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Old 11th May 2018, 03:27 PM   #81
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The whole "took hours out of her day just to harass some black dude for cooking" part plays into the verdict pretty prominently as well. The "many white people are racist" part simply points out that her being racist is not, in any way, far-fetched.
I never said it was far-fetched. But it's also not far-fetched that her petty interference isn't racially motivated, but rather just generic desire to interfere in other people's business.

Quote:
Nobody so far has shown up saying "Oh, yeah, she does this with everyone around." Unlike the Air BnB case, where I can see being suspicious of unknown people carrying items *out* of your neighbor's house, this woman was really going out of her way to **** with someone for little to no reason.
Sure, but racism isn't the only possible motive. White people screw over other white people in petty and vindictive ways as well. The fact that it was a white person and a black person isn't enough to prove it was racism. That's possible, but it's not a given. And we know nothing about her history. We shouldn't read anything in to that ignorance.
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Old 11th May 2018, 03:28 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Any evidence this woman was being prejudice or racist and not just a busy-body (one who pokes their nose in other's business)? Any?
No.

But you can easily take a hundred cases of white people calling police on black people for something ridiculously trivial and quarantine each one, asking in each individual case if there's any specific and irrefutable evidence of intentional racism in this case; and that tactic has been used (and effectively) to rhetorically discredit claims of trends of racial bias - after all, one might say, if we cannot definitively prove racism in this case then it can't fairly be included as part of any set demonstrating a trend or theme of racism...

But that's not true; because the fact there are a hundred cases to be cited of white people calling police on black people for trivial things is an important data point all by itself, there is important context added by taking the cases in the aggregate. And that's why, though maybe to the chagrin of some white people, we are starting to see news headlines that quickly go viral and national every single time the police harass black individuals or groups for stupid, inane reasons, often at the behest of white people. White people may get "tired of hearing about it constantly" but the volume of incidents is a major part of the point that they refuse to get, or only sarcastically pretend to "get" in the hopes that whoever is talking about it will shut up and stop.
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Old 11th May 2018, 03:28 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Nobody so far has shown up saying "Oh, yeah, she does this with everyone around." Unlike the Air BnB case, where I can see being suspicious of unknown people carrying items *out* of your neighbor's house, this woman was really going out of her way to **** with someone for little to no reason.
With the AirBnB case, I think the far bigger issue was what seemed to be a disproportionate police response. Air support for a report of a possible burglary? Police department operating budgets might be a little too high in some places...
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Old 11th May 2018, 03:29 PM   #84
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In summary: Nothing is ever racism. Multiple threads on this site has proven this. Racism is no longer a thing.

Well, that's settled then. Good job everyone.

(yes, this is sarcasm)

