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Old 25th September 2020, 05:59 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It wasn't anonymous was it? I thought it was just under a different name. It's entirely possible that she had parents if not students as Facebook friends or friends of friends who may stumble upon it.
Getting desperate. Pretty sad really.
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Old 25th September 2020, 06:05 AM   #162
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It is very strange that bigotry performed under the guise of religion is not only tolerated, it is protected by law. It's messed up and the sooner their protection goes the way of the dodo, the better.
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Old 25th September 2020, 06:19 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Discriminating against LGBTQ+ people is also illegal though. And she definitely seems to be advocating that.
Although as you mentioned previously that seems to be allowed as long as you couch it in the Bible.[/quote]

Only in certain circumstances. And unfortunately Christianity (as a generalisation of the main strands in the UK) have had their abuse and hatred grandfathered in and are protected under our right to freedom of expression and freedom of religion.
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Old 25th September 2020, 06:20 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
It is very strange that bigotry performed under the guise of religion is not only tolerated, it is protected by law. It's messed up and the sooner their protection goes the way of the dodo, the better.
Did I mention Voltaire earlier?

Please let me know what I can say and what I canít. The law in just about every jurisdiction Iím aware of allows free speech. There are sanctions against vilification and hate speech, but not expressing opinions.

To repeat myself, I do not approve of the opinions of the woman in question. But if she otherwise does her job, she should be allowed to do it.
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Old 25th September 2020, 06:27 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Getting desperate. Pretty sad really.
It is a potentially crucial part of the case because if she was contacting her fellow parents and/or staff with those types of posts it is probably grounds for gross misconduct.

Notice the very careful wording by the CLC in all of this, obviously they mention "shared" in their press release but made it sound as passive as possible.

https://christianconcern.com/ccpress...sex-education/

From how they word it I suspect that she did more than post the links and articles on her facebook page.
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Old 25th September 2020, 07:07 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Discriminating against LGBTQ+ people is also illegal though. And she definitely seems to be advocating that.

Although as you mentioned previously that seems to be allowed as long as you couch it in the Bible.
One little wrinkle is that it was a Church of England primary school.
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Old 25th September 2020, 07:13 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Depends on their contract and how they express such a view whether it breaches their contract or legislation.
Why would someone look at a contract in a case where someone denies the existence of something that has been clearly proven to exist?

How would a contract clause be worded to not take offense if an employee publicly denied the existence of homosexuals?
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Old 25th September 2020, 07:20 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Did I mention Voltaire earlier?

Please let me know what I can say and what I canít. The law in just about every jurisdiction Iím aware of allows free speech. There are sanctions against vilification and hate speech, but not expressing opinions.

To repeat myself, I do not approve of the opinions of the woman in question. But if she otherwise does her job, she should be allowed to do it.
This is not a free speech issue. Getting desperate? Pretty sad really.

ETA: Mandatory xkcd

Last edited by RedStapler; 25th September 2020 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 25th September 2020, 07:25 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Did I mention Voltaire earlier?

Yes, you wrote,
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Voltaire (maybe not him) etc.
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Old 25th September 2020, 07:50 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Why would someone look at a contract in a case where someone denies the existence of something that has been clearly proven to exist?
Because one would have to examine whether the existence of or means of expression of that denial breached any stated or implied terms of the contract. If a home economics teacher denied the existence of cirrocumulus clouds in a conversation in the pub, I suspect dismissal would be considered excessive. In this case there is a clear argument in favour of the claim that dismissal was reasonable, but it still needs to be examined and upheld by the relevant authorities.

Dave
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Old 25th September 2020, 10:15 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Because one would have to examine whether the existence of or means of expression of that denial breached any stated or implied terms of the contract. If a home economics teacher denied the existence of cirrocumulus clouds in a conversation in the pub, I suspect dismissal would be considered excessive. In this case there is a clear argument in favour of the claim that dismissal was reasonable, but it still needs to be examined and upheld by the relevant authorities.

Dave
I also asked how such a contract would be worded.

Because I've never seen a contract containing "If you talk **** about other people, especially trans and homosexual people, in public, you gon get fired, son!"

I don't think such a contract exists but maybe someone has an example.
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Old 25th September 2020, 12:19 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's quite a different thing since that is advocating for something that is illegal so would definitely fall foul of a typical employment contract.

Can we not just try and deal with what this case is about?
I guess you do understand that discriminating against people on the basis of sexuality is illegal in the UK, right?

https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights

Quote:
It is against the law to discriminate against anyone because of:

age
gender reassignment
being married or in a civil partnership
being pregnant or on maternity leave
disability
race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin
religion or belief
sex
sexual orientation
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Old 25th September 2020, 12:27 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Getting desperate. Pretty sad really.
Someone knew who she really was on that Facebook page, since they reported her to the school for what she said. Had that not been the case, none of this would have happened.

