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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , joe biden , Trump conspiracies

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Old 4th December 2020, 11:58 AM   #241
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I think, in the years to come, lots of ph. d. s will be written on subjects like "Tendency to follow your leader beyond common sense". Not a large percentage, but some people will push on behind a strong leader (and much as we might hate it, Trump is that) long after most will have peeled away. The reason it right now seems like so many of them do is really because Trump has been cultivating those even from before the -16 campaign, carefully weeding out those that might not comply. That's the game he has been playing: It is hardly 4d chess, but it IS a quite mean game of checkers.

Hans

Jim Jones
L. Ron Hubbard
Marshall Applewhite
David Miscavage
Shoko Asahara
Joseph Di Mambro
Luc Jouret
David Koresh
Hyung Jin Moon

Bat-**** crazy every one of them.
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Old 4th December 2020, 12:15 PM   #242
MRC_Hans
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Jim Jones
L. Ron Hubbard
Marshall Applewhite
David Miscavage
Shoko Asahara
Joseph Di Mambro
Luc Jouret
David Koresh
Hyung Jin Moon

Bat-**** crazy every one of them.
Sure. He will be in excellent company. But I don't think he'll mind so much, as long as he'll get some spotlight.

Hans
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Old 4th December 2020, 01:04 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
can you engage this person on this issue, even very gently at first?
Nah. He's a good sailing buddy. I don't want to sully our occasional sails by pushing him hard.

I ask his opinion but I try not to debate. He is a very decent fellow, which makes his embrace of Trump really mystifying.
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Old 4th December 2020, 01:04 PM   #244
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Trump loses another one.
Quote:
‘Few lawsuits breathe more lies than this one’: Judge eviscerates Sidney Powell election lawsuit

Sidney Powell, the attorney who was distanced from the US president’s legal team because she pushed election-related conspiracies, was said to have submitted a lawsuit that “breathed more lies” than most cases seen in court, after she challenged Michigan’s election results.

Issuing a response to Ms Powell’s lawsuit on Thursday, judges for the City of Detroit said the lawsuit contained “warped logic”, and dismissed claims that vote machines had been tampered with, among other conspiracy theories.

“Few lawsuits breathe more lies than this one,” said the 45-page court document, which was shared online. “The allegations are little more than fevered rantings of conspiracy theorists built on the work of other conspiracy theorists”.

Judges went on to eviscerate the former Trump campaign attorney and her allegations, saying that some complaints had already been dismissed in Michigan’s courts, and others had not been considered by the president’s team because they were “off the wall”.

“If any of the conspiracy theories contained in this case had merit, they would have been brought in those cases or by the Trump campaign legal team,” said the court. “Even the Trump campaign lawsuits have avoided the off-the-walls claims included in this lawsuit."
Quote:
As well as a bruising assessment of her allegations, the court document went on to warn that Ms Powell wanted “nothing less than a court-ordered coup d’état."

"The fact that the Complaint is frivolous does not mean the lawsuit is not dangerous to our democracy,” it added.
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Old 4th December 2020, 01:09 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Thanks for the correction and pointing out the fallibility of human memory.

I recalled it as Ann Druyan, his wife, relating what he said on his deathbed. I was clearly conflating a couple of disparate memories.

But I don’t think that completely negates my point about differing world views.
I wasn't disputing your basic message, though I think there's probably a larger gray area than you let on. But this is enough of a digression.
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Old 4th December 2020, 01:20 PM   #246
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From the Michigan court story above:

Quote:
Judges went on to eviscerate the former Trump campaign attorney and her allegations, saying that some complaints had already been dismissed in Michigan’s courts, and others had not been considered by the president’s team because they were “off the wall”.
Taken literally, this would make for some pretty compelling video. I do think that's going a bit too far, though.
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Old 4th December 2020, 01:32 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I think most of the projection comes from Trump, who is definitely not above cheating. His followers parrot his idiocy. Their conceptual failure is not so much projection as blind faith in Trump.
You give them too much credit. Most of them certainly would cheat and lie (and do) to bolster their 'blind faith'. Which isn't really faith BTW, because deep down they know it's all lies.
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Old 4th December 2020, 01:33 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Of all the things Trump's tweeted lately, this one seems to me to be the most unhinged. Why would he need to tweet this? Does he think that there are people who don't quite understand that he thinks the election was rigged? Was there some significant ambiguity in all his previous tweets claiming that the election was rigged that he now feels this will clear up? Has there been a news report suggesting that he now thinks it was fair?

