Deja vu: Convicted "spy" poisoned in UK

Information Analyst · 5th March 2018, 02:43 PM

BBC News: Critically ill man is former Russian spy

"A man who is critically ill after being exposed to an unknown substance in Wiltshire is a Russian national convicted of spying for Britain, the BBC understands.

Sergei Skripal, 66, was granted refuge in the UK following a "spy swap" between the US and Russia in 2010.

He and a woman, 33, were found unconscious on a bench at a shopping centre in Salisbury on Sunday afternoon."

casebro · 5th March 2018, 02:58 PM

He AND a woman? Murder/suicide anyone?

Perhaps living in the Golden West wasn't so golden?

autumn1971 · 5th March 2018, 03:10 PM

That's almost as brutal as Putin treats journalists.

ginjawarrior · 5th March 2018, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

He AND a woman? Murder/suicide anyone?

Perhaps living in the Golden West wasn't so golden?

poisoning oneself and another isn't a in the middle of a shopping centre thing.

Information Analyst · 5th March 2018, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by ginjawarrior

poisoning oneself and another isn't a in the middle of a shopping centre thing.

Quite. It was the car park, not the lingerie section of M&S (where waiting male partners often contemplate suicide).

Childlike Empress · 5th March 2018, 03:23 PM

Skeptic Ginger · 5th March 2018, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

He AND a woman? Murder/suicide anyone?
...

Not likely on a bench in a shopping center.

Skeptic Ginger · 5th March 2018, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Information Analyst

Quite. It was the car park, not the lingerie section of M&S (where waiting male partners often contemplate suicide).

Sorry, probably too soon.

They have benches in car parks? The pics look like a bench outside a strip mall.

Captain_Swoop · 5th March 2018, 03:32 PM

Hospital where he was treated has been partially evacuated while it is decontaminated.

Venom · 5th March 2018, 04:42 PM

In 2006, Putin formally approved the FSB, internal state security, to conduct operations overseas to dispatch enemies of the state, if you like.
That's the year FSB veteran Sasha Litvinenko was killed abroad, not to mention the dozens back home.

But clearly the Russian secret services had already been doing such activities before that, usually to silence agents or officers who were involved in illegal business.

Don't expect RT to report on that though.

Though we can't jump to conclusions here there is precedent.

Venom · 5th March 2018, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by autumn1971

That's almost as brutal as Putin treats journalists.

Even more brutal and insidious.

Senex · 5th March 2018, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Information Analyst

Quite. It was the car park, not the lingerie section of M&S (where waiting male partners often contemplate suicide).

If you have a girl trying on lingerie, suicide should be the last thing on your mind.

Childlike Empress · 5th March 2018, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Venom

That's the year FSB veteran Sasha Litvinenko was killed abroad, not to mention the dozens back home.

It seems this name-saking to fraudulent hero Alexandr is abused by Ukrops, the lowest of surviving Nazis, but apparently if you aren't an idiot in addition to an ideologue, It's kind of backfiring.

ginjawarrior · 5th March 2018, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

It seems this name-saking to fraudulent hero Alexandr is abused by Ukrops, the lowest of surviving Nazis, but apparently if you aren't an idiot in addition to an ideologue, It's kind of backfiring.

"Vladimir Litvinenko"??

Childlike Empress · 5th March 2018, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by ginjawarrior

"Vladimir Litvinenko"??

Exactly.

ginjawarrior · 5th March 2018, 05:23 PM

what has Vladimir Litvinenko got to do with the price of fish?

Childlike Empress · 5th March 2018, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by ginjawarrior

what has Vladimir Litvinenko got to do with the price of fish?

What do you have to do with Ukrainian "Intelligence"?

ginjawarrior · 5th March 2018, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

What do you have to do with Ukrainian "Intelligence"?

probably exactly as much as Vladimir litvinenko seems to have to do with this thread..

p0lka · 5th March 2018, 05:59 PM

Alexander Litvinenko came to mind and maybe russia is at it again.
**** knows which Litvinenko you people are talking about.

