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Old 16th October 2020, 06:06 AM   #1681
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Pathetic, just pathetic

I don't know how they have the gall to call it an "Australian Solution" when it's an abject failure.
You can polish a turd but it's still a turd.
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Old 16th October 2020, 06:11 AM   #1682
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Of course Boris Johnson is lying, Australia do not deal with the EU exclusively on WTO terms. It's true that they largely deal on WTO terms but they have specific deals for certain products and services - something the UK will lack. Australia is also in the middle of a multi-year negotiation to get a free trade deal.

Of course the biggest difference is scale. Australia is now Pacific-facing and so while the EU is quite important (collectively it's Australia's third largest trading partner), it's not like the EU accounts for half of Australia's foreign trade.
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Old 16th October 2020, 06:50 AM   #1683
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Oh look I'm posting the LeaveHQ articel on the WTO again.
http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128
Quote:
The WTO Option advocates will tell you that countries such as China, the United States and Australia all trade with the EU without formal trade agreements, and therefore operate under WTO rules. They don't have these problems so why would the UK? The answer, however, is remarkably simple. These countries don't rely solely on WTO rules.
......

What is the EU-Australia Partnership Framework, if not (inter alia) a trade agreement? In the detail, it sets the framework for the all-important MRA on conformity assessment. One MRA runs to 110 pages, with an amendment running to a further 20 pages.


There are, in fact, 82 agreements between the EU and Australia, of which 18 are bilateral.
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Old 16th October 2020, 07:28 AM   #1684
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Of course Boris Johnson is lying,
This should appear on screen whenever Boris says anything. Or as a narration on the radio. Maybe he can get a shirt printed with this message on it to save us the hassle?
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Old 16th October 2020, 07:44 AM   #1685
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
"Boris Johnson says it's time to "get ready" for the prospect of no free trade deal with the EU on 1 January.
Which puts him a few years behind the rest of us.

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Old 16th October 2020, 09:27 AM   #1686
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Speaking from Downing Street after an EU summit both sides said was the deadline for hammering out a trade deal, Mr Johnson said it looked like the country was heading for what he called "the Australian solution".
That's exactly like the China Syndrome except you start your meltdown in the UK, right?
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Old 16th October 2020, 10:42 AM   #1687
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Pathetic, just pathetic

I don't know how they have the gall to call it an "Australian Solution" when it's an abject failure.
Australian solution is overegging what we will have.

"The North Korean model" is probably more accurate.
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Old 16th October 2020, 10:51 AM   #1688
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Conservatives tweeted

@Conservatives
Dec 3, 2019
⏲ Ding! Our Brexit deal is ready.

#VoteConservative
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Old 16th October 2020, 11:07 AM   #1689
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Boris Johnson's words last year:


"We have no plan for no deal, because we're going to get a great deal."
"I've looked carefully at no deal. I've assessed its consequences. Be in no doubt, that outcome would be a failure of statecraft."

So by his own standards he's failed us then.
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Old 16th October 2020, 11:10 AM   #1690
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The "oven-ready" deal that Boris Johnson won the last election telling everyone he had in his back pocket doesn't exist,It was a lie.
It was the core manifesto pledge of the Conservative Party only 10 months ago and they knew it was a lie, there was never going to be a deal.
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Old 16th October 2020, 11:29 AM   #1691
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The plan comes to fruition:

"The UK has rebuffed Brussels’ offer of intensified trade talks, telling the European Union’s chief negotiator there is “no basis for negotiations” next week.

Boris Johnson on Friday accused European leaders of having “abandoned the idea of a free trade deal” and told the country to “get ready” for a no-deal outcome in the negotiations after his October 15 deadline for reaching an agreement passed.

European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen had responded to his media statement by vowing that the EU would carry on negotiating, suggesting talks next week in London would go ahead as planned.

But Lord Frost, the UK’s chief negotiator, spoke with his counterpart Michel Barnier to tell him not to make the trip across the Channel next week.

