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Old 20th November 2022, 08:58 AM   #1521
Elaedith
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I do not have time right now to read the report linked to here, but it is apparently an exposé of the origins of the powerful movement to normalise transgender ideology in law and culture.

https://twitter.com/emeriticus/statu...66129737031681

The Transgender Leviathan

I can't link to the full 40-page report, but there is a link to the pdf on the second link.

"The amount of money involved is staggering; the number of powerful individuals involved is many and includes Republicans and Democrats. There are so many PACs and NGOs and donors involved that it might be easier to create a list of power entities that aren’t involved."
The report will be automatically rejected by many because of its source.

I had a quick skim through, and it appears to be a collation of information that has already been discussed/published elsewhere in multiple sources. Not sure there is anything really new in it, although I haven't read it all.
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Old 20th November 2022, 10:02 AM   #1522
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Yes, I could tell that from the tone of the promotion. I've never known anywhere quite like this place for promoting argumentum ad hominem as if it wasn't a clear logical fallacy.
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Old 20th November 2022, 10:56 AM   #1523
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I do not have time right now to read the report linked to here, but it is apparently an exposé of the origins of the powerful movement to normalise transgender ideology in law and culture.

https://twitter.com/emeriticus/statu...66129737031681

The Transgender Leviathan

I can't link to the full 40-page report, but there is a link to the pdf on the second link.

"The amount of money involved is staggering; the number of powerful individuals involved is many and includes Republicans and Democrats. There are so many PACs and NGOs and donors involved that it might be easier to create a list of power entities that aren’t involved."
Does seem less about "follow the science" than "follow the money", doesn't it.
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Old 20th November 2022, 11:01 AM   #1524
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Does seem less about "follow the science" than "follow the money", doesn't it.
I think this will become clear as more and more countries with public health care systems depart from the unconditional affirmation-only approach (especially for minors) due to lack of evidence, and the US (where many profit from the approach) becomes more and more an outlier.
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Old 20th November 2022, 11:18 AM   #1525
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Seems an age since the first incarnation of this thread, and someone insisting that there were so few trans people that nobody at all in the medical or indeed other profession would be promoting it for monetary gain.
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Old 20th November 2022, 11:18 AM   #1526
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
I think this will become clear as more and more countries with public health care systems depart from the unconditional affirmation-only approach (especially for minors) due to lack of evidence, and the US (where many profit from the approach) becomes more and more an outlier.
Although I don't doubt that there are many powerful people with closeted desires who have skin the game, and any number of immoral and amoral careerists who stand to make money out of the "movement", the sheer scale of the "investment" in it looks more like a coordinated propaganda campaign, referred to in military intelligence jargon as a 'psychological operation'.
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Old 20th November 2022, 03:16 PM   #1527
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Naomi Cunningham asked 'why this?'
https://ncunningham.wordpress.com/2021/04/24/why-this/

which triggered a very thoughtful and eloquent response here from a woman barrister
https://medium.com/@cyclefree2/why-this-7221bc795af0

ending with

Quote:
Men with power bossing women around. This is a very old, very sour wine being offered in a new bottle.
Both well worth reading.
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Old 20th November 2022, 04:53 PM   #1528
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If the background to this is as reported, this is glorious.

https://twitter.com/sotiridi/status/1593662172151808004

Man in a dress allegedly took his penis out and exposed himself to a young girl in the Ladies' bathroom. A bunch of mothers grabbed him and dragged him, none too gently, out of the building.

No doubt this will be recorded as an "anti-trans hate incident" or whatever the equivalent is in Brazil. But if the authorities are going to enable men like this and fail to protect women's rights, then this is going to have to be the solution.
That's kinda barbaric, I don't think it's glorious at all.

edit:
just doublechecked it, apparently it's fake

Someone in the same feed posted this

https://www.newtral.es/mujer-trans-n...ideo/20221118/

you gotta check your sources before believing stuff.

run it through google translate if you wish.