Venom · 5th March 2018, 09:26 PM

CE, Litvinenko was a whistleblower, hero or not. Calling him a fraud is simply misdirection, deflection. He was given orders to kill, which he didn't carry out, but exposed his bosses, then Putin. And afterwards convincingly exposed his inhuman crime of 1999.

But you probably already know all that and are just trolling/shilling at this point.

Childlike Empress · 5th March 2018, 09:51 PM

Litvinenko, Alexandr was Boris Berezovski's driver, bodyguard and tool, as we all know.

Elagabalus · 5th March 2018, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Litvinenko, Alexandr was Boris Berezovski's driver, bodyguard and tool, as we all know.

Wow, just, wow ...

Venom · 5th March 2018, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by Elagabalus

Wow, just, wow ...

Sometimes I think she's parodying the Kremlin lines. Sadly probably not.

ceptimus · 5th March 2018, 11:51 PM

I wonder if they're already dead and the "critically ill" part is intended to help flush out the attackers.

Information Analyst · 6th March 2018, 01:58 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

They have benches in car parks? The pics look like a bench outside a strip mall.

I stand corrected. I somehow got the impression that it was in the shopping centre car park outside, but looking on Google earth the car park is a multi-storey. We wouldn't call it a "mall," though - far too small. It's not unusual to find benches around the edge of open ground-level car parks next to whatever retail building it is, though.

Information Analyst · 6th March 2018, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by Senex

If you have a girl trying on lingerie, suicide should be the last thing on your mind.

Only a small subset amongst a sea of male despair.

Childlike Empress · 6th March 2018, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by Elagabalus

Wow, just, wow ...

I think it's very weird that Berezovski's suicide isn't blamed on Putin by the usual suspects who blame him for everything else. It's almost as if they don't want any attention on this "character" (usually the scare quotes should be on suicide, shouldn't they?).

abaddon · 6th March 2018, 02:08 AM

Interesting that Putin has his own fans just like Trump. In certain fans eyes neither can do no wrong, evar.

Childlike Empress · 6th March 2018, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by abaddon

Interesting that Putin has his own fans just like Trump. In certain fans eyes neither can do no wrong, evar.

Yeah, I know this from having my own fans. You should try it some time. Feels funny.

Worm · 6th March 2018, 03:38 AM

The woman found along with Skripal was his 33-year-old daughter.

Russian officials are saying they have 'no information' on what might have caused them to collapse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43297638

Henri McPhee · 6th March 2018, 03:51 AM

Putin as a former KGB man, a bit like Stalin. The Russian secret police have a reputation in the past for bumping off opposition people, and those who provide useful and pointed criticism, or attempt to fight corruption. It's shock horror reporting. The CIA in America is much the same. I still think Putin provides more sane government than that drunk Yeltsin, and he doesn't want to interfere with international trade, like Britain and America. For some unknown reason British and American women seem to be vehemently opposed to Putin. It must be something to do with the female brain operating in straight lines. Russia always was an autocracy.

lionking · 6th March 2018, 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee

Putin as a former KGB man, a bit like Stalin. The Russian secret police have a reputation in the past for bumping off opposition people, and those who provide useful and pointed criticism, or attempt to fight corruption. It's shock horror reporting. The CIA in America is much the same. I still think Putin provides more sane government than that drunk Yeltsin, and he doesn't want to interfere with international trade, like Britain and America. For some unknown reason British and American women seem to be vehemently opposed to Putin. It must be something to do with the female brain operating in straight lines. Russia always was an autocracy.

Funnily enough, I think most people, male and female, are opposed to Putin because he is a murdering megalomaniac.

Captain_Swoop · 6th March 2018, 04:03 AM

Funny that when spies bump each other off in real life there is such a fuss but according to popular fiction they do it all the time and it's something we assume is happening anyway.

casebro · 6th March 2018, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by Worm

The woman found along with Skripal was his 33-year-old daughter.

Russian officials are saying they have 'no information' on what might have caused them to collapse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43297638

Being his daughter is enlightening. It means poisoning is more likely than poisoning him and his date. Though it still leaves murder/suicide open. But maybe the daughter being the murderer, since poison is often the weapon of choice for women. as well as spies? .

Babbylonian · 6th March 2018, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

Funnily enough, I think most people, male and female, are opposed to Putin because he is a murdering megalomaniac.