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Old 11th May 2018, 03:34 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
With the AirBnB case, I think the far bigger issue was what seemed to be a disproportionate police response. Air support for a report of a possible burglary? Police department operating budgets might be a little too high in some places...
Agreed - and if the neighbor *knew* it was an AirBnB spot, then I'd view it a bit differently. But I haven't read anywhere that she knew that already, and if not, then calling the police, in and of itself, is pretty much being a good neighbor.
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Old 11th May 2018, 03:39 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Agreed - and if the neighbor *knew* it was an AirBnB spot, then I'd view it a bit differently. But I haven't read anywhere that she knew that already, and if not, then calling the police, in and of itself, is pretty much being a good neighbor.
One would hope that someone using AirBnB to rent out their home would let their neighbors know, both to prevent any misunderstandings like this and to give them an extra pair or two of eyes in case the renters turn out to be problematic. Then again, I'm sure there are places where using AirBnB could be an issue with local zoning and HOA rules, so they might try to keep it on the DL if they're not sure.
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Old 11th May 2018, 03:39 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Agreed - and if the neighbor *knew* it was an AirBnB spot, then I'd view it a bit differently. But I haven't read anywhere that she knew that already, and if not, then calling the police, in and of itself, is pretty much being a good neighbor.
Wrong thread, but I saw it reported that the owner had not told her neighbors and this was the first rental. So yeah, probably not racist neighbor. Weird police response, though.
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Old 11th May 2018, 03:41 PM   #88
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If this is the same Oakland then it might explain why fire precautions are in place and why some people might take them very seriously. It doesn't prove anything one way or another but may suggest why what appears to be a minor issue blew up into an argument.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...-oakland-hills
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Old 11th May 2018, 04:13 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
In light of the majority of white women voting for an openly racist President, and the fact that a white woman was hassling a bunch of blacks over a triviality, I'm going to go with racism.
Yes, you certainly do seem to be going with racism--assuming guilt or innocence purely based on skin color.
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Old 11th May 2018, 05:35 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
If this is the same Oakland then it might explain why fire precautions are in place and why some people might take them very seriously. It doesn't prove anything one way or another but may suggest why what appears to be a minor issue blew up into an argument.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...-oakland-hills
Yes, it is, and I mentioned earlier in the thread that Oakland has a history regarding fire.
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Old 11th May 2018, 05:50 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
But that's not true; because the fact there are a hundred cases to be cited of white people calling police on black people for trivial things is an important data point all by itself
No, actually, it isn't. First off, you've got no statistics to back up the number of times it happens. Second, you've got no statistics to compare it too. If white people call the cops on black people, but white people also call the cops on other white people, and black people also call the cops on black people, then to infer discrimination even in aggregate, you would need to compare rates (and even that comparison has complicating factors).

If you had that information, it may well demonstrate exactly what you expect. But you don't actually have that information. So while your suspicions may be correct, you can't actually prove it.
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Old 11th May 2018, 06:09 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Look, I know you're using LEO to mean Law Enforcement Officer but all I can think of is Low Earth Orbit and it's messing me up.
You make it sound like something unusual this time.
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Old 11th May 2018, 06:09 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, actually, it isn't. First off, you've got no statistics to back up the number of times it happens. Second, you've got no statistics to compare it too. If white people call the cops on black people, but white people also call the cops on other white people, and black people also call the cops on black people, then to infer discrimination even in aggregate, you would need to compare rates (and even that comparison has complicating factors).

If you had that information, it may well demonstrate exactly what you expect. But you don't actually have that information. So while your suspicions may be correct, you can't actually prove it.
And sure - there is always a way for the obstinate to rhetorically justify ignoring any message. The tactic of drawing attention to the volume of incidents is not foolproof by any means. However, it does seem to be bringing some people around (at least as far as I've noticed), and so it will and should continue.
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Old 11th May 2018, 06:14 PM   #94
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Here in the Deep Southwest (San Diego) one of the concerns with charcoal is where you dump the still burning coals when you leave. The beach parks have large sections of concrete pipe on end to dump them into. It's something that people can't burn their feet on. I suspect the Oakland park has a similar arrangement in the "charcoal permitted" zone, but NOT in the gas zone.
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Old 11th May 2018, 07:00 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
A white woman called the cops on a black family for barbecuing at a park in Oakland, California. After the family confronted her, she broke down in tears and complained about being harassed.

https://lawandcrime.com/race-relatio...becuing-watch/
I don't get it... is it illegal to have a barbecue in the park? Were they cooking fried chicken or something?
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Old 11th May 2018, 07:06 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Were they cooking fried chicken or something?
How would you fry chicken on a charcoal grill?
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Old 11th May 2018, 07:10 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Here in the Deep Southwest (San Diego) one of the concerns with charcoal is where you dump the still burning coals when you leave. The beach parks have large sections of concrete pipe on end to dump them into. It's something that people can't burn their feet on. I suspect the Oakland park has a similar arrangement in the "charcoal permitted" zone, but NOT in the gas zone.
Over here in the Deep South Pacific, our council kindly provides an electric powered barbecue at the Beach Park that is free for anyone to use.

