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Old 25th May 2018, 01:51 PM   #201
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Back to topic. I noticed that Sterling Brown had his hands out of his pockets earlier, and it was like 30 seconds to a minute after he put his hands in his pockets that the question and takedown occurred. Before that, no one was paying much attention.
Bottom line: The cop felt disrespected, was angry about it, and thus he manufactured an excuse to use violence. It's little different from a violent jerk in a bar turning an accidental bump into something worthy of a beatdown...well, except that we're supposed to expect better from police officers on duty than we do from a drunk idiot in a bar.
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Old 25th May 2018, 02:38 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...is that the argument you intend to use in a court of law to defend yourself?

No, my defense would be that I heard/felt something wrong, stopped to investigate and found my tire to be flat.

And no, I didn't notice the scofflaw illegally parking in a handicapped spot.

Seems you have no sense of humor.


Seems Brown had a legal obligation to comply with the officer's request to produce his license.

"Because (in the US, at least) you have a legal obligation to produce both a valid driverís license and vehicle registration when asked to by the police; in most states, you must also carry proof of valid insurance."

from

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-the-pol...u-were-stopped

so now we have more than just illegal parking
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Old 25th May 2018, 02:55 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Seems Brown had a legal obligation to comply with the officer's request to produce his license.

"Because (in the US, at least) you have a legal obligation to produce both a valid driverís license and vehicle registration when asked to by the police; in most states, you must also carry proof of valid insurance."

from

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-the-pol...u-were-stopped

so now we have more than just illegal parking
And he did give the officer his license. That's what the officer was comparing when he asked Brown his name.
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Old 25th May 2018, 02:59 PM   #204
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Gosh, if only there was evidence within the first two minutes of the video in the article linked to in the very first post of this thread that he did, in fact, produce his driver's license...


I shouldn't be surprised, though. It seems that a lot of people looking to make excuses for police misconduct haven't watched the video. They'd probably be taken aback by the officer being openly hostile from the very start of the interaction.
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Old 25th May 2018, 03:08 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I don't understand your point. Yes, it is wrong for a cop to engage in a pissing match. Likely illegal, although I think that the police could at least put up an argument for Brown resisting and whatnot.

Brown was dead in the wrong right out of the gate, starting with his privileged princess parking, then copping an attitude when called on it. No, Brown doesn't own the streets at 2AM either, despite his obvious belief. You may think 'non-submissive' describes his behavior. No, he was defiant and absolutely picking a fight when he was 100% in the wrong.

But none of this is really in dispute. Brown was a stupid and wrong. The cops were stupid and wrong. Brown was not justified in his stupidity, especially in refusing to take his hands out of his pockets, coupled with the ominous 'I have something in my hands'. The cops may have been justified, but IMO for PR reasons are eating humble pie.

The problem I see is that this is yet another 'while black' thread that appears to have nothing whatsoever to do with race. This has to do with cop powers and their abuse. Not the same thing, even though it is politically correct to interpret these stories that way.
To your last point, I agree. Too much is made of the race dynamics here. The important thing is that a cop abused a citizen, not just that a white cop abused a black citizen. Once we can manage to find agreement that the cop was abusive, we can deal with some sort of societal issue related to it.

On the subject of Brown's behavior, I really don't care if people say things that make other people mad. Brown didn't threaten. He didn't "push past" the officer. He didn't refuse to give the officer his license. He didn't try to get into his car. He didn't do anything other than talk.

The audio on my PC where I was listening wasn't very good, so I didn't catch one thing that Brown said until I watched a captioned video today. He said "Don't touch me." and a second later, accuses the officer of touching him, which the officer admits to.

This is where the department's lawyer starts having a problem. That whole touching thing is a no-no. Really. Brown isn't doing anything, so there's no need for touching. Any time you're in a conflict, and you lay hands on the other person, you are on thin legal ice. It could be battery, and the officer admits that he did it. Ruh-roh. Sure, cops are allowed to lay hands on citizens when they have to, but at that point he clearly did not have to. There was nothing happening.

Later on, he says something that the lawyers will deem even more cringeworthy. He says that if Brown hadn't been such a "dick", he would have just said, "Have a nice day, ya know?" Oh, officer, that's not good. You just admitted that your actions were not motivated by anything at all related to your job. Not that it really matters a whole lot. Everyone can already see that, but it's the sort of thing that might make a sympathetic juror in the civil trial give up the denial.

