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Old 12th January 2021, 05:23 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Whatever happened to burning at the stake? I'd like to see if that hairpiece burns.
Nope, it'd jump of and run away like the guys head in, The Thing.
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Old 12th January 2021, 05:58 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by rdaneel View Post
Reminds me of the joke about dogs chasing cars and not knowing what to do with it if they caught it.
I remember a cartoon from Mad Magazine (probably by Dave Berg) in which a family in car being chased by a dog, stops the car to see what would happen. Family leaning from window says, "Oh, that's what they'll do".
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Old 12th January 2021, 06:45 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
I remember a cartoon from Mad Magazine (probably by Dave Berg) in which a family in car being chased by a dog, stops the car to see what would happen. Family leaning from window says, "Oh, that's what they'll do".
Yeah, I remember that one. From the expressions I think they realised they'd have to wash the car afterwards. Which, of course, simply extends the analogy.

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Old 12th January 2021, 09:26 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by jnelso99 View Post
Iran's going to get nuked, isn't it...
Not a chance.
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Old 12th January 2021, 03:13 PM   #205
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I did some digging around and got some information about her & her military service. There are some things said about her that are not completely accurate and/or missing. I havenít taken many notes so there may be some things Iíve missed.

According to service records released by the Air Force Personnel Center, Babbitt served more than 12 years in different parts of the Air Force. She was on active duty from April 2004 to April 2008, and was a reservist from October 2008 to July 2010, AFPC said. The Air National Guard said she was a guardsman from July 2010 to July 2016. (The Air Force initially said Babbittís Guard service ended in November 2016.) ď [AF Times article]
This indicates that she was in for 12 years, not 14. This is something odd here unless the rules have changed in the last 40 years. It was the rule that an enlistee was obligated for a total of eight years, four active and four in inactive reserves. I donít know if she was in the inactive reserves or was somewhere in the active reserves for 21 months. (Inactive reserves = go home and be a civilian unless something happens and you get recalled for some exciting reason) (active reserves = continue being in the military and doing military stuff as a reservist).

Her job in the AF was Security Force, That was part of the Sky Cops but not as a policeman as you would think of as the classical MP or SP. She was in the Run & Gun part. Think more of an infantryman with more abilities. They did the airbase defense, quick reaction, gate guards, patrols, etc. At least when I was in they were proficient in at least three different firearms, one sidearm and the rest long guns, usually the M-16 and the Remington pump shotgun.

She had four combat tours, (really only two since I donít think that Qatar and Kuwait were considered combat areas), two while in the AF and two while in the Guard. The AF tours were in Iraq and Afghanistan, the two guard in Kuwait and Qatar. There are no indications of whether they were Remote PCS or TDY, Iím guessing TDY. There is a picture floating around of her and a friend somewhere in the Sandbox. No rank showing on the BDUs, but she was wearing a Security Force sleeve. One thing that surprised me was that both the women had jump wings. I think that was fairly rare.

There is a news article either in the Eielson base newspaper or Fairbanks paper about her and her first husband adopting a retired military dog, in which she was identified as an Airman first class (A1C/ E-3). That was the second from last base before she got out, the last being Dyess in Texas.

Her guard time seems to be in the Maryland Guard, since she was living in Annapolis in 2016 when she had a run in with the law before moving to California in 2017. She was charged with reckless endangerment after ramming the rear of her husbandís ex-girlfriendís car three times. Charges were dropped.

Her crime sheet has several misdemeanors, three DWIs, and three restraining orders of which two were still open. I donít know if any of these were connected.

She worked for a Nuc plant in San Diego as security for a short time and opened a pool service in 2017. She and her first husband divorced in May 2019 and she remarried several months later to Babbitt. She was described as being passionate and outspoken. She started to become a trumpist and a Qanon true believer around 2018. She seems to have had a lot of negative stuff start happening around that time after separating from the military.

