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Old 21st November 2022, 02:53 PM   #921
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
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True, it probably was not stated as "come live with a bunch of murdering fundies". But your very own reference points out the following:

Witness E pointed out that Ms Begum must have been aware of the Islamic State group's atrocities, including beheadings of Western hostages, by the time she travelled.
Witness E is speaking from their own adult perspective. Schoolkids don't necessarily keep up with the news on any deep level.
They may not watch cable news with the regularity of a senior citizen.

But then, from an interview with Sky news (referenced in the Washington Post article above)
Q: Did you know what Islamic State were doing when you left for Syria? Because they had beheaded people. There were executions.
A: Yeah, I knew about those things and I was okay with it. Because, you know, I started becoming religious just before I left.


So she can't claim total ignorance before she left. She admitted she knew of the beheadings, and went to join ISIS anyways.
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Old 21st November 2022, 02:56 PM   #922
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
They may not watch cable news with the regularity of a senior citizen.

But then, from an interview with Sky news (referenced in the Washington Post article above)
Q: Did you know what Islamic State were doing when you left for Syria? Because they had beheaded people. There were executions.
A: Yeah, I knew about those things and I was okay with it. Because, you know, I started becoming religious just before I left.


So she can't claim total ignorance before she left. She admitted she knew of the beheadings, and went to join ISIS anyways.
Who oiled the wheels? Can anybody just get up and pop over to Syria?


Somebody recruited these three silly schoolgirls and arranged their passage.
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Old 21st November 2022, 03:03 PM   #923
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
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In the case of a teenager who wants to join ISIS... its true that they haven't yet reached the age to drive. The question is have they at least reached the maturity level to understand that "going to live with a bunch of murdering fundies is bad".
...
Put it this way... if instead of going to join ISIS, how would she be treated by the legal system if she were told by ISIS recruiters "stay in England and kill people there". Would she be seen as an innocent victim and let off scot free as a victim of grooming? Or would they say "you might have been influenced, but even at your young age you should have recognized it was wrong"
But she didn't kill anyone and she wasn't recruited i.e. groomed to kill anyone.
No she didn't. She just decided to uproot her life in order to support people who WERE actually killing people, and to breed the next generation of soldiers who would continue fighting and beheading people. She was the diet coke of evil... one calorie, not evil enough.

Its like being the cook for the soldiers at a concentration camp... you aren't killing people directly, but what you are doing is providing support for the system that allows such killings to occur.
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Old 21st November 2022, 03:11 PM   #924
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
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I just question what she thinks she might do to "fight terrorism".

I mean, its not like she can help give intelligence to help defeat ISIS. She has been in a refugee camp for so long that anything she might have known (about ISIS activities in the middle east, or about their efforts to traffic in girls) is probably years out of date (and probably already known by various intelligence agencies).

I suppose she could go on a "don't do what I did" tour, but I'm not really sure how useful that would be
I can see her as a good role model for today's teenagers now that she has seen the consequences of her actions.
That's of course only assuming she really has repented, and isn't just trying to curry favor.

Is she genuinely remorseful? Maybe she is. But if her actions are motivated only by the thought of "Sorry I got caught" or "sorry ISIS lost" or whatever, then she'd be more useful having the book thrown at her as an example rather than as some sort of "role model".

Quote:
Who oiled the wheels? Can anybody just get up and pop over to Syria?
Somebody recruited these three silly schoolgirls and arranged their passage.
I hope they do manage to find (and prosecute) anyone that was involved in brainwashing/grooming/transporting the girls to the middle east.

That doesn't necessarily mean the girl herself shouldn't face at least some consequences for her actions, or be seen as a potential threat.
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Old 21st November 2022, 04:18 PM   #925
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"Shamima Begum said she had never seen an execution during her time with IS, "but I saw a beheaded head in the bin". "It didn't faze me at all," she added.

"Despite her friend and her two children dying, and seeing the oppressive nature of IS, she said she does not regret joining the terror group."

https://news.sky.com/story/i-dont-re...-baby-11636715

"James Eadie KC, representing the government, said in written arguments that Begum had aligned with IS and stayed in Syria for four years until 2019.