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Old 11th May 2018, 07:22 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
And sure - there is always a way for the obstinate to rhetorically justify ignoring any message. The tactic of drawing attention to the volume of incidents is not foolproof by any means. However, it does seem to be bringing some people around (at least as far as I've noticed), and so it will and should continue.
And what is the volume of incidents?
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Old 11th May 2018, 07:47 PM   #99
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I once reported folks at my housing development for BBQing where it was not allowed. I simply walked to the security guard and reported it. I didn't wait around to get attention for myself.
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Old 11th May 2018, 07:52 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I once reported folks at my housing development for BBQing where it was not allowed. I simply walked to the security guard and reported it. I didn't wait around to get attention for myself.
Well, there's your mistake. You're supposed to harass everyone for hours, steal another person't ID, and then cry about how mean everyone else is when the cops show up.

(and just so we're all clear, her crying after going out of her way to be a piece of **** is exactly what those "white tears" memes are mocking.)
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Old 11th May 2018, 09:19 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
How would you fry chicken on a charcoal grill?
You've never put a cast-iron skillet on your charcoal BBQ?
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Old 12th May 2018, 01:37 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I don't get it... is it illegal to have a barbecue in the park?
See post 7
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Old 12th May 2018, 02:16 AM   #103
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Stretching foil across the grill was always the preferred method of frying chicken on one so far as I can remember from my childhood. Although I've just recently read it's been shown that the high temperatures associated with grilling, in combination with acidic sauces and marinades and salt, will cause aluminum to leach and microscopically flake into the food. So while it may not seem "traditional", it's probably a lot safer to cook anything on a skillet or a griddle or something like that rather than foil, that you don't intend to put directly on the grill itself.
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Old 12th May 2018, 05:31 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I don't get it... is it illegal to have a barbecue in the park?
No. They were just in the wrong area. I’d say it’s analogous to taking a shortcut across a “Keep off the grass” area. Yeah, the city’d Like you not to, but they’re not going run you in for it. I’m not even sure it has the force of law behind it.
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Old 12th May 2018, 06:45 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You've never put a cast-iron skillet on your charcoal BBQ?
That won't get hot enough for fried chicken. You need flames at the skillet, not glowing coals.

Maybe it would be tried over a flaming wood fire where you could superheat the oil to fry the chicken. Otherwise you would just do the popular grilled chicken over glowing coals.

People doing these outdoor cookouts with charcoal grills (or maybe you say BBQ) are grilling chicken, not creating "fried chicken".
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Old 12th May 2018, 07:25 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
No. They were just in the wrong area. I’d say it’s analogous to taking a shortcut across a “Keep off the grass” area. Yeah, the city’d Like you not to, but they’re not going run you in for it. I’m not even sure it has the force of law behind it.
I'd respectfully disagree, the area has a history of life claiming forest fires, while enforcement may be lax I don't think it's fair to trivialize it this way. It's also been pointed out that carelessly discarded coals are sometimes responsible for killing otherwise healthy trees even when they don't cause fires and that safe disposal facilities are likely to to be available at the correct places. That isn't to say that the woman's actions were correct but the rule that was broken wasn't a entirely arbitrary one as your comment suggests.
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Old 12th May 2018, 07:43 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I'd respectfully disagree, the area has a history of life claiming forest fires, while enforcement may be lax I don't think it's fair to trivialize it this way. It's also been pointed out that carelessly discarded coals are sometimes responsible for killing otherwise healthy trees even when they don't cause fires and that safe disposal facilities are likely to to be available at the correct places. That isn't to say that the woman's actions were correct but the rule that was broken wasn't a entirely arbitrary one as your comment suggests.
I didn't mean to imply it was arbitrary, I meant to convey that it doesn't appear to be illegal.
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Old 12th May 2018, 08:20 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I didn't mean to imply it was arbitrary, I meant to convey that it doesn't appear to be illegal.
Fire prevention regulations frequently fall under formal city ordinance, like cars blocking fire lanes.
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Old 12th May 2018, 10:01 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
In summary: Nothing is ever racism. Multiple threads on this site has proven this. Racism is no longer a thing.

Well, that's settled then. Good job everyone.

