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Old 21st August 2017, 12:33 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
https://www.baltimorebrew.com/2017/0...re-vandalized/

So far, quite a few varied monuments have been destroyed or vandalized. I think this is going to go on for a while.
I dunno mate, that seems like slippery slope thinking to me.
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Old 21st August 2017, 12:40 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I've no idea what this post is related to at this point. Could you refresh my memory?
You moving goalposts. First you said no one was saying that all monuments should be kept, then when it was pointed out that people were certainly saying that, you said that you were not. There is the convenient back button on quoted posts.
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Old 21st August 2017, 12:47 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
I dunno mate, that seems like slippery slope thinking to me.
If the shoe fits...
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Old 21st August 2017, 12:48 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I think you stretch it a tad to say they fought for what they thought was right, particularly in the case of Viet Nam. I'm of that generation (and a chicken-poop draft dodging coward by some standards) and have, over the past fifty years met not-less-than three hundred vets who were there. I have met a grand total of TWO who take the chest-thumping flag-waving side. The rest of them have, to a man, said, "You did the smart thing. In retrospect, I wish I'd resisted, myself."
Key words those..."in retrospect". You disagreed with me, and then made my point for me.

At the time of the Vietnam War, people in the West bought 100% into Domino Theory (hell, we even got taught it at school in Social Studies and Current Affairs class). They believed that if the Commies weren't stopped at Vietnam, the Red Tide would sweep over Laos then Cambodia then Thailand and so on, right throughout South East Asia. We'd then have the Iron Curtain (Russian Communist satellite states between Europe and the Soviet Union) and the Bamboo Curtain (Chinese communist satellite states between China and the Pacific). The West would be facing a Cold War on two fronts.

These ideas may seem silly now, but that the time, they were genuine fears; at the time, American (and Australian and New Zealand) soldiers believed in what they were fighting for. As you say, now, years later... not so much. However the 58,000 soldiers KIA and MIA never had the opportunity for later retrospection.

Well, I am applying the same standard to the Confederate soldiers. The volunteers most likely believed what they were fighting for (however misguided we judge that to be now) and the draftees, not so much, but they had no choice but to fight. The memorial in question was to "those who wore the grey", 620,000 of whom never had the chance for retrospection or to reassess what they were fighting for.

As citizens of a modern. more enlightened world, we do not really have the right to sit in judgement of those in the past, using our morals and ethics as the standard. I think L.P. Hartley said it best in the opening line of his 1957 novel "The Hireling"....

"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there"
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Old 21st August 2017, 12:49 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
I dunno mate, that seems like slippery slope thinking to me.
But trashing monuments was always a thing. See how many times the Emmett Till markers have been destroyed.
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Old 21st August 2017, 01:22 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Key words those..."in retrospect". You disagreed with me, and then made my point for me.

At the time of the Vietnam War, people in the West bought 100% into Domino Theory (hell, we even got taught it at school in Social Studies and Current Affairs class). They believed that if the Commies weren't stopped at Vietnam, the Red Tide would sweep over Laos then Cambodia then Thailand and so on, right throughout South East Asia. We'd then have the Iron Curtain (Russian Communist satellite states between Europe and the Soviet Union) and the Bamboo Curtain (Chinese communist satellite states between China and the Pacific). The West would be facing a Cold War on two fronts.

These ideas may seem silly now, but that the time, they were genuine fears; at the time, American (and Australian and New Zealand) soldiers believed in what they were fighting for. As you say, now, years later... not so much. However the 58,000 soldiers KIA and MIA never had the opportunity for later retrospection.

There were plenty of Vietnam vets while the war was going on who wondered what business we had fighting in Vietnam. I knew more than a few of them then. One, my uncle, was a full Col. in the Marines who retired after his second tour of duty in Vietnam. His military career started on a beach at Iwo Jima, and he earned a Navy Cross during the Korean War. I think his patriotism creds were pretty solid.

There were plenty of draftees who couldn't have given two hoots about the "Domino Theory", and more than a few volunteers. Maybe it was some sort of gospel where you were, but I was here, with a draft number, in ROTC, and I can tell you that serious discussions about Vietnam among people looking the war in the face involved a lot of doubt about the idea.

Quote:

Well, I am applying the same standard to the Confederate soldiers. The volunteers most likely believed what they were fighting for (however misguided we judge that to be now) and the draftees, not so much, but they had no choice but to fight. The memorial in question was to "those who wore the grey", 620,000 of whom never had the chance for retrospection or to reassess what they were fighting for.

