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Old 12th January 2020, 09:51 AM   #2401
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's almost like you didn't read the article..
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Old 14th January 2020, 10:37 PM   #2402
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He cant stop lying about Brexit

The Guardian: Boris Johnson's Big Ben Brexit bong plan falls flat
The Guardian: Boris Johnson's Big Ben Brexit bong plan falls flat.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...lan-falls-flat
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Old 14th January 2020, 11:42 PM   #2403
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
He cant stop lying about Brexit

The Guardian: Boris Johnson's Big Ben Brexit bong plan falls flat
The Guardian: Boris Johnson's Big Ben Brexit bong plan falls flat.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...lan-falls-flat
A plan for a purely symbolic act that would disrupt an actual beneficial program taking place, benefit only a few people in and around Westminster, and never had a real underlying mechanism to bring it into reality.

I will say, you Brits do have a knack for well-constructed metaphors.
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Old 15th January 2020, 01:04 AM   #2404
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R4 today- Boris told to align with Trump's Iran nuclear policy if he wants a good UK/US trade deal. Brexit or JoinUS?
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Old 15th January 2020, 01:08 AM   #2405
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
He cant stop lying about Brexit

The Guardian: Boris Johnson's Big Ben Brexit bong plan falls flat
The Guardian: Boris Johnson's Big Ben Brexit bong plan falls flat.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...lan-falls-flat

Perhaps making it go “DUNG” instead would be cheaper, and also more appropriate.
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Old 15th January 2020, 01:31 AM   #2406
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
R4 today- Boris told to align with Trump's Iran nuclear policy if he wants a good UK/US trade deal. Brexit or JoinUS?
As I understand it, that's exactly the kind of thing that the architects of Brexit want, a low tax low regulation where they are free to add to their billions with no regard for the societal, human or ecological costs. Donald Trump's USA provides an excellent template for how to achieve it and the money to be made flogging off the NHS and the UK's remaining "crown jewels" is just the cherry on top.

We're swapping a situation where 50% of our international trade is covered by a free trade agreement in which we're a party with a lot of influence to a situation where we have somewhat free trade with a party who represents around 15% of our trade and where we have little or no influence on the terms. Sounds like the case for Brexit in a nutshell to me

Lest anyone forget, Donald Trump is offering a very asymmetrical trade deal where the objective is to greatly increase exports of US goods to the UK whilst constraining UK exports to the US at today's (or lower) levels.
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Old 15th January 2020, 03:52 AM   #2407
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Trump had openly started he only wants trade deals that benefit the USA.
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Old 15th January 2020, 05:10 AM   #2408
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Trump had openly started he only wants trade deals that benefit the USA.
And rightly so. That's what the rest of the world will be like too. If only we were a member of a large trading block that has the economic muscle to guarantee better trade agreements.
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Old 15th January 2020, 05:40 AM   #2409
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
And rightly so. That's what the rest of the world will be like too. If only we were a member of a large trading block that has the economic muscle to guarantee better trade agreements.
Perhaps we should look at joining such a trading block.....

We could have a referendum to see if people want to join such a group.
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Old 15th January 2020, 05:59 AM   #2410
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Trump had openly started he only wants trade deals that benefit the USA.

Trump only considers a deal to be ‘good’ if the other guy loses.
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Old 15th January 2020, 06:10 AM   #2411
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Trump had openly started he only wants trade deals that benefit the USA.
Just like the EU only wanting trade deals that benefit the EU.

It was always thus. The trick to negotiating trade deals is to find the things that benefit both sides.
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Old 15th January 2020, 06:16 AM   #2412
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Just like the EU only wanting trade deals that benefit the EU.

It was always thus. The trick to negotiating trade deals is to find the things that benefit both sides.
...and that tends to happen when the two parties are negotiating as equals.

