Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

It's funny that this article describes the idea of a drug overdose as "gaslighting", given that it was written before the full bodycam video was released. That right there is your gaslighting.

And both autopsies say homicide.

[Shadowdweller]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

Complaining about how unfair it is they dominate the coverage doesn’t work either. But then, an outright denunciation creates an inner rift within the movement because it chills those who wouldn't do it themselves, but wink at it.

The significance of the Antifa misrepresentation isn't so much unfairness or exaggeration in media coverage.

It's the fact that so-called "Antifa" are the latest in a long line of fictionalized scapegoats used by the Right-Wing to deflect public attention away from solving the real, well-recognized issues; and to scare their base into toeing the party line. They have done this time and time again with:
* African-Americans
* Communists
* LGBT individuals
* Hippies
* "Welfare mothers"
* Drug addicts
* Muslims
* Immigrants

To name a token few. If we as a country are to move beyond being unable to so much as mount an effective response to a pandemic, let alone institute an effective health care system or solve longstanding criminal justice problems, it is imperative that the Right be held publicly accountable for their ********.

[Sherkeu]

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

The significance of the Antifa misrepresentation isn't so much unfairness or exaggeration in media coverage.

Does Antifa participate peacefully in protests?
As far as I know about their philosophy, peaceful protesting is not their tactic.

From what I have read and heard (from their own mouths) about their beliefs is that they believe in "preemptive self-defense" which allows them to come to a protest with violent intentions and think it is moral to do so to deter some anticipated "future" violence.

I'm not sure if the black-bloc is the same but they did the same things years ago with masks, weapons, fire, and projectiles. Same look, same MO. Europe and America. (recall the WTO protests in Seattle)

It could be the case that I have only seen the violent videos but I cannot find a large peaceful protest where Antifa showed up in good numbers and were not violent and/or destructive in their behavior. Can you?

[Silly Green Monkey]

If they're peaceful, the media isn't going to name them Antifa.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

Does Antifa participate peacefully in protests?

As far as I know about their philosophy, peaceful protesting is not their tactic.



From what I have read and heard (from their own mouths) about their beliefs is that they believe in "preemptive self-defense" which allows them to come to a protest with violent intentions and think it is moral to do so to deter some anticipated "future" violence.



I'm not sure if the black-bloc is the same but they did the same things years ago with masks, weapons, fire, and projectiles. Same look, same MO. Europe and America. (recall the WTO protests in Seattle)



It could be the case that I have only seen the violent videos but I cannot find a large peaceful protest where Antifa showed up in good numbers and were not violent and/or destructive in their behavior. Can you?

Well, you'll run into shifty rhetoric like "antifa isn't a group, it's an ideology" and "black bloc isn't a group, it's a tactic."

But my experience has been "it's the same people with different buzzwords this week."

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

Well, you'll run into shifty rhetoric like "antifa isn't a group, it's an ideology" and "black bloc isn't a group, it's a tactic."

But my experience has been "it's the same people with different buzzwords this week."

That's kinda the problem. It's always the same basic demographic, young people, usually white men, who think that they're "showing the man" by breaking the windows of Bank of America and the local Apple store - and who often end up trashing local businesses. In many ethnic enclaves, it's usually opportunistic young men who are pissed at the complete lack of opportunity - and corrupt police out of uniform who see an opportunity to profit.

Actual protest groups, who spend their time preparing medical supplies, contacting groups like the ACLU to alert lawyers and bail groups, ensuring leadership had no major risks (the Dallas Shooter had been kicked out of local activist groups due to his history of domestic violence, for example) despise this sort of thing. Police typically let them run wild, as it's good for their presser - like putting a tissue in a Starbucks order and calling it a tampon knowing that a lot of guys have no clue what one looks like, or the absurdity that became pointergate.

[Sherkeu]

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey

If they're peaceful, the media isn't going to name them Antifa.

But they ARE identifiable before any violence or destruction ensues- no matter if the media says so or not. They are all in black, backpacks, hidden weapons, masks (before Covid!), some with helmets and gasmasks as the ready. Nowadays they may have flak jackets or military looking wearables. They even have a flag though I havent seen it recently.

