True, they were discriminating against words. Specifically, against a particular statement of a religious nature. There are some religious expressions that would be allowed by the baker, and some that would not be allowed by the baker. That's discrimination based on religion, which is something that Colorado law forbids.

Of course, "Congratulations Jim and Robert" are words as well.

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Old 9th June 2018, 08:07 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Jesus did not judge or condemn anyone, but he also didn't do anything to enable sin.
How does cake enable people to sin?
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Old 9th June 2018, 08:12 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
How does cake enable people to sin?
Gluttony
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Old 9th June 2018, 08:27 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
How does cake enable people to sin?
Oh I have a few ideas.
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Old 9th June 2018, 11:35 PM   #424
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Jesus did not judge or condemn anyone, but he also didn't do anything to enable sin.
Depends on whether you consider drinking alcohol to be sinful or not. Many denominations of Christianity frown upon alcohol, despite Jesus himself miraculously providing an open bar at a wedding.
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Old 11th June 2018, 04:16 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And I think anybody turning away a paying customer for such a stupid reason probably won't survive that long in business anyway.
Banks did it for decades with no problem with redlining. As long as you have a customer base that is fine with it, and plenty of people hate gays, it isn't a business killer.

Toyota didn't have a problem running with racist practices.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...202-story.html
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Old 11th June 2018, 05:23 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
That's just ridiculous. Separate but equal would be a pipe dream in small towns dominated by straight white Christians. It'll be "nothing for anyone who doesn't love, look, and worship like we do."

If I was a believer, I'd be praying every day for the health and well-being of our current Supreme Court justices. We can't afford to lose another inch to the bigots.
Yes.
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Old 11th June 2018, 09:51 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Banks did it for decades with no problem with redlining. As long as you have a customer base that is fine with it, and plenty of people hate gays, it isn't a business killer.

Toyota didn't have a problem running with racist practices.[/url]

Losing business only matters if you're losing enough of it. Given that LGBTQ people are a small minority of the general population, few businesses are going to even notice the loss, let alone care. And there have been plenty of cases in history of people refusing business to particular groups on religious or similar principles, to their own detriment. Humans have an unnervingly common tendency to cut of their noses to spite their faces.
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Old 12th June 2018, 03:00 AM   #428
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Discrimination against LGBTQ people won't lose much business, but discriminating against heterosexuals is sure to bankrupt a business. This is the reason the "free market" solution for bigotry doesn't work.
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Old 12th June 2018, 04:49 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And I think anybody turning away a paying customer for such a stupid reason probably won't survive that long in business anyway.
It depends on the local community.

One which is highly bigoted religious may use the godly business which aligns with their own prejudices in preference to one which does not discriminate in any way.
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Old 15th August 2018, 09:38 AM   #430
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Masterpiece cake shop keeps on playing the classics: Cake maker refused to make birthday cake when he learned it would be celebrating the transition of a transgender customer and is back in front of the Colorado commission. He is also suing the commission for persecuting his religious beliefs.

https://kdvr.com/2018/08/15/masterpi...ts-commission/
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Old 15th August 2018, 12:41 PM   #431
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Discrimination against LGBTQ people won't lose much business, but discriminating against heterosexuals is sure to bankrupt a business. This is the reason the "free market" solution for bigotry doesn't work.

And we saw back during Jim Crow that discriminating against even much more numerous minorities was not particularly harmful to white businesses from a free market perspective.

Black people did manage to start their own businesses in many areas, despite the huge financial disadvantages they started out with, and the difficulties getting loan or otherwise doing business with white-owned banks, but these were rarely patronized by white people, and were not as successful and profitable as white businesses of the era.
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Old 15th August 2018, 12:50 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And we saw back during Jim Crow that discriminating against even much more numerous minorities was not particularly harmful to white businesses from a free market perspective.

Black people did manage to start their own businesses in many areas, despite the huge financial disadvantages they started out with, and the difficulties getting loan or otherwise doing business with white-owned banks, but these were rarely patronized by white people, and were not as successful and profitable as white businesses of the era.
And if they did attract non-black patrons and genuinely started to compete with WASP owned businesses, well... this is how WASPs knew it was time for a pogrom.
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Old 15th August 2018, 02:21 PM   #433
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Masterpiece cake shop keeps on playing the classics: Cake maker refused to make birthday cake when he learned it would be celebrating the transition of a transgender customer and is back in front of the Colorado commission. He is also suing the commission for persecuting his religious beliefs.

https://kdvr.com/2018/08/15/masterpi...ts-commission/
I would love to have someone show me the passages from the Bible where it says that Christians must not bake cakes for people who's lifestyles they disagree with.
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Old 15th August 2018, 07:59 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I would love to have someone show me the passages from the Bible where it says that Christians must not bake cakes for people who's lifestyles they disagree with.
Since according to the New Testament, they are supposed to be loving, forgiving and actively trying to save us all etc, pretty much not anywhere.

So their actions in not baking a cake is not supported by their New Testament.

That and there's a passage in 1 Corinthians about taking your case to a secular court.
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Old 15th August 2018, 08:50 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I would love to have someone show me the passages from the Bible where it says that Christians must not bake cakes for people who's lifestyles they disagree with.
Every time "God's" judgment is carried out, he blasts everyone in the general vicinity - guilty and innocent, born and unborn alike. Not only can you not make cakes, you can't let anyone else in Sodom make a cake. Really, Mr. Phillips is a bit of a disappointment to the good lord. He needs to go someplace where God's wrath is going to spare him - Syria maybe.
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Old 16th August 2018, 12:16 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Since according to the New Testament, they are supposed to be loving, forgiving and actively trying to save us all etc, pretty much not anywhere.

So their actions in not baking a cake is not supported by their New Testament.

That and there's a passage in 1 Corinthians about taking your case to a secular court.
Exactly, there are a lot of passages especially in the NT about supporting Governments and following the laws of the land, paying your taxes, helping, taking care of, and feeding the poor, not treating the poor differently to the rich, loving your enemy and doing what is right towards them, going out of your way to assist those that insult and abuse you. The early churches had far more in common with Socialism that Capitalism. When I look at what America has turned Christianity into and how they try and export it to other countries, it makes me weep.
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Old 16th August 2018, 04:38 PM   #437
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And they will win again in court.
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Old 16th August 2018, 04:54 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
And they will win again in court.
They shouldn't. America is a messed up country and putting people's religious bigotry before other people's right to be treated and served as everyone else, it's anti-Christian and anti-Biblical.
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Old 16th August 2018, 05:14 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
And if they did attract non-black patrons and genuinely started to compete with WASP owned businesses, well... this is how WASPs knew it was time for a pogrom.
It's worth pointing out that in many cases, the police did manage to intervene at some point during the racist attacks - in order to arrest and confiscate guns and property from the black people who were being attacked.

These sort of attempt at overt discrimination shouldn't be allowed to fester, in my opinion.
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Old 16th August 2018, 08:47 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Exactly, there are a lot of passages especially in the NT about supporting Governments and following the laws of the land, paying your taxes, helping, taking care of, and feeding the poor, not treating the poor differently to the rich, loving your enemy and doing what is right towards them, going out of your way to assist those that insult and abuse you. The early churches had far more in common with Socialism that Capitalism. When I look at what America has turned Christianity into and how they try and export it to other countries, it makes me weep.

And, of course, there's Matthew 5:40-43.

There's a reason I don't often tell people I'm a Christian anymore.
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