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Old 22nd November 2022, 06:24 PM   #1529
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One wonders why trans men are so statistically underrepresented in the NHL

https://twitter.com/NHL/status/1595076956852260865



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Old 22nd November 2022, 06:27 PM   #1530
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Well, where I come from, hockey is almost exclusively a girls' game...
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Old 23rd November 2022, 02:45 AM   #1531
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I liked this response:


Elonmuskjr@Elonmuskjuni
Replying to @NHL


If trans women are women and trans men are men...
1) are women trans women?
2) are men trans men?
3) are men women, are women men?
4) if it's a spectrum aren't there really no women and no men, and therefore no trans women and no trans men?


Spot on!
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Old 23rd November 2022, 12:06 PM   #1532
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
I liked this response:


Elonmuskjr@Elonmuskjuni
Replying to @NHL


If trans women are women and trans men are men...
1) are women trans women?
2) are men trans men?
3) are men women, are women men?
4) if it's a spectrum aren't there really no women and no men, and therefore no trans women and no trans men?


Spot on!
The Venn diagram in which all trans men are men but not all (or most, if you like) men are trans men is easy to imagine. As much as I support some critiques of trans activists, it doesn't work to argue that it makes no sense to say that trans women are women because obviously not all women are trans women.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 02:00 PM   #1533
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What gets me, more and more, is the widespread tacit acknowledgement, by the trans and trans-inclusionist community, that transwomen are not actually women.

I see this on reddit sometimes, from users and communities that are ostensibly pro-trans. Instead of identifying as one gender or the other, they'll identify as "trans". Which kind of defeats the whole point of a "valid lived identity". And the whole point of social transition as a medical treatment for a valid lived mental disorder.

But it was the NHL's announcement of a trans division that really brought it home to me. If trans-inclusionists subscribe to the "gender, not sex" position (which I understand very few do), then there's no need for a separate trans division. Trans folks can simply compete in the existing male and female divisions appropriate to their sex.

On the other hand, if trans-inclusionists subscribe to the sex/gender equivocation, then a separate sports division for trans folks is blatantly transphobic. It says, quite clearly, that a transwoman's womanhood is not a valid lived condition. It tells the gender dysphoric transwoman, bluntly, that he is not actually a woman.

No self-respecting trans person should lower themselves to playing in such a division. Far from being celebrated for creating such a division, the NHL should be getting canceled right now. Unless...

LJ has complained from time to time about the implication that (many) trans folks are cosplaying a parody or caricature of identity. Like fandom cosplayers. Or furries. But this premise has a lot of explanatory power, when it comes to people who identify as trans, or allow others to identify them as trans. These "out and proud" transwomen don't want to be seen as women. They want to be seen as transwomen - i.e., men playing at being women. It's a form of virtue signaling, or activism carpetbagging.

And we can guess at how pervasive this gender ID fakery is, in the trans movement, by the curious case of the dog in the night-time: The lack of serious push-back from the trans-activist community, against the NHL's trans division, and similar such things.

And I think this also goes a long way towards explaining the total repudiation of "passing" as a measure of the transgender identity's merit. There are far too many transwomen who have no interest in passing as women. They want to present as men playing at being women. Modern transwomanhood in the public eye has more to do with drag queenery, than with actual womanhood.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 03:56 PM   #1534
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And I think this also goes a long way towards explaining the total repudiation of "passing" as a measure of the transgender identity's merit. There are far too many transwomen who have no interest in passing as women. They want to present as men playing at being women. Modern transwomanhood in the public eye has more to do with drag queenery, than with actual womanhood.
I'm pretty sure that's a recent phenomenon.

As one of very few blokes who was openly friendly with trans women in the 1970s, they were 100% into appearing to be as feminine as possible and every single one was saving money to go to Thailand for GRS.