Presumably he just realised that it's a few minutes since he last tweeted anything, and though he hasn't actually got anything to say, he doesn't fell that he exists unless he's being actively obnoxious. But it feels like he's just knee-jerking now.

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Tweetrettes syndrome.
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Old 4th December 2020, 02:06 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
This is slightly inaccurate, as the referenced document is not the opinion of "judges," but rather the defendants' response to an emergency motion for an injunction, from plaintiffs. No decision has been rendered on the motion yet, or on the case to which it refers. But given the plaintiffs' many errors, you can probably guess the likely outcome.
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Old 4th December 2020, 02:35 PM   #250
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Ambiguity gives the reader the task of filling in all the blanks.

Election rigged, voting machines were tampered with.
Umm, pretty clear they were not if one accepts facts.

Just " election rigged" let's any redneck yahoo decide why or how it was rigged by something they already believe. It must be true.

Pretty cool psychology trick and effective if not overused.
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Old 4th December 2020, 03:39 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Of all the things Trump's tweeted lately, this one seems to me to be the most unhinged. Why would he need to tweet this? Does he think that there are people who don't quite understand that he thinks the election was rigged? Was there some significant ambiguity in all his previous tweets claiming that the election was rigged that he now feels this will clear up? Has there been a news report suggesting that he now thinks it was fair?

Presumably he just realised that it's a few minutes since he last tweeted anything, and though he hasn't actually got anything to say, he doesn't fell that he exists unless he's being actively obnoxious. But it feels like he's just knee-jerking now.

Dave
Rather than unhinged, I'm more likely to attribute it to Trump trying to capitalize on his primary field of expertise - conning people. Repetition and playing on people's availability heuristic are some of the simplest and, in Trump's case, most cost-effective means of pushing his attempted con. As has been noted elsewhere, Trump's managed to raise over $200 million dollars after election day, seemingly on the basis of his rigged election claims.
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Old 4th December 2020, 08:27 PM   #252
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From the even more nuttier CT thread

Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
It's a good thing that we're headed into a weekend, because I am SO tired of all this winning that I can hardly stand it.



https://lawandcrime.com/2020-electio...ies-in-nevada/
https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...-order_ocr.pdf

Really recommend reading the judgement, it goes through the allegations almost line by line and explains clearly the lack of supporting evidence.
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Old 4th December 2020, 09:56 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
From the even more nuttier CT thread



https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...-order_ocr.pdf

Really recommend reading the judgement, it goes through the allegations almost line by line and explains clearly the lack of supporting evidence.
I have only skimmed through so far. But it appears this court opinion is very impressive. Extremely precise and to the point with everything cited. A clear and concise review of all the points of evidence. Very well written.
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Old 5th December 2020, 03:13 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by hurdygurdy View Post
Trump's team star witness is a drunk woman who achieves the impossible feat of making Giulaini look embarrassed.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1334315220815278080
After only hearing her referred to as "Drunk Lady" or "Crazy Lady" and of course "Karen" in various places, I only just found out that her last name is "Carone" and there's a part of her testimony where she talks about "calling her manager over".