SPECULATION

Her combat training, the expertise from her military job and her jump wings shows dedication, but the lack of advancement tells me that there were problems probably because of anger management. She apparently did not get promoted to Senior Airman (E-4) until late in her Guard period. I think she became a Problem Child in the AF. Her mindset in D.C. came from her training to attack whatever was in front of her and her new beliefs led her in the Capital. She was dangerous with that attitude.
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Old 12th January 2021, 04:31 PM   #206
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The "Great Uprising" might fizzle out, but I think it's best tor officials to prepare for a worst case scenario.
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Old 12th January 2021, 06:01 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Puddle Duck View Post
I did some digging around and got some information about her & her military service. There are some things said about her that are not completely accurate and/or missing. I havenít taken many notes so there may be some things Iíve missed.

According to service records released by the Air Force Personnel Center, Babbitt served more than 12 years in different parts of the Air Force. She was on active duty from April 2004 to April 2008, and was a reservist from October 2008 to July 2010, AFPC said. The Air National Guard said she was a guardsman from July 2010 to July 2016. (The Air Force initially said Babbittís Guard service ended in November 2016.) ď [AF Times article]
This indicates that she was in for 12 years, not 14. This is something odd here unless the rules have changed in the last 40 years. It was the rule that an enlistee was obligated for a total of eight years, four active and four in inactive reserves. I donít know if she was in the inactive reserves or was somewhere in the active reserves for 21 months. (Inactive reserves = go home and be a civilian unless something happens and you get recalled for some exciting reason) (active reserves = continue being in the military and doing military stuff as a reservist).

Her job in the AF was Security Force, That was part of the Sky Cops but not as a policeman as you would think of as the classical MP or SP. She was in the Run & Gun part. Think more of an infantryman with more abilities. They did the airbase defense, quick reaction, gate guards, patrols, etc. At least when I was in they were proficient in at least three different firearms, one sidearm and the rest long guns, usually the M-16 and the Remington pump shotgun.

She had four combat tours, (really only two since I donít think that Qatar and Kuwait were considered combat areas), two while in the AF and two while in the Guard. The AF tours were in Iraq and Afghanistan, the two guard in Kuwait and Qatar. There are no indications of whether they were Remote PCS or TDY, Iím guessing TDY. There is a picture floating around of her and a friend somewhere in the Sandbox. No rank showing on the BDUs, but she was wearing a Security Force sleeve. One thing that surprised me was that both the women had jump wings. I think that was fairly rare.

There is a news article either in the Eielson base newspaper or Fairbanks paper about her and her first husband adopting a retired military dog, in which she was identified as an Airman first class (A1C/ E-3). That was the second from last base before she got out, the last being Dyess in Texas.

Her guard time seems to be in the Maryland Guard, since she was living in Annapolis in 2016 when she had a run in with the law before moving to California in 2017. She was charged with reckless endangerment after ramming the rear of her husbandís ex-girlfriendís car three times. Charges were dropped.

Her crime sheet has several misdemeanors, three DWIs, and three restraining orders of which two were still open. I donít know if any of these were connected.

She worked for a Nuc plant in San Diego as security for a short time and opened a pool service in 2017. She and her first husband divorced in May 2019 and she remarried several months later to Babbitt. She was described as being passionate and outspoken. She started to become a trumpist and a Qanon true believer around 2018. She seems to have had a lot of negative stuff start happening around that time after separating from the military.

SPECULATION

Her combat training, the expertise from her military job and her jump wings shows dedication, but the lack of advancement tells me that there were problems probably because of anger management. She apparently did not get promoted to Senior Airman (E-4) until late in her Guard period. I think she became a Problem Child in the AF. Her mindset in D.C. came from her training to attack whatever was in front of her and her new beliefs led her in the Capital. She was dangerous with that attitude.
I also looked around and found many of the things you did. She became eligible for promotion to E4 after only 18-24 months in the service so it's very telling that she was only an E4 after 12 years. Also, she had posted a video of an angry rant while driving about immigrants and border security according to the AF Times. The woman definitely had anger issues.

This is an interview with a man who had a run in with her:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 12th January 2021, 08:43 PM   #208
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I hope the VA doesn't allow her to defile a veterans cemetery with her carcass.
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Old 12th January 2021, 08:56 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Puddle Duck View Post
I did some digging around and got some information about her & her military service. There are some things said about her that are not completely accurate and/or missing. I havenít taken many notes so there may be some things Iíve missed.

