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1st December 2015, 07:14 AM | #281 |
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1st December 2015, 07:23 AM | #282 |
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1st December 2015, 07:28 AM | #283 |
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1st December 2015, 07:32 AM | #284 |
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Well that's because although the entire structure was already moving, the bigbadpowersthatruleoverus required massive overkill. Sure the building was thoroughly doomed already but it had to be blowed up, blowed up real good.
That, or the building was in Wile E. Coyote mode and did not know it was hanging out over a void until it looked down. |
1st December 2015, 04:19 PM | #285 | |||
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1st December 2015, 05:12 PM | #286 |
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1st December 2015, 06:53 PM | #287 |
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1st December 2015, 08:33 PM | #288 |
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1st December 2015, 11:51 PM | #289 |
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2nd December 2015, 05:27 AM | #290 |
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No! That simply isn't true. His measurements don't agree with NIST's but they do show the free fall was not "right from the start." NIST's measurements show about a 7-foot drop over the first 1.75 seconds. That initial drop is explained by the NIST hypothesis -- i.e. this is when the 6th to 13th floors below were buckling, as the NIST model shows -- but this drop is unexplained by the magic silent explosive hypothesis. The subsequent free fall is explained by the columns breaking at splices, which were every two floors. The fallacious argument "free fall = CD" is an invalid inference because a broken column provides zero resistance, regardless of what broke it.
ETA: Here's a to-scale diagram of what a 7 foot drop over 8 stories would mean: Lacking any direct evidence of a CD but desperately wanting it to be a CD, you and Chandler are trying to infer a CD, but then you need to distort the facts and contort the logic to reach that conclusion. That should be your second clue, really, that you're on the wrong track -- the first being the non-existence of magic silent explosives. |
2nd December 2015, 06:51 AM | #291 |
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2nd December 2015, 07:43 AM | #292 |
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If you want to support a claim about Chandler's data, you better work with Chandler's data.
Do you consider NIST's "7-foot drop over the first 1.75 seconds" to be accurate? M_T, for all I despise him personally, listed several reasons why the NIST analysis is flawed. One of them being, IIRC, that they did not differentiat horizontal motion (kink) and vertical. Anyway, I think I understand whaz Tony is saying. Let's assume, to make for easier to read numbers, that Chandler is sampling at 0.1 s intervals. Let's assume the point measured at the roof line in reality was at rest until t0 = 0 Let's assume it then started to drop at g immediately. Then after 0.05 s, it would have dropped by 1/2 g t2 = 0.01225 m Suppose Chandler sampled such that he missed t0 by half a sample interval: He would record t|d (d is drop distance) around t0 as -0.05 s|0 m +0.05 s|0.01225 m He'd compute an average velocity of 0.1225 m/s and an average acceleration of 2.45 m/s2 (1/4 g). Get my drift? Tony, is that the sort of error you were thinking of when someone interprets Chandler's graph as showing 0<a<g initially? |
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2nd December 2015, 08:01 AM | #293 |
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Which is self correcting after that first interval, is it not? acceleration is derived by difference in velocity, which is derived by difference in distance traversed between intervals. So yes an average of all derivations of acceleration will be affected but if t=0 is in question, just drop the first interval.
or am I missing something? |
2nd December 2015, 08:01 AM | #294 |
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Agreed. In response to Gamolon's question Tony made a simple pair of assertions about what Chandler measured. With the slight risk of wrong implication as to what "it" referred to.
Are you thinking of femr2's multiple point critique ? ...and what he was not saying in the brief post. |
2nd December 2015, 08:18 AM | #295 |
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It is unclear what you are commenting on.
Tony made a simple statement - two assertions - in response to Gamolon. 1) Chandler's graph starts BEFORE the detected motion; AND 2) "Once the building is moving in his measurement it is in free fall right from the start." The first IMO needed no comment. To the second I responded "True enough at the level of accuracy of D Chandler's methods." Other posts go way beyond what Tony said in his post. If you want to re-open the whole debate better say so. |
2nd December 2015, 08:19 AM | #296 |
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Why do you ignore the magic required to validate your own belief?
A snapped column results in the immediate removal of gravitational resistance. WTC 7 had 58 perimeter columns and 25 core columns. Freefall as observed in the video record showed the NE corner dropping in sync with the SW and NW corners. 83 columns do not ’snap’ at the same time unless they all face an overwhelming lateral force at the same time. There is nothing desperate about arguing that CD was the cause. It is the only logical explanation. What is truly desperate is the belief in magic required to accept that a combination of roaming office cubicle fires and the buckling of a single column lead to the immediate failure of the 82 other columns. |
2nd December 2015, 08:31 AM | #297 |
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2nd December 2015, 08:32 AM | #298 |
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2nd December 2015, 08:41 AM | #299 |
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2nd December 2015, 08:42 AM | #300 |
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2nd December 2015, 08:46 AM | #301 |
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2nd December 2015, 08:47 AM | #302 |
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If you take a look at the "columns" below the perimeter moment frame from the ground to floor 8... you will see that there is nothing like 58 columns supporting the moment frame. Of the 58 columns above floor 8 only 21 of them were DIRECTLY coupled to the foundation. Half of the north side columns were supported on the end of cantilevers... the east and west sides were supported on "braced frames" (sloping columns) All of the support below floor 8 collapsed or folded inward leaving the moment frame from floor 8 with nothing to support it. LOOK at the Cantor plans before you make such statements which are incorrect and deceptive. |
2nd December 2015, 08:47 AM | #303 |
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Immediate?? What video were you watching? That just did not happen!
