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22nd December 2005, 08:51 PM | #41 |
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22nd December 2005, 08:52 PM | #42 |
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22nd December 2005, 08:55 PM | #43 |
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22nd December 2005, 08:58 PM | #44 |
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22nd December 2005, 08:58 PM | #45 |
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'love',
Before you go any further, I'm going to politely suggest that all of your suggestions may require you to consider looking at the million dollar challenge page, so you can take a more proactive step about your beliefs and maybe make a difference in the way your homeopathy and other suggestions are viewed by putting it up to the test. Do that. I'm willing to cheer you on for taking that step. Anything else that you may seem to think is so 'helpful' in terms of addressing Fowlsound's condition is going to cause you more grief than you probably deserve. Although I'm certain there's some people who would probably think otherwise about how much grief you deserve and I can well envision their reasoning for doing so. Move away from this one. Seriously. |
22nd December 2005, 09:00 PM | #46 |
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Oh - you seem to have trouble understanding the word 'placebo':
pla·ce·bo 1 a) A substance containing no medication and prescribed or given to reinforce a patient's expectation to get well. b) An inactive substance or preparation used as a control in an experiment or test to determine the effectiveness of a medicinal drug. 2. Something of no intrinsic remedial value that is used to appease or reassure another. From dictionary.com. I particularly noticed 'definition 2'... (edited to clarify what definition I was refering to) |
22nd December 2005, 09:00 PM | #47 |
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22nd December 2005, 09:02 PM | #48 |
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22nd December 2005, 09:02 PM | #49 |
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All the steps: like finding an expert team of oncologists, nurses, home care workers, rehab specialists, psychologists ets.
Having surgery/radiation/chemo as per the best standards of evidence-based medicine. Obtaining the best symptom control available. Managing stress and trying to maintain some sense of sanity in the midst of all the chaos. Finally, waiting to hear the fabulous "all clear" from your health care workers Yup...imagine it and then do it...sound advice, but somehow I think I may have misunderstood you. |
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22nd December 2005, 09:03 PM | #50 |
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22nd December 2005, 09:04 PM | #51 |
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Love...let me echo Kiless. Walk away from this one. You are not merely wrong, but in this context you are offensively so. Start another thread on placebos if you like, I would be happy to join in there.
The whole point of a double blind study is to show the effectiveness of a treatment over and above placebo. FowlSound's treatments are, quite simple, a hell of a lot more effective than a thousand placebos. |
22nd December 2005, 09:07 PM | #52 |
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How about you start a generic thread about homeopathy somewhere else, 'love'. That may be better. Then you can perhaps propose a general statement, only about a paragraph, so people can talk generally about the topic.
And of course, check out here: http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html You might like to start reading some threads in the challenge forum about how people have thought about proposing homeopathy for the challenge. |
22nd December 2005, 09:14 PM | #53 |
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Nor did she closely examine the x-rays of the spine, somehow I am not quite sure how a placebo would work on that kind of physical damage.
I would like to formally apologize for sending "love" over to this thread. I sincerely thought she/he would get a clue. But I was so terribly wrong. I am so sorry, and it seems she/he has absolutely no idea how hurtful her/his cluelessness is ... and now I am moving away from this one. sorry |
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22nd December 2005, 11:13 PM | #54 | ||
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22nd December 2005, 11:13 PM | #55 |
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If my posts are going to be removed, at least PM me and let me know.
Thanks. ETA: Oh,sorry Kiless....apparently I walked in at the middle of the process....my apologies. |
22nd December 2005, 11:39 PM | #56 |
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23rd December 2005, 12:28 AM | #57 | ||
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23rd December 2005, 12:58 AM | #58 |
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23rd December 2005, 03:11 AM | #59 |
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I'm much more concerned about this new lesion in Fowlsound's arm. Where abouts in the arm, Fowlsound? How extensive? Do you know for sure it's myeloma again?
Rolfe. |
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23rd December 2005, 03:16 AM | #60 |
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If it were me, I'd be trying some of the more harmless alternative methods as well. Just in case. I can't see the harm in the imagination exercises.