Here's a couple of minutes of video where a retired cop who now trains police analyzes the confrontation. He doesn't praise the officers involved, and his criticism starts with the very first sentence.

https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news...wn-taser-video

I wonder if anyone can find a video clip remotely like it, from a respectable source, that offers a contrasting view that is supportive of the officers involved. Sean Hannity doesn't count. I'd like to see "the other side" from a person that could be reasonably considered an authority on police behavior. I don't think anyone can find one that gives more than tepid support.


Could Brown have handled the situation better? Honestly, I would say "a little", but Brown was not 100% in the wrong here. Even on the parking thing, it did no harm nor was it at all likely that it could do any harm. Yes, it was ticket worthy, but that's it. It's not a big deal.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 25th May 2018 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 25th May 2018, 03:40 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Gosh, if only there was evidence within the first two minutes of the video in the article linked to in the very first post of this thread that he did, in fact, produce his driver's license...


I shouldn't be surprised, though. It seems that a lot of people looking to make excuses for police misconduct haven't watched the video. They'd probably be taken aback by the officer being openly hostile from the very start of the interaction.
I could not see a clear transfer but from the audio it looks like he did produce his license.

I was wrong,
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Old 25th May 2018, 05:56 PM   #207
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It is pretty clear black men cannot have pockets around cops. I propose we outlaw pockets for black men in order to save their lives from white cops that just can't help themselves from abusing or murdering black men that have pockets.
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Old 25th May 2018, 06:48 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
It is pretty clear black men cannot have pockets around cops. I propose we outlaw pockets for black men in order to save their lives from white cops that just can't help themselves from abusing or murdering black men that have pockets.

Makes perfect sense.

It is, after all, for their own good.
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Old 25th May 2018, 07:30 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
It is pretty clear black men cannot have pockets around cops. I propose we outlaw pockets for black men in order to save their lives from white cops that just can't help themselves from abusing or murdering black men that have pockets.
A much simpler solution would be to keep your hands out your pockets when dealing with police.


My initial reaction when I first heard about this incident was "Jesus Christ, why can't the police stop doing stupid **** like this. It only worsens the public perspective of them and makes more people stop trusting and supporting them."

Then the video comes out, and as in so many cases like this before, the media and their regressive allies blew the story completely out of proportion. I learned that a wealthy professional athlete wasn't an innocent victim of racist police brutality, but that he was a self-entitled jackass with a chip on his shoulder.

However, I did learn an important lesson. This type of story is actually beneficial to me and there is no need to counter the "all police are racist bullies" narrative. Like me, people all over the country are going to watch the video and learn that major media outlets and politicians have an agenda to push and stop trusting them. It also improves the likelihood of keeping Republicans in power.
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Old 25th May 2018, 07:43 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
However, I did learn an important lesson. This type of story is actually beneficial to me and there is no need to counter the "all police are racist bullies" narrative. Like me, people all over the country are going to watch the video and learn that major media outlets and politicians have an agenda to push and stop trusting them. It also improves the likelihood of keeping Republicans in power.
This point of view seems floridly delusional.
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Old 25th May 2018, 07:46 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
No, my defense would be that I heard/felt something wrong, stopped to investigate and found my tire to be flat.
...so you intend to commit perjury. Gotcha. You keep digging that hole.
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Old 25th May 2018, 07:54 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...so you intend to commit perjury. Gotcha. You keep digging that hole.
Any crime is worth committing when attempting to punish the inconsiderate.
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Old 25th May 2018, 08:43 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
It is pretty clear black men cannot have pockets around cops. I propose we outlaw pockets for black men in order to save their lives from white cops that just can't help themselves from abusing or murdering black men that have pockets.
Well, if the answer to school mass shootings is to restrict doors, then this makes sense as well
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Old 25th May 2018, 10:28 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
A much simpler solution would be to keep your hands out your pockets when dealing with police.

In January? Did you see the snow? When they've kept you standing around outside of your car for 20 minutes, for illegal parking?
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Old 25th May 2018, 11:25 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
It is pretty clear black men cannot have pockets around cops. I propose we outlaw pockets for black men in order to save their lives from white cops that just can't help themselves from abusing or murdering black men that have pockets.
Hey Travis, got a question for ya.

In the video I posted earlier, a black cop takes four bullets from a black man after repeatedly asking the black man to remove his hands from his pockets.

Do you consider the black cop a racist?

Just curious.

I'll post it here again for your convenience.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

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Old 26th May 2018, 03:37 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Breaking even a minor law will likely prompt the police to approach you.

Refusing to obey basic commands like taking your hands out of your pockets isn't a good idea.

Why not just apologize for the parking deal, do what the officer says and move on with your evening?
The trouble is that trying to obey some commands - like taking your hands out of your pockets can get you shot.