I note you also ignore, as is the common theme in truther circles, the kink in the north face and the draw down of the entire north face along that line BEFORE the corners of the building begin moving. Can you envision the stresses on the structure that this vertical failure along the kink put on the rest of the structure? |
2nd December 2015, 08:48 AM | #304 |
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Oh, well played, that man! Beautifully done - mention that three of the columns fell at the same time, imply that means that all 83 fell in perfect synchronisation, and neatly avoid mentioning (a) the clearly visible kink in the middle of the North face that made it painfully obvious that the perimeter columns failed in sequential lateral progression from the middle outwards, exactly as would be expected from a cascading sequence of overload failures, load redistributions to the next column across, and so on outwards, and (b) the fact that the core columns had equally obviously already collapsed several seconds before the façade began to fall. Cherry picking and lying by implication at its finest; propagandists the whole world over must be very proud of you.
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2nd December 2015, 08:50 AM | #305 |
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2nd December 2015, 08:52 AM | #306 |
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2nd December 2015, 08:54 AM | #307 |
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JSO, isn't there a side view plan of the north face somewhere that shows the overhang at the 8th floor?
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2nd December 2015, 09:03 AM | #308 |
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2nd December 2015, 09:04 AM | #309 |
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83 columns, 8 storeys, and a modest estimate of 2 cutter charges per 'cut'. That's around 1300 separate charges in a very conservative* CD scenario. Do you really believe that happened? 1300 simultaneous detonations went unheard?
Why would the columns all have to fail simultaneously? There's strong evidence (the early fall of the east mechanical penthouse, for example) that the core was collapsing progressively before so-called 'global collapse' was observed. *eta: More realistically, you'd need to cut the columns top and bottom to prevent a single-cut column remaining in position, and would probably add a kicker charge to knock it out of the way once cut. Now we're looking at ~3,000 separate charges, many of them necessarily in plain view. And all this neglects the fact that "I" columns have the web cut in advance, as the cutter charges won't penetrate deep enough to take that out. Add to that that at a single location cutter charges may require a pair for each flange and we're up to the region of 6,000 charges. The whole concept is insane. |
2nd December 2015, 10:09 AM | #310 |
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2nd December 2015, 11:25 AM | #311 |
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It's the age old ignorant guess that the number of columns in a building is supposed to be sole absolute in the stability of the building; assuming load redistribution is necessarily even and consistent. This is one fatal weakness
#2 Freefall acceleration happens after initiation and cannot self diagnose the mechanism that started it. |
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2nd December 2015, 12:26 PM | #312 |
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So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts. |
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2nd December 2015, 02:03 PM | #313 |
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2nd December 2015, 02:15 PM | #314 |
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As an engineer I would think you would be more accurate in your wording then this. The building started coming down around 6 seconds before he started recording. Maybe you should say from the time you like to fixate on?
The whole graph is useless. It only covers the least important aspect of the collapse. Everything important is already over before it starts. |
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2nd December 2015, 02:17 PM | #315 |
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Regardless of what was happening out of sight, we could definitely see what was happening to the WTC7’s shell.
  What is insane GlennB is the idea that random fire activity could accomplish such a fantastic feat of demolition engineering. What credible mechanism outside of CD could cause the synchronous failure at freefall at the observed NE, NW and SW corners? At best, any other failure mechanism would have inherent delays which would cause a major topple or a dramatic gradually distorted building failure. We can see the roofline dropping at freefall for those three corners, so all the perimeter columns at, and between those points, must have been removed at the same time and for a height of eight storeys. |
2nd December 2015, 02:20 PM | #316 |
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2nd December 2015, 02:25 PM | #317 |
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There was a 'major topple', as I suspect you well know. Inertia, inevitably for such a mass, delayed its onset.
But I see you don't want to address the issue of the totally synchronised yet silent detonation of thousands of explosive charges. Nor the early fall of the E penthouse, nor the fact that internal collapse preceding "global collapse" has other strong evidence in its favour. Horse ... water. If you're still here - can you explain how a paint-thin layer of thermitic material might damage WTC structural steel? |
2nd December 2015, 02:37 PM | #318 |
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In other words you continue to argue based on your lack of building construction and design knowledge and rationalize CD as the only workable cause because you havent made any attempt -whatever the reason- to understand just how a building functions from a structural standpoint. Thats basically what your argument boils down to
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2nd December 2015, 02:47 PM | #319 |
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2nd December 2015, 02:54 PM | #320 |
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That picture of the kink in the face from Criteria is actually superb evidence of a sequential lateral cascade failure. I can only presume he's not intelligent enough to understand his own evidence.
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