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Old 10th June 2020, 11:55 AM   #281
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post


Keep being you, pt.
What his statue has nothing to do with oppressing those in the Congo, so it fails to fit in with your critique of civil war ones. If we are going to more personal character, the biggest difference between Columbus and Leopold was Columbus was more hands on(and of course that makes him more hands off too) with his atrocities and of somewhat more limited scale.

Having the 8 year old sex slaves himself and the like is that really a good reason to keep up his statue?

Columbus and Leopold seem greatly similar in why people object to their statues and the statues were put up for political motivations unrelated to their crimes against humanity. So this seems like an excellent case comparison to determine when statues can be torn down because the person honored was a monster or not.

Which world leaders who cut of the hands of enslaved natives who were not working sufficiently hard are acceptable or not?
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Last edited by ponderingturtle; 10th June 2020 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 10th June 2020, 12:02 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
It's Bristol, so they should put up a statue of Banksy.

Right, so remove the statue of a slave trader, and replace with a statue of vandal
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Old 10th June 2020, 12:05 PM   #283
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Re: Banksy

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/ba...hnk/index.html


(Banksy's thoughts on what to do about the statue.)
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Old 10th June 2020, 12:06 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Right, so remove the statue of a slave trader, and replace with a statue of vandal
Reminds me of the joke that a poor man is crazy, the rich man is merely eccentric.

Graffiti is terrible vandalism, unless it is worth tens of thousands of pounds.....
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Old 10th June 2020, 02:04 PM   #285
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Tear them all down except one:

https://twitter.com/oceanselene/stat...34398760112129
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Old 10th June 2020, 08:01 PM   #286
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A group of protesters from the American Indian Movement toppled a Columbus statue outside the Minnesota state capitol building today, which was symbolically more powerful than someone anonymous beheading the statue in Boston for instance. Although, I still confess myself puzzled about why Minnesota would have a Columbus statue at the state capitol.
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Old 10th June 2020, 09:06 PM   #287
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Looks like the Jefferson Davis statue in Richmond was pulled down and in the process smashed the skull (likely killing) one of the lovely people gathered around cheering it being destroyed.

A true tragedy.

Video link
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Old 10th June 2020, 09:55 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Looks like the Jefferson Davis statue in Richmond was pulled down and in the process smashed the skull (likely killing) one of the lovely people gathered around cheering it being destroyed.

A true tragedy.

Video link
I wonder if felony murder charges will be filed. (Assuming pulling down a public statue is a felony.)
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Old 10th June 2020, 10:03 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I wonder if felony murder charges will be filed. (Assuming pulling down a public statue is a felony.)
It should. If you want to perform buffoonery, you should take on the criminal responsibility if that buffoonery kills someone.
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Old 10th June 2020, 10:11 PM   #290
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I suppose we'll see if the victim is actually dead. To me, it doesn't look like it. I would expect a different reaction from the crowd and from the cops, but it's hard to say on the cell phone video.

There are several stories about it that I found on google news, but none of them mention death or injury. One of them did mention that police cleared the area after the statue was toppled, but no mention of the injury.
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Old 10th June 2020, 10:16 PM   #291
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I believe the statue in question was in Portsmouth, Virginia, and according to this link, the victim was injured, not killed.

https://www.wavy.com/news/politics/v...rate-monument/


ETA: The statue of Jeff Davis on Monument Avenue in Richmond was also torn down.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 10th June 2020 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 10th June 2020, 11:21 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I had never heard of Monument Avenue before now. I think an empty plinth where Lee's statue is would leave a real hole. It would be an eyesore. This is a case where I would not want the statue removed just because its absence would be aesthetically not pleasing.

Replace Lee's statue with something else. Add statues around the circle where the current statue stands. Change plaques. Do something, but don't just take away the great big thing that is the center of attention.
As usual, I'm very late responding. I've ridden/driven on Monument Ave all my life (over 60 years). It will be jarring. I think I'll get used to it!