Has THAT group showed up to a large peaceful protest and not caused mayhem?

[Silly Green Monkey]

I frequently wear black because it's slimming, and I have a backpack. You can't tell from looking at me if I have a hidden weapon. It's weird, I've not been seeing many of the mask ads I saw before, because they were aimed at rightwingnut gun-toting counterculture and were flung into a terrible tailspin by masks going mainstream. All in black, helmets, gasmasks, military gear.....That's sounding more and more like that cop shot dead on the porch of another cop who wanted to shoot Antifa, and who is only being charged with manslaughter because he failed to correctly identify his target as a brother and not as the designated free-kill group...

[carlitos]

Originally Posted by Mumbles

That's kinda the problem. It's always the same basic demographic, young people, usually white men, who think that they're "showing the man" by breaking the windows of Bank of America and the local Apple store - and who often end up trashing local businesses. In many ethnic enclaves, it's usually opportunistic young men who are pissed at the complete lack of opportunity - and corrupt police out of uniform who see an opportunity to profit.
].

Could you please clarify your last sentence? Only one dash, not 2 double dashes around “corrupt police out of uniform” means that I can’t tell if the police are an object or subject of the action. I don’t think you mean that the police are looting ethnic enclaves, do you?

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Sherkeu

But they ARE identifiable before any violence or destruction ensues- no matter if the media says so or not. They are all in black, backpacks, hidden weapons, masks (before Covid!), some with helmets and gasmasks as the ready. Nowadays they may have flak jackets or military looking wearables. They even have a flag though I havent seen it recently.

Has THAT group showed up to a large peaceful protest and not caused mayhem?

You know that is based on republican lies and propaganda right? The vast majority of antifa are just basic protesters and those who monitor white supremacist forums and communications.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

You know that is based on republican lies and propaganda right? The vast majority of antifa are just basic protesters and those who monitor white supremacist forums and communications.

Prior to Charlottesville, they had no specific agenda other than latching on to whatever was already being protested.

Since Charlottesville, hard to say since there hasn't been any other major points of civil unrest. They have had some tense stand-offs with BLM at times.

Since Charlottesville, there are lots of people who know nothing about antifa prior to Charlottesville who take the label proudly, but share almost none of the previous behavior patterns.

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

You know that is based on republican lies and propaganda right? The vast majority of antifa are just basic protesters and those who monitor white supremacist forums and communications.

Not "antifa", which as much as Delphic Oracle may object really is just an ideology, even according to the FBI, the "black bloc anarchists", the clowns that actually show up to protests to cause problems.

Although it seems like, increasingly, these are just white supremacists and other far-right folks looking to cause trouble.

[uke2se]

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

Prior to Charlottesville, they had no specific agenda other than latching on to whatever was already being protested.

Since Charlottesville, hard to say since there hasn't been any other major points of civil unrest. They have had some tense stand-offs with BLM at times.

Since Charlottesville, there are lots of people who know nothing about antifa prior to Charlottesville who take the label proudly, but share almost none of the previous behavior patterns.

Their agenda before, during and after Charlottesville has been to oppose fascism by whatever means necessary. That's been true since the start. You must be thinking of people who aren't Antifa.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by uke2se

Their agenda before, during and after Charlottesville has been to oppose fascism by whatever means necessary. That's been true since the start. You must be thinking of people who aren't Antifa.

I was responding to:

"The vast majority of antifa are just basic protesters and those who monitor white supremacist forums and communications."

As my history of interaction showed a clear contrast of behaviors between those identifying as antifa and a more generalized average protestor and no evidence of a specific stance on race issues or monitoring of hate channels online (in that era, that was more of an Anonymous thing).

Ferguson and the rise of BLM saw this new feature (not entirely new since glomming on to whatever is already going on is their most consistent stance). It has not been an entirely welcome partnership and standoffs and denouncements have gone both ways.

One of my favorites was chanting at a black man telling them to cool it "he's a cop."

