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#321 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,191
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The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON |
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#322 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,670
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#323 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Norway
Posts: 557
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Covid attriuted deaths to date are with the gargantuan efforts by almost all the world's countries to keep those deaths down. Perhaps those numbers would have been higher without that effort? What do you think? Suppose New York had just ignored it because, you know, we'll just replace the dead with babies in a few days. What would New York's healthcare system look like now? Use your imagination. I know that if I was a doctor or nurse there in that situation I would have just quit. I think I'm a nice enough person, but I'm not putting my life on the line.
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#324 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,252
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#325 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,716
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"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills |
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#326 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,716
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__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills |
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#327 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Norway
Posts: 557
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#328 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,031
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First Dog on the moon has a very pointed cartoon this week regarding Victoria's shutdown.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...d-of-the-virus |
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I wish I knew how to quit you |
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#329 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,670
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Just looked..KBF idiocy without the hashtag.
Over on Scrutable.science there's a thread titled "Reckless public engagement - authorities outside their expertise" which is about stuff like this. Lots of people who have learned to make graphs in Excel, and often torture data, or just make up correction factors - like https://twitter.com/AlistairHaimes who's blocked me. On a personal note, I'm glad that it's not just engineers who are cranks this time round. I've just posted the Israel data as a reply to one of his tweets at you, because it has a classic second wave. Which looks to be peaking with the reimposition of restrictions. |
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#330 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,434
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#331 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,434
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__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#332 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 30,972
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#333 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,252
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#334 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,434
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__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#335 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 30,972
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#336 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,327
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That was exactly what I thought of doing. But I really couldn't be bothered. I didn't really try to counter any of it because it seemed like a pointless rabbit-hole. My first thought was the USA, but then I thought, well he'd just say the first peak was the NE, New York and thereabouts, and the second peak was in the south. It's like Italy and the UK peaking at different times but all allocated to one country instead of a continent. Then I thought about Israel and thought he might say that this was really the first peak, that they hadn't had a first peak. I mean obviously because they'd locked down fast in the first instance and you can see where the flaw is in his reasoning if he thinks lockdowns don't do anything, but frankly I couldn't be bothered. If you get a response, do post the link. |
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"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
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#337 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,336
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#338 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,327
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Scotland is gearing up to use the Irish app. If it does, I'll participate. I'd never have let the Boris model near my phone, I'd have given up the phone (or never taken it out of the house) first.
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"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
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#339 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,670
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__________________
OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#340 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,327
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I've seen some of it because I'm still tagged in.
![]() I don't mind discussing this sort of thing where someone is genuinely looking for answers, but a committed zealot is a waste of electrons really. He's not even discussing my initial point which is that the timing of the peak is an absolute effect of the timing of the start of the lockdown and delaying the lockdown because you think that people will have tired of it all by the time the peak comes is so brain-dead I honestly don't have the words. |
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"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
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#341 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,252
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Peter Thomson won 5 British golf opens.
He said it is not how far you hit the ball, but how near. Stay on the fairway, don't overshoot the green into the rough (like Melbourne). Politicians should consider how near they are to elimination, that is the measure at any given time. Boris Johnson's covid game looks like my golf game. |
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#342 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 25,584
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The Japanese government doesn't seem too concerned with the second wave that is currently brewing.
Japan gov't will not ask people to forgo summer travel due to virus
Quote:
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A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare |
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#343 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,955
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#344 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Posts: 1,028
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Might be a bit harsh on the Irish system to have to deal with the movements of 70m people instead of 5m! But I can see a case for an ‘Island of Ireland’ approach - we used to do that for animal disease.
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#345 |
BOFH
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,359
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__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott. |
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#346 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,670
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__________________
OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#347 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,327
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I can't find the story on the BBC site now but I swear I read it yesterday. The Scottish government is in negotiations with the Irish government for Scotland to adopt the Irish app as well. I imagine when it's official we'll be told about it.
I discovered that my Android phone had automatically downloaded software for the aborted English contact tracing app and I was not a happy bunny at all. |
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"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
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#348 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,955
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__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#349 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,865
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#350 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,434
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__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#351 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,434
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__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#352 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 46,327
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The BBC did have a report on it though. Thanks for finding these.
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"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
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#353 |
BOFH
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,359
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Think of it like some of the early Amazon apps. You'd install from the app store then get a "service not available in your region" when you try to use it.
Also the NHS's rules on data use, access, retention etc are very strict. I deliberately stay away from all that as much as possible given the constraints of my job. I wish the fines for electoral offences were half as onerous. eta: And I believe they're giving it away in the same sense we do. We're delighted if someone wants to take our software and use it - free, it's all on public repos in github - but they have to build it, provide their own servers, data feeds etc. |
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"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott. |
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#354 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,955
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__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#355 |
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 47,974
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Are you sure that's what it was, and not the generic Covid-19 tracking enabling software?
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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#356 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Posts: 1,028
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?
I don’t have knowledge of the Irish technology, but if it’s similar to the system we have in Malaysia, you register at each building you enter except your home address, and the app sends that information to a central database. Businesses can get a QR code by registering (now compulsory). If someone tests positive, then the system is interrogated to see where they have been and contacts can be traced and tested. Here we have 30m people, and I assume the database has been made big enough to handle the check-ins of whatever the average number of movements is for a certain time period plus wriggle room. If businesses and individuals in, say, Thailand could download it and start registering, I wouldn’t be sure it could cope with the extra load. Thailand only has double the population of Malaysia, let alone 13 times. ETA - I see Wudang explained it better than me. Sorry. |
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#357 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,670
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Oh, million dollar challenge material there: https://twitter.com/lapogus1/status/1290385128586465283
Quote:
It's now over 6000, as a naive look at trends would have predicted. I asked if only 20% of the population are susceptible, how that squares with higher infection rates observed in particular outbreaks. https://twitter.com/ParkinJim/status...11119572647936 |
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#358 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,434
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__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#359 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,434
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So you don't know how the app works.
It's not built on centralised, server based, data storage. It uses Bluetooth and the Exposure Notification Service APIs to identify when one person comes in close contact with another on a given day (based on Bluetooth ‘handshakes’ from their devices). This is only logged if people spend more than 15 minutes within two metres distance (more-or-less, it is based on BT). Then if a person later voluntarily logs in the app that they have been diagnosed with Covid-19, anyone who was in close contact with them would be notified anonymously. If you are confirmed to have Covid-19 the HSE will ask for consent to collect the random IDs of the persons (well devices really) your phone has logged as being within close contact. This is done via a time-limited SMS code to allow for the data to be transferred. These identifiers are generated randomly and auto-delete after fourteen days. There is an entirely voluntary opt-in based Covid Check-In option in the app. You can log if you're feeling healthy that day or if you're displaying any symptoms (and the symptoms checklist includes the six sets). This will also help give the HSE an idea of the general population’s overall health without revealing specific personal information on users. Users are asked, not compelled, to provide certain personal information: age, gender and locality. The latter is quite coarse, e.g. Dublin south city, Galway county. No specific addresses. There's a further op-in to provide a contact number or email. Again, this is voluntary. The server loading in minimal, it's basically a peer-to-peer or decentralised model. Unlike the NHS attempt. Almost all data sent through the app requires explicit user op-in and consent; these settings can be changed at any time. It's in use by over a million people and has detected infection. |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#360 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,434
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__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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