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#2641 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 12,459
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How so? The same rules apply to chicken produced in the EU and US producers can sell to the EU simply by conforming to EU product standards.
It’s not farmers that take issue with the practice, it's consumers. Consumers object because it’s used as a substitute for cleanliness in processing and raising the animals. The only thing dipping in chlorine accomplishes is to sterilize any chicken excrement that is still on the bird, so eating it won’t make people sick. The excrement is still there and people still end up eating it. EU standards are structured to ensure that the excrement isn’t there in the first place so ensuring it’s sterilized and eating it won't make people sick is moot. |
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"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen" |
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#2642 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 34,692
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Apparently the UK will seek a "Canada style deal" with the EU.
So we'd be outside a customs union and relying on unicorn-fuelled technology to reduce the administrative overhead. In particular the EU would want to ensure that the UK isn't a back-door into the EU. Any technological solution would be very expensive and take years to implement (not least because the technology doesn't exist). Canadian companies exporting to the EU have to prove that their products conform to EU standards. Under a Canadian-style deal, UK companies would have to do the same - an expensive and time consuming process. The Canadian deal does not include services, 80% of the UK economy and a sector which has a significant trade surplus with the EU. It specifically does not include financial passporting, something that is very important to the financial services sector. Now any and all of this could be negotiated in a mutually beneficial way. The problem is that a bespoke trade deal is going to take orders of magnitude longer to negotiate than an "off the shelf one". Even if the UK was able to take the Canada deal, the UK's physical proximity to the EU may mean that there will be issues. One major reason for a Canada deal is so that the UK can immediately agree a catastrophic deal with the US ![]() |
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#2643 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,774
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"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills |
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#2644 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 51,959
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In principle they can, but a lot of US producers are already set up to use pathogen reduction treatment (PRT) washing, and to switch over to a different process would cost them a lot of money.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#2646 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 51,959
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#2648 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 12,459
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Chlorine allows wash and animal care standards to be lower, which is why the chicken is cheaper. It costs more but you can (and the EU does) get comparable food safety with higher standards for cleaning and require the birds to be kept in cleaner conditions.
Are consumers are fine with traces of excrement in their chicken or if they would prefer to pay a little more and have no excrement whatsoever. Either one may work from a safety perspective but consumers in the UK have come down firmly on the side of chicken with “no excrement whatsoever”. So much so that the prospect of importing chicken processed under US standards is a significant political issue in the UK. It’s viewed as a major drop in product standards to the point where Brexit proponents promised that the chlorine dipped alternative would never be allowed. |
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"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen" |
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#2649 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 12,459
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Currently UK follows EU standards, so enforcing UK standards guarantees EU standards are met. The UK plans to end it's harmonization with EU standards.
This means going forward in addition to enforcing it’s own standards, the UK will require a separate process for products being exported to the EU similar to other non-EU countries like Canada. |
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"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen" |
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#2650 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 51,959
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What is likely to happen is that they will simply use one process that adheres to the higher standard, like car makers build to the California emission standard now even for states which don't require it. If the EU standard is higher, then that is no more expensive and time consuming than it would be by remaining. If the UK standard is higher, well, any extra expense will be something the UK will have decided is worth it to get that higher standard.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#2651 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 51,959
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I don't actually believe this is the real motivation. If that were the real concern, all you'd need to do is have labeling requirements. People who didn't want the US-style processing could avoid it, people who wanted cheaper chicken could buy it. But labeling doesn't suffice if you're not just trying to avoid buying it yourself, but preventing other people from buying it.
And the people with the real incentive to prevent others from buying it are the producers, not consumers. That's why I think this is all a PR campaign driven by producers, even if they've managed to get popular support with appeals to emotion. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#2652 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 33,076
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Слава Україні! **** Putin! |
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#2653 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 26,762
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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#2654 |
puzzler
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,464
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There are plenty of food poisoning cases due to chicken in EU countries, and the USA regardless of the regulations.
Regulations are only any good if they're adhered to - and the person preparing and cooking the chicken also needs to follow recommended handling and cooking precautions. In no country is it safe to eat badly prepared or undercooked chicken. |
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#2655 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 55,963
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#2656 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 34,692
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Talking explicitly about products. Unless the UK explicitly adopts the EU standard (politically difficult because that would make us a "rule taker") then the product in question would have to be recertified for the EU regardless of whether the UK standard was higher, lower or equivalent. Certification is a time consuming and expensive process which may be worthwhile if you're doing millions of pounds worth of business but not if you're a smaller company trying to break into a market.
One of the supposed benefits of Brexit was an alleged reduction in red tape for business. The opposite seems to be the case for anyone dealing internationally. |
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#2657 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 29,407
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The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend |
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#2658 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 29,407
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According to BBC News Papers:
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The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend |
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#2659 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 29,407
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The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend |
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#2660 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 29,407
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The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend |
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#2661 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 103,203
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#2662 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 103,203
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#2663 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 103,203
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#2664 |
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wales
Posts: 28,254
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The guts have to be ripped out manually. Contamination of the carcass with gut contents is a given, so the outcome comes down to subsequent cleaning procedures in the factory and then cooking and handling procedures in the kitchen. Chlorine washing allows slacker factory procedures.
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"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut |
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#2665 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 29,407
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The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend |
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#2666 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,837
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Frankly I'm far more worried about the prospect of the USA attempting to limit the power of the NHS to negotiate drug prices as part of a deal than I am about chlorinated chicken or GMOs in the food chain. Trump has made it repeatedly clear he thinks US consumers are somehow subsidizing drug prices for places like the UK. Also given its an election year in the USA how much progress will there actually be on a trade deal?
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So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
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#2667 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 29,407
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The theme of today's papers seems to be:
'So here we are — celebrating the dawn of the new age.' Isn't the 'golden dawn' a far right euphemism...? New dawn my foot. More like darkness descends. |
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The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend |
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#2668 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 19,404
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#2669 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 7,437
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BJ's big Brexit speech: basically nothing about Brexit, and just about how amazing the future of the UK is looking in his hands. Finally after they have gotten through with leaving the EU, the UK can now start tackling the issues that really matter to real people (unlike Brexit). Issues like stagnant wages, underfunded healthcare, social exclusion and it just goes on and on...
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann |
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#2670 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 6,279
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#2671 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#2672 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#2673 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 103,203
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The Guardian: Johnson to impose full customs checks on goods from EU – report.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...from-eu-report Opps... |
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#2674 |
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wales
Posts: 28,254
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"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut |
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#2675 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 43,373
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What's the surprise?
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#2676 |
puzzler
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,464
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Talking tough to try to secure a good deal. Negotiation 101. Something Theresa May was never prepared to do, but something the EU has done throughout, and will continue to do.
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#2677 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,585
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Of course negotiation 101 works a lot better from a strong position, and the UK does not have that.
But sure, threaten to harm your economy a lot. I'm sure that will work better this time. |
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#2678 |
puzzler
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,464
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The alternative is to just agree to everything the other side wants.
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#2679 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,837
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Talking tough only works if you have leverage and credibility, Boris Johnson has neither.
Yes, which is pretty much what the UK is going to have to do in all its trade negotiations however much Little Englanders stamp their feet and demand special treatment. If the EU, which actually wants a reasonable deal, is playing hardball what do you think the USA and China are going to do? |
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So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
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#2680 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 34,692
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