According to service records released by the Air Force Personnel Center, Babbitt served more than 12 years in different parts of the Air Force. She was on active duty from April 2004 to April 2008, and was a reservist from October 2008 to July 2010, AFPC said. The Air National Guard said she was a guardsman from July 2010 to July 2016. (The Air Force initially said Babbittís Guard service ended in November 2016.) ď [AF Times article]
This indicates that she was in for 12 years, not 14. This is something odd here unless the rules have changed in the last 40 years. It was the rule that an enlistee was obligated for a total of eight years, four active and four in inactive reserves. I donít know if she was in the inactive reserves or was somewhere in the active reserves for 21 months. (Inactive reserves = go home and be a civilian unless something happens and you get recalled for some exciting reason) (active reserves = continue being in the military and doing military stuff as a reservist).

Her job in the AF was Security Force, That was part of the Sky Cops but not as a policeman as you would think of as the classical MP or SP. She was in the Run & Gun part. Think more of an infantryman with more abilities. They did the airbase defense, quick reaction, gate guards, patrols, etc. At least when I was in they were proficient in at least three different firearms, one sidearm and the rest long guns, usually the M-16 and the Remington pump shotgun.

She had four combat tours, (really only two since I donít think that Qatar and Kuwait were considered combat areas), two while in the AF and two while in the Guard. The AF tours were in Iraq and Afghanistan, the two guard in Kuwait and Qatar. There are no indications of whether they were Remote PCS or TDY, Iím guessing TDY. There is a picture floating around of her and a friend somewhere in the Sandbox. No rank showing on the BDUs, but she was wearing a Security Force sleeve. One thing that surprised me was that both the women had jump wings. I think that was fairly rare.

There is a news article either in the Eielson base newspaper or Fairbanks paper about her and her first husband adopting a retired military dog, in which she was identified as an Airman first class (A1C/ E-3). That was the second from last base before she got out, the last being Dyess in Texas.

Her guard time seems to be in the Maryland Guard, since she was living in Annapolis in 2016 when she had a run in with the law before moving to California in 2017. She was charged with reckless endangerment after ramming the rear of her husbandís ex-girlfriendís car three times. Charges were dropped.

Her crime sheet has several misdemeanors, three DWIs, and three restraining orders of which two were still open. I donít know if any of these were connected.

She worked for a Nuc plant in San Diego as security for a short time and opened a pool service in 2017. She and her first husband divorced in May 2019 and she remarried several months later to Babbitt. She was described as being passionate and outspoken. She started to become a trumpist and a Qanon true believer around 2018. She seems to have had a lot of negative stuff start happening around that time after separating from the military.

SPECULATION

Her combat training, the expertise from her military job and her jump wings shows dedication, but the lack of advancement tells me that there were problems probably because of anger management. She apparently did not get promoted to Senior Airman (E-4) until late in her Guard period. I think she became a Problem Child in the AF. Her mindset in D.C. came from her training to attack whatever was in front of her and her new beliefs led her in the Capital. She was dangerous with that attitude.

Jesus, you don't say... only A1C/E-3 after how many years? Most of the guys I served with on my exchange to Hickam AFB back in the day were five to eight years and at least SSgt or TSgt (I think that's E-5/E-6 in new money)

Usually such slow advancement as hers speaks to disciplinary, attitude and/or problems with authority.
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Old 12th January 2021, 09:09 PM   #210
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They thought their presence would intimidate the congress into overruling the election, and they would be back in their hotels before buffet ends.
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Old 12th January 2021, 11:31 PM   #211
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Trumpist masculinity reaches its high water mark.

