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Old 21st May 2018, 03:31 PM   #1
Graham2001
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'Lucky I had tatts': Cruise security nab wrong man

This story shows why 'Believe the Victim' is wrong.


Quote:
A father wrongfully accused, bashed and "interrogated" on a cruise ship was only offered a free meal in compensation after security realised they had picked up the wrong man.

John Sun was on a Carnival Cruise ship to New Caledonia with his wife Sherry and daughter Bella, when he became the victim of a shocking attack.


There was a knock on their cabin door one night, and when Mr Sun opened the door, he said, a man pushed him against the wall and asked if Mr Sun had exposed himself to the man's daughter.


"I didn't know how to react to that, thinking it was some kind of joke, but at the same time it didn't seem like a joke," Mr Sun said.


Mr Sun called security, but was detained himself.


He said he was refused medical assistance and was questioned by security officers for 90 minutes.

In this case the 'security officers' after 'identifying' the 'perpetrator' showed the pictures of the father of the accuser who went and assaulted the wrong person.


https://www.msn.com/g00/en-au/news/a...6CU?li=AAgfYrC
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Old 21st May 2018, 03:56 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
This story shows why 'Believe the Victim' is wrong.





In this case the 'security officers' after 'identifying' the 'perpetrator' showed the pictures of the father of the accuser who went and assaulted the wrong person.


https://www.msn.com/g00/en-au/news/a...6CU?li=AAgfYrC
I do hope the alleged (real) molester is arrested and jailed long time and the attacked and functionally arrested sues for around the cost of at least two of the line's ships - and wins!!!!!
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Old 21st May 2018, 04:08 PM   #3
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
This story shows why 'Believe the Victim' is wrong.
Huh? The ship security identified the incorrect person on the security footage, how is this a reason not to believe the victim who really was offended against, just by someone other then the guy that was originally identified by ship security?
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Old 21st May 2018, 04:57 PM   #4
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My cynical side is all too willing to believe that security knew darn well which crew member was the real exposer, and that they knew they'd be fired if they identified him as a crew member. It's kind of like how no crew member has ever had norovirus on a cruise ship.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 05:16 AM   #5
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How did the father know whose cabin to go to, and how which passenger to assault?
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Old 22nd May 2018, 05:43 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How did the father know whose cabin to go to, and how which passenger to assault?
Read the article and all will be revealed.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 08:36 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
This story shows why 'Believe the Victim' is wrong.





In this case the 'security officers' after 'identifying' the 'perpetrator' showed the pictures of the father of the accuser who went and assaulted the wrong person.


https://www.msn.com/g00/en-au/news/a...6CU?li=AAgfYrC
Why is MSN having something that happen back in December being news this month?

It doesn't even update the court case that was occurring back in March.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 09:09 AM   #8
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I suspect Carnival, a cruise line I use quite frequently, is going to be giving out a large settlement soon. They were so obviously wrong on many fronts -revealing the accused's cabin number to the victim's father, misidentifying the accused being the two biggest- that I'm amazed all they did to make up for it was offer a free meal. I've gotten a free cruise for less hassle with security than that. I bought VIP tickets for a Journey concert on board and was not allowed to enter the VIP section despite having the proper credentials. It was sorted out as it turns out the security guard was new and didn't know what he was doing. If I was so obviously wrongly accused of such a heinous crime and basically allowed to be assaulted by the victim's father, I think I might own the damn ship after that!
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Old 22nd May 2018, 09:51 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Huh? The ship security identified the incorrect person on the security footage, how is this a reason not to believe the victim who really was offended against, just by someone other then the guy that was originally identified by ship security?

The victim identified the wrong person.

From the link in the OP: "...daughter was shown a passport-style set of photos, from which she wrongly identified Mr Sun as her alleged offender.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 10:05 AM   #10
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The victim did what eyewitnesses often do: React as if one of the available choices must be the correct choice, and then choosing the one that seems closest to being correct.

If ship security pre-selected the set of photos, and didn't include the real perpetrator, then the misidentification is as much their fault as it is the victim's. Though actually I wouldn't blame the victim at all, here. Ship security stuffed up the job from start to finish, it sounds like.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 11:46 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The victim did what eyewitnesses often do: React as if one of the available choices must be the correct choice, and then choosing the one that seems closest to being correct.

If ship security pre-selected the set of photos, and didn't include the real perpetrator, then the misidentification is as much their fault as it is the victim's. Though actually I wouldn't blame the victim at all, here. Ship security stuffed up the job from start to finish, it sounds like.
Exactly! I believe this is now well established. If a eye witness is shown 10 pictures they often choose the person who looks most like the guilty individual, particularly if there is any resemblance at all (e.g. beards, thin face, or very often, aspects of race or ethnicity), rather than hold out for an exact match. I believe it is also true that if an eye witness is given a large number of photos to page through ("mug shots") they will become less and less careful as they approach the end of the albums and begin to "finger' people who they would not have chosen if their picture had been one of the first reviewed. "Well it must be one of these people and I only have 40 left to go... It MUST be one of the ones left..."

If I am recalling correctly, the proper protocol is to hand the eye witness pictures one at at time, randomly, and to repeat pictures so the witness does not feel as if their choices are becoming increasing narrow and therefore feel that they must select one of the pictures remaining. And of course the pictures must include people who superficially resemble the suspect (no presenting pictures of one black dude and 19 pictures of white people), and no presenting pictures of one houseless guy in tattered clothes and 19 people dressed in choir robes.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 12:53 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The victim did what eyewitnesses often do: React as if one of the available choices must be the correct choice, and then choosing the one that seems closest to being correct.

If ship security pre-selected the set of photos, and didn't include the real perpetrator, then the misidentification is as much their fault as it is the victim's. Though actually I wouldn't blame the victim at all, here. Ship security stuffed up the job from start to finish, it sounds like.
The rate is about 1 wrong for every 3 right. Not perfect - but a good place to start.
Failing that lead - how do you propose how to identify a suspect in this case given that the cameras were useless?
Please give specific details.

NOTE: The security people were incredibly wrong with everything they did after the photo-ID.
One must always take witness IDs with a grain of salt.
They are a place to start but corroborating evidence is absolutely essential before treating the identified person as anything other than "a person of interest".
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Old 23rd May 2018, 03:23 PM   #13
Graham2001
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
NOTE: The security people were incredibly wrong with everything they did after the photo-ID.
One must always take witness IDs with a grain of salt.
They are a place to start but corroborating evidence is absolutely essential before treating the identified person as anything other than "a person of interest".

Which is not the procedure on most US Universities in similar cases.


First step is to believe the victim.
Second is to identify the perpetrator from the victim statement.
Third is to inform the perpetrator of their guilt
Four is to punish the perpetrator


Only by this means can the victim be given justice and the perpetrator receive the process they are due.


And it would appear that the security guards in this case were following that process. The only defense as Mr Sun found out is to prove that the victim identified the wrong perpetrator.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 03:30 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Huh? The ship security identified the incorrect person on the security footage, how is this a reason not to believe the victim who really was offended against, just by someone other then the guy that was originally identified by ship security?
No, the victim picked him out of a line up of Asian (I presume) passengers' photos, carelessly showing the room number of the falsely accused to the girl's father who then accosted the falsely accused man in his room.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 03:32 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
My cynical side is all too willing to believe that security knew darn well which crew member was the real exposer, and that they knew they'd be fired if they identified him as a crew member. It's kind of like how no crew member has ever had norovirus on a cruise ship.
Not what happened either though it could have been a crew member. The security was called after the father attacked the innocent man. The security person then said something to the fact all Asians look alike.
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