(time skipped to the appropriate moment)
https://youtu.be/G2f3aw9rk30?t=88

Edited to add: There's a tiny voice at the back of my mind that wonders if she was pulling off an elaborate prank. Apparently, she wasn't under oath, so I don't think there would be any consequences.
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Last edited by rdaneel; 5th December 2020 at 03:20 AM.
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Old 5th December 2020, 03:22 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
From the even more nuttier CT thread



https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...-order_ocr.pdf

Really recommend reading the judgement, it goes through the allegations almost line by line and explains clearly the lack of supporting evidence.
wow

You should add a rule to the MA, making this judgement required reading before a member is allowed to post in the CT section.
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Old 5th December 2020, 03:46 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I have only skimmed through so far. But it appears this court opinion is very impressive. Extremely precise and to the point with everything cited. A clear and concise review of all the points of evidence. Very well written.
I was very interested in the part about expert witnesses - I was asking about this a couple of days ago. The judge was very careful to not dismiss out of hand the contestors' expert witnesses but used the established judgements to qualify their level of expertise and their credibility.
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Old 5th December 2020, 04:17 AM   #257
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I'm getting more and more convinced that the Republicans used the Election Systems & Software (ES&S) to massively defraud Democrats in the Election, and their bashing of Dominon (which is the safer, better auditable system) is meant to distract and poison the well.
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Old 5th December 2020, 05:48 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I'm getting more and more convinced that the Republicans used the Election Systems & Software (ES&S) to massively defraud Democrats in the Election, and their bashing of Dominon (which is the safer, better auditable system) is meant to distract and poison the well.
Some Republicans, at least. It honestly wouldn't be a surprise, at all, not least because that's been a very real concern as Republicans keep trying to pick more expensive and less verifiable election systems, and certain... oddities in numbers. Georgia Republicans did that with a bunch of Dominion machines over distinct objections from the Georgia Democrats, in particular.
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Old 5th December 2020, 06:49 AM   #259
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Eric Trump Tweets

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Old 5th December 2020, 09:09 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by rdaneel View Post
After only hearing her referred to as "Drunk Lady" or "Crazy Lady" and of course "Karen" in various places, I only just found out that her last name is "Carone" and there's a part of her testimony where she talks about "calling her manager over"...
“Two years before she'd become the breakout star of the clown show Rudy Giuliani brought to Lansing this week, Mellissa Carone was sending her then-boyfriend's ex-wife graphic videos of the two of them having sex.

Police reports obtained by Deadline Detroit reveal obscenity and computer crime charges filed against the 33-year-old Grosse Pointe Woods mother stem from a harassment campaign she waged against a 42-year-old woman in 2018 and 2019...”

The degeneracy and depravity of the Trump mob never fails to impress.
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Old 5th December 2020, 09:25 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
From the even more nuttier CT thread



https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...-order_ocr.pdf

Really recommend reading the judgement, it goes through the allegations almost line by line and explains clearly the lack of supporting evidence.
My take-away is how the court addresses what I've seen a fair number of trump supporters crow about: the many, many "sworn affidavits" that attest to fraud, etc.

Quote:
Much of Contestants' evidence consists of non-deposition evidence in the form of witness declarations. These declarations fall outside the scope of the contest statute, which provides that election contests "shall be tried and submitted so far as may be possible upon depositions and written or oral argument as the court may order." NRS 293.415. The reason for this is to allow for the cross-examination of the deponent under oath.

These declarations also constitute hearsay, as they are out-of-court statements offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matters asserted. See NRS 51.035, 51.065; Cramer v. State, 126 Nev. 388, 392, 240 P.3d 8, 11 (2010) ("An affidavit is generally inadmissible hearsay."). Most of these declarations were self-serving statements of little or no evidentiary value.
This is probably very basic stuff, but to a lay person like me, this lays it out nicely.
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Old 5th December 2020, 11:06 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I was very interested in the part about expert witnesses - I was asking about this a couple of days ago. The judge was very careful to not dismiss out of hand the contestors' expert witnesses but used the established judgements to qualify their level of expertise and their credibility.
Indeed, this is a well-written, concise application of the Dauber standard, as shaped by additional decisions. Pp. 24-25 are especially instructive. But pp. 12-14 show what a judge would be looking for were these same witnesses the subject of motions in limine to exclude them as experts.