Eadie said Begum left IS territory “only as the caliphate collapsed”, adding: “Even at that stage, the evidence demonstrates that she left only for safety and not because of a genuine disengagement from the group.”

He added: “When she did emerge, and gave multiple press interviews shortly before the secretary of state decided to deprive her of her citizenship, she expressed no remorse and said she did not regret joining [IS], acknowledging that she was aware of the nature of the group when she travelled.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ing-court-told

I hope the court rejects her case and keeps her out.
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Old 21st November 2022, 04:42 PM   #926
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All of that should be argued in court, in the UK, with evidence, with her present, and with her still holding UK citizenship.

This whole debacle has been down to the UK government deciding to try this case in the court of public opinion, via press conferences and sound bites, instead of giving a UK citizen the due process of law to which she is entitled.

Rishi Sunak should take a break from doing photo ops with Zelensky, rescind these clown world policy decisions of his predecessors, and see that this woman gets a proper trial.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:54 AM   #927
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
"Shamima Begum said she had never seen an execution during her time with IS, "but I saw a beheaded head in the bin". "It didn't faze me at all," she added.

"Despite her friend and her two children dying, and seeing the oppressive nature of IS, she said she does not regret joining the terror group."

https://news.sky.com/story/i-dont-re...-baby-11636715

"James Eadie KC, representing the government, said in written arguments that Begum had aligned with IS and stayed in Syria for four years until 2019.

Eadie said Begum left IS territory “only as the caliphate collapsed”, adding: “Even at that stage, the evidence demonstrates that she left only for safety and not because of a genuine disengagement from the group.”

He added: “When she did emerge, and gave multiple press interviews shortly before the secretary of state decided to deprive her of her citizenship, she expressed no remorse and said she did not regret joining [IS], acknowledging that she was aware of the nature of the group when she travelled.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ing-court-told

I hope the court rejects her case and keeps her out.
Stockholm Syndrome is proven to be real. This is a situation so named where hostages after a while began to adopt and sympathise with the hostage takers views. It is a real phenomenon, this is why people who are drawn into sinister cults - often the young and gullible - have to be debriefed and deprogrammed after being rescued. One famous example is that of 'heiress' Patty Hearst, from a wealthy newspaper magnate family, who was kidnapped by the Symbionese Army (or she claimed to have been). She is even captured on CCTV in a bank acting as a look out during one of this political groups bank robberies. She was led to believe the bank robberies were in a good cause, etcetera. Then there were all of those young adults who thought Charles Manson's family was the place where it was at.

Begum's lawyers have indicated that Begum is willing to stand trial for any crimes committed whilst she was under the Caliphate in Syria.

Expecting someone who has just been rescued from such a situation, where her colleagues would have engaged in one-to-one fighting against the Syrian army with the Russians and Americans to immediately show remorse and fully understand the bigger picture is simply not reasonable.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:58 AM   #928
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
All of that should be argued in court, in the UK, with evidence, with her present, and with her still holding UK citizenship.

This whole debacle has been down to the UK government deciding to try this case in the court of public opinion, via press conferences and sound bites, instead of giving a UK citizen the due process of law to which she is entitled.

Rishi Sunak should take a break from doing photo ops with Zelensky, rescind these clown world policy decisions of his predecessors, and see that this woman gets a proper trial.

That's right. A problem is that these tribunals are often highly secretive, to do with national security, and the government just wants the headlines. It has discovered that anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim is highly popular. Bear in mind the Home Secretary who binned Begum's British citizenship was himself ironically registered as a Non-Dom Pakistani, to avoid UK taxation, despite supposedly being patriotically British.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 02:17 AM   #929
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nonsense. Once in the Caliphate there was no escape. The other aspect of the grooming was that her friends were all for it, too. This is a type of mob mentality when teenagers think, hey, my friends are doing it, it must be fun and it must be normal.
The caliphate is no more, hasn't she since at least expressed regret for her actions and condemned the idea of the caliphate and it's expressed intent to destroy "The West"?

And presumably her friends have expressed regret too?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 02:56 AM   #930
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
They may not watch cable news with the regularity of a senior citizen.

