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Tags death penalty , death penalty issues , donald trump , executions , Trump controversies

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Old 13th December 2020, 07:35 AM   #41
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, part of my problem with this whole thing is... that the controversy is around whether or not it is seemly to do this during a transistion. Is that really the point?

People are opposed to Trump because these are happening during a transitition, whereas the Democrats are saying, "Oh puh-leaze! wait until we get to do it!"
Horse ****.

Prior to Trump there hadn't been a Federal Execution since 2003 and the first during the lame duck period in over 130 years.

We went the entire Obama Administration and like... 3/4ths of the Bush administration without one.

I doubt Biden and Harris were just waiting on January to roll around so they could clear out Death Row. Spare me the "Stop making it about Trump" hysterics. He's literally going on a killing spree because his dick feels small because he lost an election and we're being mean by not letting him steal it back.
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Old 13th December 2020, 07:52 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Busta Capp View Post
The death penalty exists for a reason.
Yes. To appeal to the blood-thirst of the ignorant and rouse Republican voters.

Originally Posted by Busta Capp View Post
<snippage>
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Old 13th December 2020, 07:55 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Somehow you guys always forget about "preventing that happening again" part.
I await your science based justification for the supposed deterrent effect of execution.
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Old 13th December 2020, 09:39 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
I await your science based justification for the supposed deterrent effect of execution.
To be fair, that was a reference to the huge number of murders committed by people sentenced to life without parole.
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Old 13th December 2020, 12:46 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Horse ****.

Prior to Trump there hadn't been a Federal Execution since 2003 and the first during the lame duck period in over 130 years.

We went the entire Obama Administration and like... 3/4ths of the Bush administration without one.

I doubt Biden and Harris were just waiting on January to roll around so they could clear out Death Row. Spare me the "Stop making it about Trump" hysterics. He's literally going on a killing spree because his dick feels small because he lost an election and we're being mean by not letting him steal it back.
Biden has said he wants to abolish the federal death penalty and encourage the states to do so. Trump wants to get as many executions in as possible before that happens. He'll be a WINNER!

Quote:
As Donald Trumpís presidency winds down, his administration is ratcheting up the pace of federal executions despite a surge of coronavirus cases in prisons, announcing plans for five starting Thursday and concluding just days before the Jan. 20 inauguration of President-elect Joe Biden.

If the five go off as planned, it will make 13 executions since July when the Republican administration resumed putting inmates to death after a 17-year hiatus and will cement Trump's legacy as the most prolific execution president in over 130 years. He'll leave office having executed about a quarter of all federal death-row prisoners, despite waning support for capital punishment among both Democrats and Republicans.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wire...gural-74579070
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Old 13th December 2020, 12:54 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The Bible calls for a lot of stuff including stuff that contradicts almost all the other stuff.
This.

Sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised by a post that actually indicates the member has a working knowledge of what he or she is commenting about.

To quote the late John Prine:

"Jesus don't like killing no matter what the reason's for."
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Old 13th December 2020, 12:55 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
This thread is about Trump, choosing this time to suddenly pursue a bunch of executions. One needn't have a position for or against the death penalty to want to discuss why now, why this, in the middle of much more important events. Not everything must skew immediately to a discussion of "I like it!" or "I hate it!" to the eclipsing of all else.

I'm neither for nor against tapdancing, but were Trump to suddenly call press conferences and tapdance for eight hours at a time every day on the White House portico you can bet people would want to discuss that, and it wouldn't necessarily require every participant to be either for or against tapdance in general.
For.
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Old 13th December 2020, 01:16 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The Bible calls for a lot of stuff including stuff that contradicts almost all the other stuff.
Ain't that the truth.

So which is it? An eye for an eye or turn the other cheek?
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Old 13th December 2020, 01:27 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Somehow you guys always forget about "preventing that happening again" part. I guess it is easy to forget arguments that are harder to defeat.

Sometimes it is just about physical elimination of someone that, if gotten free, would do it again and again and again...

Like shooting down rabid dog. It is not dog's fault it got infected and went nuts. It will still be killed.
That is one of the few uses of the death penalty that is appropriate in my view; inmates who continue to kill behind bars or even order hits on people out in the streets.

The last meaningful arrow in the quiver for prosecutors against killers already serving life.
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Old 13th December 2020, 01:30 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Ain't that the truth.

So which is it? An eye for an eye or turn the other cheek?
The turn the other cheek thing is probably actually about preserving your dignity (for ancient Near Easterners).
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Old 13th December 2020, 02:10 PM   #51
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Okay deep breath and back in the real world people.