In the cases of witnesses Baselice and Kamzol, the judge notes that their conclusions were drawn from data of essentially unknown provenance. Experts must show that any data they've collected to inform their opinions and conclusions must follow good practices of data management. We pile all that together as "methodology." You have to be able to demonstrate to a legal standard of credence that your method is reliable. Unlike the Frye standard, that method doesn't have to be "generally accepted." But it has to refer to known good principles of observation and analysis.

Witness Gessler is non-credible in the judge's opinion because he did not verify information he collected that he had not personally observed. As the judge notes, affidavits are generally non-evidentiary because they do not subject the affidant to cross-examination. Mr Gessler's evidence is an affidavit summarizing other affidavits. As the judge explains later, first-hand knowledge is a critical element of expertise as the law recognizes it.

In contrast, defendants' experts testified in deposition, so that the contestants' counsel could examine them on the record. This is automatically stronger evidence than mere affidavits. And Judge Russell uses formulaic language to express why he qualifies them as witnesses: they have relevant experience, are not overtly biased, and speak from first-hand knowledge. The key is that these factors were available for voir dire in the deposition. Questions and answers, for example, intended to expose bias become part of the deposition and part of the record. This allows a trier of fact to weigh the evidence more appropriately.

In Dr. Herron's case, the judge goes on to note that other courts have examined him in the capacity of an expert witness and have found no reason to dismiss him. This can cut two ways, as in other cases witnesses can acquire the reputation of always being on one side of issues raised at law. This sets up the battle of commonly-called experts from case to case.

As you note, the judge says he could have disqualified the contestants' witnesses on grounds either of hearsay or of failure to qualify under Daubert. But as Loss Leader pointed out in a thread from last year, judges are reluctant to set themselves up as authorities on what constitutes expertise in some field. So while there are criteria a judge is meant to apply, the decisions are often on the side of allowing the testimony and deferring the credibility issue to the trier of fact.

Here, in a bench trial, the judge is both the gatekeeper for admissibility of expert opinion, but also the trier of fact. So he can accept (reluctantly) the proffered expertise of the constants' witnesses, but then in a different capacity he can give them little or no weight. This makes the decision far less likely to be challenged on appeal. A disqualification of a witness is appealable as an abuse of discretion.
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Old 5th December 2020, 11:10 AM   #263
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Today's update from Sidney Powell


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPR-vbMFLZ0
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Old 5th December 2020, 11:21 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
My take-away is how the court addresses what I've seen a fair number of trump supporters crow about: the many, many "sworn affidavits" that attest to fraud, etc.
A "sworn affidavit" sounds very impressive to Trump supporters. After all, it's under penalty of perjury. But perjury isn't charged every time someone lies under oath. It's a heavy hammer, so it's generally reserved for cases in which the perjury leads to real, cognizable injury on the part of another party.

But as Judge Russell notes, you can't bring an affidavit into court and expect it to be taken as evidence. Just because the affidant was sworn when he made the statement doesn't suffice, because the defendant has the right to challenge evidence against him. That means putting the affidant under oath and allowing a cross-examination.

Quote:
This is probably very basic stuff, but to a lay person like me, this lays it out nicely.
Obviously the style and form of legal writing has to follow strict rules. But we lay folk are meant to understand the modern rulings that govern our lives. It's not supposed to be hidden knowledge. I have a casebook from 1702 in my book collection. That, in contrast, was meant to be read only by other law experts. "An out-of-court statement offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted," is the definition of hearsay right out of law textbooks. But there's no reason it shouldn't appeal to and be understood by anyone who aspires to think clearly and critically.
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Old 5th December 2020, 11:31 AM   #265
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Trump Tweets

25, wow! I am surprised there are so many. We have just begun to fight. Please send me a list of the 25 RINOS. I read the Fake News Washington Post as little as possible!

