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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 22nd December 2020, 02:13 PM   #281
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Females don't "identify as women". We ARE women. I no more "identify as a woman" than I "identify as brunette."



I call ******** on this. Your explanation is that transwomen "identify with" the restrictive, demeaning stereotypes that society places on females, and which act as barriers to women.

By your logic, tomboys aren't women. Gals who dislike pink and hate makeup aren't women. Or at least, they're "less of a woman" than a transwoman is, because the transwoman "identifies with" the pretty, pink, docile, polite, subservient, caring, crapola role that society forces on females without their goddamned consent!

+++++++++++++++++

If a white man identifies with the expectation of being aggressive, violent, criminal, physically strong, under-educated, and inferior... would you say that that white man's claim to identify as a black man is valid and real and should be respected?


.....all of which demonstrates at best a misapprehension of what gender dysphoria and trans-identity are (and what they are not), or at worst a large dose of bigotry and intolerance.

The radical feminism is noted though.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 02:24 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Please would you just provide links to a few reliable news reports which describe cismen pretending to be transwomen in order to enter women-only spaces and offend against ciswomen.
There aren't many. here's one:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/u...voyeurism.html

Now, the story says that it's a transgender woman, not someone pretending to be a transwoman. What I know for certain it is is a male bodied individual in a women's changing room, sticking a camera over a room divider to take pictures of women in their underwear.

So maybe it doesn't count, eh?
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Old 22nd December 2020, 02:27 PM   #283
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And, this one:

https://www.courthousenews.com/texas...ing-incidents/

Similar activity, but in Texas.

ETA: Toronto

https://www.christianexaminer.com/ar...ooms/49680.htm

ETA: This study claims an overall increase in voyeurism and similar incidents after Target changed its changing room policies:

https://womanmeanssomething.com/targetstudy/

Earlier in the thread there was a lot of talk about a UK study that showed sexual harassment and voyeurism incidents occuring in UK unisex changing facilities.
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Last edited by Meadmaker; 22nd December 2020 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 02:28 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You've given a couple examples of when self-identification isn't sufficient to be perceived as a member of a group (minor, veteran) and I'm wondering what would be a good example of when self-identification is indeed sufficient. Fanhood, perhaps? Certain religious sects?
Even fanhoods and religious sects are free to come to their own conclusions about whether you're a "real" fan or a "true" believer. Self-ID is sufficient for you, but not binding on anyone else.

But I think gnome's idea is a good one. Examining what's at stake can help us determine what criteria we should apply, and what policy changes we should make to meet the needs of the various stakeholders.

Like if Boudicca says that what's at stake is her desire to eligible for women's sports leagues, we can discuss whether self-ID alone should be sufficient for that. We can also weigh the competing goods of different stakeholders to see if any of them have a predominant claim or if some kind of compromise can be reached.

Or if Boudicca says that what's at stake is her mental health, we can discuss whether self-ID alone should be sufficient to meet all her requirements. We can also see what is required for an actual mental health diagnosis, and what specific accommodations are recommended by mental health professionals to treat the diagnosed condition.

Things like that.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 02:31 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
There aren't many. here's one:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/u...voyeurism.html

Now, the story says that it's a transgender woman, not someone pretending to be a transwoman. What I know for certain it is is a male bodied individual in a women's changing room, sticking a camera over a room divider to take pictures of women in their underwear.

So maybe it doesn't count, eh?


No, it does count to a degree. But clearly it's not a case of a cisman masquerading as a transwoman in order to offend. I suspect it would be easy to find reports of ciswomen (perhaps gay ciswomen) engaging in that sort of activity as well. But nobody is talking about preventing gay ciswomen from entering women-only spaces.

Oh, and there's this extract from the paper I linked to just now, which might be (is) relevant here:

No evidence was identified to support the claim that trans women are more likely than non-trans women to sexually assault other women in women-only spaces. This lack of evidence is reiterated by other sources.


Remember, the underlying question here is this: are ciswomen at any significantly increased risk from a policy of allowing transwomen to access women-only spaces?
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Old 22nd December 2020, 02:33 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
There aren't many. here's one:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/u...voyeurism.html

Now, the story says that it's a transgender woman, not someone pretending to be a transwoman. What I know for certain it is is a male bodied individual in a women's changing room, sticking a camera over a room divider to take pictures of women in their underwear.

