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Old 16th August 2017, 06:24 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
'k.

/as if no one can go back and read our comments.

They sure can. Which is why they can go back and read that I said this:
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I seem to recall that being a heralded event with none of the hand-wringing were seeing now about history being erased or whatever.

And then they can go back and see that the cite you provided to contradict that statement does not contradict it.
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Old 16th August 2017, 06:26 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Lol, we just elect them
In fairness, Trump hasn't been convicted of anything yet.
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Old 16th August 2017, 06:40 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
They sure can. Which is why they can go back and read that I said this:



And then they can go back and see that the cite you provided to contradict that statement does not contradict it.
i acknowledge your admiration for the second iraq war.

Bush
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Old 16th August 2017, 09:28 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
American conservatives are funny.

They talk about keeping firearms to fight the tyranny of their own government and about watering the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots. They glorify armed revolution and vigilantism.

But oh noes, someone stood in the road while protesting! Someone tore down a statue! Oh noes, civil disobediance is bad! Must always follow the laws and be a good, obediant citizen!
These types of stupidity induced contradictions exist across the political spectrum. I would say it is a human trait.
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Old 17th August 2017, 01:32 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
These types of stupidity induced contradictions exist across the political spectrum. I would say it is a human trait.
Ah, bothsideism. The hiding place of the perpetual fence-sitter.
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Old 17th August 2017, 02:56 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
U.S. Marines (along with - brace yourself - a mob) destroyed a statue of Saddam Hussein all the way back in 2003. I seem to recall that being a heralded event with none of the hand-wringing were seeing now about history being erased or whatever.
And they should be arrested and charged with that wanton act of vandalism apparently.
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Old 17th August 2017, 02:57 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I'm always against the "Nazi-slogan-chanting, murdering people variety" by default.

I would have thought that was clear.
When are are taking their side so strongly about the importance of racist statues it is a bit hard to tell.
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Old 17th August 2017, 02:59 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
There's always a case to be made that such destruction is an act of erasing history, even with the Saddam statue. It's understandable that his statue was torn down, as an act of defiance and a victory over tyranny, and the same can be said for this recent statue's destruction, that it's a way to eradicate a dark chapter. That'll never erase the fact that it is also getting rid of a piece of history, good or bad.

There'll always be a case made either way, and not everyone will definitively agree.

For me, I think we need to accept the dark chapters of our history as much as we embrace the good chapters. Isn't that what living and learning is all about?
And the best way to remember that is to keep the monuments celebrating the villains of history?
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Old 17th August 2017, 04:05 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And the best way to remember that is to keep the monuments celebrating the villains of history?
Of course. That's why they kept all those statues and busts of Hitler after the war. Destroying them would be destroying history.
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Old 17th August 2017, 04:17 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
When are are taking their side so strongly about the importance of racist statues it is a bit hard to tell.
Anyone reading the thread can see that you have lied with that post.

The best you can do is cite my admittedly poor joke about being able to form mobs.
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Old 17th August 2017, 04:25 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Then who? Who needs memorials to traitors and enemy combatants to remember the war we fought to defeat them?
Well, maybe they could add educational plaques to some of the memorials telling the other side of the story? Use them instead of tearing them down?

Some of them are clearly going to have to go, though.

I have done several tours of battlefields in Virginia and some of the monuments do make one cringe.
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Old 17th August 2017, 04:30 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I hope they bring back lynching too.
I hope neither of us was serious.
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Old 17th August 2017, 04:34 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Anyone reading the thread can see that you have lied with that post.
People are saying it is always wrong to take down statues. That is the law of the land in NC after all.
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Old 17th August 2017, 04:35 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I hope neither of us was serious.
Stop trying to destroy white heritage. We need to celebrate that in white history month.
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Old 17th August 2017, 04:39 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Aah

That makes it alright then
It makes "it" different.
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Old 17th August 2017, 04:52 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Stop trying to destroy white heritage. We need to celebrate that in white history month.
Only a month?

Shirley it should be at least a whole quarter.
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Old 17th August 2017, 06:08 AM   #217
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Well, I had no idea that there was a Lenin statue in Seattle.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/artic...f-11824249.php
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Old 17th August 2017, 06:54 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
When you say “communities” to whom are you specifically referring? And how was the decision to honor these soldiers reached? Did they take a vote? And aren’t the people who took down the memorial also members of the community?
The local governments presumably chose to put the memorials up. I have no problem with the same governments removing them. I'm just saying that the presence of a memorial for Confederate soldiers doesn't bother me.
Quote:

And the fact that the soldiers being honored were traitors, and the fact that a lot of these memorials were put up with the intent to white wash history and make those who committed treason against our country seem heroic, and the fact that Nazis and white supremacists are using these monuments as rallying cries to push their agendas, etc…
Certainly, all off that complicated matters. I don't want to defend statues put up with an oppressive intent.