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23rd December 2005, 03:27 AM | #61 |
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Other than a Waste Of Money, Brains And Time?
No, there are better things to do with one's time and imagination. Like, say, sorting your pennies by date. Or, hey, I have a good one! Dream up a fanastic date with your S/O...then spend the money making it come true! Nyah...it'd never work. |
23rd December 2005, 05:24 AM | #62 |
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I can. They can become an obsession, and if the patient buys into the creed that the only reason this might not work is that you didn't try hard enough, a very destructive obsession.
Homoeopathic remedies are harmless too. Would you suggest he take these, for that reason? Rolfe. |
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23rd December 2005, 05:44 AM | #63 |
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If I had cancer? Possibly.
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23rd December 2005, 05:48 AM | #64 |
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Why?
Rolfe. |
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23rd December 2005, 05:54 AM | #65 |
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I didn't say I would I said I might. Hard to say what I might do if I had a potentially terminal illness. I can’t confidently state that I wouldn’t.
The imaginative exercises might work in some sense – nobody can really say that developing a positive attitude etc cannot have any effect on one’s immune system or merely one’s ability to cope or something else not thought of just yet. Re: Homeopathy – this is probably the least likely thing I’d dtry but might be worth trying re: the placebo effect. It does appear to be quite a good placebo. Given that terminal illness is your last shot I cannot rule out the possibility that I'd take the view that anything is worth trying as long as it doesn’t do any harm. |
23rd December 2005, 05:57 AM | #66 |
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23rd December 2005, 06:06 AM | #67 |
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Splossy, if I told you that nailing a dead chicken you your door was a great cancer therapy, and why not, it can't do any harm, would you try it?
Do you seriously think "placebo" is somethnig that can influence the course of a physical (as opposed to psychological) illness? Rolfe. |
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23rd December 2005, 06:06 AM | #68 |
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"Do you seriously think "placebo" is somethnig that can influence the course of a physical (as opposed to psychological) illness?"
Yes. Of course. |
23rd December 2005, 06:13 AM | #69 |
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No. In double-blind studies, the term "placebo effect" covers anything that is not due to the drug under test. That means natural remission, lifestyle changes, reporting bias, self-delusion, etc. etc. In other words, a long range of factors that may make patients better or worse, but are not due to the specific effect of the drug, but due to the overall situation of the patients.
The "real" placebo effect, that is, patients actually, objectively, improving due to feeling reassured by treatment has some merit for various complaints with a psychological factor. There is not, to my knowledge, any reliable data supporting the notion that this kind of placebo effect has any influence on physical pathology, however. "Positive thinking" therapy was tried on a large scale for cancer treatment during the eighties (together with conventional treatment), but while it did improve the percieved quality of life for many patients, there was no objective improvement in the outcome for these patients, compared to patients that were only given conventional treatment. Hans |
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23rd December 2005, 06:18 AM | #70 |
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I can only see the harm if
A) you did this instead of real medicine. Since you say "as well", this is not the case. The problem is, there are faith healers and frauds out there who will encourage you to give up the Western medicine and follow theirs. My cynical side thinks that if you spontaneously recover, they take credit, and if you die, it makes it tough for you to complain. B) you do not have the time or money for such things. Medical care can take a long time and huge amounts of money. When my office-mate died of ovarian cancer, she did try alternative things as well as chemo and radiation and surgery. There was no end to the "advice" people gave her (drink everything from a blue glass, that will work). There could not have been enough time for all. And look for "John of God" threads--people will interrupt treatment to go see a faith healer. |
23rd December 2005, 06:20 AM | #71 |
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You don't actually know that to be the case.
This from Skepdic: "There are too many studies which have found objective improvements in health from placebos to support the notion that the placebo effect is entirely psychological. Doctors in one study successfully eliminated warts by painting them with a brightly colored, inert dye and promising patients the warts would be gone when the color wore off. In a study of asthmatics, researchers found that they could produce dilation of the airways by simply telling people they were inhaling a bronchiodilator, even when they weren't. Patients suffering pain after wisdom-tooth extraction got just as much relief from a fake application of ultrasound as from a real one, so long as both patient and therapist thought the machine was on. Fifty-two percent of the colitis patients treated with placebo in 11 different trials reported feeling better -- and 50 percent of the inflamed intestines actually looked better when assessed with a sigmoidoscope" There are other parts of the article that probably contradict it. But it's clear there might well be a physical side to it. |
23rd December 2005, 06:23 AM | #72 |
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23rd December 2005, 06:51 AM | #73 |
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23rd December 2005, 08:10 AM | #74 |
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You have to also look at the harm that placebo and 'alternative therapies' can cause.
