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Old 24th November 2022, 12:15 AM   #161
arthwollipot
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Peterson just posted a happy snap with right wing conservative ex-Prime Minister Scott Morrison, who led the government so badly that we kicked him out in a landslide at the last election.
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Old 24th November 2022, 04:17 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Peterson just posted a happy snap with right wing conservative ex-Prime Minister Scott Morrison, who led the government so badly that we kicked him out in a landslide at the last election.
You can tell a man by the company he keeps.

Applies to both of them.
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Last edited by Norman Alexander; 24th November 2022 at 05:50 AM.
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Old 24th November 2022, 04:38 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
True.



I see Peterson is on Ancient Apocalypse with Graham Hancock, that's about his level.
Thanks for introducing me to that rabbit hole.

From The Guardian

"They’re drawn to Ancient Apocalypse, thanks in part to Hancock’s loud and persistent claims that his life’s work is being suppressed by Big Archaeology."
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:48 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
A view I would prefer to be in the sun light.
What "view"? That you and Peterson better understand the case of elective surgery being carried out on a consenting patient that anyone actually involved?

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
In every sense more worthy of analysis than election result denial or an innocent man should be executed where due process is sound.
What is this drivel supposed to mean?
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Old 24th November 2022, 11:42 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
True.

I see Peterson is on Ancient Apocalypse with Graham Hancock, that's about his level.
I remember going into a branch of Easons a few years ago, and finding a Hancock book in the history section. Asked the staff why it wasn't in the fantasy section with the rest of the obvious fiction.
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Old 24th November 2022, 11:44 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Huh. I had no idea.



source

Makes sense he's speaking to the ousted right-wing Coalition and the openly racist One Nation.
I assume that the last one is Pauline Hanson's One Person party, right?
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Old 24th November 2022, 01:20 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
What "view"? That you and Peterson better understand the case of elective surgery being carried out on a consenting patient that anyone actually involved?


What is this drivel supposed to mean?
There is a swathe of harm done by American surgeons which is driven by profit, greed, and they are fast becoming international outliers with the fast changing mood in the UK.
Maybe Peterson is correct to use emotive language to alert people to the danger posed their own sons and daughters.

The analogy I tried for was to suggest Scalia was a far more dangerous man than Peterson yet immune to sanction.

Maybe Peterson is simply reminding of the common sense in

"First do no harm."

Last edited by jimbob; 25th November 2022 at 12:57 AM. Reason: Correcting spelling of Peterson at the poster's request
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Old 24th November 2022, 03:54 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
There is a swathe of harm done by American surgeons which is driven by profit, greed, and they are fast becoming international outliers with the fast changing mood in the UK.
Maybe Peterson is correct to use emotive language to alert people to the danger posed their own sons and daughters.

The analogy I tried for was to suggest Scalia was a far more dangerous man than Peterson yet immune to sanction.

Maybe Peteron is simply reminding of the common sense in

"First do no harm."
You seem to be assuming that if one or two plastic surgeons do a few bad boob or tummy-tuck jobs then EVERY plastic surgeon is a groomer and mutilator of children. That would be quite a leap!
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:01 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
I assume that the last one is Pauline Hanson's One Person party, right?
Indeed, though they actually have two currently sitting senators - Pauline Hanson and Malcolm Roberts. As Norman said, the company you keep.
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Old 24th November 2022, 09:46 PM   #170
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Quote:
While checking in on Scott Morrison’s Facebook to see his statement regarding the Bell inquiry I noticed he’d posted a selfie with Jordan Peterson last night, saying he’d enjoyed meeting up and “having a chat” with him.