One suggestion for replacement has been a statue of the Lovings. I don't seem to be able to copy links, but Lovings vs Virginia should be sufficient. That would be excellent.

Tongue firmly in cheek, we could remove the generals and leave the horses.

Several African American coworkers would not take that road, even if it was the easiest way to get where they were going. I'm a white thing, I don't always understand, but I sure wouldn't argue with that.
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Old 10th June 2020, 11:52 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Protesters in Richmond, Virginia toppled a statue of Christopher Columbus and set it on fire before tossing it into a nearby lake.
That particular statue gets attacked, one way or another periodically. The "lake" is about knee deep. It's already out of the water, today.
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Old 11th June 2020, 12:00 AM   #294
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Edward Colston statue pulled out of Bristol Harbour

Quote:
A statue of a slave trader that was thrown into a harbour by anti-racism protestors has been retrieved from the water.

Black Lives Matter demonstrators tore down the statue of Edward Colston during a protest in Bristol on Sunday.

Bristol City Council said it needed to be removed from the water because the city had a "working harbour".

The statue will be taken to a secure location to be hosed down before becoming a museum exhibit.

It was fished out at about 05:00 BST because the council "didn't want anybody to get hurt if there was a crowd there or anyone looking".

"We've had a diver down there who attached the ropes to crane it out of the water and take it away," Ray Barnett, head of collections and archives at Bristol City Council, said.

"The ropes that were tied around him, the spray paint added to him, is still there so we'll keep him like that."
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Old 11th June 2020, 04:08 AM   #295
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I'll volunteer to hose him down
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Old 11th June 2020, 05:14 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well look at all the celebration photos taken at Auschwitz. Should that be a reason to tear it down?

It is pretty easy, everything stands on its own merits. Statues unlike building tend to not be historically significant, and the ones being talked about are not artistically significant either. They were put up to memorialize and generally celebrate a specific group or individual, and as such we can determine if that individual or group is one that deserves celebration.

I am still waiting for people to start funding a museum of acres and acres of such public statuary. You could have all kinds of fun wings/regions for various political movements dictators and the like.
Aushcwitz, quite rightly, should never be forgotten. It's left there as a reminder of our horrible actions (yes, ours, not merely the Nazis, but humans) and as a reminder of the many, many people we lost. It's there to tell their ancestors that we've not forgotten the atrocity.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you can by Holocaust memorabilia at Auschwitz...But you can certainly don yourself in "Bloody Tower" garb, and go home with a nifty coffee cup, if you fancy. It's hard to argue that the history of some questionable periods are not in a way celebrated when they're massive tourist traps.

You seem to be another person who so blindly accepts the notion that everyone is going to agree on the things we should and should not pay some sort of homage to, whether it be celebratory or in remembrance. I'm not confident we can all agree on such things, certainly in the UK where the vast majority of people were happy to vote for Boris bloody Johnson to lead them into virtual oblivion. Same goes for you lot in the States and your bleach-injecting president.
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Old 11th June 2020, 05:21 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It occurs to me that I am not a fan of hereditary monarchs. Oh, The Queen is just fine. She has no power. A real monarch, though, is someone who gets to tell people what to do because he had the good fortune to emerge from the right womb at the right time. Some of them turned out to be not so bad as all the rest, but the whole concept is thoroughly ridiculous.

And so the United Kindom doesn't just keep statues of those people around, they keep real people in costume pretending to be those people, let them speak to parliament, and sell commemorative teacups when they get married.

What did the various kings and queens of England (and miscellaneous other bits that varied through history) do that they deserve such elaborate commemoration?

But of course, it's not really that. It's not that those eight guys named Henry were paragons of virtue that should be revered. It's that they represent a tradition, a history, a collective identity of the people who live there now.
I'm certainly no fan of the monarchy, either, and I'd happily do away with it. Let's face it, their history is rooted in dubious behaviour, yet people line up to watch them wed and have babies like they're some sort of Disney creation come to life.