But then, from an interview with Sky news (referenced in the Washington Post article above)
Q: Did you know what Islamic State were doing when you left for Syria? Because they had beheaded people. There were executions.
A: Yeah, I knew about those things and I was okay with it. Because, you know, I started becoming religious just before I left.


So she can't claim total ignorance before she left. She admitted she knew of the beheadings, and went to join ISIS anyways.
If she is accused of doing something illegal, that should be decided in a fair trial (although from what I understand, leaving the UK for Syria was not illegal at the time).
There is no excuse for making somebody stateless or trying to dump the problem on to another country.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 03:22 AM   #931
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
The caliphate is no more, hasn't she since at least expressed regret for her actions and condemned the idea of the caliphate and it's expressed intent to destroy "The West"?

And presumably her friends have expressed regret too?
Her friends are reported as being dead.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 03:27 AM   #932
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
"Shamima Begum said she had never seen an execution during her time with IS, "but I saw a beheaded head in the bin". "It didn't faze me at all," she added.

"Despite her friend and her two children dying, and seeing the oppressive nature of IS, she said she does not regret joining the terror group."

https://news.sky.com/story/i-dont-re...-baby-11636715

"James Eadie KC, representing the government, said in written arguments that Begum had aligned with IS and stayed in Syria for four years until 2019.

Eadie said Begum left IS territory “only as the caliphate collapsed”, adding: “Even at that stage, the evidence demonstrates that she left only for safety and not because of a genuine disengagement from the group.”

He added: “When she did emerge, and gave multiple press interviews shortly before the secretary of state decided to deprive her of her citizenship, she expressed no remorse and said she did not regret joining [IS], acknowledging that she was aware of the nature of the group when she travelled.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ing-court-told

I hope the court rejects her case and keeps her out.
Her actions when she left the UK and afterwards were as a British citizen, if what she did was criminal then she should face trial for that, I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

The issue is that the UK has made her stateless disregarding our obligations and commitments under international treaties. We have no excuse for rendering her stateless.

Plus the idea that she is so dangerous to the security of the UK that we couldn't put her on trial here is beyond ridiculous.

Why shouldn't she face trial for her - alleged - crimes in the UK?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 03:37 AM   #933
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
All of that should be argued in court, in the UK, with evidence, with her present, and with her still holding UK citizenship.
It is being argued in court, that doesn't mean it cannot be discussed on a discussion forum.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Stockholm Syndrome is proven to be real. This is a situation so named where hostages after a while began to adopt and sympathise with the hostage takers views.
It is also extremely rare.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
why shouldn't she face trial for her - alleged - crimes in the UK?
Because we removed her citizenship. I have put my point across about this at length earlier in the thread. We will never agree on it so I don't see any point rehashing that discussion.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 03:44 AM   #934
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
...snip...

Because we removed her citizenship. I have put my point across about this at length earlier in the thread. We will never agree on it so I don't see any point rehashing that discussion.
As an aside - do you agree with our international obligations to not make someone stateless?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 04:50 AM   #935
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As an aside - do you agree with our international obligations to not make someone stateless?
Absolutely. I think we acted in accordance with our international obligations, you do not. Ne'er the twain shall meet.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 05:00 AM   #936
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Absolutely. I think we acted in accordance with our international obligations, you do not. Ne'er the twain shall meet.
But she is now stateless, she literally has no nationality - so we haven't acted in accordance with our international obligations.

That's a black and white clear fact.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 10:55 AM   #937
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
True, it probably was not stated as "come live with a bunch of murdering fundies". But your very own reference points out the following:

Witness E pointed out that Ms Begum must have been aware of the Islamic State group's atrocities, including beheadings of Western hostages, by the time she travelled.

Its not like the activities of ISIS were all that secret. How far should we push the "she just didn't know about the bad stuff" argument?