The pair, however, pledged to speak “early next week” in an indication that hopes of talks continuing have not been entirely extinguished, despite Downing Street telling reporters the negotiations were now “over”.
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Old 16th October 2020, 12:14 PM   #1692
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David Schneider tweets

@davidschneider
Netflix must accept that I will walk away with No Deal.
They are refusing to give me free access to all their content plus £15m to make any movie I want.
This is on them.
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Old 16th October 2020, 03:35 PM   #1693
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This week there were only 4 cases of Covid in the country, 55,000 were in the crowd for a rugby match, and the Prime Minister took a 20% pay cut in solidarity with those that suffered economically during the pandemic.

That country was New Zealand.
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Old 17th October 2020, 01:35 AM   #1694
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
The plan comes to fruition:

"The UK has rebuffed Brussels’ offer of intensified trade talks, telling the European Union’s chief negotiator there is “no basis for negotiations” next week.

Boris Johnson on Friday accused European leaders of having “abandoned the idea of a free trade deal” and told the country to “get ready” for a no-deal outcome in the negotiations after his October 15 deadline for reaching an agreement passed.

European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen had responded to his media statement by vowing that the EU would carry on negotiating, suggesting talks next week in London would go ahead as planned.

But Lord Frost, the UK’s chief negotiator, spoke with his counterpart Michel Barnier to tell him not to make the trip across the Channel next week.

The pair, however, pledged to speak “early next week” in an indication that hopes of talks continuing have not been entirely extinguished, despite Downing Street telling reporters the negotiations were now “over”.
In other words Boris has made a big deal of a show of petulance to appease the right wing papers and gammon brigade but it's completely meaningless and talks will continue.
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Old 17th October 2020, 01:50 AM   #1695
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
"Boris Johnson says it's time to "get ready" for the prospect of no free trade deal with the EU on 1 January.
I've been ready for that for years.
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Old 17th October 2020, 02:02 AM   #1696
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https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/s...71632998793218

Quote:
Warning signWarning signWarning signAnd there it isWarning signWarning signWarning sign

In black & ******* white.

A legal contract with Donald Trump

'AggregateIQ - IN PARTNERSHIP WITH - Cambridge Analytica'

2 companies

Operating together as ***1 legal entity***

'Aggregate IQ in partnership with Cambridge Analytica'

From Brittany's new data dump. I really didn't mean to look tonight...but my god.

For the Brits: incontrovertible evidence AIQ - firm at heart of Brexit contracted by Cummings - was operating as single legal entity with Cambridge Analytica

(Previously: denied, denied, denied)
More, including documents, in the rest of the thread.
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Old 17th October 2020, 02:02 AM   #1697
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
This week there were only 4 cases of Covid in the country, 55,000 were in the crowd for a rugby match, and the Prime Minister took a 20% pay cut in solidarity with those that suffered economically during the pandemic.

That country was New Zealand.
Can we get a NZ trade deal with the EU?
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Old 17th October 2020, 03:43 AM   #1698
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
In other words Boris has made a big deal of a show of petulance to appease the right wing papers and gammon brigade but it's completely meaningless and talks will continue.
I'm not so sure on that. I think Boris is determined to get a No Deal.
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Old 17th October 2020, 03:46 AM   #1699
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
I'm not so sure on that. I think Boris is determined to get a No Deal.
I've been saying it since the vote, there were only two possible outcomes:

- No Brexit
- No Deal
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Old 17th October 2020, 09:29 AM   #1700
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
In other words Boris has made a big deal of a show of petulance to appease the right wing papers and gammon brigade but it's completely meaningless and talks will continue.
The remarkable thing ought to be that he's pre-announcing his failure. Somehow in this insane circus that doesn't bother Brexiteers who want the ideological purity of failure, and doesn't surprise anyone else. It ought to be a scandal.

4 years ago we were told if we didn't like the sound of the EU's destination we should vote to get off the plane and go our own way.

We were reassured we'd negotiate a drop-off even before we declared we were getting off.

After the vote it turned out that was ******** as there was no process for that. But don't worry; we'll just parachute to freedom.

Except there was no parachute, but don't worry; we'll jump without one and David Davis will knit us one while we plummet. It'll be easy.

And we've been plummeting ever since. The only thing Boris has achieved is to stop any further agreements to move the ground further away. And that's not because he has a plan, it's just what he needed to say to get the maniacs to vote for him so he could be prime minister; literally the only consideration that matters to him.
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Old 17th October 2020, 11:49 AM   #1701
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The EU will be more motivated to reach a deal after we've left without one. Of course, it may still take them many years to do it.