This ain't the comic books. Super-villains aren't breaking out of cardboard prisons every other week and continuing their dastardly schemes.

People breaking out of prison and then killing again can't be that high on actual real world things we need to worry about.

"Life Imprisonment" solves the "Keeps them from killing again." Yes I'm sure cases of it happening have occurred but seems like "Just make prisons better" is a thing we can do.

If the breakout... we can fix that.

If they kill in prison... we can fix that.
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Old 13th December 2020, 02:12 PM   #52
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I suppose a part of why Christians can be so screwed up is that the first half of the Buy Bull is all Law 'n Order and Crime 'n Punishment and incest and enslavement and rape and revenge and murder and a sociopathic Gawd who demands blood sacrifice and clamorous obeisance. Then in the second half comes along this socialistic commie hippy with talk of turning the other cheek and forgiveness and giving up your wealth and caring for the disadvantaged and quietly communing with the Heavenly Father in private.

Jeez, how do you to try to reconcile that without cognitive whiplash?

Last edited by Lurch; 13th December 2020 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 13th December 2020, 02:29 PM   #53
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@JoeMorgue

I'm just suggesting a rational basis for the death penalty to minimize it as much as possible. As you say, it isn't that high on actual real world things to worry about. And it's much easier to collect evidence of murder in prison.
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Old 13th December 2020, 03:24 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
The turn the other cheek thing is probably actually about preserving your dignity (for ancient Near Easterners).
Probably? That's what I love ( ) about interpreting the Bible. There are as many ways to interpret it as flavors of jelly beans.
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Old 13th December 2020, 03:38 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Horse ****.

Prior to Trump there hadn't been a Federal Execution since 2003 and the first during the lame duck period in over 130 years.

We went the entire Obama Administration and like... 3/4ths of the Bush administration without one.

I doubt Biden and Harris were just waiting on January to roll around so they could clear out Death Row. Spare me the "Stop making it about Trump" hysterics. He's literally going on a killing spree because his dick feels small because he lost an election and we're being mean by not letting him steal it back.
Federal maybe, but president, no.

Rolling Stone:
Quote:
No state executes as many people as Texas, and no American governor has put more people to death than the state’s current governor, George W. Bush, who on August 3rd will be nominated as the GOP’s presidential candidate. Bush has signed off on 135 executions since he took office in 1995, about one death every two weeks.
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Old 13th December 2020, 03:51 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Horse ****.

Prior to Trump there hadn't been a Federal Execution since 2003 and the first during the lame duck period in over 130 years.

We went the entire Obama Administration and like... 3/4ths of the Bush administration without one.

I doubt Biden and Harris were just waiting on January to roll around so they could clear out Death Row. Spare me the "Stop making it about Trump" hysterics. He's literally going on a killing spree because his dick feels small because he lost an election and we're being mean by not letting him steal it back.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Hey, if Biden and Harris want to end capital punishment then that's great. Indeed, that then does make it a massive problem that Trump is trying to kill as many people as possible. And not just with Covid.
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Old 13th December 2020, 04:37 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Quote:
Somehow you guys always forget about "preventing that happening again" part.
I await your science based justification for the supposed deterrent effect of execution.
...really?
Newflash for you: executed people cannot murder (or do anything for that matter) anymore. This is what I referred to and no one else (even angrysoba) had problem with understanding what I meant.
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Old 14th December 2020, 06:20 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Nope...
By the way, you forgot to answer my question:

Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Somehow you guys always forget about "preventing that happening again" part. I guess it is easy to forget arguments that are harder to defeat.
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Who are "you guys"?
Are "you guys" people against the death penalty? That sounds weird indeed given that you claim to be one of "you guys" and there you are reminding me of an argument about how the point of the death penalty is to put people down like rabid dogs.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 14th December 2020, 07:23 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
I suppose a part of why Christians can be so screwed up is that the first half of the Buy Bull is all Law 'n Order and Crime 'n Punishment and incest and enslavement and rape and revenge and murder and a sociopathic Gawd who demands blood sacrifice and clamorous obeisance. Then in the second half comes along this socialistic commie hippy with talk of turning the other cheek and forgiveness and giving up your wealth and caring for the disadvantaged and quietly communing with the Heavenly Father in private.

Jeez, how do you to try to reconcile that without cognitive whiplash?