In a trade negotiation between the EU and the US that's the case - which is why the US isn't particularly happy with the deal they got - it wasn't all their way. OTOH they're licking their lips at the prospect of UK/US trade negotiations, they know it'll turn out heavily in their favour.
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Old 15th January 2020, 06:20 AM   #2413
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
...and that tends to happen when the two parties are negotiating as equals.



In a trade negotiation between the EU and the US that's the case - which is why the US isn't particularly happy with the deal they got - it wasn't all their way. OTOH they're licking their lips at the prospect of UK/US trade negotiations, they know it'll turn out heavily in their favour.
At least it will be a quick and simple agreement to get in place.

All we'll have to negotiate is how high we have to jump...
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Old 15th January 2020, 06:22 AM   #2414
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If you think a trade deal between different sized countries is harmful to the smaller country, why do you think the smaller country would ever sign up to such a deal? If the deal is worse than no deal for either side, then it's obvious that the deal will never be signed.

A trade deal will only ever be completed when both sides agree that it benefits both sides.

Last edited by ceptimus; 15th January 2020 at 06:24 AM.
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Old 15th January 2020, 06:37 AM   #2415
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If you think a trade deal between different sized countries is harmful to the smaller country, why do you think the smaller country would ever sign up to such a deal? If the deal is worse than no deal for either side, then it's obvious that the deal will never be signed.

A trade deal will only ever be completed when both sides agree that it benefits both sides.
That isn't what people are saying ceptimus.
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Old 15th January 2020, 06:39 AM   #2416
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That isn't what people are saying ceptimus.
So you think the UK will willingly sign up to a deal that is worse for the UK than no deal?
Why on earth would they do that? It makes no sense whatsoever, regardless of what "people are saying."

Who are these "people"? Perhaps they're the usual biased remain fanatics?

Last edited by ceptimus; 15th January 2020 at 06:42 AM.
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Old 15th January 2020, 06:42 AM   #2417
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If you think a trade deal between different sized countries is harmful to the smaller country, why do you think the smaller country would ever sign up to such a deal? If the deal is worse than no deal for either side, then it's obvious that the deal will never be signed.

A trade deal will only ever be completed when both sides agree that it benefits both sides.
"The NHS will only ever be sold off piecemeal if it benefits the British people"

Possibly true, but if we define 'the British people' in a certain way then elements of the NHS will certainly be privatised. Possibly, in time, all of it.

So, what is your definition of 'British people' in your statement above?
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Old 15th January 2020, 06:44 AM   #2418
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
"The NHS will only ever be sold off piecemeal if it benefits the British people"

Possibly true, but if we define 'the British people' in a certain way then elements of the NHS will certainly be privatised. Possibly, in time, all of it.

So, what is your definition of 'British people' in your statement above?
Why do I need to define 'British people' for you, when I never mentioned 'British people' in the first place? Where does your 'British people' thing come from, and why are you appending it to a post of mine that you're quoting?

Last edited by ceptimus; 15th January 2020 at 06:45 AM.
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Old 15th January 2020, 06:46 AM   #2419
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If you think a trade deal between different sized countries is harmful to the smaller country, why do you think the smaller country would ever sign up to such a deal? If the deal is worse than no deal for either side, then it's obvious that the deal will never be signed.

A trade deal will only ever be completed when both sides agree that it benefits both sides.
It depends on what you mean by benefits I suppose.

A deal could be very one sided but just marginally better than no deal at all for the party getting the worse on the deal.

A deal could be contingent on other factors which means that it may be worse than no deal at all but. For example, a country could agree to a very disadvantageous trade deal in order to try to secure diplomatic and/or military support (which may or may not eventually be forthcoming).

