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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 23rd December 2020, 10:59 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I know for my part my son's best friend in school was trans. I also know Emily's Cat has a trans niece (previously nephew). A good friend of mine recently came out as trans, although I haven't seen them in person(to use their newly preferred pronoun) since the beginning of the pandemic.

The idea that we are somehow unfamiliar with trans people and thus wallowing in ignorance is just nonsense.
And have you interacted with any of these people on a regular basis? Do you use their preferred pronouns or do you use your preferred pronouns for them?

When you think of them, do you think of them as their preferred gender or the gender you prefer for them?
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:04 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Manhood and womanhood are cultural ideas. We can know this because the idea of what makes a good/strong man or a good/strong woman varies from culture to culture and from time to time. In our own culture, traditionally, gay men were not considered "real men", were they? And, yet, that has changed as the culture changed.

Do you agree or do you believe that there is something inherently intrinsic to what makes a "good man" or a "good woman"?
What word do you use to describe a member of homo sapiens that has the larger-in-size, fewer-in-number gametes (as opposed to the smaller-in size, larger-in-number gametes)?
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:06 AM   #363
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I love it when someone jumps into a lengthy discussion without getting up to speed, misses the point entirely, begs the central question, and condescends to anyone who doesn't a priori agree with their misunderstanding.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:07 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
On that specific note, if/when you had a younger daughter out with you and they needed to use the bathroom, did you ever find yourself in a situation where you did the 'check to see if anyone was in the ladies room' and let them go in while standing at the door? I don't think that is an uncommon scenario from my experience. Now imagine a non-transitioned man was casually attempting to go in. Would you ask what he is doing? Would the answer of, "oh I am a woman" be sufficient to alleviate any concern? Would you follow in just to hurry her up or check in from the door?
I have brought my daughter into the men's room to do her business. I have taken both my son and daughter into the women's room because that was often the only bathroom to have a changing table. In the latter case, if it was a multi-person bathroom, I would knock and ask permission if anyone was in there as a courtesy.

When they grew old enough, I would let them go in by themselves, but often wait at the door because the doors would be too heavy to open by themselves.

Does that answer your question?

Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
If such a situation would cause a bit of anxiousness or concern on my/your part, I think it's obvious we should take seriously the feelings of women that this would impact most. While the bathroom/locker room situations can take a larger portion of conversation in these discussions, I don't see why that should minimize it entirely.
Again, I have shared a bathroom with trans-men. The issue of what are in other people's pants just doesn't come up like you seem to be implying. What are you doing in public bathrooms that is so different?
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:08 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
Sports and jail keep coming up, though, as well as medical settings. These are areas where it is much more likely to matter, and instead of trying to work out a compromise, everyone just gets upset. This makes everything worse. The general dialogue becomes unsalvageable.
Why are you letting other people determine what you consider is the right attitude for you?

Again there is no way of reconciling the extremists, trying to do so is futile as their views exclude each otherís view by definition. Therefore all one can do is come up with sensible options that the vast majority can agree to.

I see a lot of people apparently wanting everyone to know that they donít agree with the extremists, as if that is something remarkable or noteworthy. Of course most people donít agree with the extremists because most people arenít extremist, and that is true about anything in society when different wants compete.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:12 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Manhood and womanhood are cultural ideas. We can know this because the idea of what makes a good/strong man or a good/strong woman varies from culture to culture and from time to time.
The statement wasn't about being a good man or woman, but about being a man or woman at all. A bad man can still be a man.

Quote:
In our own culture, traditionally, gay men were not considered "real men", were they?
"Real" being in effect a substitute for "good", no. But in the sense that they were men and not women, yes, they were considered men. Bad men, perhaps, but nobody was actually confused about whether they were men.

Quote:
Do you agree or do you believe that there is something inherently intrinsic to what makes a "good man" or a "good woman"?
Again, we aren't talking about what makes a good man or a good woman, but what a man or woman, good or bad, even is to begin with. You can't be a good or bad man if you're not a man, you can't be a good or bad woman if you aren't a woman.