<snip>

There weren't 620,000 dead "who wore the grey". Well under half that, if you use the estimates that come up with the 620,000 total military deaths from the war. Even with the higher end estimates more than half were Union dead. They wore blue.
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Old 21st August 2017, 01:50 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Sounds like an insult to me, Kemosabe. I randomly sprinkle "lols" into my posts? Do you always talk this much nonsense? "lol."
I apologize.
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Old 21st August 2017, 01:57 PM   #408
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Down by Houston way, the classy way to take down Confederate Statues seems like is to blow them up using nitroglycerin and Hexamethylene triperoxide diamine.

http://abc13.com/feds-man-tried-to-p...tatue/2330348/
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Old 21st August 2017, 05:13 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But trashing monuments was always a thing. See how many times the Emmett Till markers have been destroyed.

In fairness, that was before conservatives on this forum decided to pretend they cared.
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Old 21st August 2017, 05:21 PM   #410
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Can't view that article, they want me to subscribe. Can't you give us the gist of it or link another article?
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Old 21st August 2017, 05:28 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Can't view that article, they want me to subscribe. Can't you give us the gist of it or link another article?
It had nothing to do with this forum.
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Old 21st August 2017, 06:26 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
Can't view that article, they want me to subscribe. Can't you give us the gist of it or link another article?
It was about the repeated destruction of an Emmett Till historical marker a couple of months ago that ponderingturtle was referring to in the post I quoted.

But as I said, this was before the conservatives on this forum decided to pretend they cared about the vandalization of such things.

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Old 21st August 2017, 06:37 PM   #413
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How many monuments to Benedict Arnold do with have in this country again? Oh yeah, this one, which commemorates his service BEFORE the treason and doesn't even mention him by name.
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Old 21st August 2017, 07:26 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Key words those..."in retrospect". You disagreed with me, and then made my point for me.

At the time of the Vietnam War, people in the West bought 100% into Domino Theory (hell, we even got taught it at school in Social Studies and Current Affairs class). They believed that if the Commies weren't stopped at Vietnam, the Red Tide would sweep over Laos then Cambodia then Thailand and so on, right throughout South East Asia. We'd then have the Iron Curtain (Russian Communist satellite states between Europe and the Soviet Union) and the Bamboo Curtain (Chinese communist satellite states between China and the Pacific). The West would be facing a Cold War on two fronts.

These ideas may seem silly now, but that the time, they were genuine fears; at the time, American (and Australian and New Zealand) soldiers believed in what they were fighting for. As you say, now, years later... not so much. However the 58,000 soldiers KIA and MIA never had the opportunity for later retrospection.

Well, I am applying the same standard to the Confederate soldiers. The volunteers most likely believed what they were fighting for (however misguided we judge that to be now) and the draftees, not so much, but they had no choice but to fight. The memorial in question was to "those who wore the grey", 620,000 of whom never had the chance for retrospection or to reassess what they were fighting for.

As citizens of a modern. more enlightened world, we do not really have the right to sit in judgement of those in the past, using our morals and ethics as the standard. I think L.P. Hartley said it best in the opening line of his 1957 novel "The Hireling"....

"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there"
You choose to think I made your point. Your point was incorrect. This wasn't WWII with guys rushing down on Monday to join up to fight the good fight. What you read in the news of the time was far less representative than it is today. There were fewer news outlets at the time, and most were relatively moderate-to-conservative. They plied the government line.

Out in the real world, yes, you could find the occasional gung ho patriot who believed the domino theory* and wanted to Stop the Commies, but if you asked an entire platoon how they wound up in the army, most of the answers would amount to "my deferments ran out". We grew up with the draft. Everyone was required (absent deferments) to do military service. Most of us spent from the ages 14 to 18 decidedly NOT looking forward to military service. There were the exceptions - the ROTC guys and blood-and-guts patriots, but the majority looked for ways out.

And, to be clear, I'm not saying "they didn't do their duty". They did. I'm saying their motive was not to stop communism. Their motive was "because I have to go, it's the law". Most grunts on the ground fought the battles because the enemy was shooting at them. That enemy could have been communist, fascist, national-socialist, druids, or Martian. They were shooting at you; you shot back.

It's fifty years ago, not ancient history. Many of those guys are still alive. If you encounter them ask... "How'd you wind up in the army back in the day?" Most will say it was because the draft was active and they couldn't get out of serving.

It does not compare to the motivation of Confederate volunteers or conscripts. The "Lost Cause" has it that the rebel grunts were out there fighting to protect their homes from, as sunmaster told us, a yankee army that was coming to rape their women folk and pillage their homes. That idea doesn't hold with statistics, though. When the actual pillage and rape guy was marching through Georgia, the Confederates had their highest rates of desertion! I'd think that if ol' Cletus was set on protectin' his home and southern women, he'd have signed up, not disappeared into the brush.