In several, he was accompanied by a graying 57-year-old woman. And this is the point at which the portrait of Munchel became fuller, because this is the point at which it became a working theory that Zip Tie Guy had brought his mom to the revolution.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...207_story.html

Zip tie guy brought his mom to the revolt. She is 57. You can see her in some of the photos.
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Old 13th January 2021, 04:55 AM   #212
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There's an interesting press interview with Eric Munchel, conducted shortly before his arrest by the British newspaper, The Sunday Times. The Times, interviewed Munchel and his mom, Lisa Eisenhart, a nurse. Munchel is quoted as explaining the point of the protest and invasion of the Capitol. ďIt was a kind of flexing of muscles . . . . The intentions of going in were not to fight the police. The point of getting inside the building is to show them that we can, and we will.Ē His mom told the Times, ďThis country was founded on revolution. If theyíre going to take every legitimate means from us, and we canít even express ourselves on the internet, we wonít even be able to speak freely, what is America for?"

If you can't tell lies and threaten people on social media in the U.S., who needs it? Like my ex-Boss would say, "Damn! You can't make this stuff up."

Link to article in Cape Coral (Fla) News Press
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File Type: jpg Zip Tie Guy.jpg (30.9 KB, 8 views)
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Old 13th January 2021, 05:45 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
Trumpist masculinity reaches its high water mark.

In several, he was accompanied by a graying 57-year-old woman. And this is the point at which the portrait of Munchel became fuller, because this is the point at which it became a working theory that Zip Tie Guy had brought his mom to the revolution.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...207_story.html

Zip tie guy brought his mom to the revolt. She is 57. You can see her in some of the photos.
Or she brought him or they both share the same politics and attitudes?

Iím not sure why it is at all newsworthy that multiple generations of a family attended a protest and then went on to try and overthrow the government.
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Old 13th January 2021, 05:50 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
There's an interesting press interview with Eric Munchel, conducted shortly before his arrest by the British newspaper, The Sunday Times. The Times, interviewed Munchel and his mom, Lisa Eisenhart, a nurse. Munchel is quoted as explaining the point of the protest and invasion of the Capitol. ďIt was a kind of flexing of muscles . . . . The intentions of going in were not to fight the police. The point of getting inside the building is to show them that we can, and we will.Ē His mom told the Times, ďThis country was founded on revolution. If theyíre going to take every legitimate means from us, and we canít even express ourselves on the internet, we wonít even be able to speak freely, what is America for?"

If you can't tell lies and threaten people on social media in the U.S., who needs it? Like my ex-Boss would say, "Damn! You can't make this stuff up."

Link to article in Cape Coral (Fla) News Press
Such fine people:
.... Fulton County, Georgia, court records show Munchel stood trial for misdemeanor battery charges in 2015. According to Patch, a hyper-local news site, the Sandy Springs Police Department Captain said Munchel and another man were accused of assaulting a man and woman in 2013. Records on the final disposition of the case werenít immediately available.

He wa.....
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Old 13th January 2021, 06:41 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Or she brought him or they both share the same politics and attitudes?

I’m not sure why it is at all newsworthy that multiple generations of a family attended a protest and then went on to try and overthrow the government.

It's probably just the image of them together, like Prince Charming and the Fairy Godmother in the "Shrek" movies.

"Now you will die foul Ogre!"
"Eeee! Help me Mummy!"
"Don't worry dear. Mummy's here to protect you."
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Old 13th January 2021, 07:24 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
There's an interesting press interview with Eric Munchel, conducted shortly before his arrest by the British newspaper, The Sunday Times. The Times, interviewed Munchel and his mom, Lisa Eisenhart, a nurse. Munchel is quoted as explaining the point of the protest and invasion of the Capitol. “It was a kind of flexing of muscles . . . . The intentions of going in were not to fight the police. The point of getting inside the building is to show them that we can, and we will.” His mom told the Times, “This country was founded on revolution. If they’re going to take every legitimate means from us, and we can’t even express ourselves on the internet, we won’t even be able to speak freely, what is America for?"

If you can't tell lies and threaten people on social media in the U.S., who needs it? Like my ex-Boss would say, "Damn! You can't make this stuff up."