So what even is a woman? You didn't actually try to answer that question.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:14 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I think it may help to stick to the specifics of the situation. For example, for jails we don't need to figure out "are trans women real women?" we need to figure out whether and when there is a problem sharing cell space and addressing the medical needs, and what to do about it.
This is a good point.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:15 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
Feelings don't enter into a discussion about factual reality. We'll see which of us sounds like an idiot in a few years.
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
What word do you use to describe a member of homo sapiens that has the larger-in-size, fewer-in-number gametes (as opposed to the smaller-in size, larger-in-number gametes)?
You seem to be confusing scientific classification with everyday social interactions and norms. If you believe cultural norms are based on scientific knowledge and understanding, I have a bridge built by 400 years of chattel slavery to sell you.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:16 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Woman is a category. Trans-woman is a sub-category of woman. Cis-woman is a sub-category of woman.

Are trans-women really women? Yes.
Are cis-women really women? Yes.
Are trans-women really cis-women? No.
Are cis-women really trans-women? No.

What's the problem?
I think the problem is a lot of people think those points need tweaking.

Are trans-women really women? No
Do trans-women wish they were born women? Yes.
Should we respect trans-women and just kind of go with the flow and call them what they think they should be and stuff any way? Yes. Within reason and provided they aren't jerks.
Are cis-women really women? Yes.
Are trans-women really cis-women? No.
Are cis-women really trans-women? No.
Is there any actual point to the prefix cis, when cis-wome are just women? No.
So is cis just used to make trans-women feel more comfortable when there is no point in adding it? Yes.
Why do trans-women need that comfort? No idea, but tend to think that might be part of a deeper issue.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:17 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I was asking what your statement lead you to.
You will need to be more specific. Are you interested in the consequence to me of me simply hearing things multiple times? Are you interested in whether those things are true? Are you interested in the consequences of those things being accepted or rejected as true? Or something else entirely? Your question is still too vague.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:21 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Does that answer your question?

Again, I have shared a bathroom with trans-men. The issue of what are in other people's pants just doesn't come up like you seem to be implying. What are you doing in public bathrooms that is so different?

Actually, it seems to purposely avoid what was the most obvious and specific portion of the question. Which I believe you are aware of, no? Also adding in that you have shared bathrooms with trans-men seems a little tone deaf to the point that the discussion I am trying to have involved what WOMEN feel about the situation since it impacts them.

The only conversation that involves transgenders in the men's bathroom/locker room has always been centered around the danger to the transgenders. I actually seem to remember that was the starting point of the push for choice in regards to bathrooms/locker rooms for transgenders. Not for their mental health but for their physical safety. Maybe someone who has followed this push over the years could correct me.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:22 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So what even is a woman? You didn't actually try to answer that question.
It was the first sentence of mine you quoted and elaborated on by the rest of the post. What you're misunderstanding is that "a good man" and "a real man" are culturally and historically synonymous.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:24 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I have taken both my son and daughter into the women's room because that was often the only bathroom to have a changing table. In the latter case, if it was a multi-person bathroom, I would knock and ask permission if anyone was in there as a courtesy.
Why would you bother knocking? Why would you seek their permission? Why is doing so a courtesy?

Quote:
Again, I have shared a bathroom with trans-men.
None of this bathroom controversy is about trans-men. It's about trans-women. And there is also a difference between people you know and strangers.

Quote:
The issue of what are in other people's pants just doesn't come up like you seem to be implying.
It came up when you knocked, didn't it?
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:26 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think the problem is a lot of people think those points need tweaking.

Are trans-women really women? No
Do trans-women wish they were born women? Yes.
Should we respect trans-women and just kind of go with the flow and call them what they think they should be and stuff any way? Yes. Within reason and provided they aren't jerks.
Are cis-women really women? Yes.
Are trans-women really cis-women? No.
Are cis-women really trans-women? No.
Is there any actual point to the prefix cis, when cis-wome are just women? No.
So is cis just used to make trans-women feel more comfortable when there is no point in adding it? Yes.
Why do trans-women need that comfort? No idea, but tend to think that might be part of a deeper issue.
This is merely another step in the evolving cultural understanding of people. Remember when being gay was considered a mental disease? Or when interracial relationships were unnatural?

You're taking a position that will eventually become extinct and the cultural norms change to become more reflective up people rather than forcing people to confirm with the then current cultural norms.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:28 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
It was the first sentence of mine you quoted and elaborated on by the rest of the post. What you're misunderstanding is that "a good man" and "a real man" are culturally and historically synonymous.
No, Upchurch. I'm not misunderstanding that, I said it explicitly: a "real man" and a "good man" are synonymous. And neither are actually synonymous with simply "man", a category which historically and culturally includes both good men and bad men.