A deal may not benefit the country, but instead may just benefit those in charge of the country. For a "banana republic" it may mean that the Generalissimo pockets a few billion dollars while the populace starves. For the UK it could mean that Boris Johnson and Conservative Party get to trumpet a "great US trade deal" while the country at large actually pays the price.
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Old 15th January 2020, 07:04 AM   #2420
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Why do I need to define 'British people' for you, when I never mentioned 'British people' in the first place? Where does your 'British people' thing come from, and why are you appending it to a post of mine that you're quoting?
My mistake. You said 'both sides', so what would be the UK 'side' in a deal with the US? The whole country or perhaps not all of it?
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Old 15th January 2020, 07:14 AM   #2421
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If you think a trade deal between different sized countries is harmful to the smaller country, why do you think the smaller country would ever sign up to such a deal? If the deal is worse than no deal for either side, then it's obvious that the deal will never be signed.

A trade deal will only ever be completed when both sides agree that it benefits both sides.
Yes but the extent it benefits both sides is the key question.
We were told that looking at all our trade deals we would be better off. We would retain the great free trade deal we have with the EU without having to contribute and we would get better trade deals with the rest of the world.

Once transition is over we will no longer benefit from the EU's trade agreements and we will see how many of the new deals are better than the ones the EU has and to be blunt whether we get access to more markets and make more exports than we give away access to ours and get more imports.
For UK plc, the economy and jobs we want to post Brexit to have s better balance of trade.
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Old 15th January 2020, 07:29 AM   #2422
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
So you think the UK will willingly sign up to a deal that is worse for the UK than no deal?
Why on earth would they do that? It makes no sense whatsoever, regardless of what "people are saying."

Who are these "people"? Perhaps they're the usual biased remain fanatics?
Again that is not what anyone in this thread has said.
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Old 15th January 2020, 07:33 AM   #2423
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Again that is not what anyone in this thread has said.

Click here.
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Old 15th January 2020, 08:00 AM   #2424
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Trump had openly started he only wants trade deals that benefit the USA.
And yet the blind majority of Brexiteers don't seem to notice...
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Old 15th January 2020, 08:01 AM   #2425
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Just like the EU only wanting trade deals that benefit the EU.

It was always thus. The trick to negotiating trade deals is to find the things that benefit both sides.
And now the UK will be screwed by both.
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Old 15th January 2020, 08:03 AM   #2426
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If you think a trade deal between different sized countries is harmful to the smaller country, why do you think the smaller country would ever sign up to such a deal? I
Desperation? Stupidity? You know, Brexiteer things...
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Old 15th January 2020, 08:18 AM   #2427
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Because, contrary to Brexiter slogans a year ago, a bad deal is better than no deal in many cases.
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Old 15th January 2020, 09:08 AM   #2428
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
So you think the UK will willingly sign up to a deal that is worse for the UK than no deal?
We wouldn't. But do you honestly think we can get any deal that's as good as the EU deal we enjoy now?
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Old 15th January 2020, 09:20 AM   #2429
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
We wouldn't. But do you honestly think we can get any deal that's as good as the EU deal we enjoy now?
To be fair the EU trades with the US on pretty poor terms. We may well be able to increase our sales to the US by negotiating a new trade deal. That may lead to more UK jobs.
The question is whether the cost of that access would be the loss of british jobs by allowing US suppliers into our markets.

There is also the cost of lost UK jobs by no longer having easy access to the EU markets and it's trade deals. That in turn may create oppertunities for a UK supplier to replace an EU one. We have managed to roll over some of the smaller EU trade deals but have yet to improve on any of them.

Overall there will be swings and roundabouts. The general consensus is that the UK will be worse off. While some industries may do better others will struggle and it will take 50 years for us to recover.
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Old 15th January 2020, 10:50 AM   #2430
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
We wouldn't. But do you honestly think we can get any deal that's as good as the EU deal we enjoy now?
Of course I I don't expect a trade deal between the UK and the EU to be as "good" or as comprehensive as being inside the EU - the EU is determined that cannot be the case lest they see the rapid departure of other EU member countries. But you have to factor in the cost to the UK of being in the EU - when the net payments by the UK to the EU (the cost of membership) are taken into account, then the existing "free" deal is nowhere near free.