Quote:
Why should memorializing an event be a problem? I don’t think anyone is arguing we shouldn’t be memorializing battles of the Civil War.
I thought that the Whiskey Rebellion memorial is a statue honoring the rebels.

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Old 17th August 2017, 07:24 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
People are saying it is always wrong to take down statues. That is the law of the land in NC after all.
That isn't the law of North Carolina. The state legislature has made it difficult to remove some statues (unreasonably so) but not impossible.

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Old 17th August 2017, 10:36 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Ah, bothsideism. The hiding place of the perpetual fence-sitter.
Its not my fault that people like you are estranged from reality. Dealing with reality is always superior than joining in on a hysteria-driven moral panic.
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Old 17th August 2017, 10:46 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And the best way to remember that is to keep the monuments celebrating the villains of history?
Who said that? I didn't. My point was that changing those monuments will not erase the past, nor will they right the wrongs of what happened. Luckily, I live in a city that acknowledges its past, good and bad, and thus we have a storied history that all can see and learn from.

I don't really care about this particular monument in question, tbh, but the subject is one that has also arisen over in my neck of the woods, hence me adding my own two cents regarding the rightfully objected motion of trying to change the names of historic streets, merely because they have ties to the slave-trade.
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Old 17th August 2017, 11:03 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Of course. That's why they kept all those statues and busts of Hitler after the war. Destroying them would be destroying history.
Every other show on the History channel is about Adolf bloody Hitler, lol, and people watch that crap for hours, so you don't need any monuments for that guy, he's got a permanent monument on the documentary channels.

Nobody is saying that we should accept any monument merely because: history.

But the fact of the matter is that you can't just go about erasing history merely because you don't like it. The UK would literally have to erase most of its past because someone had a gripe with some part of it. You'd have to wipe York's history off the map, for all the raping and pillaging that the vikings did there. The Irish in London were treated like utter **** in the 1800's, the same for them in America, much like they were treated as second-class citizens in World War 1, but it's not often we criticize our own lads for that, is it?

Benjamin Disraeli spoke very poorly of the Irish, going so far as to say this:

The Irish hate our order, our civilization, our enterprising industry, our pure religion. This wild, reckless, indolent, uncertain and superstitious race have no sympathy with the English character. Their ideal of human felicity is an alternation of clannish broils and coarse idolatry. Their history describes an unbroken circle of bigotry and blood.

I guess it's time to rid Parliament square of his statue, too.
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Old 17th August 2017, 11:06 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Every other show on the History channel is about Adolf bloody Hitler, lol, and people watch that crap for hours, so you don't need any monuments for that guy, he's got a permanent monument on the documentary channels.

Nobody is saying that we should accept any monument merely because: history.
Except there are people who are doing that by equating the removal of such monuments to the destruction of ancient monuments. For your Nobody it seems a common name. Is Odesyus around here?
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Old 17th August 2017, 11:08 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Except there are people who are doing that by equating the removal of such monuments to the destruction of ancient monuments. For your Nobody it seems a common name. Is Odesyus around here?
What do they have to do with me? My point has been made clear from the start. You guys don't half whinge a lot.
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Old 17th August 2017, 12:46 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
That isn't the law of North Carolina. The state legislature has made it difficult to remove some statues (unreasonably so) but not impossible.

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Not impossible, but so unlikely that the difference is all but non-existent.

What do you suppose the likelihood is that a legislature composed of the very same people who only two years ago passed a law forbidding the removal of monuments specifically because there was talk about moving a Confederate memorial, a legislature with an overwhelming veto-proof majority in both houses, would okay the removal of any Confederate monument?

Talking about what could be done when the odds are so vanishingly small is nothing but misdirection.
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Old 17th August 2017, 04:40 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Who said that? I didn't. My point was that changing those monuments will not erase the past, nor will they right the wrongs of what happened.
Why does this nonsense keep cropping up? Nobody is trying to "erase the past." Monuments have very little to do with historical education.
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Old 17th August 2017, 08:58 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Not impossible, but so unlikely that the difference is all but non-existent.

What do you suppose the likelihood is that a legislature composed of the very same people who only two years ago passed a law forbidding the removal of monuments specifically because there was talk about moving a Confederate memorial, a legislature with an overwhelming veto-proof majority in both houses, would okay the removal of any Confederate monument?

Talking about what could be done when the odds are so vanishingly small is nothing but misdirection.
I agree that it's an unreasonable law, but it is not a law that says it's always wrong to remove a statue. That's what was alleged.

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Old 17th August 2017, 09:54 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Who said that? I didn't. My point was that changing those monuments will not erase the past, nor will they right the wrongs of what happened.
It's to stop a wrong that is ongoing. These statues were put up to distort history and glorify the Confederacy. That's an ongoing wrong that needs corrected by removing them from places of honor and placing them where they can be put in context with more information.
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Old 17th August 2017, 09:58 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I agree that it's an unreasonable law, but it is not a law that says it's always wrong to remove a statue. That's what was alleged.