Until we've actually left without a deal, the EU is focussed on trying to keep the UK following EU rules, even though we've now left the EU. Right now, they're trying to maintain. as far as they're able, the status quo.

If we do leave without a deal, then ongoing talks will be about reaching a deal that benefits both sides compared to WTO trading arrangements - that's a lower hurdle to clear, so progress may be more rapid.

However, "rapid progress on trade deals" is a relative term for the EU. Compared with what most businesses would accept as reasonable, negotiations involving politicians are inclined to be rather snail-like.
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Old 17th October 2020, 12:45 PM   #1702
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Why?

Why would the EU become more motivate when we leave than it is before? Are they incapable of anticipating the economic impact of having no trade deal next year?

The EU does not need to focus any energy on making us follow EU rules this year. We are still following the rules because that's what we have agreed to do. All their efforts should be available to try to mitigate the worst of the damage caused to their members by our flouncing off.

Seriously, I do not follow your argument that the EU will suddenly become motivated to negotiate when we leave. Now if instead your argument was that they think they will get a better deal after we have realised the horrible position we have placed ourselves in and become desperate, then that at least would make some sense.
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Old 17th October 2020, 01:36 PM   #1703
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The EU are, of course - and rightly so, trying to get the best deal for the EU. If they can get us to agree to their "level playing field" rules, and to give them continued access to our fishing grounds, then they will - and they could yet succeed. I have no confidence in Boris Johnson, he might yet blink and give the EU exactly what they're asking for.

But if we do leave without a trade deal, then the EU are negotiating from a different starting point - they will no longer have access to our fish, and we'll already be free to ignore the level playing field rules, for example.

From the EU's point of view, it's then about what they can gain from a trade deal, rather than what they will lose, compared to the current transition period rules.

I appreciate that the EU already know the situation, and could already negotiate as if the UK had already departed with no deal. But like I say, right now they are still hoping that Boris and his band of idiots will cave in and give the EU everything it wants - the EU would be foolish to offer significant concessions right now.

Last edited by ceptimus; 17th October 2020 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 17th October 2020, 02:45 PM   #1704
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
they will no longer have access to our fish,
OMG, we will non longer have access to UK fish! What a disaster is the making!

In fact the fish issue concerns a handful of fisher in a few EU countries. This is a political issue much more than an economic issue.

Most Europeans feel totaly non concerned by the UK fish issue.
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Old 17th October 2020, 02:51 PM   #1705
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
we'll already be free to ignore the level playing field rules, for example.
.
In which case we will never get a deal. Why would they agree to a deal that would undercut their own industry standards?
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Old 17th October 2020, 03:00 PM   #1706
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
In which case we will never get a deal. Why would they agree to a deal that would undercut their own industry standards?
The Canadians, for example, got a deal that doesn't involve them implementing the EU's 'level playing field' rules - and of course the EU are not entitled to fish in Canada's fishing waters either.

It's not just the Canadians - it's any country outside the EU that has a trade deal with the EU. None of those countries would ever sign up to the same rules the EU are attempting to impose on the UK.
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Old 17th October 2020, 03:08 PM   #1707
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
OMG, we will non longer have access to UK fish! What a disaster is the making!

In fact the fish issue concerns a handful of fisher in a few EU countries. This is a political issue much more than an economic issue.

Most Europeans feel totaly non concerned by the UK fish issue.
Yes, you are correct. Fishing is only a tiny part of the UK economy 0.1% or thereabouts. As you say, it's a political issue rather than an economic one. But it's important to President Macron, who wants to get the votes of French fishing areas in next year's election, and it's also politically important to Belgium, Denmark, and Spain.
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Old 17th October 2020, 03:17 PM   #1708
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The Canadians, for example, got a deal that doesn't involve them implementing the EU's 'level playing field' rules - and of course the EU are not entitled to fish in Canada's fishing waters either.

