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Tags death penalty , death penalty issues , donald trump , executions , Trump controversies

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Old 5th January 2021, 01:50 AM   #121
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Going by the joy many people seem to get from witnessing judicial murders in USA, I'm not sure you're right.
Only 54% of Americans find the death penalty acceptable. It's obviously still too high, but the number has apparently dropped from 71% in 2006, which is a big drop. It also means that Trump may have been the last chance for federal murder fetishists to get their rocks off.

Last edited by Babbylonian; 5th January 2021 at 01:51 AM.
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Old 5th January 2021, 03:48 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Going by the joy many people seem to get from witnessing judicial murders in USA, I'm not sure you're right.
Add in the proviso that if the executed person turns out to be innocent, the person pressing the button is also executed?
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Old 5th January 2021, 01:37 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by SteveAitch View Post
Add in the proviso that if the executed person turns out to be innocent, the person pressing the button is also executed?
I'd be more in favour of the prosecution team and judge copping a bullet than the executioner, who's only doing their job.
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Old 5th January 2021, 04:13 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by SteveAitch View Post
Add in the proviso that if the executed person turns out to be innocent, the person pressing the button is also executed?
Well, in fifteenth century [what we now know as] Germany, the executioner himself was a convicted murderer because being an executioner was not considered respectable. They were shunned by society and lived on the outskirts. Nobody wanted the job. So they had to force people and who better than someone who already showed a mean streak and had previous experience?

These days presumably it is a medic who administers the lethal drugs. I would have thought that was against the Hippocratic Oath.
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Old 5th January 2021, 04:14 PM   #125
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Maybe it would be Trump's greatest honour to perform the deed before he goes.
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Old 5th January 2021, 05:59 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Well, in fifteenth century [what we now know as] Germany, the executioner himself was a convicted murderer because being an executioner was not considered respectable. They were shunned by society and lived on the outskirts. Nobody wanted the job. So they had to force people and who better than someone who already showed a mean streak and had previous experience?

These days presumably it is a medic who administers the lethal drugs. I would have thought that was against the Hippocratic Oath.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Maybe it would be Trump's greatest honour to perform the deed before he goes.

He's half German and a murderer so that would work.
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Old 5th January 2021, 06:04 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Well, in fifteenth century [what we now know as] Germany, the executioner himself was a convicted murderer because being an executioner was not considered respectable. They were shunned by society and lived on the outskirts. Nobody wanted the job. So they had to force people and who better than someone who already showed a mean streak and had previous experience?

These days presumably it is a medic who administers the lethal drugs. I would have thought that was against the Hippocratic Oath.
That subject comes up a lot.

To the best of my knowledge, only doctors swear to the Hippocratic Oath, and no doctor actually does anything related to the execution except verify that the victim is dead, and stands by in case the execution is called off or some other event occurs where the victim requires medical assistance. The doctor takes no active part in the execution itself.

I'm not sure who puts in the IV. i.e. Is it a medical technician? Or is it just a prison staffer whose only medical training is in how to insert an IV? I know that it is not a medic of any sort who turns on the poison to kill the target of the execution.
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Old 6th January 2021, 12:29 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Well, in fifteenth century [what we now know as] Germany, the executioner himself was a convicted murderer because being an executioner was not considered respectable. They were shunned by society and lived on the outskirts. Nobody wanted the job. So they had to force people and who better than someone who already showed a mean streak and had previous experience?
Cite?
Most were civil servants and paid, others were dragooned into it.
There is this;
In17th century Sweden there was a practice of offering the job to a person on death row in lieu of their own execution. But again, most were appointed by the monarch or career executioners.
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Old 12th January 2021, 01:09 AM   #129
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I was just getting a candle out to light for Lisa Montgomery so I could blow out the flame at the time of her execution, but I see she's been given an 11.9th hour stay!

A federal judge has stayed the execution and ordered a competency hearing: https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/12/u...yed/index.html

The prosecution is appealing, but I don't see any way that's going to matter, because Biden will be president and the executions will cease.

I'm going to pop a champagne cork instead now. When I sober up I'll send Judge James Hanlon an email congratulating him on his excellent decision.
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Old 12th January 2021, 02:28 AM   #130
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There's a long piece on BBC News about this lady.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55587260

Her crime was obviously heinous and particularly horrible so I can see why supporters of the death penalty might be keen to see it applied to her, but also her background and childhood sounds like it was absolutely ghastly as well.
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Old 12th January 2021, 03:12 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
There's a long piece on BBC News about this lady.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55587260

Her crime was obviously heinous and particularly horrible so I can see why supporters of the death penalty might be keen to see it applied to her, but also her background and childhood sounds like it was absolutely ghastly as well.
Executing this woman will not deter others from similar crimes.
The dodgy human race may prefer to explore this obviously anomalous behaviour by talking to her and her influencers.
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Old 12th January 2021, 01:08 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
... but also her background and childhood sounds like it was absolutely ghastly as well.
"Ghastly" hardly begins to cover it - I genuinely don't believe there's a word or phrase in English that adequately describes her childhood.