And because shrugging at a dictatorship has never made anybody's life better.

Mikemcc · 6th March 2018, 04:26 PM

Why do so many of these things happen in the UK?

Probably the 7th killing, or attempted killing, in 40 years (at least).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nked-uk-deaths

Venom · 6th March 2018, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

I think it's very weird that Berezovski's suicide isn't blamed on Putin by the usual suspects who blame him for everything else. It's almost as if they don't want any attention on this "character" (usually the scare quotes should be on suicide, shouldn't they?).

Because there was no evidence of foul play at the Berezovski scene and he was probably depressed.
Berezovski was a shady character who recommended Putin to the Yeltsin entourage, getting rich off of the backs of the people, and he shouldn't be put on a pedestal, but he was a valuable source of intelligence for a time when he lived in Britain. He had a conscience, unlike the stooges of the current regime who repeatedly deny they did the very same and worse.

Venom · 6th March 2018, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee

The CIA in America is much the same.

The same in what way.

Quote:

I still think Putin provides more sane government than that drunk Yeltsin

Sure, not that high of a bar though. He is constantly pushing the narrative that anything his regime does is comparable to stuff done by Western govts, while concealing or muddying up the very worst of his crimes. Like the apartment bombings, when when confronted about it in the early 2000s, they tried to create a laughably weak analogy with 9/11, while years later they invited die-hard Truthers on RT.

This is The End · 6th March 2018, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by Venom

In 2006, Putin formally approved the FSB, internal state security, to conduct operations overseas to dispatch enemies of the state, if you like.

It sure seems that way:

From Russia With Blood: 14 Suspected Hits On British Soil That The Government Ignored

It seems the latest one (that we're discussing here) may be the last straw. Apparently up until now the UK was taking a don't piss off Russia stance.

zooterkin · 7th March 2018, 02:12 AM

The Daily Heil (sorry, it was in our break room at work) is claiming 12 deaths on British soil due to the Russians.

5th March 2018, 02:43 PM	#1
Information Analyst Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 8,451	Deja vu: Convicted "spy" poisoned in UK BBC News: Critically ill man is former Russian spy "A man who is critically ill after being exposed to an unknown substance in Wiltshire is a Russian national convicted of spying for Britain, the BBC understands. Sergei Skripal, 66, was granted refuge in the UK following a "spy swap" between the US and Russia in 2010. He and a woman, 33, were found unconscious on a bench at a shopping centre in Salisbury on Sunday afternoon."

5th March 2018, 02:58 PM	#2
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 15,850	He AND a woman? Murder/suicide anyone? Perhaps living in the Golden West wasn't so golden?
	__________________ Great minds discuss ideas. Medium minds discuss events. Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.

5th March 2018, 03:10 PM	#3
autumn1971 Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,460	That's almost as brutal as Putin treats journalists.
	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

5th March 2018, 03:16 PM	#4
ginjawarrior Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 214	Originally Posted by casebro He AND a woman? Murder/suicide anyone? Perhaps living in the Golden West wasn't so golden? poisoning oneself and another isn't a in the middle of a shopping centre thing.
ginjawarrior Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 214

5th March 2018, 03:23 PM	#6
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 15,966	Wiltshire, YUUUGE alien presence (mostly drinking pints at the crop circle pub)

5th March 2018, 03:18 PM	#5
Information Analyst Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 8,451	Originally Posted by ginjawarrior poisoning oneself and another isn't a in the middle of a shopping centre thing. Quite. It was the car park, not the lingerie section of M&S (where waiting male partners often contemplate suicide).

5th March 2018, 03:24 PM	#7
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 69,947	Originally Posted by casebro He AND a woman? Murder/suicide anyone? ... Not likely on a bench in a shopping center.
	__________________ Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

5th March 2018, 03:25 PM	#8
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 69,947	Originally Posted by Information Analyst Quite. It was the car park, not the lingerie section of M&S (where waiting male partners often contemplate suicide). Sorry, probably too soon. They have benches in car parks? The pics look like a bench outside a strip mall.
	__________________ Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation. Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 5th March 2018 at 03:30 PM.