There are lots of examples.
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Old 26th May 2018, 03:43 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
He also felt entitled enough to ignore an officer telling him to take his hands out of his pocket for the safety of every officer there.
Others have already commented on how ludicrous this was, as in the several preceding minutes, the officers didn't are at all about Sterling's hands. IIRC, he had put his hands in his pockets and taken them out before. But suddenly, it became an issue.

The more salient point is that "take your hands out of your pocket" is a set-up for a police killing. I thought everybody around here already knew that. The scenario is as follows:
Cop #1: take you hands out of your pocket!
<suspect complies>
Cop #2: he has a gun!
Cops #3, #4, #5: BLAM BLAM BLAM!!!
It doesn't necessarily take different cops; in the Philando Castile case, the officer in question played the parts of cop#1, cop#2 and cop#3. I'm also not saying it is a deliberate, conscious setup that has been pre-arranged between the cops, but nevertheless, it is a setup for a deadly scenario.

In the case of Sterling Brown, he was surrounded by six cops at the moment he was asked to take his hands out of his pockets. It only takes one twitchy cop to yell "gun!" (cop #2 in the above scenario) to turn this scenario deadly for Sterling. And "twitchy" is the innocent explanation, it could also be a malevolent cop.

So let's do the math. Let's call p the probability that a random cop is twitchy.
With one cop around, the probability that a suspect ends up dead is p.
With six cops around, the probability that a suspect comes out alive equals the probability that none of them are twitchy, so that's (1-p)^6, and thus the probability to end up dead is 1 - (1-p)^6. So let's try some values:
p one cop six cops
0.500.500.98
0.200.200.74
0.100.100.47
0.050.050.26
0.020.020.11
0.010.010.06
and for smaller values of p, you can simply take 6p as a good approximation of the value in the rightmost column.

Now, we don't know the actual value of p, but it's apparently common enough that juries find this perfectly acceptable behavior by cops. Moreover, from Sterling Brown's perspective there's ample suspicion that at least the initial cop was itching for a confrontation, e.g., that he didn't believe his name when he said it, and that he kept the four or five squad cars that turned up around even though he only needed one. He had real reason to fear for his life with six cops around him.
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Old 26th May 2018, 03:49 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Much more often not complying with commands is going to end badly for the perp.

Considering that fact, describing not complying with basic commands as exercising an "excess of caution" is confusing to me.

I don't see a person who is acting like he is afraid of the situation he is in. I see a guy acting like he couldn't care less and doesnt have to abide.
How does that make a difference? A cop could see someone stabbing an orphan in front of him and as long as the perpetrator is not a risk, the cop's job is to arrest them and bring them to justice, not to administer the cop's idea of justice.

being mouthy in front of a cop who has little reason to suspect you of a crime shouldn't have anything to do with it.

Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Cops should've been like "Oh, well you're not going to show us your hands? Have a nice evening then sir"
No, they should have explained how to comply without getting shot - see post below:





Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
It's also a classic example of after-the-fact justification.

Make sure you move at the correct speed, not too fast or too slow - and the definitions of "too fast" and "too slow" are not communicated ahead of time, and in fact maximum acceptable speed may even be slower than minimum acceptable speed.

Levar Jones? Moved "too fast", shot.

Philando Castile? Moved "too fast", shot dead.

This guy? Moved "too slow", tased.

John Crawford III? Moved "too slow", shot dead.

Trayvon Martin? First moved "too slow", and then when he noticed someone stalking him, moved "too fast". Shot dead, murderer spent no time in jail, police chief repeatedly defended him publicly.

Tamir Rice? Didn't run, so that's "too slow", but somehow also moved "too fast" to drop toy gun. Shot dead.

Eric Garner? "Too slow", choked.

It's almost exactly as if there's really no correct speed at all.
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Old 26th May 2018, 04:54 AM   #219
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Don't forget that when dealing with multiple cops, the difference between too fast and too slow may be different. One cop's "Too slow! *THUMP* *THUMP* *TAZE*", may be another cop's "Too fast! *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM*".

When dealing with four or five cops like in the video, the odds of making all of them happy approaches zero.
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Old 26th May 2018, 05:12 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Don't forget that when dealing with multiple cops, the difference between too fast and too slow may be different. One cop's "Too slow! *THUMP* *THUMP* *TAZE*", may be another cop's "Too fast! *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM*".

When dealing with four or five cops like in the video, the odds of making all of them happy approaches zero.
Which is Mumbles's point.

