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Old 4th November 2022, 12:45 PM   #281
ahhell
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Plenty of things appear obvious until you actually do the research to find out your underlying assumptions were wrong, or you were missing some crucial information.



I love it when your typos are Freudian slips. Are there material economic benefits? No, as you say.



You're welcome to assume that this is some real, large problem despite no evidence pointing to that. It is the right wing position as per this thread. I think it's pretty silly to take something that one only has a handful of examples, and out of those all or almost all are only potential rather than proven, and run around like the sky is falling.
All I see is an internet thread about it along with some rightwing types making fun of the likes of Warren for it. Not exactly anyone acting like the sky is falling.

I may have missed it but has anyone in this discussion suggest that we even do anything other than talk about and yet you are eager to dismiss even the discussion.
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Old 4th November 2022, 01:07 PM   #282
wareyin
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
All I see is an internet thread about it along with some rightwing types making fun of the likes of Warren for it. Not exactly anyone acting like the sky is falling.

I may have missed it but has anyone in this discussion suggest that we even do anything other than talk about and yet you are eager to dismiss even the discussion.
Asking for concrete evidence of existence for this problem that d4m10n, Zig, and theprestige all believe must be fixed is not dismissing the discussion.
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Old 4th November 2022, 01:37 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Asking for concrete evidence of existence for this problem that d4m10n, Zig, and theprestige all believe must be fixed is not dismissing the discussion.
If folks have asked for a solution, then they do have to things to show. A. that it happens and more importantly B. That there is harm.

I personally think it happens a lot at the very low level I have described, I'm 1/8th what ever and there is evidence that it happens at least a small amount at the level where folks are getting some advantage to it. Dolezal seems to have gotten a job in part based on here being black. I'm not convinced anything needs to be done beyond the humilation of being found out. If folks can demonstrate that folks are being cheated out of scholarships or something, then maybe I'd consider more action.
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Old 4th November 2022, 02:13 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Considering that nobody is actually looking for this sort of thing, that certainly indicates something. There's also basically no mechanism for looking for it.
There is also no mechanism for validating racial or ethnic identity when it really matters, e.g. college admissions. Consider the following exchange between the Solicitor General of North Carolina and Justice Samuel Alito from a recent oral argument before the U.S. Supreme Court:

Quote:
JUSTICE ALITO: Let me just ask one more related question, and that is the circumstance -- and this is a real problem, and I've heard it described to me by people who face it, when can a student honestly claim to fall within one of these groups that is awarded a plus factor? So let's say the student has one grandparent who falls within that class. Can the student claim to be a member of an underrepresented minority?

MR. PARK: Yes, we rely on -- on self-reporting. And -- and we don't give any --

JUSTICE ALITO: All right. One great grandparent.

MR. PARK: If that person believes that that is the accurate expression of their identity, I don't think there would be any --

JUSTICE ALITO: One --

MR. PARK: -- problem.

JUSTICE ALITO: -- great-great grandparent? Are you going to make me continue to go on?

MR. PARK: Right, right, right. I think that as we go on, I agree that it would seem less plausible that that person would feel that this is actually capturing my true racial identity but the same is true for any of the other diversity factors that we rely on.
Overall, Ryan Park made a fairly strong argument but here he reveals that racial diversity is rooted in self-reporting from students who are interested in standing out amongst a pool of university applicants.

What the dozen people mentioned at #277 have in common is not just allegations of claiming a false ethnic background, but also having a high enough public profile that they make the newspapers. Most people doing self-reporting to get into a state school like UNC are well below that level of public scrutiny.

Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
In response to being accused of being long on speculation, d4m10n points out that he's got maybe 12 potential cases.
I'd ask how many of the potential cases you consider to be actually problematic, but that would require you to engage with the substance of the issue here. Murphy knows I'm not that much of an optimist.
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Old 7th November 2022, 06:48 AM   #285
wareyin
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'd ask how many of the potential cases you consider to be actually problematic, but that would require you to engage with the substance of the issue here. Murphy knows I'm not that much of an optimist.
And yet again, here you go assuming that there even is substance to your issue despite having nothing but "potential" instances.

We can't discuss the substance of your substance free claims, so complaining that we don't is just sour grapes.
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Old 20th November 2022, 02:58 PM   #286
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The whole point of race fraud (aka 'passing as') is that a member of a group that does not posess advantage pretends to be a member of a group that has, or is perceived to have advantage. This is why in historic times the vast majority of cases were non-whites pretending to be whites.



Nowadays the majority of cases being reported as in the allegations linked below are whites pretending to be non-whites, quite simply it's a natural human reaction.