You'd find it difficult to look at most cities on earth that were not erected on the bodies of unfortunate people. It's how countries are built. America was practically torn from the hands of the natives, but hey, it's now home!

Countries are built, cultures born, all out of the darkest deeds of man, with the intention of providing a good, prosperous future for "their" people.

I'm all for change, but how far are we willing to go for change? Should former prisons stand? Places of execution? We often tear down the homes of serial murderers, don't we? Fred West's home was torn down.

Don't get me wrong, I'm for change, but I'm not for blotting out history merely because it doesn't sit right with us. Some history isn't supposed to sit right with us.
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Old 11th June 2020, 05:25 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't they put nearly that much thought into it, they've just trained themselves to never be wrong by forever stalling out conversations with endless hair splitting so it never ends.

Which is annoying at the best of times, downright an issue when it's always the thing that keeps social problems from being solved.
It's a bit like people who are often calling very loudly for change, but only change that satisfies them. I often find that the most vocal of these people tend to actually do very little in the way of charity.
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Old 11th June 2020, 05:32 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
...snip...

I'm all for change, but how far are we willing to go for change? Should former prisons stand? Places of execution? We often tear down the homes of serial murderers, don't we? Fred West's home was torn down.

Don't get me wrong, I'm for change, but I'm not for blotting out history merely because it doesn't sit right with us. Some history isn't supposed to sit right with us.
Removing a statue put up to commemorate someone is no more blotting out history than it being put up in the first place. As you say what "we" (the people today) decide to commemorate will be different from the "we" from 200 years ago.

I doubt that anyone learned anything about history from Colson's statue, after all it was not put up to educate people. From the sounds of it how it is now going to be used will in fact help illuminate history, so the total opposite of blotting out history.

I have to say I've learnt something from this, I did not know Drake had been a slave trader and I know I was not alone in that ignorance, so the current protests are in fact educating people about history.
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Old 11th June 2020, 05:42 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
If people wish to go somewhere and pay to hear such stories, I don't care. Lumping that in with statues that people don't choose to pay for seems like an apples and oranges thing.

It's only an apples and oranges thing if you seek to see it as such. I'm not talking about what people like to do, I'm asking whether we can now look to other examples of dubious celebration in society that are rooted in a darker history many don't care to focus on. Should places of inhumane activities be seen as places where we can flog a few t-shirts, for instance? People here are asking why we, us of today, cannot look at the past and decide what we want to continue remembering/celebrating. I'm merely furthering that line of thinking.


Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
It really looks like you are struggling to differentiate between things that people choose to pay for and choose to attend vs things that the government forces people to pay for and puts in public places of prominence. As I don't think those are remotely the same, for absurdly obvious reasons, I don't really know how to make the differences more clear.
It seems more that you just aren't able to understand the connection. Monuments to slave-owners are being torn down because we do not feel we should celebrate such people who were so involved in the atrocity, yet you don't feel that the celebration of, say, a known racist's literature, which was rooted in their hatred of "inferior" people, should now be questioned? Okay, well that's contradictory, or maybe it's just too complicated and makes you realize that flying the flag for change isn't as simple as you originally thought it would be.



Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Oh no, a privately funded award with the face of someone who held racist ideas! Given that knowledge, how can we justify not using public funds to purchase and maintain on public lands statues to people who fought a war solely for the right to own slaves or people who made vast fortunes selling slaves?!?!
Your downplaying of it is telling, because many black authors, and white, campaigned strongly against the award to the point where it was eventually changed, yet here you are acting like it wasn't an issue.

Never was this clearer than in the debate in 2010 surrounding the World Fantasy Award, a prestigious literary prize for fantastical fiction molded in the caricatured bust of Lovecraft himself, which a number of writers came to petition. Established in 1975 in Lovecraft’s home city of Providence, Rhode Island, the “Howard” award was intended to “give a visible, potentially usable, sign of appreciation to writers working in the area of fantastic literature, an area too often distinguished by low financial remuneration and indifference.” Like most awards named after an artist, it was intended to acknowledge Lovecraft’s precedent in the field of fantastical fiction.