(yes, this is sarcasm)
Can you show your workings for this assertion?
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Old 12th May 2018, 11:12 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
No. They were just in the wrong area. I’d say it’s analogous to taking a shortcut across a “Keep off the grass” area. Yeah, the city’d Like you not to, but they’re not going run you in for it. I’m not even sure it has the force of law behind it.
Even worse, it's like being on grass in an park where there are no "keep off the grass" postings or barriers blocking easy access to grassy-covered (or just unpaved) areas.
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Old 12th May 2018, 02:19 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Fire prevention regulations frequently fall under formal city ordinance, like cars blocking fire lanes.
Underlying justification for any given rule aside, there is a difference between "park rules" and "fire prevention regulations". Similar to the rules at public swimming pools. A pool may have a rule against running on the pool deck in order to prevent injury; but it is a rule, not a regulation, law, ordinance, or statute. Visitors who repeatedly break it may be forced to leave the pool or banned from it completely, but nobody could ever be cited, fined, or arrested for running in the pool area, or indeed suffer any negative consequences whatsoever aside from being made to leave by the people in charge on-site.

It likely goes the same with this park. If the horrid scofflaws through their actions actually manage to start an uncontained fire that damages property, of course they may well face legal consequences for that. But otherwise, for simply disregarding a park rule, they could very likely only be asked to leave by park employees (such as there are).
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Old 12th May 2018, 06:37 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Can you show your workings for this assertion?
My "workings" are in the post you quoted. Multiple threads on this very site (it's not like they are hard to find), where so called "skeptics" are arguing that racism is not a thing (unless someone is wearing a Klan robe or an SS uniform), ever.

If you don't know what I'm saying, you're either blind or willfully ignorant.

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Old 12th May 2018, 06:51 PM   #113
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Is barbarcuing actually allowed in the park?
Why wouldn't it be?
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Old 12th May 2018, 08:03 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Environmentalists.
Zing.
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Old 13th May 2018, 01:13 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
My "workings" are in the post you quoted. Multiple threads on this very site (it's not like they are hard to find), where so called "skeptics" are arguing that racism is not a thing (unless someone is wearing a Klan robe or an SS uniform), ever.

If you don't know what I'm saying, you're either blind or willfully ignorant.
Oh don't get me wrong, I know exactly what you are saying but I think it's bollocks and I'd like you provide links to the multiple posts where sceptics are saying that racism "is not a thing (unless someone is wearing a Klan robe or an SS uniform). I'd like you to prove the underlying assertion you are making that this is a racist forum.

You made the claim, you know what follows.
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Old 13th May 2018, 07:10 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
My "workings" are in the post you quoted. Multiple threads on this very site (it's not like they are hard to find), where so called "skeptics" are arguing that racism is not a thing (unless someone is wearing a Klan robe or an SS uniform), ever.

If you don't know what I'm saying, you're either blind or willfully ignorant.
But no one is saying this, anywhere on the site. What is being argued is that anytime a black person is accused of something, the accusation need not be racist in nature. That needs to be shown, not just asserted or assumed.

Starbucks: pretty much agreed that the manager was likely racist. White customers were allowed use of facilities that the black men were denied. Police treatment was arguable.

Oakland Barbecue: woman seems to be busybody. No evidence whatsoever that it had anything to do with race. You are unfamiliar with this type of person?

NY shoppers: the accused throws down the race card because she was questioned. Berard did not even report that the clerks said a word about race, or that she and her daughter were treated differently than whites. The store, however, publicly claimed that one of the women had berated the clerks race, class, and appearance.

Yale sleeper: another busybody and cops possibly being jerks. Not a word breathed that the problem was based on race. News flash: cops are sometimes jerks to people of all races.

The common element is that a white accusing a black of anything is being construed as racism. That is not a skeptical POV, and it should rightly be challenged. If you think you're psychic and can distance-read motivations, hey, prove away. Starting with the assumption that racism must be the motivating factor in these altercations is racist in itself, and is not flattering to those who claim it must be so.
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Old 13th May 2018, 07:21 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Underlying justification for any given rule aside, there is a difference between "park rules" and "fire prevention regulations". Similar to the rules at public swimming pools. A pool may have a rule against running on the pool deck in order to prevent injury; but it is a rule, not a regulation, law, ordinance, or statute. Visitors who repeatedly break it may be forced to leave the pool or banned from it completely, but nobody could ever be cited, fined, or arrested for running in the pool area, or indeed suffer any negative consequences whatsoever aside from being made to leave by the people in charge on-site.