Some versions of Gnosticism decided that the Old Testament God and the New Testament God were two different beings. They were branded as heretics, needless to say.
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Old 14th December 2020, 07:33 AM   #60
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For all the handwringing people do over "How can they reconcile these two obviously contradictory statements..." the answer is always the same.

By just not worrying about it and enjoying winning two completely different victories in two completely different circumstances.
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Old 14th December 2020, 07:47 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Some versions of Gnosticism decided that the Old Testament God and the New Testament God were two different beings. They were branded as heretics, needless to say.
Old Testament God demanded too much money. "What are you going to do, replace me?" he said. Then they did, with another actor, who they were able to pay much less because they only used him for voiceover work. They got another actor to play his son, and that guy worked super cheaply because he wasn't even an actor, just a carpenter's apprentice. And they killed him off early on then used flashbacks of already-filmed stuff after that. Then the series became "an expanded universe" with saints and such being in a single episode each, but the series ran for centuries. It won a lot of awards at the time, but subsequent viewings really show its age and lack of imagination. People's moms get the DVD set as gifts but really nobody watches it anymore.

The sexy anime reboot version is worth a look, though.
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Old 14th December 2020, 08:53 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Are "you guys" people against the death penalty?
People against death penalty.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
That sounds weird indeed given that you claim to be one of "you guys"
I don't feel any affinity for your group, since my opposition of death penalty is of practical concern, not outright moral rejection.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The sexy anime reboot version is worth a look, though.
Are you talking about this?
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Old 14th December 2020, 08:58 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
While simultaneously claiming to be Christians!
Since their religion is based on capital punishment, why is this a problem?
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Old 14th December 2020, 09:39 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Are you talking about this?
No, I was thinking of Mega Star Princess Megumi-Chan Crystal Goddess vs Bible. It's a bit of a loose interpretation, as I don't believe traditional sources ever characterized Christ as a "Deathlord Robot King" or gave him an army of vampires, but I feel it's true to the essential message of Christianity. But I fear we may be straying slightly from the topic.
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Old 14th December 2020, 04:37 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Perhaps the moderators would be so kind as to split this thread? One could be about the OP which was



and the other could be the same old "death penalty bad!" vs "death penalty good!". That one could be placed in "Religion and Philosophy", where it belongs, and there people could mouth the same old old old old old old old old old old tired arguments they've always done whenever a thread mentions executions.
Has Trump given any reason or justification for his decision regarding bringing these executions forward?
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Old 14th December 2020, 05:09 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Has Trump given any reason or justification for his decision regarding bringing these executions forward?
Does he need one other than "Because I want to and I'm King...er POTUS"?
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Old 14th December 2020, 05:11 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Does he need one other than "Because I want to and I'm King...er POTUS"?
In the real world, I would have thought he would.

I realise that this is still Trumerica, but surely a president needs to justify such actions?
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Old 14th December 2020, 05:16 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
I don't feel any affinity for your group, since my opposition of death penalty is of practical concern, not outright moral rejection.
No, your opposition is also a moral rejection. You think it is immoral to execute the wrong person. You don't oppose prisons on the basis that it is possible to send the wrong person to prison. Or fines on the basis that it is wrong to fine innocent people, and yet this is obviously a possibility.

So why oppose the death penalty on the basis that you might accidentally execute the wrong person? Answer, because you think there is something morally wrong with killing an innocent person. In other words, a moral rejection. There are people who bite the bullet on this one and say, sure, we sometimes get the wrong person but it is worth it to put down the guilty like the rabid dogs that they are.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 14th December 2020, 05:18 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Has Trump given any reason or justification for his decision regarding bringing these executions forward?
I think it is probably his middle finger to the notion that presidents go out while dishing out pardons to people in prison for minor offences. I think Obama pardoned a bunch of people who were on drug offences, so Trump, in a fit of spite decides he will pardon his co-conspirators, and then execute a bunch of people on death row.
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 14th December 2020, 05:30 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Has Trump given any reason or justification for his decision regarding bringing these executions forward?
TDS - Tiny dick syndrome
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Old 14th December 2020, 05:37 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
TDS - Tiny dick syndrome
LOL!
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 14th December 2020, 06:36 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No, your opposition is also a moral rejection. You think it is immoral to execute the wrong person.
As far I am concerned, there is pretty big difference between "execution of people is bad, period" and "execution of innocent people is bad", even if in practice end result is same.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
So why oppose the death penalty on the basis that you might accidentally execute the wrong person?
Main reason in my case is irreversibility of execution.