But as his racism and xenophobia became more widely known and discussed, it became obvious how flippant and egregious it was to potentially award black nominees with the face of a man who once proclaimed that “the Negro is fundamentally the biological inferior of all White and even Mongolian races.” As Nnedi Okorafor, the first black person to ever win a WFA for Best Novel, put her internal conflict, “A statuette of this racist man’s head is in my home. A statuette of this racist man’s head is one of my greatest honors as a writer.”


https://lithub.com/we-cant-ignore-h-...ite-supremacy/

The basic gist of the situation is the same, yet you cannot see it. A man was being celebrated for his work, yet that work was very firmly grounded in a hatred of other races. "Oh no!" Indeed, mate, indeed.



Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
In the case of the Confederate statues, those were put up to celebrate the bad they did. That makes it difficult to forgive and forget the bad they did.
Was Colston's statue erected for his bad deeds? Not that I recall.



Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I'm sure that if we break things down to the sub-atomic level we can find some blurry messiness. But from here it looks more like you are struggling to find a mess, even going so far as conflating obviously different things to create a mess.
Nope, I'm merely pointing out the larger issue of hypocrisy when it comes to the cherry-picking of history in the spirit of change.



Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
No, I think the distinctions are still pretty clear.
Your "Oh No" remark made it clear that you're about as clear on this as muddy water, mate.
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Old 11th June 2020, 05:52 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why shouldn't it be up to the people alive today what they do as it was to the people hundreds of years ago? Societies and cultures are always changing.
Again, this isn't something I disagree with. The question I keep coming back to is who gets to decide? The British public, in the case of our own country? We can't agree on anything here, and neither can the Americans.



Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Seems pretty much unconnected to this topic but again why shouldn't the people today be able to make such decisions for themselves?
Can you explain how it's different? The topic we all seem to be discussing is whether or not some history should be remembered, and with it, some historic figures remembered. My question is, if we're now taking a more curious glance of the things we celebrate, shouldn't that extend to other dubious people, places, and things? Are we genuinely trying to change anything, or is this a hashtag moment for the social media crowd?



Originally Posted by Darat View Post
People have always had this issue; it isn't a new thing. I'd say these days we are in fact much more sensitive and try to be better informed when we are making these types of decisions then ever before. It’s only a few hundred years ago the word would go out from the ruler that X is now out of favour and everyone would be quick to remove anything that even reminded people of X.

We’ve now decided as a society that slave traders are not people we want to commemorate no matter if they did other things that we still respect. It is just a change.

There is a slight wrinkle in this for the USA folk as it is apparent that many of the “confederate” statues were deliberately put up in quite recent times to commemorate the fight to keep slavery so there is no “but he was loved his dog” that needs to be taken into consideration.
It's definitely not a new thing, yet it's odd that we're content to continue to pick and choose the things which we find okay to celebrate versus the things we want to be rid of. We're uncomfortable with the atrocities of the past, quite rightly, yet most of this country voted Conservative, and it seems to me that we're happy to let atrocities continue. Seeing all of those people protesting made me think, did they all vote? Could've done with those numbers at the polling stations, because sadly, poverty isn't going away any time soon.
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:01 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Removing a statue put up to commemorate someone is no more blotting out history than it being put up in the first place. As you say what "we" (the people today) decide to commemorate will be different from the "we" from 200 years ago.

I doubt that anyone learned anything about history from Colson's statue, after all it was not put up to educate people. From the sounds of it how it is now going to be used will in fact help illuminate history, so the total opposite of blotting out history.