So maybe it doesn't count, eh?
I’m certain it won’t count to some here. Neither will the case, cited many times in these threads, of male bodied high school athletes insisting on using female change rooms and forcing young women to use smaller change rooms. Or the cases of assault by self-identified transwomen in women’s shelters. I’ve seen links to these cases, but the effort to dig them up is beyond me right now.

There might be only few examples like this, but they are not insignificant.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 02:35 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post

First one: yes, that's clearly related to the question at hand.

Second one: not related - gender-neutral spaces are a different matter altogether.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 02:37 PM   #288
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What about the weightlifters identifying as women long enough to smash a women's weightlifting record? I'm pretty sure there's been a couple of those.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 02:50 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I suspect it would be easy to find reports of ciswomen (perhaps gay ciswomen) engaging in that sort of activity as well.
I suspect it would be nearly impossible to find any example of ciswomen engaging in anything remotely like that sort of activity. I also suspect you won't be able to find any examples of transmen engaging in anything like that sort of activity.

Why not? Because women don't do that, and transmen are women.

If you ever find such an incident, where a female bodied person is snapping voyeuristic photos of anyone, men or women, I'll guarantee you she is sharing those photos with her boyfriend.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:05 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I suspect it would be nearly impossible to find any example of ciswomen engaging in anything remotely like that sort of activity. I also suspect you won't be able to find any examples of transmen engaging in anything like that sort of activity.

Why not? Because women don't do that, and transmen are women.

Well your claim here doesn't appear to chime with the quote I used just now from that research paper:

No evidence was identified to support the claim that trans women are more likely than non-trans women to sexually assault other women in women-only spaces. This lack of evidence is reiterated by other sources.



Quote:
If you ever find such an incident, where a female bodied person is snapping voyeuristic photos of anyone, men or women, I'll guarantee you she is sharing those photos with her boyfriend.

Notwithstanding that I don't agree with this claim (and nor does that paper I'm quoting), I fail to understand your point. Are you suggesting that if it's a case of the perpetrator sharing illegally-taken photos with her boyfriend, this somehow serves as a mitigating factor when assessing the offence?
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:18 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Notwithstanding that I don't agree with this claim (and nor does that paper I'm quoting), I fail to understand your point. Are you suggesting that if it's a case of the perpetrator sharing illegally-taken photos with her boyfriend, this somehow serves as a mitigating factor when assessing the offence?
The paper doesn't include voyeurism as an offense, I'll bet. Certainly the quote you gave from it doesn't signify it does.

As for what I am saying, I am saying that if voyeurism is involved, there's a man in there somewhere. No ciswoman or transman is going to be doing it for her own enjoyment, but somewhere you might be able to find a woman who did it or went along with it because her guy liked it.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:25 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
That's not what he is saying at all. The ONLY people who are claiming to gatekeep who is and isn't a women are men* like Emily's Cat.

*Hey if she can do it, then I can do it too.
Difference being that I don't cry that it's literal violence that makes me feel unsafe... you know, because pronouns don't actually hurt people in any way.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:26 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
That is what he was saying.

You know I think sometimes the issue is that the good old 'skeptics' have an issue with just saying 'i don't know'

I have no idea what Eddie izzard actually means when he says he has a girl mode and a boy mode. but given that i have no expertise in the matter I don't feel like i am in a position to dispute it. I'll leave that to the people who study it
OMG, how dare you misgender Ms. Izzard! What is wrong with you!
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:37 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
That is one gem of a paper. I think it is worth a read for everyone. Here's my favorite excerpt.

"There is limited research from which to draw any conclusion about whether or
not transgender people have an athletic advantage in competitive sport."


I don't have sufficient time to detail all of my thoughts on the research presented in that paper.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:40 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
.....all of which demonstrates at best a misapprehension of what gender dysphoria and trans-identity are (and what they are not), or at worst a large dose of bigotry and intolerance.

The radical feminism is noted though.
This is a non-response. It conveys no meaning aside from your disdain and your dismissal of a female's perspective.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:43 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I suspect it would be easy to find reports of ciswomen (perhaps gay ciswomen) engaging in that sort of activity as well.
Your suspicion isn't evidence. Why not go find some cases of actual females engaging in substantially similar behavior? Then go ahead and try comparing the prevalence of such behavior by sex. Not gender identity and feels, but by actual sex.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:48 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
First one: yes, that's clearly related to the question at hand.