I find quite absurd that drone operators are routinely diagnosed with PTSD - and the mental illness has been used as defence for many a soldier facing murder charges - but Lisa Montgomery was competent to be found guilty of murder and due to be executed, despite having received infinitely more damage than a drone operator (or soldier, for that matter) ever would.
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Old 12th January 2021, 01:14 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Well, in fifteenth century [what we now know as] Germany, the executioner himself was a convicted murderer because being an executioner was not considered respectable. They were shunned by society and lived on the outskirts. Nobody wanted the job. So they had to force people and who better than someone who already showed a mean streak and had previous experience?

These days presumably it is a medic who administers the lethal drugs. I would have thought that was against the Hippocratic Oath.
That is why it isn't a medical professional doing the administering one of the several problems with lethal injection. That pharmaceutical companies refuse to sell them the drugs is also a problem.

Hence the drive to more firing squads instead of lethal injection.
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Old 12th January 2021, 01:16 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
It also became a family business in some cases

"For over 200 years the Grossholtz or Grosholtz family worked as executioners in France and Germany. Often the children would follow in the father's footsteps. This is how the family dynasty came about. As far as I can tell the family lived in the village of Landser where the first executioner resided."

http://memorykeepernotes.blogspot.co...ecutioner.html
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Old 12th January 2021, 02:34 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It also became a family business in some cases

"For over 200 years the Grossholtz or Grosholtz family worked as executioners in France and Germany. Often the children would follow in the father's footsteps. This is how the family dynasty came about. As far as I can tell the family lived in the village of Landser where the first executioner resided."

http://memorykeepernotes.blogspot.co...ecutioner.html
I had to research this topic for an historical novel I was writing and much of it was quite new to me. The key book on Amazon (I've only read extracts} is this one:

The Executioner's Journal: Meister Frantz Schmidt of the Imperial City of Nuremberg (Studies in Early Modern German History) Diary – 30 Jun. 2016

And of course, there is also modern hangman Pierrepoint, which I have never read.

Looking at Montgomery purely objectively from a cold legal POV, the issue of her capability and mental illness, should have been brought up at the trial, that is the correct time. Also, since a very large percentage of society's worst criminals have had appalling childhoods (for example, the Bulgar killers, one of whom came from a home of neglect and incest) I am not sure how Montgomery having had a hard life is mitigating. I accept that persons suffering from , say paranoid schizophrenia, are not in control of their thoughts and behaviour yet, some of the worst crimes are committed by such people (for example, the killer of seven-year-old Emily Pierce [_sp?] who got a reduced charge of manslaughter, when she herself failed to take her medication and actually bought a knife in advance. It all seemed very calculated.

Having said that, I don't believe in the death penalty, except for the most egregious of crimes (for example, treason in a war). The other thing I object to is the fact the baby Montgomery tore out of an innocent young woman and stole is now sixteen years old. This indicates Montgomery has been in custody all of those years, which is more than the standard life sentence in Europe. (Anders Brevik got a maximum of twelve years, for example, although he the right to apply for parole and Norway just has to keep turning him down.)

So having already served 'life' it is just double punishment to also execute her, in addition.

Plus we know Trump is motivated by pure cruelty, which is not what justice should be about.
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Old 12th January 2021, 07:55 PM   #136
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The only question wa should ask is if the execution is warranted by the individual facts of each case.
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Old 12th January 2021, 11:53 PM   #137
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From her attorney: “The craven bloodlust of a failed administration was on full display tonight.”

After a 6-3 SCOTUS decision not to grant a stay. So all those pieces of **** anti-abortion SCOTUS justices don't think God minds if we kill adults.

******* hypocrites.
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Old 12th January 2021, 11:55 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
The only question wa should ask is if the execution is warranted by the individual facts of each case.
We are the only Western country that still execute prisoners.

What is wrong with life without parole? It's even cheaper than an execution.
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Old 13th January 2021, 02:26 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
From her attorney: “The craven bloodlust of a failed administration was on full display tonight.”

After a 6-3 SCOTUS decision not to grant a stay. So all those pieces of **** anti-abortion SCOTUS justices don't think God minds if we kill adults.

******* hypocrites.
Ain't that the truth.
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Old 13th January 2021, 02:48 AM   #140
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Trump's Executions Drive

This really brings shame on America.

Quote:
Montgomery is the first female federal inmate to be put to death by the US government in 67 years.

According to witnesses, a woman standing next to Montgomery during the execution process, removed the inmate's face mask and asked her if she had any last words. Montgomery responded "no", and said nothing else.

She was pronounced dead at 01:31 (06:31 GMT). Montgomery's lawyer, Kelley Henry, said that everyone who had participated in the execution "should feel shame".
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55642177

It seems to be zipcode lottery depending on where you live.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited commentary which sparked a derail into life after death and NDEs. Feel free to open a thread in an appropriate subforum or add to an existing one) for further discussion of these subjects.
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Old 13th January 2021, 09:47 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
From her attorney: “The craven bloodlust of a failed administration was on full display tonight.”
And clearly so, when the appeal took place in record time after the fist judge issued a stay for competency proceedings.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
After a 6-3 SCOTUS decision not to grant a stay. So all those pieces of **** anti-abortion SCOTUS justices don't think God minds if we kill adults.