And you have to consider that being in the EU means the UK has to pay EU prices for things like fruit that could be purchased more cheaply on the open world market. The EU imposes tariffs on the imports of fruit to protect Spanish, Greek, and Italian farmers who can't compete with other non-EU countries for cost of production.

What is the existing trade deal between the USA and the EU and when was it implemented?

Last edited by ceptimus; 15th January 2020 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 15th January 2020, 11:27 AM   #2431
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Of course I I don't expect a trade deal between the UK and the EU to be as "good" or as comprehensive as being inside the EU
You misunderstand. What I'm asking is do you expect a deal the UK can forge with the USA to be as good as the one the EU has with the USA, and the UK currently enjoys because it is part of the EU?
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Old 15th January 2020, 11:33 AM   #2432
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
You misunderstand. What I'm asking is do you expect a deal the UK can forge with the USA to be as good as the one the EU has with the USA, and the UK currently enjoys because it is part of the EU?
Please provide a link for an article that describes the existing trade deal between the EU and USA, and says when it was implemented.

Last edited by ceptimus; 15th January 2020 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 15th January 2020, 11:53 AM   #2433
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
A trade deal will only ever be completed when both sides agree that it benefits both sides.
In Trump's zero-sum world, no such thing exists. There can only be winners and losers.
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Old 15th January 2020, 12:12 PM   #2434
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Please provide a link for an article that describes the existing trade deal between the EU and USA, and says when it was implemented.
Don't know why you can't Google but there are a number of trade agreements that the US and EU have signed up to. Some involve only the EU and US others include other nations as well.

EU–US Open Skies Agreement 2007
Transatlantic Economic Council 2007
Roadmap Transatlantic Cooperation eHealth IT 2010
Agreement on mutual acceptance of results of conformity assessment 2018
WTO 1995
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Old 15th January 2020, 12:17 PM   #2435
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ays-trump-ally
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Old 15th January 2020, 12:19 PM   #2436
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Please provide a link for an article that describes the existing trade deal between the EU and USA, and says when it was implemented.

You’ve been supporting Brexit all this time without knowing what the current situation is?
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Old 15th January 2020, 12:47 PM   #2437
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Originally Posted by Mojo
You’ve been supporting Brexit all this time without knowing what the current situation is?

I know exactly what it is. I was attempting to get Ian Osborne to do some research and realize that the USA and EU don't currently have a comprehensive "trade agreement". Like many remainers he assumed that the EU already has a wonderful trade deal with the USA which the UK could never expect to equal by itself. The reverse is the truth. The EU has no comprehensive trade agreement with the USA, and the UK, once freed from the EU, can expect to do at least as well, and probably much better.

Last edited by ceptimus; 15th January 2020 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 15th January 2020, 12:54 PM   #2438
Mojo
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I know exactly what it is. I was attempting to get Ian Osborne to do some research and realize that the USA and EU don't currently have a comprehensive "trade agreement". Like many remainers he assumed that the EU already has a wonderful trade deal with the USA which the UK could never expect to equal by itself. The reverse is the truth. The EU has no comprehensive trade agreement with the USA, and the UK, once freed from the EU, can expect to do at least as well, and probably much better.

As long as we do what we’re told?
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Old 15th January 2020, 01:42 PM   #2439
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I know exactly what it is. I was attempting to get Ian Osborne to do some research and realize that the USA and EU don't currently have a comprehensive "trade agreement". Like many remainers he assumed that the EU already has a wonderful trade deal with the USA which the UK could never expect to equal by itself. The reverse is the truth. The EU has no comprehensive trade agreement with the USA, and the UK, once freed from the EU, can expect to do at least as well, and probably much better.
It is you that needs to do research.
The EU and the US do have a comprehensive trade agreement. Which goods or services do you think are not currently covered by a current EU US trade agreement?
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Old 15th January 2020, 01:46 PM   #2440
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
It is you that needs to do research.
The EU and the US do have a comprehensive trade agreement. Which goods or services do you think are not currently covered by a current EU US trade agreement?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12955224
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