I suppose it is too much to hold US cops from a two-horse town like Milwaukee to the same standards that one would expect in any other developed country, even including the rather notorious CRS
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Old 26th May 2018, 06:08 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Any crime is worth committing when attempting to punish the inconsiderate.
Well, I could block him in and call the cops.

And it's criminally inconsiderate.

And I am using the definition of crime to be an act punishable by the state, so I don't want to hear that parking in a handicapped spot without the proper authority is not a crime, only a parking violation. It's a crime.

Non violent civil disobedience or parking in a handicapped spot without authority?

Where is your moral compass?

I know where mine is.

I consider my proposed scenario to be the lesser of the two evils.
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Old 26th May 2018, 09:04 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Non violent civil disobedience or parking in a handicapped spot without authority?
1. You apparently don't know what civil disobedience is.
2. Restating a childish premise does not make it any less childish.
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Old 26th May 2018, 09:22 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post

(snip)

Sterling was co-operating, he gave his name immediately when asked, then the officer lost his ****.

(snip)
After reading your posts, it seems to me that you and others may genuinely "believe" this. Since we are in an alleged "skeptics forum," though, I thought that maybe I should try to be helpful and point out the following.

In the audio in the released video Mr. Brown is actually asked for his name three times before he finally gives it, with approximately nine seconds elapsing from the time he is first asked to when he actually answers.
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Old 26th May 2018, 09:45 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Shepherd View Post
After reading your posts, it seems to me that you and others may genuinely "believe" this. Since we are in an alleged "skeptics forum," though, I thought that maybe I should try to be helpful and point out the following.

In the audio in the released video Mr. Brown is actually asked for his name three times before he finally gives it, with approximately nine seconds elapsing from the time he is first asked to when he actually answers.
And? During which of those nine seconds did he become guilty of anything more than being frustrated with an openly hostile police officer?
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Old 26th May 2018, 10:06 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
And? During which of those nine seconds did he become guilty of anything more than being frustrated with an openly hostile police officer?
I think Shepherd's point is that there are certain facts that are in evidence, and when we talk about this, we should stick to them. It was said that he immediately answered when asked his name. That didn't happen.

Of course, we should look at what actually happened during that time. I believe that Brown's response, when asked his name, was actually, "Don't touch me", because that was the point at which the cop initiated contact with Brown. Also, it we want to understand Brown's state of mind, it might be informative to realize that at the time the cop asked Brown his name, he was holding Brown's driver's license at the time.

The exact timing might be a little bit off. I don't have a transcript, and I can't understand everything in the audio. Whatever it is, though, we should endeavor to be as accurate as possible when stating facts. So, when someone says that Brown didn't give the officer his license, we correct that. He did give the officer his license. When someone says Brown immediately answered the question, we correct that. He said something else before answering the question. By getting the facts right, we can understand what really happened.
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Old 26th May 2018, 03:58 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Where is your moral compass?
...I would never ever commit perjury. Where is your moral compass?
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Old 26th May 2018, 04:02 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Shepherd View Post
After reading your posts, it seems to me that you and others may genuinely "believe" this. Since we are in an alleged "skeptics forum," though, I thought that maybe I should try to be helpful and point out the following.

In the audio in the released video Mr. Brown is actually asked for his name three times before he finally gives it, with approximately nine seconds elapsing from the time he is first asked to when he actually answers.
...it would be appreciated that if you are going to quote me to try and "make a point" that you not snip the context to make it seem like I'm saying something I'm not. My entire quote:

Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
Why? You don't think that police deal with people that get angry all the time? People get pissed off. Thats a fact of life. The officer successfully managed to de-escalate. Sterling was co-operating, he gave his name immediately when asked, then the officer lost his ****. The officer lost control of the scene when he got emotional and stopped trying to listen. That isn't on Brown.
I've conceded that the encounter started as a pissing match. In context: "immediately" means after the situation de-escalated, which was the point that Brown was co-operating. The officer got Brown to the point where he was co-operating (although that was more Brown deciding to calm down than anything the officer did). Then the officer went and ********** it up. That's my point.
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Old 26th May 2018, 05:47 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...it would be appreciated that if you are going to quote me to try and "make a point" that you not snip the context to make it seem like I'm saying something I'm not. My entire quote:



I've conceded that the encounter started as a pissing match. In context: "immediately" means after the situation de-escalated, which was the point that Brown was co-operating. The officer got Brown to the point where he was co-operating (although that was more Brown deciding to calm down than anything the officer did). Then the officer went and ********** it up. That's my point.

I wonder if the cop called in the car's plates before Brown came out of the store? That would be normal procedure if he was suspicious about a car parked askew of two spaces in front of a store entrance at 2:00 in the morning, wouldn't it?