5th March 2018, 03:32 PM	#9
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 17,782	Hospital where he was treated has been partially evacuated while it is decontaminated.

5th March 2018, 04:42 PM	#10
Venom Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,744	In 2006, Putin formally approved the FSB, internal state security, to conduct operations overseas to dispatch enemies of the state, if you like. That's the year FSB veteran Sasha Litvinenko was killed abroad, not to mention the dozens back home. But clearly the Russian secret services had already been doing such activities before that, usually to silence agents or officers who were involved in illegal business. Don't expect RT to report on that though. Though we can't jump to conclusions here there is precedent.

5th March 2018, 04:44 PM	#11
Venom Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,744	Originally Posted by autumn1971 That's almost as brutal as Putin treats journalists. Even more brutal and insidious.

5th March 2018, 04:58 PM	#12
Senex Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 5,575	Originally Posted by Information Analyst Quite. It was the car park, not the lingerie section of M&S (where waiting male partners often contemplate suicide). If you have a girl trying on lingerie, suicide should be the last thing on your mind.
Senex Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 5,575

5th March 2018, 05:01 PM	#13
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 15,966	Originally Posted by Venom That's the year FSB veteran Sasha Litvinenko was killed abroad, not to mention the dozens back home. It seems this name-saking to fraudulent hero Alexandr is abused by Ukrops, the lowest of surviving Nazis, but apparently if you aren't an idiot in addition to an ideologue, It's kind of backfiring.

5th March 2018, 05:17 PM	#14
ginjawarrior Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 214	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress It seems this name-saking to fraudulent hero Alexandr is abused by Ukrops, the lowest of surviving Nazis, but apparently if you aren't an idiot in addition to an ideologue, It's kind of backfiring. "Vladimir Litvinenko"??
ginjawarrior Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 214

5th March 2018, 05:19 PM	#15
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 15,966	Originally Posted by ginjawarrior "Vladimir Litvinenko"?? Exactly.

5th March 2018, 05:23 PM	#16
ginjawarrior Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 214	what has Vladimir Litvinenko got to do with the price of fish?
ginjawarrior Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 214

5th March 2018, 05:28 PM	#17
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 15,966	Originally Posted by ginjawarrior what has Vladimir Litvinenko got to do with the price of fish? What do you have to do with Ukrainian "Intelligence"?

5th March 2018, 05:31 PM	#18
ginjawarrior Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 214	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress What do you have to do with Ukrainian "Intelligence"? probably exactly as much as Vladimir litvinenko seems to have to do with this thread..
ginjawarrior Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 214

5th March 2018, 05:59 PM	#19
p0lka Muse Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 992	Alexander Litvinenko came to mind and maybe russia is at it again. **** knows which Litvinenko you people are talking about.
p0lka Muse Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 992

5th March 2018, 09:26 PM	#20
Venom Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,744	CE, Litvinenko was a whistleblower, hero or not. Calling him a fraud is simply misdirection, deflection. He was given orders to kill, which he didn't carry out, but exposed his bosses, then Putin. And afterwards convincingly exposed his inhuman crime of 1999. But you probably already know all that and are just trolling/shilling at this point.
	Last edited by Venom; 5th March 2018 at 09:29 PM.

5th March 2018, 09:51 PM	#21
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 15,966	Litvinenko, Alexandr was Boris Berezovski's driver, bodyguard and tool, as we all know.

5th March 2018, 10:36 PM	#22
Elagabalus Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 3,358	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress Litvinenko, Alexandr was Boris Berezovski's driver, bodyguard and tool, as we all know. Wow, just, wow ...
Elagabalus Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 3,358

5th March 2018, 11:05 PM	#23
Venom Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,744	Originally Posted by Elagabalus Wow, just, wow ... Sometimes I think she's parodying the Kremlin lines. Sadly probably not.

5th March 2018, 11:51 PM	#24
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 5,610	I wonder if they're already dead and the "critically ill" part is intended to help flush out the attackers.
ceptimus puzzler Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 5,610

6th March 2018, 01:58 AM	#25
Information Analyst Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 8,451	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger They have benches in car parks? The pics look like a bench outside a strip mall. I stand corrected. I somehow got the impression that it was in the shopping centre car park outside, but looking on Google earth the car park is a multi-storey. We wouldn't call it a "mall," though - far too small. It's not unusual to find benches around the edge of open ground-level car parks next to whatever retail building it is, though.