ETA: in my mind, this is basically the kind of people who lead to the Committee of Public Safety and all that came with it. I can't tell you how many of them will spout quotes romanticizing a transitional period of violent terror from the early careers from Robspierre or others, seeming to miss how many of them were put to death to great celebration by their own movements.

[portlandatheist]

Originally Posted by uke2se

Their agenda before, during and after Charlottesville has been to oppose fascism by whatever means necessary. That's been true since the start. You must be thinking of people who aren't Antifa.

Was the stabbing of "Black Rebel" during the Portland protests by Antifa an example of opposing fascism?

ETA (the guy is completely crazy but that doesn't mean he should be stabbed)

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

Was the stabbing of "Black Rebel" during the Portland protests by Antifa an example of opposing fascism?

ETA (the guy is completely crazy but that doesn't mean he should be stabbed)

Hold on a minute, we don't actually know what the motives of his attacker were yet.

However, protestors held his attacker down for arrest, exactly as expected.

[Skeptic Ginger]

moved to the appropriate thread

[uke2se]

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

Was the stabbing of "Black Rebel" during the Portland protests by Antifa an example of opposing fascism?

ETA (the guy is completely crazy but that doesn't mean he should be stabbed)

Guess you're going to have to ask the person who did the stabbing. Do you think Antifa-ideology (anti-Fascism through any means) led him to stab that person?

ETA: Antifa isn't a person, so Antifa didn't stab anyone.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Anyone have any definitive body count by protesters in support of BLM? The CHOP shooting comes to mind, and this stabbing.

We know for a fact that several killings have taken place by counter protesters, and the list of serious maiming by cops and counter protesters is quite long. Just by my quick assessment, it's quite clear that the protesters in the streets are the least violent of all the groups involved.

Just off the top of my head:

Boog boys arrested by feds in bombing plot out of Nevada
Boog boy kills federal security officers with illegal machine gun/silencer combo.
Albuquerque man assaults 3 and shoots one to defend the honor of a statue.
Portland Pipe bomber.
Numerous examples of deliberate maiming by police using rubber bullets
The National Guard guy facing a discharge for plotting to kill DC protesters, sharing plans on nazi social media
KKK leader driving car into protesters, recently convicted
Philly cop charged with aggravated battery on protester
Cop shoot fellow officer through door fearing antifa.
Buffalo cops crack old man's head


It seems by any objective matter, BLM protesters are the least dangerous group compared to cops or counter protesters.

I think more people have been blinded by cops shooting rubber bullets than the grand total of serious assaults or actual murders by BLM protesters.

[Shadowdweller]

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

Was the stabbing of "Black Rebel" during the Portland protests by Antifa an example of opposing fascism?

ETA (the guy is completely crazy but that doesn't mean he should be stabbed)

Is there actually any evidence linking Hampe (i.e. the stabber) to Antifa? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that there is such a link... Of course, Duncomb (aka Black Rebel) might also possibly have his own ties to organizations that explicitly promote violence; have been doing things like...trolling the crowds outside the federal courthouse that are still protesting Trump's deployment of federal agents... with, for example, a giant we heart Trump sign; and have physically grabbed the guy and demanded to know what said individual was doing BEFORE being stabbed.

[carlitos]

Just checking in to read Ziggurat’s evidence for George Floyd having a “massive overdose.” I’d hate to think that a poster on a skeptics board would just mindlessly parrot a right wing talking point and then run away once the next talking point comes along.

[rockysmith76]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I don't think its ok. I don't think you're going to find many on the left that thinks it is ok. The problem is hooligans too often co-opt protests.

More denial, this was Antifa and the Boogiloos, proving both sides suck and are equally guilty.

[SuburbanTurkey]

I'm just curious, since we're going on over 2 months of continuous protests in Portland, how many more nights of tear gas and beatings should go on before there is just a general acknowledgment that PPB's tactics are totally ineffective in keeping the peace?

Even if you characterize these events of riots instigated by criminals, isn't it quite clear now that the current heavy handed tactics are an abysmal failure?