Quote Tweet
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The Washington Post surveyed all 249 Republicans in the House and Senate. Only 25 would acknowledge that Joe Biden is president-elect. https://washingtonpost.com/politics/...839_story.html
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Old 5th December 2020, 11:32 AM   #266
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Trump Tweets

I will easily & quickly win Georgia if Governor @BrianKempGA or the Secretary of State permit a simple signature verification. Has not been done and will show large scale discrepancies. Why are these two “Republicans” saying no? If we win Georgia, everything else falls in place!

See you tonight at 7PM, Georgia!
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Old 5th December 2020, 11:37 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Just " election rigged" let's any redneck yahoo decide why or how it was rigged by something they already believe. It must be true.
Yes, it must be true because no way could more people have wanted Biden than Trump. We know that because Trump said so.

Let that sink in for a while. It's not about "election rigged", that's just the conclusion. The real lie they are swallowing is that Trump has more support - because he said so. So the question is, why would they believe without question something that he cannot possibly know?

Because they want to. But more than that, they need to believe that Trump is more popular and a winner, because their entire psyche depends on it. For years they have had to hide their true thoughts or put up with liberals calling them racist, misogynistic idiots. Trump fixed all that when he Made America Great Again, letting them proudly stand up to take their place as True Americans. But if Trump is actually a loser then he has been lying to them, and they are not only the racist, misogynistic idiots that liberals called them, but dupes as well.

Can you imagine how humiliating that would be? Therefore it cannot be so - someone else must be trying to dupe them - not because it's true, but the alternative is too depressing to contemplate. This is not just a matter of believing something that's more comfortable for them, but the only way to avoid losing their self-respect and spiraling into a state of suicidal depression. Their very lives depend on it!

Quote:
Pretty cool psychology trick and effective if not overused.
It can never be overused so long as the benefits keep coming.
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Old 5th December 2020, 11:38 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Today's update from Sidney Powell


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPR-vbMFLZ0
Tc, dw

That's "Too crazy. Didn't watch."
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Old 5th December 2020, 11:43 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by rdaneel View Post
After only hearing her referred to as "Drunk Lady" or "Crazy Lady" and of course "Karen" in various places, I only just found out that her last name is "Carone" and there's a part of her testimony where she talks about "calling her manager over".

(time skipped to the appropriate moment)
https://youtu.be/G2f3aw9rk30?t=88

Edited to add: There's a tiny voice at the back of my mind that wonders if she was pulling off an elaborate prank. Apparently, she wasn't under oath, so I don't think there would be any consequences.
She’s also a criminal. Seriously for computer fraud of some sort.
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Old 5th December 2020, 11:47 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Today's update from Sidney Powell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPR-vbMFLZ0
She must love those judicial beat downs. She says the same stupid crap over and over, even after it's been debunked and rejected as false.
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Old 5th December 2020, 11:51 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Tc, dw

That's "Too crazy. Didn't watch."
Watched it.

Well, what can I say? "Insanity comes quietly to the structured mind" (Janis Ian)

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Old 5th December 2020, 12:15 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Today's update from Sidney Powell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPR-vbMFLZ0
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Tc, dw

That's "Too crazy. Didn't watch."
That pretty much sums up everything Bubba has been linking to lately.

Bubba, after dutifully checking out the links you were posting earlier, and finding the content to be...

1. bat-**** crazy, and/or
2. complete, verifiable falsehoods, and/or
3. lacking in what you claimed it said, and/or
4. the exact opposite of what you said, and/or
5. unsupportive of your claims, and/or
6. actually a debunking of your claims

... I have decided to simply smile and scroll onto the next post when I see you have posted another link.

