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Old 15th November 2022, 06:51 PM   #121
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Sticks and stones..
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Old 15th November 2022, 06:54 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Sticks and stones..
Well thankfully that doesn't apply where I live. Hate speech crimes are prosecuted here, but not often as people are usually not that stupid.

And you would have noted earlier in this thread, swastikas are prohibited from display in Australia's two largest states.
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Old 15th November 2022, 06:57 PM   #123
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Quote:
..swastikas are prohibited from display in Australia's two largest states.
Sounds like you are on top of the social ills that so plague us all..

Keep plucking that low hanging fruit..
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Old 15th November 2022, 07:02 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Sounds like you are on top of the social ills that so plague us all..

Keep plucking that low hanging fruit..
You might want to run this type of thinking past a bunch of jews.
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Old 15th November 2022, 08:22 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
But isn't the problem there one of usage of an object? Three people purchase one genuine Nazi rally flag each. One puts it in his museum of European history. One makes it into a quilt for her guest bedroom. One puts it up at his next neo-Nazi rally. Same object, three different outcomes.
Funnily enough, if I had to judge those people I'd find quilt person to be the most concerning. What dark thoughts are going on in that person's brain to make them think that a rally flag would be perfect to turn into a quilt for guests.

Originally Posted by Dani View Post
That's a different thing, and yes, social taboos are shortcuts we create because I'm afraid there's no such thing as collective critical thinking, and as a society we tend to set the bar at the lowest common denominator, so that everyone gets it and the world is, let's say, easy to navigate for the less nuanced minds, but also for those who would be affected by the type of actions and behaviors we tend to censor.

Through social taboos, people aren't required to think why something is morally questionable, they just need to know it is a bad thing to do.

The tradeoff is that you tend to get knee-jerk reactions at the expense of the nuance and all that comes with it.
And what we're seeing here is a clash between social taboos, one that says that it's ok to buy and sell Nazi memorabilia and those that think that it's wrong to do so.
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Old 15th November 2022, 08:52 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
And what we're seeing here is a clash between social taboos, one that says that it's ok to buy and sell Nazi memorabilia and those that think that it's wrong to do so.
It could also be described as a clash between those who want to micro manage others and those who believe that we should mind our own business.
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Old 15th November 2022, 08:52 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Funnily enough, if I had to judge those people I'd find quilt person to be the most concerning. What dark thoughts are going on in that person's brain to make them think that a rally flag would be perfect to turn into a quilt for guests.
Perhaps she just wants to discourage long visits.
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Old 15th November 2022, 08:55 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If I enjoy building, painting and displaying miniature models of WW2 aircraft, should I avoid modelling the aircraft of the Luftwaffe?
I think context is a necessary element for judgment in this sort of thing. If a tour group of ISFers visits your gracious home and sees your bedroom ceiling is full of WWII airplanes from both sides we will conclude that you are a geek and into WWII. If however your bedroom ceiling is full of just German airplanes we may conclude you are a geek and into WWII and also possibly a Nazi sympathizer.
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Old 16th November 2022, 12:42 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Do you feel the same way about hate speech?
Hate speech causes harm to people
Owning a piece of ww2 memorabilia causes harm to no-one!
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Old 16th November 2022, 01:05 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Owning a piece of ww2 memorabilia causes harm to no-one!
If my family had suffered during the Holocaust I’m certain I would be harmed if I saw a swastika in your house. Which, again, is why it can’t be displayed in NSW and Victoria.
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Old 16th November 2022, 02:17 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You should be OK, so long as you make them inauthentic by not using any of the symbols of hate (so no swastikas on the vertical stabilizers those bf109s and bf110s).

Then you won't risk hurting anyone's feelings.
It's a real issue; very few kits of WW2 German aircraft include the swastika on the tail among the transfers[1], largely because doing so makes them illegal to display in Germany, so modellers have the choice of either making an inaccurate model or buying a sheet of swastikas. My preference is the latter, because building models and not including the swastika has something of the myth of the clean Wermacht about it, but I don't then display them where members of the public can see them.

With one exception; the group I'm in at the model railway club has built a layout set in the East End in 1940. Front and centre of the layout is the local synagogue, and at the moment, passing in front of it, is an RAF Queen Mary transporter carrying the shot down wreck of a Bf109, complete with swastika on the tail. I have yet to be told that it's pro-Nazi to portray the burned and blackened wreck of a Nazi plane passing by an undamaged synagogue, but I suspect it's only a matter of time.