“He makes a lot of sense,” Morrison added.
source

If Scotty from Marketing says you make a lot of sense, you really want to take a hard look at what you're saying.
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Old 24th November 2022, 11:18 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
source

If Scotty from Marketing says you make a lot of sense, you really want to take a hard look at what you're saying.
True dat!
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Old 25th November 2022, 05:10 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
There is a swathe of harm done by American surgeons which is driven by profit, greed, and they are fast becoming international outliers with the fast changing mood in the UK.
Like medically unnecessary circumcision?
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Maybe Peterson is correct to use emotive language to alert people to the danger posed their own sons and daughters.
Or maybe he is merely, as usual, spouting emotive lies to get his fans agitated.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Maybe Peterson is simply reminding of the common sense in

"First do no harm."
Perhaps Peterson should shut up and drop causing harm them?
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Old 25th November 2022, 11:38 PM   #173
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Circumcision was a custom before civil engineering.
I have a simple view that elective surgery should save lives and mobility and little else.
Peterson might agree, I plan to check his body of work on the subject because I like the way he seems to view data as queen.
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Old 25th November 2022, 11:43 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Circumcision was a custom before civil engineering.
I have a simple view that elective surgery should save lives and mobility and little else.
Peterson might agree, I plan to check his body of work on the subject because I like the way he seems to view data as queen.
I suspect you don't understand what "elective" means here.

Highlighted is probably not elective at all but often an emergency.

Elective surgery means it can wait until medical resources are available, e.g. boob jobs and butt lifts.

The problem is deciding what is critically necessary and what is not, and who gets to decide that. Setting priorities. And it is not as simple as "elective or not". There are degrees of necessity, especially to do with timing. For example, a kidney transplant in some medical jurisdictions is considered elective. The patient can supposedly live for some time without it or use dialysis, while they find a donor kidney. Other patients may be rated more urgent than others. So it is not an emergency, ergo "elective". But I'm pretty sure such patients don't see that predicament as being anywhere near the same class as an elective butt-lift. The situation is very important for them, and the medical procedure gets more and more urgent over time.
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Old 25th November 2022, 11:52 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
What "view"? That you and Peterson better understand the case of elective surgery being carried out on a consenting patient that anyone actually involved?
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I suspect you don't understand what "elective" means here.

Highlighted is probably not elective at all but often an emergency.

Elective surgery means it can wait until medical resources are available, e.g. boob jobs and butt lifts.

The problem is deciding what is critically necessary and what is not, and who gets to decide that. Setting priorities. And it is not as simple as "elective or not". There are degrees of necessity, especially to do with timing. For example, a new kidney in some medical jurisdictions is considered elective. The patient can supposedly live for some time without it or use dialysis, while they find a donor kidney. So it is not an emergency, ergo "elective". But I'm pretty sure such patients don't see that predicament as being anywhere near the same class as an elective butt-lift. The situation is very important for them, and the medical procedure gets more and more urgent over time.

Back to Peterson, as related to elective/cosmetic surgery...

I think Peterson likely gets the idea that saying "I want bigger boobs to look more attractive" is a lot different than saying "I want you to lop my penis off so I can be a girl". I think that is why he is judgemental of say, the surgeon who mutilated Ellen Page (as was discussed earlier). Of course some would say that what the surgeon did was wonderful for her...and helped her transition to the man she wished to be. To each their own, I suppose....but I get his reasoning.
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Old 25th November 2022, 11:56 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I think Peterson likely gets the idea that saying "I want bigger boobs to look more attractive" is a lot different than saying "I want you to lop my penis off so I can be a girl". I think that is why he is judgemental of say, the surgeon who mutilated Ellen Page. Of course some would say that what the surgeon did was wonderful for her...and helped her transition to the man she wished to be.
Mutilated is the correct word in my world view.
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Old 26th November 2022, 02:16 AM   #177
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Is.there anything at all that Jordan Peterson had said that isn't codswallop?
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Old 26th November 2022, 02:29 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Back to Peterson, as related to elective/cosmetic surgery...

I think Peterson likely gets the idea that saying "I want bigger boobs to look more attractive" is a lot different than saying "I want you to lop my penis off so I can be a girl". I think that is why he is judgemental of say, the surgeon who mutilated Ellen Page (as was discussed earlier). Of course some would say that what the surgeon did was wonderful for her...and helped her transition to the man she wished to be. To each their own, I suppose....but I get his reasoning.
The fact that you are having to guess what he means suggests that he did not supply reasoning.