I have to say I've learnt something from this, I did not know Drake had been a slave trader and I know I was not alone in that ignorance, so the current protests are in fact educating people about history.
I'm mainly speaking generally regarding the blotting out of history. While I'm generally okay with the removal of some monuments to dubious characters, I feel that Liverpool's solution is the better one. To accompany certain monuments or street names with additional information which explains why such places were given the name, or why such monuments were erected in the first place. History is seldom straightforward, you've got a lot of historical figures who were doing amazing things while being really horrible people, that's humanity for ya. Education is key, learning about these things is valuable, IMO. I truly hope people are seeking to educate themselves during all of this. I reminded a friend just last night that Liverpool is full of information, should anyone in this city care to look it up, because I think some people are still of the opinion that we (Liverpool and the rest of the UK) blindly commemorate these people without so much as offering up a balanced view of what they actually did.
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:20 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
It's a bit like people who are often calling very loudly for change, but only change that satisfies them.
I'm not sure what you think you mean by that. People calling out for fewer statues of imperialists might well be dissatisfied with a proposal to change the situation by putting up more.

Dave
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:28 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I'm not sure what you think you mean by that. People calling out for fewer statues of imperialists might well be dissatisfied with a proposal to change the situation by putting up more.

Dave
It was very much a direct response to Joe Morgue.

Again, my point is this: I agree that we can and should be able to review the things we choose to celebrate. I don't agree that we can choose what we decide to remember, though.

When it comes to our issues that we have with continuing to celebrate people from the past who had dubious connections, do we end it there? Do we then look to other staples of our culture, such as art, literature, music, etc?

Can we separate a man/woman's history from their work? If we can, why can we?

Again, Colston's statue was put there to celebrate what he accomplished. If we're now (rightly) questioning it, are we not allowed to then question other people who have contributed to society while also having a questionable connection to some type of immoral deed?

Who gets to decide what's right and what's wrong?
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Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:37 AM   #305
Darat
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
...snip...

Again, Colston's statue was put there to celebrate what he accomplished. If we're now (rightly) questioning it, are we not allowed to then question other people who have contributed to society while also having a questionable connection to some type of immoral deed?

...snip...
It's interesting to read the history behind it, from Wikipedia:

Quote:
...
The statue, designed by John Cassidy, was erected in the area now known as The Centre in 1895, to commemorate Edward Colston's philanthropy.[3][4] It was proposed by James Arrowsmith, the president of the Anchor Society. Several appeals to the public and to Colston-related charitable bodies failed to raise the £1,000 needed for its casting and erection, and Arrowsmith ended up paying the shortfall himself.[5]

...snip...
It appears that one of my usual criticism of these types of statues is spot on in regards to Colson's: there was no public demand for him to be commemorated, there was no widespread movement and so on. A rich powerful person decided he wanted to impose this on everyone else and as ever the rich and the powerful got their way.
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:38 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
<snip>
You still can't see the difference between government funded and endorsed celebration forced upon people who don't want it and privately funded celebrations chosen only by people who do want it, I see.
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:39 AM   #307
Darat
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
...snip...

Who gets to decide what's right and what's wrong?
We do, through various mechanisms, some I'm happy about - "due process", some I'm not as happy about - "direct action".

But I don't see why this is at all contentious, it's how society has always worked.
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:44 AM   #308
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's interesting to read the history behind it, from Wikipedia:



It appears that one of my usual criticism of these types of statues is spot on in regards to Colson's: there was no public demand for him to be commemorated, there was no widespread movement and so on. A rich powerful person decided he wanted to impose this on everyone else and as ever the rich and the powerful got their way.
That's generally how a lot of things are done, it seldom has anything to do with the people.