Second one: not related - gender-neutral spaces are a different matter altogether.


Please stop lawyering this to death.

All of these are cases where MALES are harming females. I don't give a crap whether they're natal males or transwomen - they are still male.

You flip-flop on this. It's a great semantic game you're playing, but I'm tired of the rhetorical cartwheels.

You claim that transwomen don't represent a risk to females. You are shown cases where transwomen have harmed females. You ignore them, or dismiss them for some technicality.

You claim that allowing transwomen access to women's spaces on the basis of self-id alone doesn't give natal males a loophole to exploit. You're shown cases where they do. You ignore them, or you dismiss them for some technicality.

No matter how it pans out, you've always got an easy lawyerly technicality to excuse the misbehavior of males, and to imply that females don't have a legitimate concern.

So here's a very straightforward question. Which is more important to you: the affirmation of the internal identity of transwomen... or the safety and dignity of females?
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:50 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No evidence was identified to support the claim that trans women are more likely than non-trans women to sexually assault other women in women-only spaces. This lack of evidence is reiterated by other sources.
On the other hand, there's plenty of evidence showing that transwomen commit violent and sexual crimes at the same rate as natal males, which is massively higher than for females of any sort.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:51 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The paper doesn't include voyeurism as an offense, I'll bet. Certainly the quote you gave from it doesn't signify it does.
Lol, good point.

There may not have been a study of that done under controlled circumstances... but there is a plethora of evidence in the form of transwomen bragging about the thrill they get sneaking peaks at other women in the changing rooms.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:52 PM   #300
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Limited research =/= not enough research

Seems like all the research about whether men have an athletic advantage in competitive sport over women would be relevant. Although maybe that's not been much researched, either. Probably because it's mundane and well known already.

Though, I could see trans-activists arguing that Karsten Braasch vs Serena Williams doesn't count, and FC Dallas under-15s boys squad vs US Women's National Soccer Team doesn't count, because the subjects were all cisgender at the time. Until Serena Williams plays a bunch of committed transwomen and loses, we won't really be able to draw any conclusions...
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:56 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
"There is limited research from which to draw any conclusion about whether or
not transgender people have an athletic advantage in competitive sport."
Wow. That's... not a well researched paper.

It's worth noting, too, that not only is this not a research paper, this isn't even an academic review article. This was written up by librarians, who have no particular expertise in the field, after doing basically just google searches. And they can up with a scant 13 references. That's it. That's the full extent of their research: they googled a few terms, found a few references, and then basically said those thirteen sources couldn't reach any real conclusions about anything. Which... sure, that may be an accurate summary of those 13 sources.

But it's not exactly a useful overview of the topic.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:59 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Difference being that I don't cry that it's literal violence that makes me feel unsafe... you know, because pronouns don't actually hurt people in any way.
Interesting article published recently in BJPsych.

"Within current debates, if gender identity becomes uncoupled from both biological sex and gendered socialisation (Box 1), it develops an intangible soul-like quality or ‘essence’. As a pure subjective experience, it may be overwhelming and powerful but is also unverifiable and unfalsifiable. If this identity is held to be a person's innermost core concept of self, then questioning the very existence of gender identity becomes equated with questioning that person's entire sense of being, and consequently risks being considered a threat to the right to exist, or even as a threat to kill."

One can see a similarity to any other situation where one's sense of self comes to depend on an unverifiable belief system (e.g. religious fundamentalism, where blasphemy is seen as an attack on the identity and dignity of the person holding a belief system and provokes censorship or violent reaction).
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Old 22nd December 2020, 03:59 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Though, I could see trans-activists arguing that Karsten Braasch vs Serena Williams doesn't count, and FC Dallas under-15s boys squad vs US Women's National Soccer Team doesn't count, because the subjects were all cisgender at the time. Until Serena Williams plays a bunch of committed transwomen and loses, we won't really be able to draw any conclusions...
Maybe that's the key: maybe identifying as a man provides a huge athletic performance boost.

In which case, we better find out a way to prevent transmen who don't medically transition and hide their identification as men from competing against women unfairly.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 04:11 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That is one gem of a paper. I think it is worth a read for everyone. Here's my favorite excerpt.

"There is limited research from which to draw any conclusion about whether or
not transgender people have an athletic advantage in competitive sport."