It likely goes the same with this park. If the horrid scofflaws through their actions actually manage to start an uncontained fire that damages property, of course they may well face legal consequences for that. But otherwise, for simply disregarding a park rule, they could very likely only be asked to leave by park employees (such as there are).
Yes, open fire prohibitions typically are ordinance/law. The exceptions are made for 'designated areas'. That is where it gets a little cloudy. If you are employing an unapproved fire, are you guilty of violating the open fire ordinance or just the park policy? I'm not sure.
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Old 13th May 2018, 08:50 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
And sure - there is always a way for the obstinate to rhetorically justify ignoring any message. The tactic of drawing attention to the volume of incidents is not foolproof by any means. However, it does seem to be bringing some people around (at least as far as I've noticed), and so it will and should continue.
It has quite the opposite effect on some.
"Busybody gets aggravated about people violating minor ordinance" -must be racist
"Someone overreacts to slightly sketchy behavior on part of couple of teenage boys"- must be racism
"Unhinged girl calls campus police again on sleeping student"- must be racism

Assertions made with no other evidence than the complainant was white. Asserted with no evidence that these kinds of things happen with any less frequency in same-race situations.

I have made three noise complaints for excessively loud music to the P.D. Over the last eighteen years. Coincidentally, I have hit the racial trifecta regarding these complaints- one on a house occupied by a black family, one a white family, and one a Latino family. That I might be labelled "racist" for the complaints made about the minority occupied houses would pretty much cause me to cease to give a **** about what someone chooses to perceive as a racist act.

When someone is jumping at shadows (even if they are suffering from PTSD) I soon begin to disregard their judgement.
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Old 13th May 2018, 11:38 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
It has quite the opposite effect on some.
"Busybody gets aggravated about people violating minor ordinance" -must be racist
"Someone overreacts to slightly sketchy behavior on part of couple of teenage boys"- must be racism
"Unhinged girl calls campus police again on sleeping student"- must be racism

Assertions made with no other evidence than the complainant was white. Asserted with no evidence that these kinds of things happen with any less frequency in same-race situations.
And again, it's not each individual incident that's the point, but rather the volume. That black people face the prospect of having their everyday, normal, completely mundane lives upturned - if even for just a few hours - by the threat of arrest, incarceration, or worse because some random white bystander decided that their completely innocuous actions were "behaving furtively", or they were somewhere they "don't belong", or they were "breaking the park rules", or otherwise "acting suspiciously" and used that decision to justify an attempt to assert authority over them - and then, when rebuffed, felt empowered to call police to vicariously reinforce that authority for them.

There is a chance for anybody, of any race, to encounter a fanatical busybody who will call the police on them for nothing. It could happen to me. But I'm white, so like dying because I was unfortunately standing in the exact spot that a crashing plane happens to impact the ground, it's such a relatively remote possibility that I don't go through my daily life expecting it at any moment and prepared to deal with it. On the other hand it happens to African Americans so often - and they so often have to deal with a public with no insight that will insist they "must have done something" that makes them responsible for what happened - that they're developing an instinct for automatically recording these commonplace confrontations from random white people over trivial things because they expect things to escalate as a matter of course and are tired of being blamed.
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Old 13th May 2018, 12:15 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, actually, it isn't. First off, you've got no statistics to back up the number of times it happens. Second, you've got no statistics to compare it too. If white people call the cops on black people, but white people also call the cops on other white people, and black people also call the cops on black people, then to infer discrimination even in aggregate, you would need to compare rates (and even that comparison has complicating factors).

If you had that information, it may well demonstrate exactly what you expect. But you don't actually have that information. So while your suspicions may be correct, you can't actually prove it.
This.
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