Could he have had an idea of whose car it was before Brown ever came out?
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Old 26th May 2018, 06:00 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I wonder if the cop called in the car's plates before Brown came out of the store? That would be normal procedure if he was suspicious about a car parked askew of two spaces in front of a store entrance at 2:00 in the morning, wouldn't it?

Could he have had an idea of whose car it was before Brown ever came out?
I've got to think that even this cop wouldn't be so brazenly stupid as to call for an audience to watch him harass a basketball player.
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Old 26th May 2018, 07:21 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I've got to think that even this cop wouldn't be so brazenly stupid as to call for an audience to watch him harass a basketball player.

In Milwaukee? Where they elected David Clarke as Sheriff for fifteen years?

He could sell tickets and set up a concession stand.

Nailing a basketball player would be like a trophy.

His only mistake was that he kept the camera on ...

and let Brown live through the encounter.
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Last edited by quadraginta; 26th May 2018 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 26th May 2018, 08:07 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I've got an appropriate 'while black' for this one:

'Being an Entitled, Arrogant, Aggressive Nitwit While Black.'

Minorities face real racism and unfair treatment on the daily. Thie OP story is not one of these times. What does a story like this demonstrate? That cops will apologize if it turns out the suspect is a local celebrity? PR 101. So what?
Do you really think that because he is black and famous that he doesn't get this ***** too? That's why he had the attitude. That's why black people run.

I know a cop who booked someone for exactly the same thing. She wasn't very popular at her work place after that. The rest of her colleagues thought she was being a nitpicking ****.
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Old 26th May 2018, 08:09 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
In Milwaukee? Where they elected David Clarke as Sheriff for fifteen years?
That's all you had to say. I concede the point.
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Old 26th May 2018, 08:22 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I wonder if the cop called in the car's plates before Brown came out of the store? That would be normal procedure if he was suspicious about a car parked askew of two spaces in front of a store entrance at 2:00 in the morning, wouldn't it?

Could he have had an idea of whose car it was before Brown ever came out?
Near the end of the video he can be seen discussing that he found out Brown played for the Bucs only after Brown said it, after he was tased.
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Old 26th May 2018, 09:51 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Near the end of the video he can be seen discussing that he found out Brown played for the Bucs only after Brown said it, after he was tased.

I wasn't really referring to Brown's status as a b'ball player. Just to his identification. Could the cop have already known that the owner of the vehicle was named Brown even before the guy came out of the store?
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Old 26th May 2018, 10:07 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Given that it only takes one cop to yell "Gun!" upon seeing anything or nothing in a "suspect's" hand (particularly if that hand is black), mortal terror would be a reasonable response to the demand of "show me your hands." I'd imagine the pressure of the fight or flight response increasing with the arrival of each new potential murderer.
I yawn at this level of hyperbole. And so do most. I suggest changing tactics.
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Old 26th May 2018, 10:09 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
It is pretty clear black men cannot have pockets around cops. I propose we outlaw pockets for black men in order to save their lives from white cops that just can't help themselves from abusing or murdering black men that have pockets.
Go up to a stranger in a black neighborhood act pissy and then put your hands in your pockets. You will see this isn't a racial issue by a self preservation one.
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Old 26th May 2018, 10:12 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Do you really think that because he is black and famous that he doesn't get this ***** too? That's why he had the attitude. That's why black people run.

I know a cop who booked someone for exactly the same thing. She wasn't very popular at her work place after that. The rest of her colleagues thought she was being a nitpicking ****.
Maybe if they changed tactics they would get better results?

Seems having a chip on your shoulder doesn't work out too well.
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Old 26th May 2018, 10:34 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Maybe if they changed tactics they would get better results?
...who is this "they" that you are talking about?
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Old 26th May 2018, 11:19 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I yawn at this level of hyperbole. And so do most. I suggest changing tactics.
You might want to start paying some *********** attention then. Not only will police officers murder an unarmed "suspect" (even someone of whom they don't have reasonable suspicion) but they will in most cases completely get away with it. And it's not entirely a question of race because white "suspects" have been straight-up murdered as well because a police officer thinks that they might be in danger from a weapon they don't even know exists.

You can continue blaming it on me or others who speak truths you don't want to face, but that's your problem, not mine.
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Old 26th May 2018, 11:59 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I wasn't really referring to Brown's status as a b'ball player. Just to his identification. Could the cop have already known that the owner of the vehicle was named Brown even before the guy came out of the store?
Ah. Good point. Only the police department knows for sure. (I'm assuming that there would be a record of running the plate.)
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