Which gets us no closer to understanding my what "woman" means. Not "good woman" or "real woman", but simply "woman".

What is a "woman"? You still haven't said. And that's quite curious, given how much you have said in response (but not in answer) to that very simple question.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:28 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
And have you interacted with any of these people on a regular basis? Do you use their preferred pronouns or do you use your preferred pronouns for them?

When you think of them, do you think of them as their preferred gender or the gender you prefer for them?
Those are good questions. When it came to my son's friend, when I knew her and was interacting with her on a regular basis, she was a her. By the time she came out as a he, they were in mostly in different schools, and I never saw her in person again. She showed up to eighth grade graduation in the boy uniform, which was the only time I ever saw her in person as a boy.

As you can see, I'm using "her", because that's how I knew her, but I'm pretty sure I would say "him" now. I say that she went to school with my son, but I say that he is currently attending Michigan State. I don't really think of him as either, if the truth be told. I think of him as trans. I know a little bit about where he is and what he is doing because I sometimes read his parents' blog. My son and he drifted apart, as happens when schools change.

Just to add one thing. He is definitely one where the trans-ness appeared very early. I remember driving a group of 10 year olds to a birthday party where they were discussing whether she was "really" a girl. None of those kids knew what transgender meant, and I didn't bring it up. When my son was 13 and wondered aloud if she might be gay, I said I doubted it, and then described to him what transgender meant.

In high school, he used separate facilities, which seems very wise to me. He may think about himself as a boy, but he was very much aware that getting naked around a bunch of teenage boys just wasn't a good idea.

As for my recent friend, I think of her as a woman. Maybe that will change in post-pandemic times when we are once again interacting personally. I'm not sure if she thinks of herself as a man, or as gender-neutral. She wants "they". We do martial arts events and get very sweaty sometimes, and at some events, showers are provided. From what I know of her, I don't think she'll join us in the men's showers.

There are a couple of passing acquaintances of mine that are MtoF trans, but no actual friends, so I don't have personal experience with them.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:30 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
And have you interacted with any of these people on a regular basis? Do you use their preferred pronouns or do you use your preferred pronouns for them?

When you think of them, do you think of them as their preferred gender or the gender you prefer for them?
Kind have always thought from the whole right pronoun thing, that if someone gets genuinely offended by some other random calling them the wrong personal preferred pronoun they kind of want to look at their priority levels of things that hold any importance.

I mean right blood type if you are have open heart hand pumping in an ambulance after being hit by a truck is probably up there.

Making sure someone remembered to tie the rope at the top while abseiling down a 500 meter cliff, tick

Noticing Cullenz jnr is 2 millimetres away from being torn to shreds in that wood shredder, yip

Some one callig you the wrong pronoun you decided you need to be called personally for affirmation of your personal internal gender association.....Kind of get over yourself.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:30 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Actually, it seems to purposely avoid what was the most obvious and specific portion of the question. Which I believe you are aware of, no?
I guess not. That's why I asked.

Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Also adding in that you have shared bathrooms with trans-men seems a little tone deaf to the point that the discussion I am trying to have involved what WOMEN feel about the situation since it impacts them.
How so? Are you under the impression that women can not attack and/or rape men in the bathroom? For that matter, are you under the impression that other men can not attack or rape men in the bathroom?
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:31 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You seem to be confusing scientific classification with everyday social interactions and norms. If you believe cultural norms are based on scientific knowledge and understanding, I have a bridge built by 400 years of chattel slavery to sell you.
Could you please just give a straightforward answer to a straightforward question?
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:36 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
How so? Are you under the impression that women can not attack and/or rape men in the bathroom? For that matter, are you under the impression that other men can not attack or rape men in the bathroom?
Lots of things CAN happen, but among things that can happen, they do not all actually happen with equal frequency or probability.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:38 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This is merely another step in the evolving cultural understanding of people. Remember when being gay was considered a mental disease? Or when interracial relationships were unnatural?

You're taking a position that will eventually become extinct and the cultural norms change to become more reflective up people rather than forcing people to confirm with the then current cultural norms.
Gay yes. But then it is only recently in the grand scheme of things that it wasn't just the norm'. Which is odd as it wasn't that frowned upon in older history.

Might be some puritan thing or something

Interracial marriages no.

My circles growing up never really cared about it.