Link to article in Cape Coral (Fla) News Press
That little meme from these people is getting kind of tiresome. One revolution doesn't justify another just by invoking it. That first revolution was based on the idea of "no representation"; this one appears to be based on "we had a vote, and we got outvoted! Waaaaaahhhhhhh!"
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Old 13th January 2021, 07:31 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
That little meme from these people is getting kind of tiresome. One revolution doesn't justify another just by invoking it. That first revolution was based on the idea of "no representation"; this one appears to be based on "we had a vote, and we got outvoted! Waaaaaahhhhhhh!"
Other countries founded by revolutions include the Soviet Union, communist China, North Korea, and modern Iran. I doubt the people invoking the holiness of revolutions really extends that beyond one single example of a revolution.
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Old 13th January 2021, 07:32 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
That little meme from these people is getting kind of tiresome. One revolution doesn't justify another just by definition. That first revolution was based on the idea of "no representation"; this one appears to be based on "we had a vote, and we got outvoted! Waaaaaahhhhhhh!"


Also the fact that they want to have a revolution, but seem to think no one should or will push back on that.

"The Evil PedoDemoncrats stole our election! We're going to have a revolution to take it back!" "Oh my god, whoever thought that Evil PedoDemoncrats might fight back! This isn't what I signed up for!"


I could see myself getting to the point where I think a government is so corrupt and oppressive that violent revolution is the only realistic way of fixing things. But if I ever get to that point, I fully expect that the government that is so corrupt I want to overthrow it will do their level best to kill me and all my friends in response. That's what evil and corrupt governments do.
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Old 13th January 2021, 07:47 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Or she brought him or they both share the same politics and attitudes?

Iím not sure why it is at all newsworthy that multiple generations of a family attended a protest and then went on to try and overthrow the government.
It is the absurdity. It is a pretty interesting symbolic representation of Trumpism.

In the immediate aftermath when these pictures came to light he was an extremely ominous figure. Full tactical gear, looked as if there was a weapon, zip ties, hopping over a railing like a person there with a directed purpose that isn't good news for who he sees as the bad guys.

And then... it turns out the goofy looking person standing behind him in the purple hoodie, khakis, orange beanie and wearing a backpack backwards is not only with him, but his mother.

There is so much there to unpack about the banality of evil. How he goes from appearing to be some sort of strictly business operative to a mama's boy playing dressup to the realization that the mama's boy probably would have been slapping those cuffs on someone like AOC as others physically beat her because they think she is a communist who engages in child trafficking or whatnot.
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Old 13th January 2021, 07:49 AM   #220
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Doubtless the need for a continuing revolution, a "Cultural Revolution" if you will, shall be explained to us in the reeducation camps by our new rulers. I for one welcome our new overlords, as is traditional, and suggest that in honour of their MAGA hats they might take the name "the Red Guards".

I do worry a little that instead of being forced to rediscover the virtues of honest peasant labour, we may be recommended to learn the thrill of sitting in a basement making up masturbatory fantasies about military-style uprisings full of special forces cliche dialogue, while wearing all the kit we could find online with "tactical" in the name.
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Old 13th January 2021, 07:49 AM   #221
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Again this isn't shocking.

Pretending that context, nuance, and degree just don't exist and demanding that every point be argued in a total vacuum has been the cornerstone of all bad arguments for a while. It's so old news it's cliche to those who have been in the trenches arguing with Woo Slingers.
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Old 13th January 2021, 07:50 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
It is the absurdity. It is a pretty interesting symbolic representation of Trumpism.

In the immediate aftermath when these pictures came to light he was an extremely ominous figure. Full tactical gear, looked as if there was a weapon, zip ties, hopping over a railing like a person there with a directed purpose that isn't good news for who he sees as the bad guys.

And then... it turns out the goofy looking person standing behind him in the purple hoodie, khakis, orange beanie and wearing a backpack backwards is not only with him, but his mother.

There is so much there to unpack about the banality of evil. How he goes from appearing to be some sort of strictly business operative to a mama's boy playing dressup to the realization that the mama's boy probably would have been slapping those cuffs on someone like AOC as others physically beat her because they think she is a communist who engages in child trafficking or whatnot.
That makes sense and you are right. I hadn’t thought it through.
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Old 13th January 2021, 07:55 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Doubtless the need for a continuing revolution, a "Cultural Revolution" if you will, shall be explained to us in the reeducation camps by our new rulers. I for one welcome our new overlords, as is traditional, and suggest that in honour of their MAGA hats they might take the name "the Red Guards".