Dave

[1] There are some workarounds; some kits include two transfers that, when applied together, make up a swastika.
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Old 16th November 2022, 02:26 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
With one exception; the group I'm in at the model railway club has built a layout set in the East End in 1940. Front and centre of the layout is the local synagogue, and at the moment, passing in front of it, is an RAF Queen Mary transporter carrying the shot down wreck of a Bf109, complete with swastika on the tail. I have yet to be told that it's pro-Nazi to portray the burned and blackened wreck of a Nazi plane passing by an undamaged synagogue, but I suspect it's only a matter of time.
I do see some symbolism present in that set up.
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Old 16th November 2022, 02:59 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
If my family had suffered during the Holocaust I’m certain I would be harmed if I saw a swastika in your house. Which, again, is why it can’t be displayed in NSW and Victoria.

On the tail of a model of an authentic bf 109? I mean seriously?
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Old 16th November 2022, 03:14 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It's a real issue; very few kits of WW2 German aircraft include the swastika on the tail among the transfers[1], largely because doing so makes them illegal to display in Germany, so modellers have the choice of either making an inaccurate model or buying a sheet of swastikas. My preference is the latter, because building models and not including the swastika has something of the myth of the clean Wermacht about it, but I don't then display them where members of the public can see them.

With one exception; the group I'm in at the model railway club has built a layout set in the East End in 1940. Front and centre of the layout is the local synagogue, and at the moment, passing in front of it, is an RAF Queen Mary transporter carrying the shot down wreck of a Bf109, complete with swastika on the tail. I have yet to be told that it's pro-Nazi to portray the burned and blackened wreck of a Nazi plane passing by an undamaged synagogue, but I suspect it's only a matter of time.

Dave

[1] There are some workarounds; some kits include two transfers that, when applied together, make up a swastika.
Yup, I'm aware of that. Even back in the 1960's I had a model an FW190 that had a black diamond on the tail in place of the swastika.

However, it seems Hasagawa didn't get the memo!

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Old 16th November 2022, 03:16 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
On the tail of a model of an authentic bf 109? I mean seriously?
I think so. But how about asking families of Holocaust survivors? They are those (amongst others who suffered Nazi atrocities) who decide what is hateful and what isn’t. Not model builders upset they shouldn’t use the most hateful symbol of the last century.
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Old 16th November 2022, 03:47 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I think so. But how about asking families of Holocaust survivors? They are those (amongst others who suffered Nazi atrocities) who decide what is hateful and what isn’t. Not model builders upset they shouldn’t use the most hateful symbol of the last century.
Non sequitur. We're not talking about public display here.

I have a number of classic books by well known authors on my lounge library shelves, among them, The Holcroft Covenant (Robert Ludlum), The Odessa File (Frederick Forsyth) and SS-GB (Len Deighton). All three feature swastikas and/or SS runes on their covers and binder.

I must remember to hide them away next time my Jewish friends come to visit.
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Old 16th November 2022, 03:50 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Non sequitur.
Er, no.
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Old 16th November 2022, 03:51 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Not model builders upset they shouldn’t use the most hateful symbol of the last century.
Use, or display? I keep my models where they won't be seen by casual visitors or people passing outside my house. And if models are intended, say, for a museum display, where the purpose is clearly educational, is it better to mis-educate by pretending the Luftwaffe was a completely different organisation that had nothing whatsoever to do with the Nazi party?

Controlling the use of hateful symbolism is one thing. Deliberately erasing history is another, and it's important not to get the two confused.

Dave
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Old 16th November 2022, 03:54 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Use, or display? I keep my models where they won't be seen by casual visitors or people passing outside my house. And if models are intended, say, for a museum display, where the purpose is clearly educational, is it better to mis-educate by pretending the Luftwaffe was a completely different organisation that had nothing whatsoever to do with the Nazi party?

Controlling the use of hateful symbolism is one thing. Deliberately erasing history is another, and it's important not to get the two confused.

Dave
Sorry, I don’t agree. History is source documents, photographs, books and documentaries. Not models or flags with swastikas on them.