For Archie Gemmill Goal to point out this obvious fact isn't "desperation" (but calling him out as desperate probably is!)
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Old 25th September 2020, 12:39 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
I also asked how such a contract would be worded.

Because I've never seen a contract containing "If you talk **** about other people, especially trans and homosexual people, in public, you gon get fired, son!"

I don't think such a contract exists but maybe someone has an example.
It would be something like a clause that says

"The Company has a policy of LGBTQ+ inclusiveness in the hiring of, and interactions between, its staff and employees, and the treatment of, and interactions with clients and customers."

Then later, a statement in the Social Media Clause making it clear that staff and employees are not permitted to public go against Company policy

NOTE: Earlier, I posted the full social media clause of my business to give an idea what it looks like - http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5&postcount=69
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Old 25th September 2020, 01:10 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Someone knew who she really was on that Facebook page, since they reported her to the school for what she said. Had that not been the case, none of this would have happened.
To be fair, we don't have enough data to know much.

I can think of plenty of scenarios where she would have been caught out. Some random anonymous parent happening upon her FB page by accident seems a little unlikely to me, at least. I have never googled any of my kids teachers. Why would I?

However, if one of my kids came home from school and reported something, some event in the school, something religiously outrageous, then I would definitely be investigoogling.

As for reporting anonymously, I have no issue with that. The FB posts are right there to be read. The school does not need my name at that point, nor would I want my kid to be victimised by being identified.

Is that more likely? Maybe. WE do not and cannot know...yet.

Both of mine are like myself, atheist. Both have had a religious nutter as a teacher. Both try to provoke me into a confrontation with said teacher because they know I would destroy his nonsense easily. But I always dodge out. Because I realise that would cause fallout for them and I do not want that.

But the simple fact is that there exist teachers who are unable to stop proselitizing in the classroom even though they are not supposed to.

I would really love to have a jolly good carve at that guy, but I dare not. He is in a position to make my kids lives miserable, and he would. He is RC and has been censured for his treatment of those kids of other faiths.

I will happily stand up for myself. I will happily stand up for my kids. But I will not put them in harms way.

So I went a different way. I started a home bible study. I took a certain glee in pointing out the horrors contained in the magic book and the pointy questions they could ask.

He probably hates me now, but why should I care. I made a point of having them equipped with chapter and verse so that when he denied that it was in the bible, they could point it out. It was a rather satisfying revenge.
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Old 25th September 2020, 03:00 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It would be something like a clause that says

"The Company has a policy of LGBTQ+ inclusiveness in the hiring of, and interactions between, its staff and employees, and the treatment of, and interactions with clients and customers."

Then later, a statement in the Social Media Clause making it clear that staff and employees are not permitted to public go against Company policy

NOTE: Earlier, I posted the full social media clause of my business to give an idea what it looks like - http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5&postcount=69
Thanks, I honestly wasn't aware that such clauses even exist.
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Old 25th September 2020, 04:09 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Thanks, I honestly wasn't aware that such clauses even exist.
Many companies, as well as organisations such as National and local sporting bodies, have inclusiveness statements and clauses in their Mission Statements and contracts.

There are at least two types of people who hate this... white supremacists and Fundamentalist Christians
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Old 25th September 2020, 05:16 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It would be something like a clause that says

"The Company has a policy of LGBTQ+ inclusiveness in the hiring of, and interactions between, its staff and employees, and the treatment of, and interactions with clients and customers."

Then later, a statement in the Social Media Clause making it clear that staff and employees are not permitted to public go against Company policy

NOTE: Earlier, I posted the full social media clause of my business to give an idea what it looks like - http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5&postcount=69
Yeah I've just signed an employment contract which stated:

"13) Equal Opportunities
The Company is committed to a policy of equal opportunities and non-discrimination. All employees are required to comply with the Companyís policy on equal opportunities. Any employee found to be in breach of the policy, including discriminating, bullying, or harassing another employee or any third party associated with the Company will be subject to the Companyís Disciplinary Procedure. A copy of the Companyís Equal Opportunities Policy, and the Discrimination and Harassment Procedure, which do not form part of your contract of employment, is provided to you separately and is available from your Manager. Deliberate acts of discrimination or harassment are considered to be gross misconduct."
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Old 25th September 2020, 06:47 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Yeah I've just signed an employment contract which stated:

"13) Equal Opportunities
The Company is committed to a policy of equal opportunities and non-discrimination. All employees are required to comply with the Companyís policy on equal opportunities. Any employee found to be in breach of the policy, including discriminating, bullying, or harassing another employee or any third party associated with the Company will be subject to the Companyís Disciplinary Procedure. A copy of the Companyís Equal Opportunities Policy, and the Discrimination and Harassment Procedure, which do not form part of your contract of employment, is provided to you separately and is available from your Manager. Deliberate acts of discrimination or harassment are considered to be gross misconduct."
Nothing about social media.