******* hypocrites.
I guess they were keen to show Donny how much they love him, and nothing says "I love you" like murdering a woman.

There's no irony in soldiers claiming PTSD as an excuse for their crimes while a woman whose like has been infinitely more damaging than theirs is not.

Sickening.
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Old 14th January 2021, 06:10 AM   #142
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Mod WarningFeel free to begin a thread about the phenomenon known as Near Death Experience (or add to an existing thread) in the appropriate subforum. This thread is not suitable for that topic.
Posted By:Agatha
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Old 15th January 2021, 12:49 AM   #143
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Yeah, a real execution party going on as the Supreme Court again beats all timing records to fry an intellectually disabled man, Corey Johnson.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump...b6df63a9152d65
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Old 15th January 2021, 04:08 PM   #144
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Another article trying to understand why it’s happening.
https://www.propublica.org/article/i...-killing-spree
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Old 16th January 2021, 12:12 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yeah, a real execution party going on as the Supreme Court again beats all timing records to fry an intellectually disabled man, Corey Johnson.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump...b6df63a9152d65
This is the first time I've heard of Corey Johnson. Apparently executing men isn't that big a deal, even when they are disabled.
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Old 16th January 2021, 02:23 AM   #146
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So now Trump's bloodlust continues. Yes, these are criminals who have committed horrendous, senseless crimes.

Quote:
The federal execution of convicted murderer Dustin John Higgs has been carried out, marking the final death sentence to be completed by the Department of Justice under President Donald Trump.

Higgs, 48, was pronounced dead at 1.23am on Saturday after receiving a lethal injection of pentobarbital in the federal death chamber at the U.S. Penitentiary in Terre Haute, Indiana.

Higgs conspired with two other men to kidnap and murder three young women in Washington DC on one night in January 1996.
The crime was committed in 1996 and he was now 48 so he was 24 at the time and has spent a large part of the intervening years in prison.

He claims he is innocent of conspiring to murder:

Quote:
His lawyers have argued it is 'arbitrary and inequitable' to execute Higgs while Willis Haynes, the man who pulled the trigger in the murders, was spared a death sentence. In his final words, Higgs protested that he was innocent of masterminding the murders.

'I'd like to say I am an innocent man,' he said, strapped to the gurney in the execution chamber. 'I did not order the murders.'

As the injection was administered, loud sobs of a woman crying inconsolably echoed for several minutes from a room reserved for Higgs' family, as his eyes rolled back in his head, showing the whites of his eyes before he stopped moving entirely.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...umps-term.html

It is appalling that an impeached incumbent President should still have the power to ride roughshod over today's standards. Totally ruthless.
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Old 16th January 2021, 03:01 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Another article trying to understand why it’s happening.
https://www.propublica.org/article/i...-killing-spree
Hmmm:

Quote:
“President Trump ensured total justice for the victims of an evil killer,” the campaign told supporters. “With the Trump administration slated to administer total justice to three more child murderers and rapists in the coming weeks, Biden should explain why they should be protected from paying the ultimate price for their evil, horrific crimes.”
Only four more days to go and I think Higgs will have the ignominy of the being the last man executed in the USA.
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Old 16th January 2021, 03:07 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Only four more days to go and I think Higgs will have the ignominy of the being the last man executed in the USA.
Seems unlikely.

Oscar Franklin Smith is scheduled to be executed in 19 days.
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Old 16th January 2021, 03:33 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hmmm:



Only four more days to go and I think Higgs will have the ignominy of the being the last man executed in the USA.
Trump would celebrate his own execution if only eyes could see.
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Old 16th January 2021, 04:00 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hmmm:



Only four more days to go and I think Higgs will have the ignominy of the being the last man executed in the USA.
Very unlikely, since several states are still using the death penalty. He could be the last person executed by the federal USA rather than an individual state (but I wouldn't put money on it).
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Old 16th January 2021, 08:58 AM   #151
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In the article Trump says he wanted to aim for the killers of the weak and vulnerable, people who killed little children and raped women (You could say he himself has targetted the weak and vulnerable, prisoners already incarcerated for endless years, going through excruciating appeals one after another, hope against hope.) It strikes me as anomalous that the two recent guys put to death didn't actually pull the trigger themselves - although that is no excuse for their participation in what they knew was wrong and illegal - whilst a monster like Frederick Baer in Indiana gets his heinous murder and rape of a mother and her young daughter conviction commuted to two life sentences. In his case, he planned and calculated the crime, knocking on the woman's door and asking for water, rather than in the heat of the moment. Well, good for him dying in prison with his various cats. It shouldn't vary from state to state IMV.
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Old 17th January 2021, 11:09 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It also became a family business in some cases

"For over 200 years the Grossholtz or Grosholtz family worked as executioners in France and Germany. Often the children would follow in the father's footsteps. This is how the family dynasty came about. As far as I can tell the family lived in the village of Landser where the first executioner resided."

http://memorykeepernotes.blogspot.co...ecutioner.html
In France the Sanson family served the kings for generations, and continued work after the Revolution.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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