Quote:
A relative of a Victorian Labor candidate who has described herself as a "proud Yorta Yorta woman" has said their family has no Indigenous ancestry and has never identified as Aboriginal.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...ve/ar-AA14kUNx
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Old 21st November 2022, 02:05 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
The whole point of race fraud (aka 'passing as') is that a member of a group that does not posess advantage pretends to be a member of a group that has, or is perceived to have advantage. This is why in historic times the vast majority of cases were non-whites pretending to be whites.
This is somewhat complicated by the fact that people of ⅞ European American descent (e.g. Homer Plessy) were still considered non-white by the dominant cultural standard of the time.
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Old 21st November 2022, 04:08 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
We get the same thing with people claiming to be Scottish, and not only (though probably mainly) Americans. I've had Americans on this forum insisting they were Scottish because reasons, apparently only having been to Scotland once or twice on holiday, if that.

It does raise the question though, at what point does a great grandparent cease to be relevant? Or how many great grandparents do you need of a particular nationality to be able to claim some sort of ethnic descent? Legal nationality is one thing, but claims based on someone who contributed only one-eighth of your DNA (maybe)? I don't know.
This is interesting to me because I heavily identify with Scotland. I don't consider myself Scottish of course, that's silly. But my DNA and family are heavily Scottish and I can trace most of my ancestry to one particular small area of Scotland on both of my family lines.

Visiting was an amazing experience to me. I was definitely able to verify and see with my own eyes some family connections to the area.
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Old 21st November 2022, 04:10 PM   #289
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On race fraud I mostly think it's hilarious and not criminal. If you want to LARP as another race be my guest, I try to treat everyone the same anyway.
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Old 26th November 2022, 12:07 PM   #290
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Another one of those right wing rags stirring up this controversy.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/...s-17602244.php

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Old 26th November 2022, 01:00 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
On race fraud I mostly think it's hilarious and not criminal. If you want to LARP as another race be my guest, I try to treat everyone the same anyway.
There's also immoral and unethical. It's not like human social interactions are all either crimes or okay.

As for fraud. Well, fraud is not hilarious. It's a moral and ethical transgression, even if no statutory crime is being committed. People who lie about their race - or about anything else - in order to gain an advantage at someone else's expense probably don't seem that funny to their victims.

I guess the real question is, what exactly are the advantages of committing race fraud? Gaining some unearned social credit on university campuses doesn't seem like such a big deal. Beating out more deserving candidates for a diversity hire position seems pretty unfunny. Receiving benefits earmarked for underprivileged minorities seems like it probably should be a crime.

Finally, as race fraud becomes more widespread, it will tend to poison the well of equity programs and activism. People will start to perceive all claimants as potentially fraudulent carpetbaggers. They will also start to perceive these programs as creating perverse incentives to fraud and misrepresentation. They will also start to perceive these programs as poorly managed, wasteful, and generally ignorant.

Actually that last paragraph may be more of a feature than a bug. But do we really want an accelerationist, break it to fix it approach to properly gatekeeping minority benefits?
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Old 27th November 2022, 02:33 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Finally, as race fraud becomes more widespread, it will tend to poison the well of equity programs and activism. People will start to perceive all claimants as potentially fraudulent carpetbaggers. They will also start to perceive these programs as creating perverse incentives to fraud and misrepresentation.
I usually see this particular argument applied to false claims of rape; but it simply isn't true in either case. Nobody who actually thinks racial equity programs and activism are a necessary social good is going to become convinced they are bad or untenable because fraud sometimes happens. Even social programs with far more and more-easily quantifiable instances of fraud, like food stamps or Medicare, don't actually lose any supporters because from every angle - emotional, moral, purely mathematical - the positive benefits vastly outweigh the cost of any incidental fraud, and this fact was usually part of the calculus that led them to be supporters to begin with.
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Old 27th November 2022, 02:44 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Another one of those right wing rags stirring up this controversy.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/...s-17602244.php

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See if Sacheen Littlefeather just said she was Pueblo, nobody would have given her a second look.
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Old 28th November 2022, 09:01 AM   #294
ahhell
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I usually see this particular argument applied to false claims of rape; but it simply isn't true in either case. Nobody who actually thinks racial equity programs and activism are a necessary social good is going to become convinced they are bad or untenable because fraud sometimes happens. Even social programs with far more and more-easily quantifiable instances of fraud, like food stamps or Medicare, don't actually lose any supporters because from every angle - emotional, moral, purely mathematical - the positive benefits vastly outweigh the cost of any incidental fraud, and this fact was usually part of the calculus that led them to be supporters to begin with.
This overlooks the large group of people aren't especially motivated or bought into racial equity but could be convinced.
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Old 29th November 2022, 06:24 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
See if Sacheen Littlefeather just said she was Pueblo, nobody would have given her a second look.
Nah bro, the real trick is to pick a (culturally) extinct tribe like the TaínoWP.
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