I do worry a little that instead of being forced to rediscover the virtues of honest peasant labour, we may be recommended to learn the thrill of sitting in a basement making up masturbatory fantasies about military-style uprisings full of special forces cliche dialogue, while wearing all the kit we could find online with "tactical" in the name.
I think ďRedcapsĒ may be more appropriate.

ď
.... Redcap is depicted as "a short, thickset old man with long prominent teeth, skinny fingers armed with talons like eagles, large eyes of a fiery red colour, grisly hair streaming down his shoulders, iron boots, a pikestaff in his left hand, and a red cap on his head". When travellers take refuge in his lair, he flings huge stones at them and if he kills them, he soaks his cap in their blood, giving it a crimson hue. ....
Ē
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Old 13th January 2021, 08:09 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think “Redcaps” may be more appropriate.
Yeah you may be right but, just in case I didn't labour the joke hard enough, I meant these guys Red Guards whom Chairman Mao unleashed on China in the '60s to smash the place up and scare the crap, and indeed beat the crap, out of bourgeois backsliders.
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Old 13th January 2021, 08:15 AM   #225
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There is a great danger that when the sheer stupidity and foolishness of those involved in this attack comes to light that public opinion will soften on the assumption that stupid people can't be that dangerous. Stupid people are easier to catch maybe, and more likely to derail themselves by livestreaming their crimes or insisting on occupying Stalingrad, but that doesn't make their crimes somehow less awful just because they deserve mockery.
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Old 13th January 2021, 08:22 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Also the fact that they want to have a revolution, but seem to think no one should or will push back on that.

"The Evil PedoDemoncrats stole our election! We're going to have a revolution to take it back!" "Oh my god, whoever thought that Evil PedoDemoncrats might fight back! This isn't what I signed up for!"

Their enemies are tofu-eating, latte-sipping, snowflakes who can't survive outside safe spaces and hate weapons. Why would they fight back? How could they fight back?
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Old 13th January 2021, 08:25 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Their enemies are tofu-eating, latte-sipping, snowflakes who can't survive outside safe spaces and hate weapons. Why would they fight back? How could they fight back?
Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo made the same mistake.

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Old 13th January 2021, 08:30 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Other countries founded by revolutions include the Soviet Union, communist China, North Korea, and modern Iran. I doubt the people invoking the holiness of revolutions really extends that beyond one single example of a revolution.
And modern France. The difference is Napoleon, Lenin, Mao, Ho Chi Min, Pancho Villa, Che all fought alongside their troops. They didnít watch from their balcony.
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Old 13th January 2021, 08:53 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post

Actually, I wonder if that might take a bit of the wind out of their sails. The loyal crazies might not have the same enthusiasm for showing they have Trump's back now that he's shown he absolutely doesn't have theirs.

If they have not realized that in the last 4 years, the chance that they will now is almost 0
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Old 13th January 2021, 08:57 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Also the fact that they want to have a revolution, but seem to think no one should or will push back on that.

"The Evil PedoDemoncrats stole our election! We're going to have a revolution to take it back!" "Oh my god, whoever thought that Evil PedoDemoncrats might fight back! This isn't what I signed up for!"


I could see myself getting to the point where I think a government is so corrupt and oppressive that violent revolution is the only realistic way of fixing things. But if I ever get to that point, I fully expect that the government that is so corrupt I want to overthrow it will do their level best to kill me and all my friends in response. That's what evil and corrupt governments do.

I know you are aware of this on an intellectual level, but it bears repeating that they1 in no way actually believe the things they claim.

All their arguments are bad faith. They don't care about the country, don't think the government is tyrannical, and don't think the election is being stolen. They are lying. They say these things as rationalizations, as excuses. Furthermore they thought that all the democracy and voting and standards were also rationalizations for 'us' to get our way. They don't have morals or principles and don't think anyone else does either.

They actually thought the government was so geared towards doing exactly what they want that they could kill members of Congress and then just go home.

1 As a group generally, with many individual exceptions, in this case mostly the especially stupid.
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Old 13th January 2021, 09:02 AM   #231
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It's worse even than that.

People who make rationalizations at least know they are making rationalizations.