I'm strongly against the removal of green space in Liverpool, and am part of a group that seeks to petition against the development of Mayor Joe's "Redrow" housing estates, we even had a strong petition against the building on of Calderstones park, but we the people weren't really given much of an ear by the local council, as you say, it's nothing new.
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Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'

Last edited by Gilbert Syndrome; 11th June 2020 at 06:50 AM.
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:46 AM   #309
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You still can't see the difference between government funded and endorsed celebration forced upon people who don't want it and privately funded celebrations chosen only by people who do want it, I see.
You basically just choose to ignore the point, and again, your total downplaying of the Lovecraft award which was a point of contention in the black community to the point where it was removed is evidence of that inability to grasp the connection between the topics.
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Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:48 AM   #310
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We do, through various mechanisms, some I'm happy about - "due process", some I'm not as happy about - "direct action".

But I don't see why this is at all contentious, it's how society has always worked.
Again, though, we the people don't ever seem to be able to come to an agreement on much. Britain can't even figure out whether it wants to remain in Europe or not. If we put all of this to the vote, where would we end up? I don't know, are we willing to find out, though?
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Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:51 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
You basically just choose to ignore the point, and again, your total downplaying of the Lovecraft award which was a point of contention in the black community to the point where it was removed is evidence of that inability to grasp the connection between the topics.
No, I'm not ignoring your point. You simply appear incapable of recognizing why it doesn't apply.
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Old 11th June 2020, 06:55 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
No, I'm not ignoring your point. You simply appear incapable of recognizing why it doesn't apply.
Explain in detail how the two situations do not apply.

As far as I can see, the Colston statue was put up to celebrate his supposedly good (and questionable) deeds. It was torn down by those who don't wish to see him celebrated further.

Lovecraft's award was designed based on the celebration of his contribution to literature and the arts, a contribution rooted literally in his hatred of other races, notably people of black descent.

In both cases people heatedly argued about whether these people should be celebrated, and whether their image should be used to inspire or educate others.

That you fail to grasp the relevance isn't my problem.
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Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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Old 11th June 2020, 07:06 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
It was very much a direct response to Joe Morgue.
That doesn't make it make any sense. What's wrong with people calling for specific changes, and being dissatisfied with different changes?

Dave
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Old 11th June 2020, 07:14 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
That doesn't make it make any sense. What's wrong with people calling for specific changes, and being dissatisfied with different changes?

Dave
Because he is one of a not just a few people who seems to think that the call to re-evaluate other points of contention (with how we view history and celebrate historical figures) isn't necessary. I find that odd.

You can't be a bastion for change and yet be selective on that change. If we the people can now dictate what we want to see commemorated, then whose opinion matters? The majority?

Is it just racial injustices that we seek to change, or is it a wider range of issues that includes racial atrocities but doesn't end with them?

How much change are we actually willing to make?
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Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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Old 11th June 2020, 07:19 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It appears that one of my usual criticism of these types of statues is spot on in regards to Colson's: there was no public demand for him to be commemorated, there was no widespread movement and so on. A rich powerful person decided he wanted to impose this on everyone else and as ever the rich and the powerful got their way.
And I want to make this clear for people who may not have thought about it this way - this is one of the factors in to why institutional racism exists and how it means that systems can have racist outcomes, even if nobody within the system is themselves racist.

Even leaving aside appeals to tradition (which we're seeing a lot of in this thread), replacing a statue is not a neutral thing to do. Councils have budgets. Budgets that have been pared down to a bare minimum during Austerity. To replace a statue requires money. It needs manhours to decide that it should be done, how it should be done, and what should replace the original statue. Workers have to be found and contracted. Equipment has to be leased. Time has to be spent justifying these decisions to the public. Access has to be restricted while the physical change over happens. The old statue has to be disposed of in some manner.

And so on. Even leaving aside all philosophical and moral arguments, the actual physical act of replacing the statue is something that requires considerable time and effort on behalf of a lot of people.

So even absent any other factors, there's a large amount of inertia over such things. It's simply easier to just leave it where it is, just because it's already there.

I'm sure that nobody will argue that the history of the UK (as well as other countries) is one with a considerable amount of racism in it. I don't think anybody could argue that Colston wasn't racist. There are plenty of other statues of racists up. Even people arguing against the removal of the statue are happy to say that the statue was allowed to put up in the first place because times were different - i.e. more racist.