6th March 2018, 02:00 AM	#26
Information Analyst Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure... Posts: 8,451	Originally Posted by Senex If you have a girl trying on lingerie, suicide should be the last thing on your mind. Only a small subset amongst a sea of male despair.

6th March 2018, 02:08 AM	#28
abaddon Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 18,142	Interesting that Putin has his own fans just like Trump. In certain fans eyes neither can do no wrong, evar.
	__________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes...

6th March 2018, 02:24 AM	#29
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 15,966	Originally Posted by abaddon Interesting that Putin has his own fans just like Trump. In certain fans eyes neither can do no wrong, evar. Yeah, I know this from having my own fans. You should try it some time. Feels funny.

6th March 2018, 03:38 AM	#30
Worm Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2,320	The woman found along with Skripal was his 33-year-old daughter. Russian officials are saying they have 'no information' on what might have caused them to collapse. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43297638
Worm Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 2,320	__________________ "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov Not all cults are bad - I've joined a cult of niceness

6th March 2018, 03:51 AM	#31
Henri McPhee Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Bristol UK Posts: 3,151	Putin as a former KGB man, a bit like Stalin. The Russian secret police have a reputation in the past for bumping off opposition people, and those who provide useful and pointed criticism, or attempt to fight corruption. It's shock horror reporting. The CIA in America is much the same. I still think Putin provides more sane government than that drunk Yeltsin, and he doesn't want to interfere with international trade, like Britain and America. For some unknown reason British and American women seem to be vehemently opposed to Putin. It must be something to do with the female brain operating in straight lines. Russia always was an autocracy.

6th March 2018, 04:03 AM	#32
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 42,478	Originally Posted by Henri McPhee Putin as a former KGB man, a bit like Stalin. The Russian secret police have a reputation in the past for bumping off opposition people, and those who provide useful and pointed criticism, or attempt to fight corruption. It's shock horror reporting. The CIA in America is much the same. I still think Putin provides more sane government than that drunk Yeltsin, and he doesn't want to interfere with international trade, like Britain and America. For some unknown reason British and American women seem to be vehemently opposed to Putin. It must be something to do with the female brain operating in straight lines. Russia always was an autocracy. Funnily enough, I think most people, male and female, are opposed to Putin because he is a murdering megalomaniac.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

6th March 2018, 07:21 AM	#34
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 15,850	Originally Posted by Worm The woman found along with Skripal was his 33-year-old daughter. Russian officials are saying they have 'no information' on what might have caused them to collapse. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43297638 Being his daughter is enlightening. It means poisoning is more likely than poisoning him and his date. Though it still leaves murder/suicide open. But maybe the daughter being the murderer, since poison is often the weapon of choice for women. as well as spies? .
	__________________ Great minds discuss ideas. Medium minds discuss events. Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.

6th March 2018, 03:14 PM	#35
Babbylonian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 11,366	Originally Posted by lionking Funnily enough, I think most people, male and female, are opposed to Putin because he is a murdering megalomaniac. And because shrugging at a dictatorship has never made anybody's life better.

6th March 2018, 04:26 PM	#36
Mikemcc Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: UK Posts: 1,745	Why do so many of these things happen in the UK? Probably the 7th killing, or attempted killing, in 40 years (at least). https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nked-uk-deaths

6th March 2018, 04:35 PM	#37
Venom Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 1,744	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress I think it's very weird that Berezovski's suicide isn't blamed on Putin by the usual suspects who blame him for everything else. It's almost as if they don't want any attention on this "character" (usually the scare quotes should be on suicide, shouldn't they?). Because there was no evidence of foul play at the Berezovski scene and he was probably depressed. Berezovski was a shady character who recommended Putin to the Yeltsin entourage, getting rich off of the backs of the people, and he shouldn't be put on a pedestal, but he was a valuable source of intelligence for a time when he lived in Britain. He had a conscience, unlike the stooges of the current regime who repeatedly deny they did the very same and worse.