Now, those ones seem to be a minority.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 05:23 PM   #1535
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And that is precisely the problem. When there were only a handful of transwomen around and these were trying their damndest to appear and behave as if they were women, women were inclined, usually, to give them the benefit of the doubt and not make a fuss even though we usually (or at least often) knew it was a pretence. We did the "be kind" thing because it didn't really damage us to do that, or so we thought.

Now we're being besieged by men either LARPing their own pornified fantasy of womanhood or simply not trying at all - like Eddie Izzard or that ridiculous Alex Drummond. And they're shouting at us to "be kind" to these bullies, and justifying this by insisting that "transwomen have been using women's intimate spaces for decades".

Well, maybe it was a big mistake to "be kind" to the original cohort, because it turns out that they were the thin end of the wedge and look where "being kind" has got us.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 05:29 PM   #1536
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LJ does actual dysphorics a disservice with his "valid lived condition" rhetoric. They were never the thin end of any wedge, until the modern trans activist movement decided to use them as a stalking horse for misogyny and perversion.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 05:40 PM   #1537
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I honestly don't know any more. In hindsight, although I wouldn't describe Andrew "Roz" Kaveney as thin by any stretch of the imagination, he's certainly been flouncing around in kaftans and a bad wig since at least the 1990s. A lot of the late 20th century transwomen were most certainly raving AGPs, they just hid it better. That doesn't mean they didn't have dysphoria, but it's not that simple.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 07:04 PM   #1538
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
No.

You cherry-pick a few clowns and claim they're the only experts that matter, because they agree with your outlandish views.

The vast majority of the world thinks your position is nonsense, and the majority of mainstream medicine is at least cautious of the shift to allowing puberty-blockers and surgery at young ages.

You probably need to check out the current position of the American Psychiatric Association regarding transgender identity, and whether the APA now considers transgender identity to be a valid condition (like, say, homosexuality is now considered to be, fortunately) or a mental health disorder/deviancy. (As a hint though: it’s the former.)

I mean, you’re entirely free to consider the APA - which is the de facto world authority on what is or is not a mental health disorder - to be “clowns” with “outlandish views” (and incidentally, every other mainstream psychiatric body is now in line with the APA’s position on this matter). You’re totally free to come to that sort of bafflingly illogical conclusion, if you so choose. Similarly, you’re entirely free to hyperbolise about the “vast majority of the world” (LOL) denying transgender identity. But to those “arguments” I’d point out: 1) the APA is in a vastly better position - in terms of expertise, experience and knowledge - about this than the likes of you and any other abjectly inexpert sideshow “experts”; and 2) the “vast majority of the world” thought that black people were intellectually inferior to white people, right up until the 1950s, and the “vast majority of the world” considered homosexuality to be a mental health disorder/deviancy, right up to the 1960s/1970s (and chillingly, we’re currently witnessing exactly this viewpoint being officially communicated by Qatar). So, y’know….

But yeah, feel free to knock yourself out thinking your personal inexpert view on transgender identity trumps that of the experts, not to mention that of virtually all westernised governments/parliaments (all of whom of course take extensive expert advice on related policy goals and legislation). Fortunately, just as with homosexuality, views such as yours will, within 20-30 years, be considered by the mainstream to be archaic at best, and deeply offensive at worst (apart probably from a few remaining small pockets of denialists in institutions such as far-right reactionary politics or the Catholic Church). So maybe you should go ahead and enjoy promoting your inexpert and expert-contradicting viewpoint all you like, before it becomes considered toxic and unacceptable. Enjoy!
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Old 23rd November 2022, 07:07 PM   #1539
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And by the way, it’s entirely rational that the mechanisms to provide support/therapy/medicine/surgery to older children and young adults are a work in progress. Mistakes have been made, for sure, but the profession is constantly learning and updating. The attempts of you and others here to weaponise this situation and somehow present it as a validation of your overall denial of transgender identity is as laughable as it is incorrect.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 09:53 PM   #1540
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Mistakes have been made, for sure,
What were these mistakes?
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Old 23rd November 2022, 10:33 PM   #1541
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
What were these mistakes?