So you have things that became traditions or part of the fabric of society in a time when racism was deemed acceptable which are now difficult to change for a number of reasons simply because they are the established status quo.

That's how you can end up with a situation where a black mayor who considers the statue of a slave trader to be a personal affront unable to even get the plaque on the plinth modified to acknowledge the fact that he was a slave trader. And that is what is meant by institutional or systemic racism.
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Old 11th June 2020, 07:21 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Because he is one of a not just a few people who seems to think that the call to re-evaluate other points of contention (with how we view history and celebrate historical figures) isn't necessary.
That's not how I see it. He's saying, and I tend to agree, that it's not necessary to do a complete top-down revision of the whole of society before we can contemplate making specific changes in specific cases. And he's also saying that people who want to stifle change are in the habit of demanding that every possible change be proposed, discussed and finalized before any change is made. It could take years to come up with a national decision on guidelines for whether statues that particular groups find offensive should be removed or not, during which time no change can be made. The real world doesn't work like that; when there's a consensus for change, individual cases can lead the decision rather than having to wait for it, and that doesn't stop the wider discussion being held at the same time.

Dave
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Old 11th June 2020, 07:26 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
That's not how I see it. He's saying, and I tend to agree, that it's not necessary to do a complete top-down revision of the whole of society before we can contemplate making specific changes in specific cases. And he's also saying that people who want to stifle change are in the habit of demanding that every possible change be proposed, discussed and finalized before any change is made. It could take years to come up with a national decision on guidelines for whether statues that particular groups find offensive should be removed or not, during which time no change can be made. The real world doesn't work like that; when there's a consensus for change, individual cases can lead the decision rather than having to wait for it, and that doesn't stop the wider discussion being held at the same time.

Dave
But I'm in no way saying we should do any of that before we do what has been going on of late. Not in any way at all.

Let me be clear on this: I am all for change, as I've said countless times, I do not think we all need to have a sit down and a cup of tea to discuss what stays and what goes before we take action, although I would like to explore other avenues such as providing better information alongside such monuments and street names before just tearing them away.

I do, however, wonder whether we can now begin to assess other parts of our culture and our society that we no longer agree with. That's what I'm getting at. I don't claim we should be doing this before we do anything else, though, that's not what I'm demanding of anyone.
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Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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Old 11th June 2020, 07:30 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I have to say I've learnt something from this, I did not know Drake had been a slave trader and I know I was not alone in that ignorance, so the current protests are in fact educating people about history.
After I learned that Vespucci had been a slaver, I wondered about Drake. It was big business. There was a whole lot of new farmland to be worked, and not enough people to work it, and there were folks in Africa willing to sell you some people really cheap. I figured a guy like Drake, ever eager to jump at an opportunity, would find a way to get in on that.

So....pull down his statue! A slave trader! An oppressor of native people! Just like.....everyone else at the time.

Well, he did save England from invasion, but surely someone else would have done that if he hadn't been there to do it himself.
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Old 11th June 2020, 07:35 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
A complete lie.

Blacks are not abused for their race by police. Every single thing you hear about traces back to their actual behavior. With a very, very few rare exceptions.
The problem with your argument is that you've made it true by definition: blacks are genetically more criminal, therefore the police get to treat them differently, ergo it's not about their skin colour.

I don't think anyone here buys it.
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Old 11th June 2020, 07:41 AM   #320
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Okay, to try to avoid this appearing like a waily, waily moment, I need to assure you all that this is a genuine question.

Given that, by modern moral standards, virtually everyone born prior to aroun 1900 is going to have been a bit of a git, and that of those that made enough noise to have statues put up in their honour, a very large portion are going to be found morally wanting by today's code, when do we stop?

I'm very happy to have the statues of slave traders ripped down, but are you going to close Disney world? Or, at least, re-name it?
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