What further force can the cops use? They've got the full inventory of less lethal technology at work and it's not doing crap. If anything, it's further antagonizing the public and provoking a further escalation from the mobs. Should they start firing live rounds into the crowd? What's left for them to do?

Isn't it time to admit that this attempt to suppress the protests has completely failed and change tactics?

[Shadowdweller]

Btw, here's one of the groups that does appear to have ties to some of the more destructive protests/riots in Portland (two different links there). I generally support police reform and BLM, but these people are seriously ******* insane. Or at least some of them are. As in, want to stop other people from even talking to the police, want to abolish police altogether; and possibly private property.

More anarchist than Antifa as far as I can tell. But YMMV.

[portlandatheist]

Originally Posted by Mumbles

Hold on a minute, we don't actually know what the motives of his attacker were yet.

However, protestors held his attacker down for arrest, exactly as expected.

To their much deserved credit. The original article didn't have the details about the "Black Rebel"s previous political activities and it was added later.
Clearly the guy is trouble.

[portlandatheist]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Anyone have any definitive body count by protesters in support of BLM? The CHOP shooting comes to mind, and this stabbing.

We know for a fact that several killings have taken place by counter protesters, and the list of serious maiming by cops and counter protesters is quite long. Just by my quick assessment, it's quite clear that the protesters in the streets are the least violent of all the groups involved.

Just off the top of my head:

Boog boys arrested by feds in bombing plot out of Nevada
Boog boy kills federal security officers with illegal machine gun/silencer combo.
Albuquerque man assaults 3 and shoots one to defend the honor of a statue.
Portland Pipe bomber.
Numerous examples of deliberate maiming by police using rubber bullets
The National Guard guy facing a discharge for plotting to kill DC protesters, sharing plans on nazi social media
KKK leader driving car into protesters, recently convicted
Philly cop charged with aggravated battery on protester
Cop shoot fellow officer through door fearing antifa.
Buffalo cops crack old man's head


It seems by any objective matter, BLM protesters are the least dangerous group compared to cops or counter protesters.

I think more people have been blinded by cops shooting rubber bullets than the grand total of serious assaults or actual murders by BLM protesters.

You are a scorekeeper, you do it all the time, and I honestly don't understand the point of this exercise. Yes, the violent, racist and completely nutty right-wingers are far worse and far more dangerous. We all get that. For example:
Timothy McVeigh was also a revolutionary with an obsession for attacking a federal building and disregard for human lives inside and that is far far worse than these current events and revolutionaries and their attacks on the federal building and their relative disregard for the lives inside. What is happening now is far far tamer. What's your point exactly? When they light small fires inside the occupied building, they get a pass because it isn't a fertilizer bomb? Boog boys are worse than Antifa. Yes, but so what?

[uke2se]

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

You are a scorekeeper, you do it all the time, and I honestly don't understand the point of this exercise. Yes, the violent, racist and completely nutty right-wingers are far worse and far more dangerous. We all get that. For example:
Timothy McVeigh was also a revolutionary with an obsession for attacking a federal building and disregard for human lives inside and that is far far worse than these current events and revolutionaries and their attacks on the federal building and their relative disregard for the lives inside. What is happening now is far far tamer. What's your point exactly? When they light small fires inside the occupied building, they get a pass because it isn't a fertilizer bomb? Boog boys are worse than Antifa. Yes, but so what?

It's about intent. You clearly don't like Antifa or their actions, and you claim not to like the Fascists that they are protesting. You are square in the middle, and like most centrists, are spending most of your time complaining about those on the left. However, there is a reason people keep telling you the Fascists are clearly who you should be worrying about, and it's all about intent. What is the intent of the Fascists, and what is the intent of Antifa?