Might just be a different country, different cultures thing.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:39 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
And have you interacted with any of these people on a regular basis?
An interesting question, and I think a good one. There's some value to direct experience. For example, your own:

Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I have been in a band that includes several trans men and the occasional trans woman for nearly two decades now. I've only ever known some of them in their post-transition state. I've played on the same stage with them, sometimes closely (it's a large band). I've shared bathrooms with the trans men.
Have you ever asked one of your transman bandmates what it is that makes them a man?
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:46 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I guess not. That's why I asked.


How so? Are you under the impression that women can not attack and/or rape men in the bathroom? For that matter, are you under the impression that other men can not attack or rape men in the bathroom?
This is where the tone deafness comes in. Yes, I am aware that it is theoretically possible for a woman to rape a man, and yet it is never, ever, something that I concern myself with. It's just not something that is ever on my mind. That is not the case for any woman, ever. The possibility of rape is always something that is at least in the back of her mind, and actually affects their day to day lives. To say that the both sexes are affected by the issue is technically true, but very much tone deaf.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:47 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Those are good questions. When it came to my son's friend, when I knew her and was interacting with her on a regular basis, she was a her. By the time she came out as a he, they were in mostly in different schools, and I never saw her in person again. She showed up to eighth grade graduation in the boy uniform, which was the only time I ever saw her in person as a boy. [snip]
Not to overly simplify, but that's a "no". You have not dealt with someone who in their new presentation on a regular ongoing basis.

Another personal story. My son had a classmate in grade school who transitioned to a trans girl in the second (maybe third?) grade. After stumbling on the name change for maybe a month, it was hard for me to think of her ever not being a girl. And, honestly, the transition was not a surprise for anyone who knew her in the years prior to her transition. When talking to parents of kids who joined the class after her transition, they often had no idea that she had ever not been a girl.

So, if the school community accepted her as a girl (and we all did) and she presented herself as a girl and acted as a girl, what is the actual difference between her and a "real" girl?

Yes, I presume she had a penis (I never checked), but it simply did not matter to anyone.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:51 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To say that the both sexes are affected by the issue is technically true, but very much tone deaf.
Contrary to popular opinion, I firmly believe that technically correct is the worst kind of correct.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:51 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Not to overly simplify, but that's a "no". You have not dealt with someone who in their new presentation on a regular ongoing basis.

Another personal story. My son had a classmate in grade school who transitioned to a trans girl in the second (maybe third?) grade. After stumbling on the name change for maybe a month, it was hard for me to think of her ever not being a girl. And, honestly, the transition was not a surprise for anyone who knew her in the years prior to her transition. When talking to parents of kids who joined the class after her transition, they often had no idea that she had ever not been a girl.

So, if the school community accepted her as a girl (and we all did) and she presented herself as a girl and acted as a girl, what is the actual difference between her and a "real" girl?

Yes, I presume she had a penis (I never checked), but it simply did not matter to anyone.
What is the difference between a boy who wants to present as a girl and act as a girl and a 'real' boy?
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:52 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Yes, I presume she had a penis (I never checked), but it simply did not matter to anyone.
In the third grade, it wouldn't. After puberty, it would, at least in circumstances where people saw each other naked.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:53 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I think this is exactly correct. The problem is that if people start with the assertion that trans women are really women, they feel that it trumps whatever problems might come up when sperm producers and egg producers are in close proximity under certain situations.
I could just as easily argue that if people start with the assertion that trans women are not women, they feel that it trumps the other person's concerns. Starting with a broad-stroke maxim is almost always a recipe for failure.

Here is the key: the other person does not need to agree with you on the philosophical point, in order to have the discussion. It doesn't even need to be examined.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:53 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Have you ever asked one of your transman bandmates what it is that makes them a man?
It's a gay community band. I like to joke that they let me play tuba despite my lack of qualifications. There would have been a time when you might have just as easily asked me what they think makes them "men".

No. I have not asked them what makes them men, just as no one has asked me what makes me a man. It is my preference that I be treated as a man and I extend to them the same courtesy.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:55 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
What is the difference between a boy who wants to present as a girl and act as a girl and a 'real' boy?
Social and cultural assumptions and interactions, which is what I've been saying.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 11:57 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
So I happened to be revisiting some old Jon Ronson audio and came across the Hare Psychopathy ChecklistWP as a result. This made me wonder whether there is an analogous diagnostic tool which professionals might use to determine a subject's gender identity. Anyone seen anything which fits the bill?
Unless someone has come up with one in the last couple of years, since I retired, no.