And if you accept that she was genuinely ignorant of what ISIS was, how do we know that she won't have other bouts of ignorance in the future?
Witness E's statement is an assertion backed by absolutely no evidence.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 10:57 AM   #938
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
People in M15 might be good at recognising threats to national security. However, on the level of human trafficking of minors, I am not sure they are the go-to. All the spooks I ever knew are fiercely patriotic, so the M15 representative in court today might well just be expressing unconscious bias, as ISIS were a grave threat some years ago and their crimes hideous.
Based on their activities in the six counties MI5 are good at creating threats to national security but bad at identifying them.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 11:25 AM   #939
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
It is being argued in court, that doesn't mean it cannot be discussed on a discussion forum.



It is also extremely rare.



Because we removed her citizenship. I have put my point across about this at length earlier in the thread. We will never agree on it so I don't see any point rehashing that discussion.
The home secretary at the time rendered her stateless not because she was a clear and present danger to the state, nor because she ever committed acts which were repugnant to all morality, but because the English government knew that various state bodies had acted with depraved indifference when failing to protect a vulnerable child and didn't want to deal with the consequences of that failure.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 11:38 AM   #940
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But she is now stateless, she literally has no nationality - so we haven't acted in accordance with our international obligations.

That's a black and white clear fact.
We didn't make her stateless, IMO Bangladesh did. Another point we will never agree on.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 11:40 AM   #941
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
The home secretary at the time rendered her stateless not because she was a clear and present danger to the state, nor because she ever committed acts which were repugnant to all morality, but because the English government knew that various state bodies had acted with depraved indifference when failing to protect a vulnerable child and didn't want to deal with the consequences of that failure.
If you say so /shrug.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 11:51 AM   #942
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Quote:
True, it probably was not stated as "come live with a bunch of murdering fundies". But your very own reference points out the following:

Witness E pointed out that Ms Begum must have been aware of the Islamic State group's atrocities, including beheadings of Western hostages, by the time she travelled.
Witness E's statement is an assertion backed by absolutely no evidence.
Actually go back and look at posting 921 right here on this forum.

It refers to an interview that Begum gave to the media where she was asked if she knew about the executions taking place under ISIS (when she left for Syria).

Her response: "Yeah, I knew about those things and I was okay with it."

And that's coming right from Begum herself. Not "some analyst making assumptions", or from a friend of a friend who knew her.

Now, maybe she was lying about knowing about the beheadings. But it would seem rather counterproductive for her to do so since it makes her look bad.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 11:58 AM   #943
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
We didn't make her stateless, IMO Bangladesh did. Another point we will never agree on.
She has never had Bangladesh nationality. You may as well say every country in the world has made her stateless since she wasn’t a national of any other country than the UK.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 10:58 AM   #944
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
She has never had Bangladesh nationality. You may as well say every country in the world has made her stateless since she wasn’t a national of any other country than the UK.
Another point we disagree on.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 11:08 AM   #945
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
We didn't make her stateless, IMO Bangladesh did. Another point we will never agree on.
She wasn't a Bangladeshi national. There's no way a country for which she never held citizenship could make her stateless.

But then again it was simply another excuse cooked up by the cowardly English government to try and hide their criminal neglect of a child.

And I don't care if you don't agree with me. In this case there are facts and your opinions, the two don't intersect.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 11:29 AM   #946
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She held Bangladeshi citizenship simply by being born to her parents. Bangladeshi law stated this. Our Government looked at this law and decided they could retract her citizenship as it wouldn't leave her stateless. After we did this, Bangladesh decided not to abide by their own law and said she doesn't hold Bangladeshi citizenship. Our court is now deciding if our government acted responsibly in this matter. I hope they make the right decision and uphold the governments choice.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 02:21 PM   #947
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
She held Bangladeshi citizenship simply by being born to her parents. Bangladeshi law stated this. Our Government looked at this law and decided they could retract her citizenship as it wouldn't leave her stateless. After we did this, Bangladesh decided not to abide by their own law and said she doesn't hold Bangladeshi citizenship. Our court is now deciding if our government acted responsibly in this matter. I hope they make the right decision and uphold the governments choice.
The UK cannot make a decision for another country, Bangladesh officials have said that she is not a Bangladesh citizen. And Bangladesh is the only authority that matters in regards to who is a citizen or not.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 02:35 PM   #948
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
She held Bangladeshi citizenship simply by being born to her parents. Bangladeshi law stated this. Our Government looked at this law and decided they could retract her citizenship as it wouldn't leave her stateless. After we did this, Bangladesh decided not to abide by their own law and said she doesn't hold Bangladeshi citizenship. Our court is now deciding if our government acted responsibly in this matter. I hope they make the right decision and uphold the governments choice.
In order to have upheld its international obligations in this matter, the UK would have had to get Bangladesh's agreement with their conclusion, before acting on it.