[portlandatheist]

Originally Posted by uke2se

It's about intent. You clearly don't like Antifa or their actions, and you claim not to like the Fascists that they are protesting. You are square in the middle, and like most centrists, are spending most of your time complaining about those on the left. However, there is a reason people keep telling you the Fascists are clearly who you should be worrying about, and it's all about intent. What is the intent of the Fascists, and what is the intent of Antifa?

so here in portland we have left wingers engaged in law enforcement LARPing and right wingers engaged in law enforcement LARPing. I don't favor any variety of centrist or middle ground LARPing, I think LARPing is stupid game with stupid prizes. That isn't being a "centrist"

[Silly Green Monkey]

When people who are protesting are condemned in the same breath as those who are committing crimes, is not the claim being made that protesting is a crime? Stop them when you stop the arsonists setting fires and the officers beating the protesters, all at once?

[uke2se]

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

so here in portland we have left wingers engaged in law enforcement LARPing and right wingers engaged in law enforcement LARPing. I don't favor any variety of centrist or middle ground LARPing, I think LARPing is stupid game with stupid prizes. That isn't being a "centrist"

Describing what's happening as "LARPing" is very 4-chan. Nobody is "LARPing". People are protesting very real fascists doing very real harm, and those very real fascists are hitting back.

[Shadowdweller]

Originally Posted by uke2se

Describing what's happening as "LARPing" is very 4-chan. Nobody is "LARPing". People are protesting very real fascists doing very real harm, and those very real fascists are hitting back.

People are also doing things like claiming to peacefully protest whilst also throwing bottles, rocks, fireworks at police; spitting at them during a pandemic; setting fires to public buildings with people inside. And, oh yeah, threatening to sexually assault police officers.

[uke2se]

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

People are also doing things like claiming to peacefully protest whilst also throwing bottles, rocks, fireworks at police; spitting at them during a pandemic; setting fires to public buildings with people inside. And, oh yeah, threatening to sexually assault police officers.

And the police are brutalizing people, including minors and journalists. How is any of this related to what I wrote?

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

You are a scorekeeper, you do it all the time, and I honestly don't understand the point of this exercise. Yes, the violent, racist and completely nutty right-wingers are far worse and far more dangerous. We all get that. For example:
Timothy McVeigh was also a revolutionary with an obsession for attacking a federal building and disregard for human lives inside and that is far far worse than these current events and revolutionaries and their attacks on the federal building and their relative disregard for the lives inside. What is happening now is far far tamer. What's your point exactly? When they light small fires inside the occupied building, they get a pass because it isn't a fertilizer bomb? Boog boys are worse than Antifa. Yes, but so what?

My point about score keeping is that he police response is very disproportionate and this clearly exposes a political element to policing. The cops are absolutely hysterical about the danger of liberal and left wing protesters, while downplaying (if not enabling) the danger of right wing street brawlers and militias.

Setting that aside, I'm curious what you want to see done here.

Nobody can accuse the PPB on being too permissive with these protests. They routinely declare unlawful assemblies, gas, beat, and arrest protesters, and yet the protests continue. How many more months must pass before Wheeler accepts that the police aren't going to be successful using police brutality to end protests about police brutality? There's no much room for police escalation short of lethal violence, and there's no indication that would even dissuade the crowds.

[Shadowdweller]

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

Timothy McVeigh was also a revolutionary with an obsession for attacking a federal building and disregard for human lives inside and that is far far worse than these current events and revolutionaries and their attacks on the federal building and their relative disregard for the lives inside. What is happening now is far far tamer. What's your point exactly? When they light small fires inside the occupied building, they get a pass because it isn't a fertilizer bomb? Boog boys are worse than Antifa. Yes, but so what?

Originally Posted by uke2se

It's about intent. You clearly don't like Antifa or their actions, and you claim not to like the Fascists that they are protesting. You are square in the middle, and like most centrists, are spending most of your time complaining about those on the left. However, there is a reason people keep telling you the Fascists are clearly who you should be worrying about, and it's all about intent. What is the intent of the Fascists, and what is the intent of Antifa?

Originally Posted by portlandatheist

so here in portland we have left wingers engaged in law enforcement LARPing and right wingers engaged in law enforcement LARPing. I don't favor any variety of centrist or middle ground LARPing, I think LARPing is stupid game with stupid prizes. That isn't being a "centrist"

Originally Posted by uke2se

And the police are brutalizing people, including minors and journalists. How is any of this related to what I wrote?