I think they’re fairly well-documented. I suspect you know them very well.

The underpinning point here is that this particular area, in this particular age group, is extremely difficult to get right all the time. For instance, YA A who presents as transgender might actually have complex mental health issues but they’ve convinced themselves that their problems all stem from gender dysphoria. But the next YA in line, YA B, might indeed have genuine and deep-seated transgender identity. Both YAs might present very similarly, even with in-depth counselling and support.

If both these individuals were provided with transgender-affirming medical or surgical intervention, this might very well be appropriate for B but entirely inappropriate - and potentially very physically/mentally damaging - for A. But if it were decided that no intervention at all should be provided to either patient…. Well this would very probably turn out to be the optimal outcome for A, but potentially catastrophic for B (and extreme mental anguish, including more-than-occasional suicides, can be the sad outcome in such a scenario, although of course even YAs with deep-seated transgender identity can have mental problems unrelated to gender dysphoria, further clouding the issue).

In short, this is a really difficult area to get right, and in fact it’s practically impossible to give the appropriate therapies/interventions to each individual 100% of the time. There will, unfortunately always be a certain proportion of tragic misjudgements in either direction: the goal must be to learn and evolve in order to minimise such occurrences.

However, the mistakes and misjudgements that have been made and will continue to be made (albeit hopefully in ever-diminishing numbers) are categorically not a valid reason to stop offering transgender services to this age group. And neither are they in any way a vindication of the denialism exhibited in this thread.
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Old 24th November 2022, 04:14 AM   #1542
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
The Venn diagram in which all trans men are men but not all (or most, if you like) men are trans men is easy to imagine. As much as I support some critiques of trans activists, it doesn't work to argue that it makes no sense to say that trans women are women because obviously not all women are trans women.
You are correct about that.

There is however something not quite coherent about the idea of gender and sex being a spectrum and transing, isn´t there? In order to trans, to switch, it needs to be binary, doesn´t it?
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Old 24th November 2022, 04:51 AM   #1543
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
You are correct about that.

There is however something not quite coherent about the idea of gender and sex being a spectrum and transing, isn´t there? In order to trans, to switch, it needs to be binary, doesn´t it?

Well firstly, the Latin-derived prefix “trans-“ in no way means binary switching from one state to another (the word “transport”, for example, simply means to move (strictly, carry) something/someone away from one place and towards another place).

And secondly, experts now agree that gender is a fluid spectrum, rather than simply the two binary states of man and woman (which both lie at the extreme opposite ends of the gender spectrum).

So “transgender”, in its currently understood definition, means nothing more or less than “moving away from the gender which matches sex assigned at birth”. Thus, for example, a female identifying as non-binary is transgender because they have moved their gender away from the woman gender. Similarly, a female identifying as “man” is transgender - it’s merely that this person’s transition has been “further” than that of the previous example.
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Old 24th November 2022, 12:02 PM   #1544
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This might be of interest.

https://twitter.com/mgtmccartney/sta...04217049747456
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Old 24th November 2022, 12:14 PM   #1545
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
You are correct about that.

There is however something not quite coherent about the idea of gender and sex being a spectrum and transing, isn´t there? In order to trans, to switch, it needs to be binary, doesn´t it?
I think I agree with LJ in post #1543.
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Old 24th November 2022, 12:23 PM   #1546
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think that vaping might be on that list at some point in the future.
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Old 24th November 2022, 01:10 PM   #1547
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This also might be of interest - the Grauniad finally did some journalism on the topic
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ender-identity
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Old 24th November 2022, 01:17 PM   #1548
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
I think I agree with LJ in post #1543.
I don't. For one thing, he's lying about gender experts saying gender is a spectrum. For another, his appeal to linguistic essentialism is a red herring.

For another thing, so what if gender is a spectrum? I'm all for it, actually. From tomboy to femboy, from bulldyke to drag queen, from effeminate to macho to all the points in between. Hack the gender. Queer it up!