*In retrospect, the domino theory was correct; just not as it applied to ebil commies. Once one or two went successfully into quasi dictatorship, the rest of the ASEAN countries followed.
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Old 21st August 2017, 07:29 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
It was about the repeated destruction of an Emmett Till historical marker a couple of months ago that ponderingturtle was referring to in the post I quoted.

But as I said, this was before the conservatives on this forum decided to pretend they cared about the vandalization of such things.
yeah, you remember when Johnny Karate posted that thread about the destruction of the Emmet Till marker and all the "conservatives on this forum" were like "we don't care."

Oh wait, they never happened.
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Old 21st August 2017, 09:34 PM   #416
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
There were plenty of Vietnam vets while the war was going on who wondered what business we had fighting in Vietnam. I knew more than a few of them then. One, my uncle, was a full Col. in the Marines who retired after his second tour of duty in Vietnam. His military career started on a beach at Iwo Jima, and he earned a Navy Cross during the Korean War. I think his patriotism creds were pretty solid.

There were plenty of draftees who couldn't have given two hoots about the "Domino Theory", and more than a few volunteers. Maybe it was some sort of gospel where you were, but I was here, with a draft number, in ROTC, and I can tell you that serious discussions about Vietnam among people looking the war in the face involved a lot of doubt about the idea.
Of course, no fear of the Red Tide in USA. This will be why Americans didn't bother to build air raid shelters in their back yards.... oh, wait, they did!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4gfV6Q86KE

They also would not have bothered having nuclear air raid drills... oh, wait again, they did that too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLrWNs5XmB4









Oh, wait... you did!




There weren't 620,000 dead "who wore the grey". Well under half that, if you use the estimates that come up with the 620,000 total military deaths from the war. Even with the higher end estimates more than half were Union dead. They wore blue.[/quote]
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Old 21st August 2017, 11:34 PM   #417
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Of course, no fear of the Red Tide in USA. This will be why Americans didn't bother to build air raid shelters in their back yards.... oh, wait, they did!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4gfV6Q86KE

They also would not have bothered having nuclear air raid drills... oh, wait again, they did that too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLrWNs5XmB4









Oh, wait... you did!




There weren't 620,000 dead "who wore the grey". Well under half that, if you use the estimates that come up with the 620,000 total military deaths from the war. Even with the higher end estimates more than half were Union dead. They wore blue.
Debatum ab Youtubeum with two people who lived through the era. The difference in the American psyche viz nuclear attack changed rather considerably from 1960 through to the height of the Viet Nam war era. I'm sure quadraginta will recall the poster, but I can pinpoint the year - 1967 - as it was for sale in a bookshop I worked in.

"Instructions in Case of Nuclear Attack", it read. And then listed five or six of the same sort of things you'd recommend in any sort of attack or accident but the last two instructions were
> Crouch over and put your head between your knees.
> Then kiss your ass good-bye.

The fallout shelter craze was not solely American, btw. It was all over the place. Look up rules for Norway and Finland about fallout shelters. There are still sites all over the world that are designated as official fallout shelters, although they're usually more like bomb shelters, but it makes people feel good, I guess.

The crazy "duck and cover" commercials and the youtubes you linked to are from '60 or earlier. Castro announced he was going communist a couple of years earlier and people were still getting over The Great Commie Scare (some still haven't) of the early 50s. But by the mid-60s? No. We'd survived the Cuba blockade, for one thing. People relaxed in that there was actually a hope that sane people would not cross that final line. We were involved in a shooting war (altercation, whatever) in Viet Nam - against Commies supplied by (Boo! Hiss! Hiss!) Russia.... and no one was dropping nuclear bombs. By 1965 we also knew that radiation was the bigger killer than the explosion and that there would be nothing to come out of your shelter to when your three weeks worth of food and water were gone. Those people were already a joke.

No one's denying that the era of whacko anti-communism didn't exist - it still exists in some people's heads. But you're trying to use silly-arsed propaganda to prove to us what our compatriots and drinking buddies (then and now) were thinking.

You figured that out all the way from New Zealand, did you? About an era you did not live through? There was very little flag-waving patriotism in the troops who went to Viet Nam. Trust us on this one.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 02:01 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Of course, no fear of the Red Tide in USA. This will be why Americans didn't bother to build air raid shelters in their back yards.... oh, wait, they did!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4gfV6Q86KE

They also would not have bothered having nuclear air raid drills... oh, wait again, they did that too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLrWNs5XmB4

Oh, wait... you did!