It's not just the Canadians - it's any country outside the EU that has a trade deal with the EU. None of those countries would ever sign up to the same rules the EU are attempting to impose on the UK.
Anything they sell in to the EU has to be to EU standard.
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Old 17th October 2020, 03:20 PM   #1709
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Anything they sell in to the EU has to be to EU standard.
Which will apply to the UK too. Just like anything we sell to Japan has to meet Japanese standards. But stuff for internal UK consumption need not necessarily meet Japanese standards especially if the company making those things doesn't even attempt to export to Japan.

There are probably examples of countries with mutually incompatible standards so that it's impossible to sell the exact same product to both of them. I don't know of any examples. Wherever possible, manufacturers attempt to make a single product that meets the standards of all the company's export markets - because that makes things simpler and cheaper for them.

Last edited by ceptimus; 17th October 2020 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 17th October 2020, 03:37 PM   #1710
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So you make a product that meets the highest standard just as they do now.
Why would you make more than one?
How do you think companies manage to sell in to different markets at the moment?
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Old 17th October 2020, 03:47 PM   #1711
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So you make a product that meets the highest standard just as they do now.
Why would you make more than one?
How do you think companies manage to sell in to different markets at the moment?
That's exactly what I just said.

It's one thing for companies that want to export to Europe continuing to meet European standards. That's not the same as signing up in perpetuity via an international treaty that ALL manufacturing in the UK must continue to adhere to current and future EU rules - especially when such rules may prevent the UK agreeing trade deals with other non-EU countries.

To take a ludicrous example, imagine that the EU passed a rule saying that all lawnmowers must be stamped with their gross weight in kilograms only. But the USA required that lawnmowers exported there must have their weights stamped in pounds. Then the UK would be unable to sell lawnmowers to the USA.

A smart UK lawnmower firm might say, "we can easily stamp the weight in both pounds and kilograms - or we can produce a special USA-export-only model with the weight in pounds." But the EU rules would prevent this.

Of course, this ludicrous example would prevent any EU country exporting lawnmowers to the USA - so the EU would likely never pass such a rule.

But you can probably think of examples where the EU could target a particular trade that only the UK carries out - the export of Melton Mowbray pork pies or Scotch whisky or similar.

Last edited by ceptimus; 17th October 2020 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 17th October 2020, 03:54 PM   #1712
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
That's exactly what I just said.

It's one thing for companies that want to export to Europe continuing to meet European standards. That's not the same as signing up in perpetuity via an international treaty that ALL manufacturing in the UK must continue to adhere to current and future EU rules - especially when such rules may prevent the UK agreeing trade deals with other non-EU countries.

To take a ludicrous example, imagine that the EU passed a rule saying that all lawnmowers must be stamped with their gross weight in kilograms only. But the USA required that lawnmowers exported there must have their weights stamped in pounds. Then the UK would be unable to sell lawnmowers to the USA.

A smart UK lawnmower firm might say, "we can easily stamp the weight in both pounds and kilograms - or we can produce a special USA-export-only model with the weight in pounds." But the EU rules would prevent this.
Are you able to quote any EU rules that would prevent us from selling to anyone else?

Any EU rules that apply to us would also apply to all members of the EU.
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Old 17th October 2020, 04:19 PM   #1713
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
That's exactly what I just said.

It's one thing for companies that want to export to Europe continuing to meet European standards. That's not the same as signing up in perpetuity via an international treaty that ALL manufacturing in the UK must continue to adhere to current and future EU rules - especially when such rules may prevent the UK agreeing trade deals with other non-EU countries.

To take a ludicrous example, imagine that the EU passed a rule saying that all lawnmowers must be stamped with their gross weight in kilograms only. But the USA required that lawnmowers exported there must have their weights stamped in pounds. Then the UK would be unable to sell lawnmowers to the USA.

A smart UK lawnmower firm might say, "we can easily stamp the weight in both pounds and kilograms - or we can produce a special USA-export-only model with the weight in pounds." But the EU rules would prevent this.

Of course, this ludicrous example would prevent any EU country exporting lawnmowers to the USA - so the EU would likely never pass such a rule.

But you can probably think of examples where the EU could target a particular trade that only the UK carries out - the export of Melton Mowbray pork pies or Scotch whisky or similar.
Melton Mowbray pork pies and Scotch whisky are both protected under EU law. In January, anyone will be able to make them because there wont be that EU protection. It will be gone.