Assessment requires an awful lot of talking, then some unpicking of that, then some more talking, some more unpicking, establishing what Kid A means by this or that or the other (oddly consideration is given to someone's sexual identity as well as gender identity...). Oh, and ruling out obvious signs of any primary mental illness...And then some more talking and unpicking...Consideration of consent issues (aaaaah, UK-ian consent laws...Can you politicians actually sort them out? Properly?), what Kid A actually thinks they are consenting to, what Kid A wants. Then some more talking and unpicking...And then eventually I'd write a referral letter to the Tavistock, where it would all start again. And eventually an endocrinologist from one of the major London hospitals becomes involved and a lot of it starts again...

The idea that folk involved just start throwing out hormone blockers and accept anything that is said to them is nonsense.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 12:00 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
This is where the tone deafness comes in.
And just to be clear, there has been plenty of tone deafness in this thread.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 12:05 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I could just as easily argue that if people start with the assertion that trans women are not women, they feel that it trumps the other person's concerns. Starting with a broad-stroke maxim is almost always a recipe for failure.

Here is the key: the other person does not need to agree with you on the philosophical point, in order to have the discussion.
True. The real hard liners on the issue would talk about bathrooms and say that transwomen are not really women, so they should never be allowed in the ladies' room. Most people here, and in society in general, figure that someone wearing a dress and looking awfully darned feminine, and needing to go to the bathroom, probably ought to just go to the ladies' room and not draw attention to herself.

Most people who participate here are rather pragmatic on that point. Only one of the "regulars" disagrees, based on a slippery slope argument. To be fair, that slippery slope argument has been proven correct, so it's not an unreasonable argument.

I think on the more contentious issues, though, people get a bit more wrapped up in the philosophical.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 12:08 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Could you please just give a straightforward answer to a straightforward question?
"Human"?

It's not a straight forward question because it lacks context. If I meet someone on the street, how do I know the quantity and qualities of their gametes? I can make a guess based on physical appearance and manner of dress, perhaps I could infer information from their name. Perhaps they have a card or name tag that specifies their pronouns, in which case, I would use those out of courtesy.

What I absolutely would not do is pat down their groin or take a peek in their pants and determine how do address them over their own preferences, because I am not an *******.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 12:10 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Social and cultural assumptions and interactions, which is what I've been saying.
So not someone's internal, mental self-identity?
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Old 23rd December 2020, 12:11 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Social and cultural assumptions and interactions, which is what I've been saying.
And what a lot of people in this thread have been saying is that there's limits to how far these social and cultural assumptions and interactions can reasonably go, and what should those limits be as a matter of public policy.

And some people have been saying that it's not reasonable to have any limits at all, and that some of the places where people see a reasonble limit (medicine, competitive sports) don't actually matter and can be dismissed without consideration.

So far all you've done is try reset the conversation back to the beginning of the first installment of this thread. Why not try to catch up a little, first?
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Old 23rd December 2020, 12:15 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Lots of things CAN happen, but among things that can happen, they do not all actually happen with equal frequency or probability.
I can guarantee that, statistically, you have shared a restroom with far more gay men than you have trans men. I know I have. I can further guarantee that women have shared bathrooms with far more lesbians than trans women.

Why do we fear monger trans women so much? Is there any actual data supporting the idea that trans women attack women (cis or trans) more than any other group?
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Old 23rd December 2020, 12:16 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
"Human"?

It's not a straight forward question because it lacks context. If I meet someone on the street, how do I know the quantity and qualities of their gametes? I can make a guess based on physical appearance and manner of dress, perhaps I could infer information from their name. Perhaps they have a card or name tag that specifies their pronouns, in which case, I would use those out of courtesy.

What I absolutely would not do is pat down their groin or take a peek in their pants and determine how do address them over their own preferences, because I am not an *******.
If you meet someone in the locker room, you can take a pretty good guess.

If you see someone finish a race 20 yards ahead of the other racers, you can probably get a pretty good clue.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 12:17 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So not someone's internal, mental self-identity?
Also that, my statement was not meant to be exclusive to other aspects, unless I misunderstood the question.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 12:19 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
If you meet someone in the locker room, you can take a pretty good guess.
Am I the weird one who makes a point of avoiding looking at people in locker rooms?
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