I can't speak for Portlandatheist. But I would tend to guess that he or she is saying that the acts of aggression and political theater (re: LARPing) on the part of one group don't justify those on the part of another.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

I can't speak for Portlandatheist. But I would tend to guess that he or she is saying that the acts of aggression and political theater (re: LARPing) on the part of one group don't justify those on the part of another.

The police have revealed themselves to be highly biased executors of law and order. Their willingness to enable right wing criminal violence, in which they are clearly ideologically aligned, is a glaring contrast to the disproportionate response they mete out to anti-police protesters.

That's an underlying problem in all these police discussions. The police are corrupt in the most fundamental way. They see their state-granted authority as a tool to advance their own interests. In this context, it means beating the ever living **** out of police reform protesters.

The viciousness of their tactics, such as deliberately targeting people's heads with ballistic weapons, or targeting journalists for arrest and abuse, shows that this is very much a personal battle for the police department.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller

People are also doing things like claiming to peacefully protest whilst also throwing bottles, rocks, fireworks at police; spitting at them during a pandemic; setting fires to public buildings with people inside. And, oh yeah, threatening to sexually assault police officers.

In the face of right wing authoritarians attempting to subvert democracy and establish a dictatorship, are those actions too aggressive or too weak? Context matters.

Also, what is to stop people who oppose that movement from going out and creating the violence themselves? If we accept the notion that a cause must be abandoned at any hint of violence, a tiny minority of opponents could squash any movement demanding social change, no matter how peaceful and popular.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

The police have revealed themselves to be highly biased executors of law and order. Their willingness to enable right wing criminal violence, in which they are clearly ideologically aligned, is a glaring contrast to the disproportionate response they mete out to anti-police protesters.

That's an underlying problem in all these police discussions. The police are corrupt in the most fundamental way. They see their state-granted authority as a tool to advance their own interests. In this context, it means beating the ever living **** out of police reform protesters.

The viciousness of their tactics, such as deliberately targeting people's heads with ballistic weapons, or targeting journalists for arrest and abuse, shows that this is very much a personal battle for the police department.

Okay.

Now... why can't I condemn the actions of people setting fire to buildings that have other people trapped inside of them too?

[Emily's Cat]

You guys do know that portlandatheist has been very clearly supportive of the peaceful protesters and their complaint, right? Why can't s/he also be opposed to violence and aggression?

[Distracted1]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Okay.

Now... why can't I condemn the actions of people setting fire to buildings that have other people trapped inside of them too?

Because they are only using a hint of violence in their defense against right wing authoritarians attempting to subvert democracy and establish a dictatorship.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

My point about score keeping is that he police response is very disproportionate and this clearly exposes a political element to policing. The cops are absolutely hysterical about the danger of liberal and left wing protesters, while downplaying (if not enabling) the danger of right wing street brawlers and militias.

Setting that aside, I'm curious what you want to see done here.

Nobody can accuse the PPB on being too permissive with these protests. They routinely declare unlawful assemblies, gas, beat, and arrest protesters, and yet the protests continue. How many more months must pass before Wheeler accepts that the police aren't going to be successful using police brutality to end protests about police brutality? There's no much room for police escalation short of lethal violence, and there's no indication that would even dissuade the crowds.

There seems to be a weird disconnect with some people. For some reason police, who we should be expecting more from, are being given a pass while protestors fuelled by legitimate anger are being held to unrealistic expectations in order to justify authoritarian crackdowns.

Police are part of larger organizations that can be and are trained and lead to behave in a certain way. While there will still be one-offs and exceptions, we should EXPECT police to be peaceful and well behaved. If they don’t then it’s fair to hold the whole group accountable.

Conversely protests generally have no such training or leadership but fueled by legitimate anger can generally be expected to have a lot of people who end up behaving badly. This in no way diminishes the importance of what people are protesting about. If this is a licence to dismiss protests against legitimate injustice, then you are in effect supporting the creation of an unjust authoritarian regime.