Because none of that actually matters to public policy or human rights. It still comes down to transcending sex. And transsexuality is still binary, not because trans is binary, but because sex is binary.
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Old 24th November 2022, 01:35 PM   #1549
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And secondly, experts now agree that gender is a fluid spectrum, rather than simply the two binary states of man and woman (which both lie at the extreme opposite ends of the gender spectrum).
This is disingenuous, as it impliclitly equates sex and gender. Experts overwhelmingly agree that sex is binary. Sex is not a spectrum. There might be some who claim sex is a spectrum, but the previous consensus still stands, despite the best efforts of some to obfuscate and conflate the issues of sex and gender.

There isn't a universal gender identity spectrum, either. The very term gender identity is associated with LGBTQIA+ identifications, but the LGB identities are sexual identities, not gender identities. There is arguably a transgender identity spectrum, but only for the subset of trans- or non-binary identifying individuals. The transgender identity spectrum doesn't even map onto sexuality, as there are androphile and gynephile transwomen and transmen.

For everyone else, how men and women relate to gender roles or behaviours considered by popular stereotype or research to be more typical of men or women do not constitute stable identities. Pretending that they do, or that someone might be more male because they like x, is nonsense and totally unhelpful for children, teenagers and adults.
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Old 24th November 2022, 01:58 PM   #1550
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I think they’re fairly well-documented. I suspect you know them very well.

The underpinning point here is that this particular area, in this particular age group, is extremely difficult to get right all the time. For instance, YA A who presents as transgender might actually have complex mental health issues but they’ve convinced themselves that their problems all stem from gender dysphoria. But the next YA in line, YA B, might indeed have genuine and deep-seated transgender identity. Both YAs might present very similarly, even with in-depth counselling and support.

If both these individuals were provided with transgender-affirming medical or surgical intervention, this might very well be appropriate for B but entirely inappropriate - and potentially very physically/mentally damaging - for A. But if it were decided that no intervention at all should be provided to either patient…. Well this would very probably turn out to be the optimal outcome for A, but potentially catastrophic for B (and extreme mental anguish, including more-than-occasional suicides, can be the sad outcome in such a scenario, although of course even YAs with deep-seated transgender identity can have mental problems unrelated to gender dysphoria, further clouding the issue).

In short, this is a really difficult area to get right, and in fact it’s practically impossible to give the appropriate therapies/interventions to each individual 100% of the time. There will, unfortunately always be a certain proportion of tragic misjudgements in either direction: the goal must be to learn and evolve in order to minimise such occurrences.

However, the mistakes and misjudgements that have been made and will continue to be made (albeit hopefully in ever-diminishing numbers) are categorically not a valid reason to stop offering transgender services to this age group.
How can you know that?

What we need to know is what proportion of YAs presenting with gender dysphoria are like A, and what proportion are like B. If you can't reliably tell the difference between A and B, and only a tiny percentage are like B, then that might be a good reason to stop offering transgender services to everybody.

If you do know the proportions, but there is then a large increase in people presenting, then are those proportions still the same?

In the absence of that information, how do we decide what the best treatment is?
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Old 24th November 2022, 02:38 PM   #1551
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Really, LGB and TQIA+ shouldn't be part of the same coalition, nor on the same flag. LBG has more in common with BIPOC than with the genderqueer stuff.

And while I'm on the subject: Excepting paraphilias, "pansexual" and "omnisexual" are just variants of "bisexual" that equivocate (ignorantly) on sex vs gender.
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Old 24th November 2022, 02:59 PM   #1552
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a real slide at a training event.
https://twitter.com/BashanahHaBaAh/s...241152/photo/1

Props for 'Trandalf' and punning on the bridge of Khazad-Dum scene in the Fellowship of the Ring, tho'.
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Old 24th November 2022, 03:18 PM   #1553
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Originally Posted by Nick Terry View Post
a real slide at a training event.
https://twitter.com/BashanahHaBaAh/s...241152/photo/1

Props for 'Trandalf' and punning on the bridge of Khazad-Dum scene in the Fellowship of the Ring, tho'.
There was some sort of scandal at that event. Apparently 80% of the questions asked by delegates were 'transphobic' and caused the speaker to have a meltdown (probably because they had never been challenged before).