Bubba, none of this is an attack on you, its just an observation and a piece of advice. No-one here takes you seriously anymore. You have clearly not heard of "the boy who cried wolf", or if you have, the valuable lesson it gives has has been lost on you. If you keep presenting falsehoods and crazy stuff to this forum, eventually, people will regard you as a crazy liar. Even the usual suspects on this forum who come onto these threads to blindly defend Trump in all things, are notable by their absence - this election fraud stuff you are spamming is all too far off the wall even for them.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 5th December 2020 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 5th December 2020, 12:42 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
She’s also a criminal. Seriously for computer fraud of some sort.
Well, sort of. Wasn't the "computer fraud" was a plea deal down from something related to obscenity? She (allegedly) send videos of having sex with her boy friend to his ex-girl friend.
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Old 5th December 2020, 12:43 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That pretty much sums up everything Bubba has been linking to lately.

Bubba, after dutifully checking out the links you were posting earlier, and finding the content to be...

1. bat-**** crazy, and/or
2. complete, verifiable falsehoods, and/or
3. lacking in what you claimed it said, and/or
4. the exact opposite of what you said, and/or
5. unsupportive of your claims, and/or
6. actually a debunking of your claims

... I have decided to simply smile and scroll onto the next post when I see you have posted another link.

Bubba, none of this is an attack on you, its just an observation and a piece of advice. No-one here takes you seriously anymore. You have clearly not heard of "the boy who cried wolf", or if you have, the valuable lesson it gives has has been lost on you. If you keep presenting falsehoods and crazy stuff to this forum, eventually, people will regard you as a crazy liar. Even the usual suspects on this forum who come onto these threads to blindly defend Trump in all things, are notable by their absence - this election fraud stuff you are spamming is all too far off the wall even for them.


Because otherwise regarding this topic, a certain house of cards will continue collapsing.


More fraud is exposed with each passing day. Time will tell.

Last edited by Bubba; 5th December 2020 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 5th December 2020, 01:02 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
More fraud is exposed with each passing day.
Trump and his minions are making fraudulent claims about the election. That's the only significant election fraud so far.
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Old 5th December 2020, 01:20 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Trump and his minions are making fraudulent claims about the election. That's the only significant election fraud so far.
More fraud? The Trump and his morons kinda hafta find fraud first before they start blathering about more. But as usual, the incontinent incompetent in the White House gets everything ass-backwards like his idiot supporters.

Shot down at the election booth, shot down in court, humiliated at the fake hearings, this dysfunctional administration, and it's laughable legal team can't help but step on the garden rake, tines side up.

Last edited by Resume; 5th December 2020 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 5th December 2020, 02:31 PM   #277
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Trump Tweets

But you never got the signature verification! Your people are refusing to do what you ask. What are they hiding? At least immediately ask for a Special Session of the Legislature. That you can easily, and immediately, do. #Transparency
Quote Tweet

Brian Kemp
@BrianKempGA
As I told the President this morning, I’ve publicly called for a signature audit three times (11/20, 11/24, 12/3) to restore confidence in our election process and to ensure that only legal votes are counted in Georgia. #gapol twitter.com/realdonaldtrum…
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Old 5th December 2020, 03:12 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Because otherwise regarding this topic, a certain house of cards will continue collapsing.
Yep, your house of cards.

You have made no effort to produce the "complete statement" by Barr that you claimed to have, nor any explanation as to why you haven't, yet you continue to post other drivel. Therefore I conclude that you lied.

California has now certified their results, and Joe Biden is officially the winner. No amount of flailing will change that. Your goose is cooked.
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Old 5th December 2020, 03:27 PM   #279
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Trump Tweets

Between Governor @DougDucey of Arizona and Governor @BrianKempGA of Georgia, the Democrat Party could not be happier. They fight harder against us than do the Radical Left Dems. If they were with us, we would have already won both Arizona and Georgia...

...We received more LEGAL votes by far. All I can do is run, campaign, and be a good (great!) President – it is 100% up to the states to manage the election. Republicans will NEVER forget this.
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Old 5th December 2020, 03:32 PM   #280
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Trump tweets:

Whine, bitch, piss, moan, cry, sob, whine, bitch, piss, moan, cry, sob, soil my pants, again . . .
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