And so far nobody has given any coherent explanation for why it was morally necessary to take that step at all.
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Old 24th November 2022, 11:42 AM   #949
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Actually go back and look at posting 921 right here on this forum.

It refers to an interview that Begum gave to the media where she was asked if she knew about the executions taking place under ISIS (when she left for Syria).

Her response: "Yeah, I knew about those things and I was okay with it."

And that's coming right from Begum herself. Not "some analyst making assumptions", or from a friend of a friend who knew her.

Now, maybe she was lying about knowing about the beheadings. But it would seem rather counterproductive for her to do so since it makes her look bad.
At the time of the interview she was in a refugee camp and in danger of retribution from others.

If you can't see that someone trafficked at age fifteen from a sheltered life is in no position to rebel against her captors, especially the zealous fundamentalist sort.
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Old 24th November 2022, 11:45 AM   #950
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
She held Bangladeshi citizenship simply by being born to her parents. Bangladeshi law stated this. Our Government looked at this law and decided they could retract her citizenship as it wouldn't leave her stateless. After we did this, Bangladesh decided not to abide by their own law and said she doesn't hold Bangladeshi citizenship. Our court is now deciding if our government acted responsibly in this matter. I hope they make the right decision and uphold the governments choice.
You misunderstand nationality law. In concept the child born abroad of Bangladeshi nationals has the right to claim Bangladeshi nationality. However, as with Irish nationality, if your grandparent is/was Irish, you have to make an application for citizenship. In addition, you also have to show an intention of living there at some point or spending a lot of time there (= close links). As with most countries, children of nationals born abroad usually have to make an application for automatic citizenship by a certain age, 18 or 21. Otherwise they have to go down the usual residence permit route.
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Old 24th November 2022, 12:11 PM   #951
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The UK cannot make a decision for another country, Bangladesh officials have said that she is not a Bangladesh citizen. And Bangladesh is the only authority that matters in regards to who is a citizen or not.
And round and round we go.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In order to have upheld its international obligations in this matter, the UK would have had to get Bangladesh's agreement with their conclusion, before acting on it.

And so far nobody has given any coherent explanation for why it was morally necessary to take that step at all.
I don't care about morality here anymore than the court does. The court will make the decision and the Government will abide by it.
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Old 24th November 2022, 04:19 PM   #952
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You misunderstand nationality law. In concept the child born abroad of Bangladeshi nationals has the right to claim Bangladeshi nationality. However, as with Irish nationality, if your grandparent is/was Irish, you have to make an application for citizenship. In addition, you also have to show an intention of living there at some point or spending a lot of time there (= close links). As with most countries, children of nationals born abroad usually have to make an application for automatic citizenship by a certain age, 18 or 21. Otherwise they have to go down the usual residence permit route.
https://www.ejiltalk.org/shamima-beg...zen-after-all/

"The Commission in G3 (para 70) held that the aforesaid provisions make it manifest that citizenship by descent in Bangladesh arises at birth. This interpretation is also supported by the use of the phrases ‘shall be a citizen of Bangladesh by descent’ and ‘person claiming citizenship by descent’ in Section 5 of the Citizenship Act 1951 and Rule 9 of the Bangladesh Citizenship Rules 1952 respectively. Therefore, a person is automatically a citizen of Bangladesh at birth if either of his or her parents is a Bangladeshi citizen by birth (i.e. was born in Bangladesh).

The application referred to in Rule 9 is merely an application to obtain proof or certificate of citizenship. It has no legal effect on the status of citizenship, which has been acquired at birth. This inference is also supported by the nature of the documents that need to be submitted along with an application under Rule 9.