Given that 'transphobia' typically refers to questioning claims in a manner that should be part of normal academic and scientific debate, it might be a good sign.

ETA. The Royal College of Psychiatrists is 'appalled' by what happened, even though they haven't yet looked into what happened.

P.S. It appears from the slide title at the top they were meant to be discussing 'gender indentity'. Is that some new thing where your gender becomes indented?
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:07 PM   #1554
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One of the Twitter comments was "What happened? It sounds like you've already made your mind up it was bad. Why was it bad? Was the speaker hyper sensitive?"

The response to that from another commenter was "Gas lighting victim blaming comment. Unnecessary and very unkind. If the speaker was offended, then that is their valid lived experience."

I don't have anything to say about it, I just enjoyed seeing that phrase somewhere else for once.
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:40 PM   #1555
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Originally Posted by Nick Terry View Post
This also might be of interest - the Grauniad finally did some journalism on the topic
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ender-identity
Very interesting indeed. It’s not surprising that the majority of young girls seeking transition are autistic. Add the narrow focus of autism to gender dysphoria, clinicians who are happy to offer the “solution” of puberty blockers and hormones and “support” groups like Mermaids. It is no surprise that the number of very young girls seeking transition has exploded in recent years.

But, as I have said before, I think the tide is turning and a number of “reputable medical authorities” and governments are re-thinking public policy.

I have asked LondonJohn whether Tavistock was one such reputable authority. He hasn’t answered, but they were of course. Look how well that worked out.
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Old 24th November 2022, 07:42 PM   #1556
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Very interesting indeed. It’s not surprising that the majority of young girls seeking transition are autistic.
From the article:
"The Cass report stated that approximately one-third of children and young people being referred to the Tavistock had autism or other types of neurodiversity."

One third is not "the majority".
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Old 24th November 2022, 07:50 PM   #1557
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
From the article:
"The Cass report stated that approximately one-third of children and young people being referred to the Tavistock had autism or other types of neurodiversity."

One third is not "the majority".
Sorry, I read that as two-third. I should have read more closely.

Still, with a large proportion of those with autism and others suffering from bullying and other mental health issues, we are still, I believe, looking at very vulnerable young girls susceptible to quick solutions resulting from gender affirmation policies, which as I said, are being questioned.
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Old 25th November 2022, 02:14 AM   #1558
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Well firstly, the Latin-derived prefix “trans-“ in no way means binary switching from one state to another (the word “transport”, for example, simply means to move (strictly, carry) something/someone away from one place and towards another place).

And secondly, experts now agree that gender is a fluid spectrum, rather than simply the two binary states of man and woman (which both lie at the extreme opposite ends of the gender spectrum).

So “transgender”, in its currently understood definition, means nothing more or less than “moving away from the gender which matches sex assigned at birth”. Thus, for example, a female identifying as non-binary is transgender because they have moved their gender away from the woman gender. Similarly, a female identifying as “man” is transgender - it’s merely that this person’s transition has been “further” than that of the previous example.
I don´t think I have a gender identity, am I transgender? Agender? who has the authority to say one is transgender or not? If I say I am, that makes it right?
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Old 25th November 2022, 04:46 AM   #1559
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
I don´t think I have a gender identity, am I transgender? Agender? who has the authority to say one is transgender or not? If I say I am, that makes it right?
You might be a chimpanzee.
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Old 25th November 2022, 04:50 AM   #1560
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
You might be a chimpanzee.
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I don´t know but I think if you identify yourself as chimpgender and you look serious enough while you do it many would consider it under the trans umbrella, which seems to cover practically anyone who wants to be included.
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