I don't have sufficient time to detail all of my thoughts on the research presented in that paper.
I had to laugh at:
Quote:
There appears to be a lack of primary research on the actual experienced impacts of trans inclusion in services.
What was the term? Chesterton Fences?

Well gee, I mean, we know that males commit violent crimes at a massively higher rate than females, and we know that males commit over 98% of all sexual crimes, and we know that males sneak into women's locker rooms, do panty-raids, peep on girls changing, and engage in a wide variety of voyeuristic behaviors, as well as flashing.

But hey, this hasn't actually been, like studied you know? We should totally just let any male who proclaims to be a "woman" gain access to female spaces, so we can study it to see if anything bad happens.

I'm sure the females won't mind being guinea pigs, it's in the name of science!
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Old 22nd December 2020, 04:27 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
Interesting article published recently in BJPsych.

"Within current debates, if gender identity becomes uncoupled from both biological sex and gendered socialisation (Box 1), it develops an intangible soul-like quality or ‘essence’. As a pure subjective experience, it may be overwhelming and powerful but is also unverifiable and unfalsifiable. If this identity is held to be a person's innermost core concept of self, then questioning the very existence of gender identity becomes equated with questioning that person's entire sense of being, and consequently risks being considered a threat to the right to exist, or even as a threat to kill."

One can see a similarity to any other situation where one's sense of self comes to depend on an unverifiable belief system (e.g. religious fundamentalism, where blasphemy is seen as an attack on the identity and dignity of the person holding a belief system and provokes censorship or violent reaction).
That was a good paper, very informative, and touches on a lot of the concerns with how this is being adddressed. There's a lot to talk about in there, but these bits jumped out to me:

Quote:
Attempts to ‘cure’ same-sex desire included psychotherapy, hormone treatment and various behavioural interventions. These interventions are now considered ‘conversion’ or ‘reparative’ therapy.3 One high-profile failure for such ‘treatments’ was Alan Turing. After being found guilty of gross indecency in 1951, he was prescribed oestrogen, which rendered him impotent and caused gynaecomastia. He died by suicide in 1954.
Now, they're prescribing estrogen and testosterone to people who are likely closeted homosexuals, but it seems like it's no longer considered conversion therapy to do so...

Quote:
Same-sex attraction was particularly common among natal females, with only 8.5% of those referred to the GIDS describing themselves as primarily attracted to boys. This raises important questions about current societal acceptance of young lesbians even within youth LGBTQ+ culture. It is possible that at least some gender-non-conforming girls come to believe themselves boys or ‘trans masculine non-binary’ as more acceptable or comfortable explanations for same-sex sexual attraction,35 a kind of ‘internalised homophobia’.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 04:31 PM   #306
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the search terms were rather limited as well:

Quote:
The relevant search terms used were as follows:
 Trans OR transgender AND "women's services"
 Trans OR transgender AND discrimination OR disadvantage OR exclude OR
Exclusion AND "Women's services" OR "female services" OR services
 Marginalisation OR Marginalization AND LGBT OR Heterosexual
 "female services" OR "Women's services"
Bear this in mind when assessing the scope of the review.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 04:59 PM   #307
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Here's another incident of a cis-male disguising himself as a woman:
https://www.seattlepi.com/seattlenew...ry-5297665.php

To be clear, my position is not that trans-women are a danger to cis-women in bathrooms and locker rooms. My position is that access to these spaces via non-falsifiable criteria (self-ID alone) with no documentation creates a loophole that makes it easier for cis-men to enter these spaces with ill-intentions. Primarily, I think those ill intentions would be voyeurism or exhibitionism.

These are things men already do.

Voyeurism is commonplace enough that it's a theme in things like the Porky's movie and Dwight Twilley's video for "Girls." It's kind of been treated as a joke.

There are already men sneaking into bathrooms to plant cameras and such. Self-ID makes it so that you can't really challenge anyone's access to a space, which makes it easier to get away with and harder to discourage.

Articles pointing out that incidents increase in unisex spaces are relevant for the same reasons. They demonstrate that a reduction of hurdles will increase incidents of voyeurism. I would expect that because access is even more open in unisex facilities, the increase would be greater there, but it demonstrates an extreme.

Now, should trans-women be punished for the actions of cis-men? No. Of course not. But in navigating changing policies, the potential for abuse by cis-men should be considered and addressed.