Look I’m not saying what you are doing illegal or evil stuff. Just distasteful in my opinion. I might do things distasteful to you. That’s the way the world works.
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Old 16th November 2022, 04:19 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Sorry, I don’t agree. History is source documents, photographs, books and documentaries. Not models or flags with swastikas on them.

Look I’m not saying what you are doing illegal or evil stuff. Just distasteful in my opinion. I might do things distasteful to you. That’s the way the world works.
Horse, water and drink.

We should strive to educate people about the horrors of what the Nazis did any way we can, and if that means authenticity as regards imagery... so . be . it!
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Old 16th November 2022, 04:24 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Horse, water and drink.

We should strive to educate people about the horrors of what the Nazis did any way we can, and if that means authenticity as regards imagery... so . be . it!
Do you think the laws about display of Nazi symbols in Australia, Germany and other places are wrong? If you don’t, we are just arguing about what “display” means. If you do, well I couldn’t disagree more.
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Old 16th November 2022, 04:29 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Sorry, I don’t agree. History is source documents, photographs, books and documentaries.
And physical objects with historical significance, I would have thought.

Dave
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Old 16th November 2022, 05:23 AM   #143
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A problem is, armies throughout history, including naval forces, have aimed to have as part of their aggression to have terrifying symbology - note the figurehead of the C17 Wasa ship (now a museum in Stockholm) - these were designed to invoke fear and trepidation in the enemy. So fast forward to recent childhood int he 60;s and 70's: comics and films used to great effect the hated 'jerries' and their evil dark insignia as the 'Baddies'. Not dissimilar to the old Westerns, with the goodies in white hats and the baddies in black and - heaven forefend! - even in black leather and fringes. So, on the one hand we have the iron cross and swastika as a symbol of 'the baddies' and on the other, millions of people in living memory who actually suffered from the actions of the bearers of this symbolism (which was deliberately chosen by Hitler and Himmler for its association with the Occult and powerful effect on the psyche, invoking patriotism, folk worship, blood and soil loyalty, a mythical folk history of battle and conquest, etc.)

Somehow, there has to be an acknowledgement that (a) the suffering is real and (b) that banning a thing because of it associations is not as straightforward as one might think.

For example, there was a marshmallow company in Finland who got a graphics designer to design the packaging, which depicted an old-style 'hottentot' with bone in hair, grass skirt, naked from waist up, pitch black and dancing around a pot (- presumably cannibals). The figures are laughing and smiling with goggle eyes. Whilst this was a typical image in the previous generations, this generation complained and the packaging scrapped.
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Old 16th November 2022, 07:37 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Sorry, I don’t agree. History is source documents, photographs, books and documentaries. Not models or flags with swastikas on them.

Look I’m not saying what you are doing illegal or evil stuff. Just distasteful in my opinion. I might do things distasteful to you. That’s the way the world works.
Books and documentaries are derivative. They're things historians produce from study of source documents and artifacts from the period in question. A totenkopf medallion is just as much history as a canopic jar or stone-chipped arrowhead.
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Old 16th November 2022, 02:34 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
But, like its racist, slavery based past, the right in the US wants that part of their history suppressed.
For the US, you got that backwards. Its the left that wants any mention of it erased
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Old 16th November 2022, 04:12 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
For the US, you got that backwards. Its the left that wants any mention of it erased
Utter Rubbish.

The left are not the ones who are bleating and instigating culture wars over CRT, and banning books from schools that would teach about your history of slavery.
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Old 16th November 2022, 04:44 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Do you think the laws about public display of Nazi symbols in Australia, Germany and other places are wrong?
Sheesh, you don't even properly understand your own laws (so I have fixed your post for you. The NSW Government’s criminalizes knowingly displaying a Nazi*symbol in public without a reasonable excuse

If you think that educating people is not a reasonable excuse, then I feel really sorry for you and those who think like you. If you think sweeping these things under the carpet and pretending fascists will all magically go away because no-one will see hate symbols, then I fear for the future of your country. It won't be long before something like a history text book about WWII will have to have all its historically contemporaneous illustrations censored with blanks and redactions covering swastikas and other Nazi hate symbols, and author will have to describe what these symbols look like.

Oh, and to answer your question (after I have corrected it to reflect what your laws actually say), I believe that whatever Australia and Germany want to do in that regard is their business, and yes, I do support banning the display of hate symbols in public unless there is some bona-fide value to doing so. In fact, I would go further. I would not leave "reasonable" undefined as your law does, as it is too subjective and open to individual interpretation. I would nail down what it means in the Law itself, e.g.