I didn't know anyone who was afraid the Vietnamese were going to drop nuclear bombs on us.

The nuclear bomb hysteria reached it's peak while I was in grade school. Even third graders knew how stupid it was when they told us how to hide under our desks in case of nuclear attack. That bogeyman was old news by the time they started drafting people to go die in some jungle in a country most Americans wouldn't have been able to find on a map.

And still couldn't.

What was most frustrating about that war is that we got to watch the French on our TVs get the snot beat out of them for ten years trying to make the place a French colony again, and spent $3 billion on them while they failed.

Then our government decided to do it all over again.


Nobody was ever afraid of the Commies coming after them in their beds.

Nobody I knew, at any rate.

The ones who tended toward that kind of paranoia had passed beyond all that, and were more worried about blacks drinking out of their water fountains. Or marrying their daughters.

Here's what Charles De Gaulle told JFK in 1961 when Kennedy talked to him about the U.S. continuing with the conflict in Vietnam;
“We French have had experience of it. You Americans wanted to take our place in Indochina. Now you want to take over where we left off and revive a war which we brought to an end. I predict that you will sink step by step into a bottomless military and political quagmire, however much you spend in men and money."
Americans who cared to listen knew this.

Fourteen years, 55,000 American lives and many billions of dollars later we got kicked out the same way the French had in 1954, with our tail between our legs.

This didn't come as a big surprise to everyone. We were watching it happen the whole time. Again.

In color, this time around.

Enthusiasm for the Vietnam War was nowhere nearly as widespread as you seem to think. Mostly it was just something happening in some obscure part of the world that supposedly was a "good thing" because it somehow was giving the Russians a black eye.

Or something.

Until too many people's kids started coming home in body bags.

Long before that time all that "Domino Theory" crap had already started sounding as stupid to those complacent grown-ups as telling third graders to hide under their desks when all the nukes started falling had sounded to the kids years before.

Those kids had grown up by then. They were the ones being sent to fill the body bags.

Do you really think there was a lot of patriotic enthusiasm?
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Old 22nd August 2017, 05:42 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
yeah, you remember when Johnny Karate posted that thread about the destruction of the Emmet Till marker and all the "conservatives on this forum" were like "we don't care."

Oh wait, they never happened.
Yes, because the hand-wringing exclusively over the vandalism of monuments that can be pinned on the left is just a coincidence.

But by all means TBD, keep posting these specific examples and tell us what a problem this suddenly has become, despite the fact that it isn't a new phenomenon.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 09:08 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You moving goalposts. First you said no one was saying that all monuments should be kept, then when it was pointed out that people were certainly saying that, you said that you were not. There is the convenient back button on quoted posts.
I think you're confusing me with someone else, mate, as I never once mentioned anything about people talking about monuments being kept, unless someone else brought it up.

I've never said I was for or against any of it, all I did was ask if these other monuments should be removed or not. If you can go ahead and quote me, then do it. Mountain out of a mole-hill.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 09:11 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post

Nobody is saying that we should accept any monument merely because: history.
And apparently you never said this.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 09:12 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And apparently you never said this.
Yes, what is your point? You're saying I contradicted this statement, then? Well post it up here for me to see.
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Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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Old 22nd August 2017, 09:13 AM   #423
tyr_13
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
How many monuments to Benedict Arnold do with have in this country again? Oh yeah, this one, which commemorates his service BEFORE the treason and doesn't even mention him by name.

That was one of my first thoughts too. We generally don't put up monuments to traitors at courthouses, statehouses, and the like. If they are anywhere, they are at battlefields and other historic sites, or on private property. And then it's almost always to the loss of life or other tragedy, not to them fighting for a noble cause or whatnot.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 05:42 PM   #424
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
That was one of my first thoughts too. We generally don't put up monuments to traitors at courthouses, statehouses, and the like. If they are anywhere, they are at battlefields and other historic sites, or on private property. And then it's almost always to the loss of life or other tragedy, not to them fighting for a noble cause or whatnot.
Now that gives me an idea... not much use to me but it might work for a keen entrepreneur in Virginia. I reckon someone could make a stack of cash by making 1/4 or 1/6th scale sized replicas of the Robert E. Lee statue, and selling them to the fine, right wing, neo-Nazi and KKK asshats residents of Charlottesville so that they can erect them in their front yards, sort of like a Confederate version of a garden gnome. Of course, they would probably have to defend them against attempts to destroy them by angry mobs of raving loony left-wing liberal vandals protesters, but no matter. The residents can use "muh guns" to help defend them.
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