And yes, I know there is man on man voyeurism in men's rooms and probably a little woman on woman in the women's room. The fact that the filter isn't perfect doesn't obligate using a coarser mesh.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 05:13 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Here's another incident of a cis-male disguising himself as a woman:
https://www.seattlepi.com/seattlenew...ry-5297665.php

To be clear, my position is not that trans-women are a danger to cis-women in bathrooms and locker rooms. My position is that access to these spaces via non-falsifiable criteria (self-ID alone) with no documentation creates a loophole that makes it easier for cis-men to enter these spaces with ill-intentions. Primarily, I think those ill intentions would be voyeurism or exhibitionism.
It's not even just documentation. There's an element of the trans activists that don't even want trans people to even have to present as their self-identified gender in order to access those spaces.

Quote:
There are already men sneaking into bathrooms to plant cameras and such. Self-ID makes it so that you can't really challenge anyone's access to a space, which makes it easier to get away with and harder to discourage.
Indeed. The idea that predators won't change their behavior to exploit changing standards is pretty much insane.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 05:26 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So, all biological females have the option to identify as women. They don't have to conform to societal expectations of women.
Right, they don’t have to conform in order for the average member of society to agree they’re women and treat them however that person treats women; they just have to be giving off enough social signals and/or physical signs so that that person doesn’t get confused.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker
Those females who conform to societal expectations of men, could identify as men.
Well, they could, but they’d still have to pass pretty well in order for the average member of society to treat them however that person treats men. A female can identify as a man without conforming to anything socially male, too, but will have less success being treated like they’re not just kidding.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker
A biolgical male who wishes to identify as female has to conform to the personality/super-ego manifestations which society ascribes to women.
Well, they don’t have to...

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
(...) someone can identify with whatever they want, but in order for other people to recognize that identification, the person wishing to be identified in a certain way has to conform to societal expectations.
Yeah, that sounds right.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 05:43 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What do a butch dyke and a 'straight' transwoman (thus being attracted to males) have in common that a natal male and a natal female do not?
Uh, gender identity, and probably some amount of social inclusion in queer culture and some experience of getting side-eyes from people who like everyone to Act Normal. That’s about it, I think.

But since natal males and natal females can still also be queer, they might share the latter two as well. The term ‘natal’ is a little confusing; it could just as easily mean someone trans who doesn’t medically transition, in which case the question wouldn’t parse very well.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 05:51 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Uh, gender identity
That's not a useful answer, given that the whole point of the question is what gender identity even means.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 06:23 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I’m certain it won’t count to some here. Neither will the case, cited many times in these threads, of male bodied high school athletes insisting on using female change rooms and forcing young women to use smaller change rooms. Or the cases of assault by self-identified transwomen in women’s shelters. I’ve seen links to these cases, but the effort to dig them up is beyond me right now.

There might be only few examples like this, but they are not insignificant.
Weirdly I have never heard of that one given the amount of threads, but doesn't surprise me.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 07:00 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What about the weightlifters identifying as women long enough to smash a women's weightlifting record? I'm pretty sure there's been a couple of those.
We had one.

Couldn't make the grade in the men's competition, then at age 37 or so, decided he was a she and crushed the opposition, taking a load of Commonwealth records.

Why yes, I did laugh when he/she/it smashed his/her/its elbow going for a record lift at the Commonwealth Games in 2018. Career-ending injury.

Tragic.
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Old 22nd December 2020, 08:28 PM   #314
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So I happened to be revisiting some old Jon Ronson audio and came across the Hare Psychopathy ChecklistWP as a result. This made me wonder whether there is an analogous diagnostic tool which professionals might use to determine a subject's gender identity. Anyone seen anything which fits the bill?
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Old 22nd December 2020, 09:51 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I had to laugh at:
I thought you might have been interested in this one:

Quote:
‘It
may be possible to protect cisgender women’s sense of security without excluding
trans persons … justifications that centre on discomfort tend to be overstated, and
can indeed be accommodated within a more nuanced, non-discriminatory approach’
such as clear communication of policies and rules of conduct.
(Emphasis added)


That whole section is an amazing exercise in doublespeak and missing the point.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 12:09 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I thought you might have been interested in this one:



(Emphasis added)


That whole section is an amazing exercise in doublespeak and missing the point.
Good quote

It is pretty funny how some people miss the bleeding hole in their own arguments.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 02:30 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
That is what he was saying.