Any evidence the woman question has done any of these things? Posting beliefs on Facebook in a different name is not in the same ball park.
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Old 25th September 2020, 07:39 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Nothing about social media.
Come on LK, you can do better that this!

That is just clause 13 - the discrimination clause. Social Media will be a different clause. In my contracts, discrimination, sexual harassment and inclusiveness is clause 11; Social Media is clause 15.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Any evidence the woman question has done any of these things? Posting beliefs on Facebook in a different name is not in the same ball park.
Is can't speak to what her contract says, but I will take an educated guess that it would be basically much the same as mine - and in the Social Media clause, mine specificity states...

"Posting anonymously or under a pseudonym is not a defense against violation of this clause"

Higgs posted under her Maiden name
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Old 25th September 2020, 07:45 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post


Is can't speak to what her contract says, but I will take an educated guess that it would be basically much the same as mine - and in the Social Media clause, mine specificity states...

"Posting anonymously or under a pseudonym is not a defense against violation of this clause"

Higgs posted under her Maiden name
Iíll bet it isnít in hers and this is why her case wasnít immediately thrown out by the tribunal.

More to my point though, nobody has demonstrated that she wasnít doing her job properly. All we have is guesses and inferences.

As Iíve said several times, I have no time for her beliefs, but I havenít yet seen good grounds for her dismissal.
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Old 25th September 2020, 08:00 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
More to my point though, nobody has demonstrated that she wasn’t doing her job properly. All we have is guesses and inferences.

As I’ve said several times, I have no time for her beliefs, but I haven’t yet seen good grounds for her dismissal.
....and that does not need to be demonstrated in order for a person to be sacked for misconduct. This isn't about whether she has done her job properly or not, its about her bigotry. If you worked for me, and you were THE most efficient worker on the staff, always met deadlines, always, got the job done, in every way, you did your job perfectly and without error, and then you called a black customer the n-word, you would be suspended on the spot, and subsequently sacked.
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Old 25th September 2020, 10:32 PM   #183
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Iíll try asking again (sorry if I missed a reply). I am Black. My guidance counselor posts on social media that Blacks are stupid and lazy and only good for digging ditches. Would I need ďproofĒ to not trust that they are providing the same quality career advice to me as they are to White students?
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Old 25th September 2020, 10:32 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
....and that does not need to be demonstrated in order for a person to be sacked for misconduct. This isn't about whether she has done her job properly or not, its about her bigotry. If you worked for me, and you were THE most efficient worker on the staff, always met deadlines, always, got the job done, in every way, you did your job perfectly and without error, and then you called a black customer the n-word, you would be suspended on the spot, and subsequently sacked.
There is no evidence that she has evangelized to her students. That is something that you have made up. Her dismissal is purely about her facebook posts.
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Old 25th September 2020, 10:48 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Iíll try asking again (sorry if I missed a reply). I am Black. My guidance counselor posts on social media that Blacks are stupid and lazy and only good for digging ditches. Would I need ďproofĒ to not trust that they are providing the same quality career advice to me as they are to White students?
Did your guidance counselor recommend that you get a ditch digging job?
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Old 25th September 2020, 11:03 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Did your guidance counselor recommend that you get a ditch digging job?
(In a context where you're not inclined/suited to digging ditches.)
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Old 26th September 2020, 12:02 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I guess you do understand that discriminating against people on the basis of sexuality is illegal in the UK, right?



https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights
You didn't described a situation in which homosexuals are being discriminated against (in the legal sense).
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Old 26th September 2020, 12:11 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Iíll bet it isnít in hers and this is why her case wasnít immediately thrown out by the tribunal.



More to my point though, nobody has demonstrated that she wasnít doing her job properly. All we have is guesses and inferences.