According to the information currently available, Ms Begum was born in the UK, at least one of her parents is a Bangladeshi citizen by birth. Therefore, according to Section 5 of the Citizenship Act 1951 and Rule 9 of the Bangladesh Citizenship Rules 1952 , Ms Begum is ‘a citizen of Bangladesh by descent’. Her citizenship is not contingent upon whether she holds a Bangladeshi passport or any other proof of citizenship or whether she has submitted any application for the same, or whether she has ever visited Bangladesh. It is evident from the provisions above that holding a passport or a proof of citizenship or applying for the same or even visiting Bangladesh has no impact on the legal fact of citizenship."
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Old 25th November 2022, 08:57 AM   #953
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
https://www.ejiltalk.org/shamima-beg...zen-after-all/

"The Commission in G3 (para 70) held that the aforesaid provisions make it manifest that citizenship by descent in Bangladesh arises at birth. This interpretation is also supported by the use of the phrases ‘shall be a citizen of Bangladesh by descent’ and ‘person claiming citizenship by descent’ in Section 5 of the Citizenship Act 1951 and Rule 9 of the Bangladesh Citizenship Rules 1952 respectively. Therefore, a person is automatically a citizen of Bangladesh at birth if either of his or her parents is a Bangladeshi citizen by birth (i.e. was born in Bangladesh).

The application referred to in Rule 9 is merely an application to obtain proof or certificate of citizenship. It has no legal effect on the status of citizenship, which has been acquired at birth. This inference is also supported by the nature of the documents that need to be submitted along with an application under Rule 9.

According to the information currently available, Ms Begum was born in the UK, at least one of her parents is a Bangladeshi citizen by birth. Therefore, according to Section 5 of the Citizenship Act 1951 and Rule 9 of the Bangladesh Citizenship Rules 1952 , Ms Begum is ‘a citizen of Bangladesh by descent’. Her citizenship is not contingent upon whether she holds a Bangladeshi passport or any other proof of citizenship or whether she has submitted any application for the same, or whether she has ever visited Bangladesh. It is evident from the provisions above that holding a passport or a proof of citizenship or applying for the same or even visiting Bangladesh has no impact on the legal fact of citizenship."
If this is the legal case, then how come the Bangladeshi government claims Begum is NOT a Bangladeshi citizen? I note the Act that the SAIC say they are relying on is dated 1952. Surely they have had a new Act since then? The Act that would apply to Begum would be the one which was in force on her date of birth.


If Begum had been an adult as of the time she left the UK then there might be a point to Sir James Eadie, KC for the government when he states she would have known full well what ISIL stood for and of their acts of barbarism.

As a middle-aged professional man who has to keep his CPD up to date, how on earth does he equate himself with a 15-year-old CHILD still at school and likely hardly ever watched the news? It is incredible that a Bangladeshi aged 15 is seen as fully adult whereas had that been a little 15-year-old schoolboy from the home counties there would have been a rescue mission already.
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Old 26th November 2022, 04:30 AM   #954
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Bangladesh is trying to break its own laws because they don't want a terrorist in their country anymore than we do. Governments are not infallible or all powerful which is why countries such as us and Bangladesh have a court system to provide checks on the Government.

If Shamima wants to dispute the claim, the onus is on her to go to Bangladesh and challenge their decision in court.

The UK government applied and followed Bangladesh law as it stood at the time.
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Old 26th November 2022, 05:25 AM   #955
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Bangladesh is trying to break its own laws because they don't want a terrorist in their country anymore than we do. Governments are not infallible or all powerful which is why countries such as us and Bangladesh have a court system to provide checks on the Government.

If Shamima wants to dispute the claim, the onus is on her to go to Bangladesh and challenge their decision in court.

The UK government applied and followed Bangladesh law as it stood at the time.
Both the British and the Bangladeshi governments are then amiss, if they really believe nationality has anything to do with crime, beliefs or terrorist activity. As Begum technically has no criminal record, how do you reach the conclusion Begum was 'a terrorist'? The correct treatment as a teenager who WAS a British citizen (and Bangladesh bans dual nationality) and trafficked and sexually exploited as a CHILD by unscrupulous organised characters, one acting as a double agent spy for both Canada and ( who else is unclear), who knowingly radicalised and recruited young Muslim background schoolchildren into enforced marriage and captivity (no, they had no freedom of choice or movement). Under UK law, an underage adult or child CANNOT consent to being trafficked abroad.