I have no idea what Eddie izzard actually means when he says he has a girl mode and a boy mode. but given that i have no expertise in the matter I don't feel like i am in a position to dispute it. I'll leave that to the people who study it
Missed the point completely

Our London lawyer has been claiming that transgender people have a fixed and clear internal view of their gender which differs from biological reality.

Eddie Izzard is NOT of that view; it seems his views are less clear-cut and look (from the outside) very much like "making it up as I go along"/"let's find something shocking to say".
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Old 23rd December 2020, 03:20 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
No, but it is so incredibly close to being the same thing, not just consistent, but exactly the same, that one could be used as a standin for the other. And indeed, the only reason that the two are even mentioned is that people keep trying to pin down the sealions who are pretending to have a good faith conversation, but aren't.
That's weird because the people arguing for gamete based clear binaries had to ditch all that other stuff as part of their argument.


Quote:
It opens up damn few grey areas. It's really, really, close to binary.

There's a tiny bit of grey area. Caster Semenya and people like her. That's a pretty grey area. Jonathan Yaniv? Not a grey area. Guy who had impromptu surgery from a hand grenade? Not a grey area. Person who is in the process of physical transformation? Grey area. Person who has completed transformation? Not a grey area. (i.e. for the purposes of locker room use, darned near no one would say that a surgically altered person ought to use use the facilities of their birth sex.)

The number of people in the grey area is incredibly small, and no amount of self identification would shift someone into the grey area, regardless of whether we are talking about gamete production or the means available to engage in sexual intercourse.
Your examples of non-grey areas are interesting because surgically transitioned transwomen would not be women by gamete production and yet you say they would be women for the purposes of bathroom usage. I think a lot of people disagree with you on that. In other words a grey area.

Quote:
And...more sealioning. Yes, I have seen both men and women use the toilet. Far more men than women I might add, but you probably already guessed that. In the course of that observation, I have seen the genitals of both men and women.
I have used toilets for well over 2 score years and have NEVER seen a woman's genitals during the process. What the hell are you guys doing over there?

Quote:
Of course it's true and you know it, and it's obvious.
Asserting that your experience is true and obvious seems to be a thing with you. Maybe you should consider that other people have different experiences.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 03:25 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
There can be more than one oppressed group, jesus christ, you really do sound like a misogynist. I'm assuming it's not intentional, but so many of your posts about women's concerns just drip with it.

It seems to me like you believe that women who have these concerns are making them up, or stating them disingenuously, because... well, I'm still not sure of the because. They just don't want anybody else joining the elite female club, I guess?

When some nasty far-right wingnut preacher starts expressing "concerns" about women's sport, then yeah, I can understand why people might question the motivation. But what possible reason would otherwise liberal (non-radfem) women have for wanting to "oppress" trans people? They're just not that shocking or offensive. As so many in this thread have pointed out, they've always been around. But now we're trying to nail down some solid policies (which is a good thing for trans-people), and there's going to have to be discussion. It's not bigotry to have concerns. We're changing major social norms, here.

All you have by way of reply is snark, and it's so tiring to read everybody snarking at each other. This stuff is a big deal, and the way people approach talking about it is aggravating, unproductive, and upsetting.
It feels like these are questions you should be asking the people who want to oppress trans people rather than me. I don't know their reason for wishing to do so, it appears to be nothing more than prejudice.

as for the snark... that goes both ways. When attempts to ask genuine questions or understand arguments just get nonsense and disingenuous replies what else is left? And then of course you get random accusations of mysogyny because you don't agree with a minority of women trampling on the rights of others.
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Old 23rd December 2020, 03:41 AM   #320
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I suspect it would be nearly impossible to find any example of ciswomen engaging in anything remotely like that sort of activity. I also suspect you won't be able to find any examples of transmen engaging in anything like that sort of activity.

Why not? Because women don't do that, and transmen are women.

If you ever find such an incident, where a female bodied person is snapping voyeuristic photos of anyone, men or women, I'll guarantee you she is sharing those photos with her boyfriend.
I don't know if this is true but it certainly seems like the vast majority of voyeurism is cis man on cis woman. And it goes on currently with segregated bathrooms and changing rooms.

And before I get accused of misogyny again... just to be clear that's a ****** situation and it shouldn't happen and people who do it should be prosecuted.

But the question at hand is whether allowing transwomen to use female spaces is going to worsen the situation. Because that is the claim that is being made by those who oppose allowing transwomen access to female spaces.
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