This is something new. It's Jabba-ing, the idea that if you can win an argument, you can rewrite reality.

If I convince you that (or just "win an argument with you about") 2+2=7 by some combination of bad argumentatives, pigheadedness, and procedural theatrics... 2+2 still equals four.

Republicans are at the point know where I no longer fully trust them to understand that.
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Old 13th January 2021, 09:07 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by rambaldi View Post
If they have not realized that in the last 4 years, the chance that they will now is almost 0
That and the core of this movement would have no trouble going forward by framing Trump as a villain. As of now it is still anything bad about him is a fake news plot by their enemies, but these things change.

It is an offshoot of the same FOTL conspiracy theories that have been lurking around for decades. Common law theorists, Sovereign citizens, NESARA, etc. Trump is useful, not essential.
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Old 13th January 2021, 09:14 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's worse even than that.

People who make rationalizations at least know they are making rationalizations.

This is something new. It's Jabba-ing, the idea that if you can win an argument, you can rewrite reality.

If I convince you that (or just "win an argument with you about") 2+2=7 by some combination of bad argumentatives, pigheadedness, and procedural theatrics... 2+2 still equals four.

Republicans are at the point know where I no longer fully trust them to understand that.
Well, yeah. They think that studying to best understand reality is just another rationalization for 'us' to get what we want. They don't believe people studying life discovered that we evolved; they believe people wanted to oppose god so made up all the research. They don't believe Historians actually are describing the evidence and writings that show for example, the Confederate States betrayed the United States in order to keep owning people as property, they think 'we' are rewriting History because we want to. Continue this line of reasoning for elections and sex ed and LGBTQ (especially the 'T' right now) and climate change and freedom of religion and everything else.

They don't believe in reality.
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Old 13th January 2021, 09:18 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I know you are aware of this on an intellectual level, but it bears repeating that they1 in no way actually believe the things they claim.

All their arguments are bad faith.


That is certainly true of the leaders of this mob, and the old-school white supremacists who've been openly and/or actively part of this movement for years, but it doesn't explain everyone, and it doesn't explain their actions.

Someone above mentioned the FOTLs. It's like that. The people selling FOTL stuff on the Internet certainly don't believe the nonsense they're peddling, but every year, there's another sucker who walks into court thinking the "I refuse Joinder!" lines they learned from a book they bought on the internet is actually going to work.

I understand a liar or conman, they are easy to figure out. It's those who fall for the lies and cons so hard that they, all by themselves, screw up their lives and end up in jail over the nonsense that I can't figure out. Sure, some are just gullible and stupid, but not all of them appear that gullible and stupid.

Maybe it's just appearances being deceiving?
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Old 13th January 2021, 09:39 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
That is certainly true of the leaders of this mob, and the old-school white supremacists who've been openly and/or actively part of this movement for years, but it doesn't explain everyone, and it doesn't explain their actions.

Someone above mentioned the FOTLs. It's like that. The people selling FOTL stuff on the Internet certainly don't believe the nonsense they're peddling, but every year, there's another sucker who walks into court thinking the "I refuse Joinder!" lines they learned from a book they bought on the internet is actually going to work.

I understand a liar or conman, they are easy to figure out. It's those who fall for the lies and cons so hard that they, all by themselves, screw up their lives and end up in jail over the nonsense that I can't figure out. Sure, some are just gullible and stupid, but not all of them appear that gullible and stupid.

Maybe it's just appearances being deceiving?
Well they are being deceived, just not in the straightforward way. They think they're the ones pulling the con, doing the deceiving. Yes, like the FOTLs they think the 'magic words' rationalizations will let them get their way even if they don't believe the basis for the mechanisms of the words in the first place.

It's akin to a person thinking that money is a 'con' and feel like they're pulling one over on everyone because it doesn't have inherent value, even though everyone else already knows that.

They want to believe they're the ones both in control, and the victim. It's easy to fool people when you tell them 'you don't have to change, you don't have to put in effort, it's all being kept from you'. They thought they had the power to tell a lie and get what they wanted. The real question is, why wouldn't they think that? How many black people have been killed and the murderer got away by claiming clearly stupid rationalizations? Trump was elected once, and his arguments are moronic nonsense clearly contradicted by evidence.