The correct solution is to end this shameful debacle and bring Begum back to the UK to face trial at the Old Bailey, if there are any criminal charges to face, which might be moot.
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Old 26th November 2022, 06:01 AM   #956
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Bangladesh is trying to break its own laws because they don't want a terrorist in their country anymore than we do. Governments are not infallible or all powerful which is why countries such as us and Bangladesh have a court system to provide checks on the Government.

If Shamima wants to dispute the claim, the onus is on her to go to Bangladesh and challenge their decision in court.

The UK government applied and followed Bangladesh law as it stood at the time.
No that is what the UK government says is happening, Bangladesh is quite clear that they will use their interpretation of their laws to make decisions about whether someone is Bangladesh or not. Would you expect the UK government to be bound by a Bangladesh government department's decision as to who is a UK citizen?
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Old 26th November 2022, 06:04 AM   #957
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Oh ok has it been proven that she was trafficked "by unscrupulous characters one acting as a double agent spy for Canada"?

Begum's own words say she was fully aware of what she was signing up for. She knew the group and what they stood for and what they were doing. She knew they were executing people for the "crime" of being gay etc. Two years after joining them, when she went into the camp, she still stated she didn't regret her actions and the murders carried out by the group didn't faze her.

The correct solution is to keep this unrepentant terrorist rotting in the camp in Syria.
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Old 26th November 2022, 06:13 AM   #958
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Oh ok has it been proven that she was trafficked "by unscrupulous characters one acting as a double agent spy for Canada"?

Begum's own words say she was fully aware of what she was signing up for. She knew the group and what they stood for and what they were doing. She knew they were executing people for the "crime" of being gay etc. Two years after joining them, when she went into the camp, she still stated she didn't regret her actions and the murders carried out by the group didn't faze her.

The correct solution is to keep this unrepentant terrorist rotting in the camp in Syria.

15 year olds are unfortunately often targets of sex traffickers, and very sadly grooming and then the following abuse does screw with peoples' values and rationality, sometimes for the rest of their lives.

I think it is beholden on the UK that when one of our citizens has been a victim of sex trafficking to do everything possible to help them recover, including repatriating them back to the UK as quickly as possible.
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Old 26th November 2022, 06:13 AM   #959
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Oh ok has it been proven that she was trafficked "by unscrupulous characters one acting as a double agent spy for Canada"?

Begum's own words say she was fully aware of what she was signing up for. She knew the group and what they stood for and what they were doing. She knew they were executing people for the "crime" of being gay etc. Two years after joining them, when she went into the camp, she still stated she didn't regret her actions and the murders carried out by the group didn't faze her.

The correct solution is to keep this unrepentant terrorist rotting in the camp in Syria.
If she was trafficked to a place were there were a lot of dead people, just seeing them is hardly something she could avoid or could be called a criminal offence, as your eyes often act quite unconsciously and are drawn to all sort of things without your having any criminal intent in so doing.

The new evidence is indeed the 'Five Eyes' intelligence services, who seem to have known about the child trafficking all along, and there is even a book about the specific issue.

See this video here from ITV Good Morning Britain, in which the author explains it.

Quote:
A spy working for Canadian intelligence smuggled Shamima Begum and her two friends from Bethnal Green into Syria and Britain later conspired with Canada to cover up its role, an explosive new book has claimed. Scotland Yard was told that the teenagers were trafficked into Syria by a people-smuggler who was a double agent working for both Islamic State and Canadian intelligence.An inquiry was demanded last night as it emerged that Canada knew about the teenagers’ fate but kept silent while the Metropolitan Police ran a frantic, international search for the trio.
Broadcast on 31/08/22
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 26th November 2022, 06:36 AM   #960
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Oh ok, so not proven then. I stand by my previous comments.
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