Note that for example jailing someone innocent for 20 years is quite bad too - destroying significant portion of his life.
But it is in principle reversible, at least to certain degree - you can free him and give him money as quite crappy substitute for those all wasted years. If he is dead, you cannot do even that.
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Old 14th December 2020, 06:52 PM   #73
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From the ABC link:

Quote:
As Donald Trumpís presidency winds down, his administration is ratcheting up the pace of federal executions despite a surge of coronavirus cases in prisons, announcing plans for five starting Thursday and concluding just days before the Jan. 20 inauguration of President-elect Joe Biden.
I'm baffled about why they put that in the lede ... is it somehow bad form to execute someone during an epidemic?
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Old 14th December 2020, 08:03 PM   #74
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I know this case went through many court without reprieve but who actually sets the dates for Fed executions? What department? Or is it by a fed judge after all appeals are done?

I also find it weird that the Feds get involved just because the last part of the crime was on their property- but no relations to anything distinctly Federal about it (except the location).
Does that mean if you steal a car in a Post Office parking lot, you get the Feds? Or is it just capital crimes?
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Old 14th December 2020, 08:21 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
As far I am concerned, there is pretty big difference between "execution of people is bad, period" and "execution of innocent people is bad", even if in practice end result is same.



Main reason in my case is irreversibility of execution.

Note that for example jailing someone innocent for 20 years is quite bad too - destroying significant portion of his life.
But it is in principle reversible, at least to certain degree - you can free him and give him money as quite crappy substitute for those all wasted years. If he is dead, you cannot do even that.
Sure. But these are moral considerations. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is a moral issue after all.
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Old 15th December 2020, 01:33 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think it is probably his middle finger to the notion that presidents go out while dishing out pardons to people in prison for minor offences. I think Obama pardoned a bunch of people who were on drug offences, so Trump, in a fit of spite decides he will pardon his co-conspirators, and then execute a bunch of people on death row.
Sorry - thatís just so ****** up itís barely fathomable for me, and probably the most disgusting thing Iíve ever had to contemplate.

I mean our politicians treat the general public with utter disdain, but that is just beyond sociopathic.
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Old 15th December 2020, 01:45 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
From the ABC link:

I'm baffled about why they put that in the lede ... is it somehow bad form to execute someone during an epidemic?

I suppose it requires certain groups of people to meet in person more frequently than they would otherwise.
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Old 15th December 2020, 01:55 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Sorry - thatís just so ****** up itís barely fathomable for me, and probably the most disgusting thing Iíve ever had to contemplate.

I mean our politicians treat the general public with utter disdain, but that is just beyond sociopathic.
Yep. Well, it seems ex-presidents pardon, or commute the sentences of hundreds, if not thousands (in the case of Obama or LBJ) of people, and they tend to be for a variety of crimes.

Trump has done the same for 45, so far, and many of them look either to be connected to him, or to his "ideology" to the extent such a grand term can be given to the buzzing blooming self-centred confusion of his mind. There's still time for him to do more of course, but if you look at some of those listed on Wikipedia there seems to be a pattern:

Quote:
Joe Arpaio, former Sheriff of Maricopa County, Arizona, was convicted of contempt of court for refusing to end the practice of "immigrant round ups," and was awaiting sentencing. Pardoned on August 25, 2017.[41]
Sholom Rubashkin, an Iowa meatpacking magnate sentenced to 27 years in prison for bank fraud in 2010. Commuted on December 20, 2017.[42]
Kristian Saucier, a former U.S. Navy sailor pleaded guilty to unauthorized possession and retention of national defense information in 2016, released the following year. Pardoned on March 9, 2018.[43]
Lewis "Scooter" Libby, former chief of staff to the vice president of the United States, convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice in connection with the CIA leak scandal. The sentence was already commuted to time served by President George W. Bush in July 2007, shortly after Libby's conviction. Pardoned on April 13, 2018.[32][44][45]
Jack Johnson, a champion boxer who was convicted in 1913 while traveling with his white girlfriend for violating the Mann Act, which made it illegal to transport women across state lines for "immoral" purposes, released after one year. Posthumously pardoned on May 24, 2018.[46][47][48][49]
Dinesh D'Souza, author and documentary filmmaker, convicted of campaign finance violations in 2014. Pardoned on May 31, 2018.[50][51][52]
Alice Johnson, an unemployed parcel delivery worker and first-time drug offender sentenced to life without parole in 1996 for conspiracy to possess cocaine, attempted possession of cocaine, and money laundering. Commuted on June 6, 2018.[53][54][55][56][57]
Dwight Hammond and Steven Hammond, father and son Oregon ranchers convicted in 2012 of two counts of arson on federal land. Commuted and pardoned on July 10, 2018.[58][59][60][61][62]
Michael Behenna, former United States Army First Lieutenant who was convicted in 2009 of murdering an unarmed prisoner during the Iraq War. Sentenced to 25 years in military prison, paroled in 2014. Pardoned on May 7, 2019.[63]
Conrad Black, a British newspaper publisher convicted in 2007 of fraud and obstruction of justice for scheming to siphon off millions of dollars from the sale of newspapers, spent ​3 1⁄2 years in prison and was deported. Pardoned on May 15, 2019.[64]
Pat Nolan, former California state legislator who pleaded guilty to racketeering in 1994, served 2 years and 2 months in prison. Pardoned on May 16, 2019.[65]
Zay Jeffries, a mining engineer and former Vice President of General Electric. He was convicted in 1948 of violating of the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890 and fined; died in 1965. Posthumously pardoned by Trump on October 10, 2019.[66]
Mathew L. Golsteyn, a US Army officer who served in the War in Afghanistan. He was accused of murder after the 2010 killing of an unarmed Afghan bomb maker who was a prisoner of war, and the U.S. Army had opened an investigation of him in 2016. Pardoned on November 15, 2019.[67]
Clint Lorance, a former first lieutenant with the 4th Brigade Combat Team, 82nd Airborne Division in the U.S. Army and veteran of the War in Afghanistan. He was convicted on two counts of second-degree murder for ordering soldiers in his platoon to open fire at three men sitting on a motorcycle in southern Afghanistan in July 2012 while his platoon was on combat patrol. During the trial all platoon members testified that the men were sitting, unmoving on a motorcycle while the defendant claimed the motorcycle was approaching at a high rate of speed. He was sentenced to 19 years in prison in August 2013, and sent to Fort Leavenworth. Pardoned on November 15, 2019.[68]
Rod Blagojevich, former Governor of Illinois, was charged with attempting to sell an appointment to the U.S. Senate to succeed President-elect Barack Obama. Was convicted of soliciting bribes, extortion, and wire fraud on June 27, 2011, and sentenced to 14 years in prison. Was commuted to time served on February 18, 2020.[69]
Bernard Kerik, former New York City Police Commissioner, pleaded guilty to tax fraud and perjury in 2010 for concealing apartment renovations paid for by a contractor that the city had blacklisted because of suspected ties to organized crime. Was sentenced to four years in prison in 2010; was released in May 2013. Pardoned on February 18, 2020.[69]
Roger Stone, a longtime political operative and friend of Donald Trump, was convicted in November 2019 on charges of witness tampering, obstructing an official proceeding, and five counts of making false statements in the course of inhibiting the investigation of the Trump campaign by Robert Mueller. He was sentenced to 40 months in prison, but on July 10, 2020, President Trump commuted the sentence before Stone reported to prison.[70]
Susan B. Anthony, suffragist and long-time proponent and organizer for women's suffrage in the United States who was convicted of voting in the 1872 election. Posthumously pardoned on August 18, 2020, the 100th anniversary of the ratification of the 19th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States which gave American women the right to vote.[71][72] The president of the National Susan B. Anthony Museum and House wrote to "decline" the offer of a pardon on the principle that, to accept a pardon would wrongly "validate" the trial proceedings in the same manner that paying the $100 fine would have.[73][74]
Michael Flynn, retired United States Army lieutenant general and the 25th National Security Advisor. Flynn withdrew his original guilty plea for making false statements to the FBI, and federal district judge Emmet G. Sullivan had ruled the matter to be placed on hold. Flynn was pardoned on November 25, 2020.[75]
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 15th December 2020, 07:19 AM   #79
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//Only semi-related but not worthy of its own thread//

Japan, the only other nation really comparable that still practices the Death Penalty, sentenced a 30 year old man to death for the murders of 9 people yesterday.
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Old 15th December 2020, 09:44 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
//Only semi-related but not worthy of its own thread//

Japan, the only other nation really comparable that still practices the Death Penalty, sentenced a 30 year old man to death for the murders of 9 people yesterday.

Actually that one was kind of like noir fiction! Or Dostoyevsky, or something. (I suppose all crime is, though, at one level, even the most sordid ones.)
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