Their conclusion is sadly not as crazy as it seems. Right now 20% of the US thinks they were right. There are people in Congress who were put in mortal danger by these people who are right now giving support to the insurrectionists.
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Old 13th January 2021, 09:42 AM   #236
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Again I just have to treat this like religion and Conspiracy theories and Woo.

A few deeply predatory people, mainly at the top. A lot of mentally unbalanced people making up the shell. And a core of varying of sad, lonely people who just want to belong to something.

Note that none of that excuses anyone.
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Old 13th January 2021, 09:56 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again I just have to treat this like religion and Conspiracy theories and Woo.

A few deeply predatory people, mainly at the top. A lot of mentally unbalanced people making up the shell. And a core of varying of sad, lonely people who just want to belong to something.

Note that none of that excuses anyone.
That's true, but there are some subtle differences that might inform tactics better.

With internal contradictions like Horatius pointed out, religious people and many CT believers avoid thinking about them. Pointing them out and focusing on them can and has broken people from them, soften views sometimes too. It takes effort for them to reconcile or rationalize.

With Trumpers they already knew the contradiction and didn't care about it. That cost is already baked in, and no energy is needed to deal with it. It's useful for pointing out the fence sitters, the unthinking reflexive 'moderates', and the low information people who just we're paying attention. To them it can show the intellectual bankruptcy of the GOP very well. To the Trumpers, it's just Wednesday. They don't need to think about it.
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Old 13th January 2021, 10:18 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
That is certainly true of the leaders of this mob, and the old-school white supremacists who've been openly and/or actively part of this movement for years, but it doesn't explain everyone, and it doesn't explain their actions.

Someone above mentioned the FOTLs. It's like that. The people selling FOTL stuff on the Internet certainly don't believe the nonsense they're peddling, but every year, there's another sucker who walks into court thinking the "I refuse Joinder!" lines they learned from a book they bought on the internet is actually going to work.

I understand a liar or conman, they are easy to figure out. It's those who fall for the lies and cons so hard that they, all by themselves, screw up their lives and end up in jail over the nonsense that I can't figure out. Sure, some are just gullible and stupid, but not all of them appear that gullible and stupid.

Maybe it's just appearances being deceiving?
There are a lot of people who are competent if not brilliant in some field that think they are smart about everything. Then they are adversely affected by a political or legal issue and they decide to research it. Dunning-Kruger + pigheadedness about being wrong = self-radicalization.

The archetype is the software engineer that is oblivious that he is abusive gets left by his wife, is ordered to pay alimony/child support, loses custody to the kids, and because of his simmering rage has his visitation gradually reduced, maybe a restraining order on top of that. He decides his lawyer worked against him and goes on google to research it, finds some MRA site, and off we go to the races as he learns about how the government is run by marxists who are out to destroy the family.


It used to be that the mad guy would at least have to go to the library or something which slowed it a bit. At this point with social media it would be hard for a guy in this spot to avoid being radicalized.
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Old 13th January 2021, 11:10 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Also the fact that they want to have a revolution, but seem to think no one should or will push back on that.

"The Evil PedoDemoncrats stole our election! We're going to have a revolution to take it back!" "Oh my god, whoever thought that Evil PedoDemoncrats might fight back! This isn't what I signed up for!"


I could see myself getting to the point where I think a government is so corrupt and oppressive that violent revolution is the only realistic way of fixing things. But if I ever get to that point, I fully expect that the government that is so corrupt I want to overthrow it will do their level best to kill me and all my friends in response. That's what evil and corrupt governments do.
But who is the President of the evil and corrupt government??
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Old 13th January 2021, 11:12 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by dejudge View Post
But who is the President of the evil and corrupt government??
George Soros or some other evil Jew I assume.

Again that's why the "Deep State" nonsense is so vital to the Republican's current mindset. They need a shadowy behind the scenes Keyser Soze so they are still the victim underdog even when they are in control of everything.

But even beyond that the Republicans have never had a problem selling their "governments sucks" message even when they are the government.
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