My father believes in the evils of 'big pharma', has a subscription to Kevin Trudeau's website (much to my chagrin), etc. He was diagnosed about a year ago with prostate cancer. Instead of going straight for medical treatment, he decided to try herbal remedies in hopes that the prostate would shrink, and possibly be cured of cancer without resorting to mainstream science. He thought it was working for him, so wasn't as concerned to go for a follow up appointment. Needless to say, by the time he did go for a follow up, the prostate was almost unmanagable. He finally had the surgery a few days ago, which was touch and go due to size and the loss of blood. The placebo effect can have positive effects, but foregoing medical treatment while hoping that a placebo will have a positive effect is a huge gamble. Certainly not one that I'm willing to take. And that's why those who sell placebos as a valid alternative to mainstream medicine are no better than common criminals; While they're lining their pockets, people who trust in the placebo effect die. |
23rd December 2005, 08:36 AM | #75 |
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Its more than that, Ive seen SCAMers deliberately targetign the terminally ill, they're content selling false hope to people who are incredibly emotionally vulnerable, and more often than not in extremely difficult financial circumstances (being seriously ill costs you serious amounts of money, even if you do have state funded medicine).
The guilt trips these people will pull on patients and their families are incredible, when a family member is facing death, the urge to do anything, and spend any amount in the vain hope that it may help them is almost overwhelming. Some people look at this situation and see Ł signs. These people deserve their own circle of hell, just above the sociopaths that do the same, but try and convince the patient to give up effective treatment in favour of their snake oil, and will even try and convince the patient that the Drs who are working hard to save their life, are actually making them ill! I would rather the SCAMers where out mugging people on the street than targeting the oncology wards, they are much less likely to kill someone that way, and each victim will probably loose less, both emotionally and materially. |
23rd December 2005, 08:42 AM | #76 |
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Just in case anyone missed this.
Placebo is one of two things. An inactive pill given to "placate" the patient, to make then think the doc is doing something for them, or a similarly inactive pill given to the control group in a drug trial. There can be so much going on with coincidental improvement, wishful thinking and so on, that such controls are necessary to separate out the effect of the real pharmaceutical from what would have happened anyway. The "placebo" doesn't actually do anything, apart from possibly making the patient les anxious. Nailing a dead chicken to your door is a well-known cancer cure. You owe it to yourself to try it! Rolfe. |
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23rd December 2005, 09:10 AM | #77 |
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Very sorry I haven't chimed in before, fowlsound, and even more sorry for the troubles you have faced and continue to face.
Great paper. I'm keeping it to hand give to some folks at appropriate times. Well done. Thanks. Get better. |
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23rd December 2005, 10:23 AM | #78 |
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Fortunately, love, we have better ways than "viewpoints" and "anger" and to determine the truth of these matters. There is no "viewpoint" involved with regard to scientific truth.
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[quote]No, I'm just kind of curious, because my experience is so different to yours.[/.quote] Its a great thing that science isn't based on people's experience, because, you see, nobody else can corroborate or refute your self-reports. We can simply say the placebo didn't help you one wit. We can further more say, with confidence, that the various snake oils you applied were also a total waste of both your time and effort. Period, love.
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23rd December 2005, 10:23 AM | #79 |
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23rd December 2005, 10:46 AM | #80 |
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Thanks folks! I now have the objective answer to that age old question: For love or money? Looks like Money is the only rational choice available! Fight hard FowlSound...you are a fine example of the courage necessary to adhere to rationality in the face of mortality. Carl Sagan is one of my heros; but not just because of the way he lived; the way he faced death was even more impressive. You OTOH are expected at TAM5. No excuses man. -z |
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