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Word games. Nothing more.

The law was passed with the explicit intent to prevent the removal of Confederate memorials. One in particular. Others as the issue might arise.

Everything else is weasel words. Window dressing so that people like you can make pathetic, sophomoric, semantic arguments about how 'it didn't really say exactly that'. (Not to mention trying to keep the courts from overturning the law. Same thing, I guess.)

Real people in the real world know and understand quite clearly what the motives and goals were when that law was passed, and what the attitudes and beliefs of the current legislature are. Playing silly word games doesn't impress.
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Old 17th August 2017, 10:21 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
They were wearing shoes while "tearing down a statue"?

Hey that is two things then that makes my comparison between people tearing down a statue and ISIS tearing down a statue apt.
They tore down Saddam Husseins statues too.
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Old 18th August 2017, 02:34 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Yes, that's why we need the statue to stay up in public, so that we can all remember that war and talk about it and be reminded that it happened, as we walk by and read the plaques.

Edit: Okay, not "remember" since we weren't there...
You do realize there are such things as history books and historians and history teachers who talk about this sort of thing... yes?
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Old 18th August 2017, 03:16 AM   #232
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Statues are worthless as educational tools.
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Old 18th August 2017, 04:22 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
You do realize there are such things as history books and historians and history teachers who talk about this sort of thing... yes?
Therefore we don't need to riot and tear the statues down and beat each other up over them. We all went to school and read those books.

We can calmly have the fate of the statues debated and decided, right?
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Old 18th August 2017, 04:55 AM   #234
Sabrina
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Therefore we don't need to riot and tear the statues down and beat each other up over them. We all went to school and read those books.

We can calmly have the fate of the statues debated and decided, right?
Certainly. Such was done in several other locations. Baltimore, for one. North Carolina, on the other hand, despite the state government being aware that multiple local governments wanted to take the statues down, decided to arbitrarily pass a law which said any removals had to have the approval of the STATE government rather than sensibly being handled by the local legislature, thereby forcing the hand of those in the areas where these statues exist.

Understand something; I am not condoning the destruction of the statue in question. I think it was wrong-headed in the extreme to tear it down in the fashion that was done. But given that the local population almost overwhelmingly wanted the statues removed and their duly elected government was ignoring that fact, an act of civil disobedience was pretty much all that was left to these people. I would have preferred it had they not outright toppled the statue over, but it's done now, and people have been arrested and charged (in fact, around 50 people attempted to turn themselves in for toppling the statue as I understand it) with its destruction.

This is not confined to North Carolina. Many locations are now looking in to removing these statues, most if not all of which were put up not in the years following the Civil War, but rather in an attempt to put black people in their place during the era of Jim Crow laws and civil rights movements. Robert E. Lee himself is on record that he did not want monuments to Confederate soldiers, a fact that was ignored by people trying their very best to "put the blacks in their place" nearly a hundred years AFTER the Civil War. We can easily remember the events of the Civil War without monuments to those who acted as traitors to the United States and seceded; it's done every day in elementary schools nationwide, most in places where there were no states during the Civil War, just territories.
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Old 18th August 2017, 06:24 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Its not my fault that people like you are estranged from reality. Dealing with reality is always superior than joining in on a hysteria-driven moral panic.
Must feel good to be the sole arbiter of what's real or not.
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Old 18th August 2017, 07:44 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Why does this nonsense keep cropping up? Nobody is trying to "erase the past." Monuments have very little to do with historical education.
Monuments also don't oppress people, mate. Goes both ways really, doesn't it?
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Old 18th August 2017, 07:46 AM   #237
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http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/...ake/578009001/

How about that perspective?
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Old 18th August 2017, 07:50 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It's to stop a wrong that is ongoing. These statues were put up to distort history and glorify the Confederacy. That's an ongoing wrong that needs corrected by removing them from places of honor and placing them where they can be put in context with more information.
I'm not necessarily arguing against the removal of this statue in question, but I'm saying that I see the argument from both sides. Like I said, we have a statue of a pretty racist guy in Parliament square, Benjamin Disraeli, but you'll not see many people petitioning against the removal of that, and I'm sure if it were to be torn down, there'd be an uproar.
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Old 18th August 2017, 07:52 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I'm not necessarily arguing against the removal of this statue in question, but I'm saying that I see the argument from both sides. Like I said, we have a statue of a pretty racist guy in Parliament square, Benjamin Disraeli, but you'll not see many people petitioning against the removal of that, and I'm sure if it were to be torn down, there'd be an uproar.
Did Disraeli commit treason?
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Old 18th August 2017, 07:56 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Did Disraeli commit treason?
Is treason now the standard which we must apply when considering the removal of statues worldwide?

Disraeli was a pretty ********** up guy, whether he committed treason or not, lol.
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