Congratulations.
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Old 17th October 2020, 11:31 PM   #1714
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
That's exactly what I just said.

It's one thing for companies that want to export to Europe continuing to meet European standards. That's not the same as signing up in perpetuity via an international treaty that ALL manufacturing in the UK must continue to adhere to current and future EU rules - especially when such rules may prevent the UK agreeing trade deals with other non-EU countries.

To take a ludicrous example, imagine that the EU passed a rule saying that all lawnmowers must be stamped with their gross weight in kilograms only. But the USA required that lawnmowers exported there must have their weights stamped in pounds. Then the UK would be unable to sell lawnmowers to the USA.

A smart UK lawnmower firm might say, "we can easily stamp the weight in both pounds and kilograms - or we can produce a special USA-export-only model with the weight in pounds." But the EU rules would prevent this.

Of course, this ludicrous example would prevent any EU country exporting lawnmowers to the USA - so the EU would likely never pass such a rule.

But you can probably think of examples where the EU could target a particular trade that only the UK carries out - the export of Melton Mowbray pork pies or Scotch whisky or similar.
Another interesting insight into the Brexiteer mindset, and hardly surprising given the decades long misinformation campaign the right wing press and Conservative party have been waging.

Like President Trump, the UK is both amazingly powerful and yet helpless. In this case the EU have, and will continue to, conspire against us purely out of spite. IMO this is utter rubbish.

Ironically, by leaving the EU without a deal, our own government is doing far more damage to the UK than the EU could ever do, even if they wanted to.
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Old 18th October 2020, 12:27 AM   #1715
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Which will apply to the UK too. Just like anything we sell to Japan has to meet Japanese standards. But stuff for internal UK consumption need not necessarily meet Japanese standards especially if the company making those things doesn't even attempt to export to Japan.

Yes, one of the main aims of Brexit was always to restore the right of the British people to buy substandard crap.
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Old 18th October 2020, 12:42 AM   #1716
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Yes, one of the main aims of Brexit was always to restore the right of the British people to buy substandard crap.
Proudly bringing back incandescent lightbulbs, inefficient vacuum cleaners, flammable children's toys and imperial-sized fastenings
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Old 18th October 2020, 01:21 AM   #1717
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Another interesting insight into the Brexiteer mindset, and hardly surprising given the decades long misinformation campaign the right wing press and Conservative party have been waging.

Like President Trump, the UK is both amazingly powerful and yet helpless. In this case the EU have, and will continue to, conspire against us purely out of spite. IMO this is utter rubbish.

Ironically, by leaving the EU without a deal, our own government is doing far more damage to the UK than the EU could ever do, even if they wanted to.

The trouble is that lot of Brexiteers are dumb enough to believe that because the majority of the UK’s trade is with EU countries, the majority of the EU countries’ trade is with the UK.
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Old 18th October 2020, 01:32 AM   #1718
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FWIW, I saw a post by someone French yesterday who said that if anybody British was still under the illusion that the EU would buckle at the last minute because they were concerned about losing the UK as a trading partner, they should know that he works in an industry with lots of imports and exports and basically nobody there is still even talking about Brexit, other than with mild bemusement and pity.

The EU would prefer that we stayed, and they would prefer to trade with us, but it's not going to be a huge deal for them if they don't. The EU is the largest economy, the largest single market, the largest trading bloc, and the largest exporter in the world. They'll cope.

They, on the other hand, are our largest trading partner. 43% of our exports and 51% of our imports are to and from the EU. The next largest is the US with 19% of exports and 11% of imports. We will definitely notice.
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Old 18th October 2020, 02:51 AM   #1719
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Every portaloo should have a plaque dedicating it to a prominant Brexiter.

Ideally with a footnote explaining which country their money/business/residence is now in.
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Old 18th October 2020, 02:57 AM   #1720
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
An 'Australian style future'?

Mad Max it is then.
When Gove assured us all that it wouldn't be a Mad Max style Apocalypse I immediately started welding spikes to my car. Mind you, I assumed his get out is 'it didn't rain constantly in Mad Max'.
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