Education about the history of Nazi Germany.
Display on the above themes in museums and galleries.
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Old 16th November 2022, 05:37 PM   #148
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Quote:
....and author will have to describe what these symbols look like.
Surely that would be illegal also..
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Old 16th November 2022, 06:04 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Surely that would be illegal also..
Ultimately, using the "thin end of the wedge" principle... probably

I can just see it, in a historical textbook about the rise of the Third Reich...

"The Nazis marched through Europe under the banner of the swastika. Now I'd like to show what the swastika actually looks like, but we are legally prohibited from using illustrations that depict this symbol. In fact, we are not even allowed to describe it to you, except to say that was a form of cross"

There is an old saying that applies here... "Evil thrives in darkness"
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Old 17th November 2022, 10:44 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ultimately, using the "thin end of the wedge" principle... probably

I can just see it, in a historical textbook about the rise of the Third Reich...

"The Nazis marched through Europe under the banner of the swastika. Now I'd like to show what the swastika actually looks like, but we are legally prohibited from using illustrations that depict this symbol. In fact, we are not even allowed to describe it to you, except to say that was a form of cross"

There is an old saying that applies here... "Evil thrives in darkness"
And why you can't make assumptions about someone with nazi tattoos. They could be ironic or just history buffs. That's why you can't kick someone out of a public restaurant merely for wearing a swastika t shirt.
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Old 17th November 2022, 01:32 PM   #151
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Just realised, I have a book on my shelves that has a large swastika on the dust jacket. It's called Golfing for Cats, a collection of humorous pieces by Alan Coren, so named because the top selling books at the time were about golf, cats and the Third Reich.

It's a second impression from 1976, so things were somewhat different then. I don't know what they did about the dust jacket in countries where displaying a swastika was illegal and he certainly wouldn't get away with it today (were he still alive). Not only the fact it HAS a swastika on it, but using that symbol on a humorous book? And him being Jewish?
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Old 18th November 2022, 03:38 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
For the US, you got that backwards. Its the left that wants any mention of it erased
Where did you pick up that bovine excrement from?
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Old 18th November 2022, 02:40 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Perhaps she just wants to discourage long visits.
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Old 18th November 2022, 03:05 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by SteveAitch View Post
Just realised, I have a book on my shelves that has a large swastika on the dust jacket. It's called Golfing for Cats, a collection of humorous pieces by Alan Coren, so named because the top selling books at the time were about golf, cats and the Third Reich.

It's a second impression from 1976, so things were somewhat different then. I don't know what they did about the dust jacket in countries where displaying a swastika was illegal and he certainly wouldn't get away with it today (were he still alive). Not only the fact it HAS a swastika on it, but using that symbol on a humorous book? And him being Jewish?
I think a lot of books had pictures of swastikas on the cover until, maybe recently. I had an early edition of Fatherland by Robert Harris which was a massive bestseller and had a prominent publicity campaign that features the Nazi eagle with the swastika in its talons on the front. Apparently the original hardback cover had a Nazi swastika and the flag of the EU as Harris equates the two in the novel. The ******

I also remember that when I first went to university accommodation, my housemate walked in to my room and saw history books of mine on the shelf. Alan Bullock’s Hitler and Stalin and Dennis Mack Smith’s Mussolini among them, and him being shocked by them. Later he was telling other housemates about the shocking books he had seen and we had to spend some time explaining what it means to study history.

I think the point here is that you can interpret things incorrectly, and in some cases people will interpret things as uncharitably as possible. I think it is daft to have a zero-tolerance policy where all judgment is made obsolete by making all instances of particular Nazi images or even names or books Verboten.
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Old 18th November 2022, 03:13 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think a lot of books had pictures of swastikas on the cover until, maybe recently.
Notoriously The Betty Crocker 1001 Holiday Treats and Nibbles Cookbook. The Cinnamon Pretzel Knotsies were delicious but conflicting.
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Old 18th November 2022, 03:57 PM   #156
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My hardback edition of Rise and Fall of the Third Reich has a big swastika on the spine as well. I remember my brother-in-law from Germany asking me if that was a copy of Mein Kampf when he spotted it on my bookshelves.