As Iíve said several times, I have no time for her beliefs, but I havenít yet seen good grounds for her dismissal.
No it wouldn't be thrown out immediately because the grounds of her appeal are freedom of expression and freedom of religion and such rights trump any civil contract. You can't "give up" your "human rights" no matter what employment contract you sign.
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Old 26th September 2020, 12:11 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Iíll try asking again (sorry if I missed a reply). I am Black. My guidance counselor posts on social media that Blacks are stupid and lazy and only good for digging ditches. Would I need ďproofĒ to not trust that they are providing the same quality career advice to me as they are to White students?
Yes.
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Old 26th September 2020, 01:26 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
As always I am stunned by the blinkered vision of the faithful. As was reported in The Guardian Article:



When one points out that homosexual behaviour is common in species other than human, or points to the multitude of "mistakes" God makes on a daily basis (as evidenced by physical deformities that everyone can see), it is shrugged of with not even a feeble argument by these faithful.
Yes, but this is a silly argument to make. If you are religious, then animals have no souls and are incapable of sin. If you are not, then some animals eat their young and whatever Jonathan Swift may say to justify the case, I don't think that this is a justification for eating babies.
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Old 26th September 2020, 01:32 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Why are we talking about crimes all of a sudden? She was sacked. Not jailed.

Her views are incompatible with teaching the curriculum and interacting with LGBTQ+ kids. By making them public she made her continued employment untenable.
Interestingly of course if the current hate crimes bill goes forward then this might be a crime (in Scotland).
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Old 26th September 2020, 01:45 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The school policy was to follow the government policy - you criticise one, you criticize them both.
I am sure that we will now see wholesale sacking of teachers who are critical of the governments policy on exams, return to school in the covid era, funding policies etc. The arguments that because she opposed government policy that was ipso facto school policy because it is a state school are hypocrisy justified because posters disagree with her views. Freedom of speech is nothing if it does not allow people to express opinions I disagree with. This is especially true when it is a government funded body that silences criticism of government policy. I think the argument that government education policy is therefore school education policy (at least for state schools) and therefore cannot be criticised by those working in the public sector is dubious. It would also follow that those working in the NHS cannot criticise government health policy. The only people who should be sacked for expressing opposition to government policy are members of the government. Do we really think that no one in the public sector should be allowed to express negative opinions of the present government?
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Old 26th September 2020, 01:51 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
USAin here, we just had two people in our organization sacked for bullying people on the facebook.

Off topic as it doesn't apply to England, where you have more rights to a job than in good old USA.
Bullying in the UK could be gross misconduct and therefore an instantly dismissible offence.
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Old 26th September 2020, 01:54 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There is no evidence that she has evangelized to her students. That is something that you have made up. Her dismissal is purely about her facebook posts....
In which she has evangelised her bigoted veiw of LGBTQ+, against the policy of her school.

Its difficult to fathom why a simple concept that a pre-teen could understand escapes the alleged intelligence of adults.
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Old 26th September 2020, 01:57 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I am sure that we will now see wholesale sacking of teachers who are critical of the governments policy on exams, return to school in the covid era, funding policies etc.
Only if those things are specified in their employment contracts.
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Old 26th September 2020, 02:05 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You didn't described a situation in which homosexuals are being discriminated against (in the legal sense).
Non sequitur.

Discrimination against anyone in any employment setting is illegal.

Advocating paedophilia in any setting, including employment, is illegal.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 26th September 2020 at 02:11 AM.
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Old 26th September 2020, 02:10 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Did your guidance counselor recommend that you get a ditch digging job?
She would not need to.

If she implied to any one that, because of the colour of his skin, it is all he was good for, then she has already personally demonstrated she is totally unsuited to her job.
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Old 26th September 2020, 02:23 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Only if those things are specified in their employment contracts.
She looks fairly old in the pictures, I wonder if her employment contract dated back to clause ? (the one when it was policy that schools did not promote homosexuality). I know that this is not a valid legal issue, but just making the point that a few years ago her views would have been absolutely in line with policy, and the CofE still does not recognise same sex marriage.

Personally I think her departure from her post is a good thing. I suspect that if she had been good at her job she would have received a last and final warning. I am sure there is more to this than has appeared in the press, but on the facts available I do think there is a freedom of speech issue.
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Old 26th September 2020, 02:29 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
https://christianconcern.com/ccpress...sex-education/

From how they word it I suspect that she did more than post the links and articles on her facebook page.
Not convinced.

Other things would have been brought up at the tribunal (and made the headlines in the Guardian).

The other oddity is the 6 hour disciplinary panel. That is a very long session over 2 private Facebook posts. It feels as if it could have been a snap decision with an expectation that an investigation would turn up stronger evidence.

EDIT: I suspect a lot of this may be tied up in the personalities involved - Headteachers often have a tendency towards being autocrats.

Last edited by Aber; 26th September 2020 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 26th September 2020, 02:44 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Only if those things are specified in their employment contracts.
You have a very naive view of employment contracts. They cannot include requirements which prohibit an employee from exercising their civil rights.

Well, they can, but they would not stand up to scrutiny by government authorities.

Can an employment contract require an employee of, say, a Catholic school, not to be an atheist and post on an atheist forum?
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