One presumes the German edition of the William Shirer book has a different dust cover.
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Old 18th November 2022, 10:20 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think a lot of books had pictures of swastikas on the cover until, maybe recently. I had an early edition of Fatherland by Robert Harris which was a massive bestseller and had a prominent publicity campaign that features the Nazi eagle with the swastika in its talons on the front. Apparently the original hardback cover had a Nazi swastika and the flag of the EU as Harris equates the two in the novel. The ******

I also remember that when I first went to university accommodation, my housemate walked in to my room and saw history books of mine on the shelf. Alan Bullock’s Hitler and Stalin and Dennis Mack Smith’s Mussolini among them, and him being shocked by them. Later he was telling other housemates about the shocking books he had seen and we had to spend some time explaining what it means to study history.

I think the point here is that you can interpret things incorrectly, and in some cases people will interpret things as uncharitably as possible. I think it is daft to have a zero-tolerance policy where all judgment is made obsolete by making all instances of particular Nazi images or even names or books Verboten.
As I mentioned earlier, The Holcroft Covenant (Ludlum), The Odessa File (Forsyth) and SS-GB (Deighton) are ones that I have and those are just the fiction ones. I also have

Operation Paperclip: The Secret Intelligence Program that Brought Nazi Scientists to America by Annie Jacobsen (bloody fascinating book if you are into the history of the early days of the US space programme)

The French Against the French: Collaboration and Resistance by Milton Dank (about the way families were torn apart, and the emotional and physical conflict during the occupation of France, between as those who supported the Régime de Vichy and those who helped the Resistance.)

But there are also plenty of others.

The important thing to remember is that a swastika is not some all-powerful weapon that can do you any harm. If you let it offend you, then you are the problem. If any of the books on your bookshelves have a swastika on them, it does not automatically make you a Nazi, a neo-Nazi, a Nazi sympathizer, or an otherwise bad person. Anyone who is offended by the mere sight of a swastika on a book is someone that you might want to feel sorry for. Anyone come to my house and tries taking me to task for having those books will get a short, sharp lesson on rights, freedoms and history.
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Old 19th November 2022, 12:35 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
As I mentioned earlier, The Holcroft Covenant (Ludlum), The Odessa File (Forsyth) and SS-GB (Deighton) are ones that I have and those are just the fiction ones. I also have

Operation Paperclip: The Secret Intelligence Program that Brought Nazi Scientists to America by Annie Jacobsen (bloody fascinating book if you are into the history of the early days of the US space programme)

The French Against the French: Collaboration and Resistance by Milton Dank (about the way families were torn apart, and the emotional and physical conflict during the occupation of France, between as those who supported the Régime de Vichy and those who helped the Resistance.)

But there are also plenty of others.

The important thing to remember is that a swastika is not some all-powerful weapon that can do you any harm. If you let it offend you, then you are the problem. If any of the books on your bookshelves have a swastika on them, it does not automatically make you a Nazi, a neo-Nazi, a Nazi sympathizer, or an otherwise bad person. Anyone who is offended by the mere sight of a swastika on a book is someone that you might want to feel sorry for. Anyone come to my house and tries taking me to task for having those books will get a short, sharp lesson on rights, freedoms and history.
What strikes me is that things have changed dramatically even in the last 30 or 40 years (i.e., as we move further away from the Holocaust and Nazi Germany). There were numerous wargames back in the 1970s where you could play as either side; I remember playing Axis vs Allies and while I preferred playing as the Allies I certainly was willing to defend the fatherland if it was my turn, just as I didn't have any qualms about playing the South in Civil War games. We might as well have been playing the green against the gold as far as I was concerned but putting it on historical battlefields made it more interesting and immediate.
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Last edited by Brainster; 19th November 2022 at 12:40 AM.
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Old 19th November 2022, 03:17 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
What strikes me is that things have changed dramatically even in the last 30 or 40 years (i.e., as we move further away from the Holocaust and Nazi Germany). There were numerous wargames back in the 1970s where you could play as either side; I remember playing Axis vs Allies and while I preferred playing as the Allies I certainly was willing to defend the fatherland if it was my turn, just as I didn't have any qualms about playing the South in Civil War games. We might as well have been playing the green against the gold as far as I was concerned but putting it on historical battlefields made it more interesting and immediate.
We could even ask, hello? U.S.A and the UK and allies were allies with, er, Stalin, mass murderer, prototype blueprint for Putin...?
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