I have been saying since the early eighties that I doubt that surgery is really the best option for trans gender people.

All that time I have been able to state my position clearly and unemotionally, supply clear reasoning for my position and accept the possibility that I may be wrong.

Peterson appears to be incapable of any of those things.
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Old 26th November 2022, 03:38 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Is.there anything at all that Jordan Peterson had said that isn't codswallop?
Not since he got famous.
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Old 26th November 2022, 04:48 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Circumcision was a custom before civil engineering.
So was slavery. By your "logic" that's acceptable too?


Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I have a simple view that elective surgery should save lives and mobility and little else.
So no cosmetic surgery or pain reduction or quality of life procedures?


Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Peterson might agree, I plan to check his body of work on the subject because I like the way he seems to view data as queen.
So you don't even bother to understand what Peterson actually says?
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Old 26th November 2022, 04:49 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Mutilated is the correct word in my world view.
And yet you consider circumcision fine....
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Old 26th November 2022, 04:51 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Is.there anything at all that Jordan Peterson had said that isn't codswallop?
He opposes the death penalty, though in a half-baked mixture of libertarian and cost grounds.
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Old 26th November 2022, 05:04 AM   #183
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Jordan Peterson om the Colorado shooting:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uoZuwyTQQeE


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Old 26th November 2022, 01:29 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Thanks for introducing me to that rabbit hole.

From The Guardian

"They’re drawn to Ancient Apocalypse, thanks in part to Hancock’s loud and persistent claims that his life’s work is being suppressed by Big Archaeology."
BS-artists like Peterson very often find Atlantis and ancient-aliens-type pseudohistory compelling because the circus around it is a practical expression of their ideal in which the expertise of individuals who have thoroughly studied a subject and drawn conclusions based on painstakingly documented evidence is openly devalued in favor of strong opinions informed by little more than ideological convictions and emotional hangups. If you strongly feel that cloud looks like a turtle, or that wall-relief looks like a spaceship, who's to say that there ISN'T a species of massive floating white sky-turtles, or that the ancient civilization that claimed in their own words on the same wall that they were depicting the king's house WEREN'T actually carving a picture of a spaceship? Meteorologists and archaeologists? Those people are Them, they suppress the pure truth on behalf of the (((globalist))) agenda.
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Old 26th November 2022, 01:36 PM   #185
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..
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Old 26th November 2022, 01:58 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Why do some consider circumcision the same as say, having your dong lopped off to become a girl, or having your tits chopped off to become a man?

Consider it a rhetorical question, because this is not the topic for circumcision and body mutilation debate. But I see this argument a lot.
I'm not sure it works that way that you get to make an argument in the form of a question but then declare any answers out-of-bounds because "it's a rhetorical question". Answering a rhetorical question is usually the most direct way to rebut the rhetorical argument it makes.

If this "is not the topic for" challenging your assertion that those two things aren't the same, then it's not the topic for making that assertion to begin with.
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Old 26th November 2022, 02:09 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
If this "is not the topic for" challenging your assertion that those two things aren't the same, then it's not the topic for making that assertion to begin with.

Well, I didn't make the assertion that they were the same, someone else did. I was just responding to what was being implied.

But I'll delete my comment, nonetheless. Not worth a big debate.
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Old 26th November 2022, 02:35 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Well, I didn't make the assertion that they were the same, someone else did.
Reread my post?
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Old 26th November 2022, 06:36 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
BS-artists like Peterson very often find Atlantis and ancient-aliens-type pseudohistory compelling because the circus around it is a practical expression of their ideal in which the expertise of individuals who have thoroughly studied a subject and drawn conclusions based on painstakingly documented evidence is openly devalued in favor of strong opinions informed by little more than ideological convictions and emotional hangups. If you strongly feel that cloud looks like a turtle, or that wall-relief looks like a spaceship, who's to say that there ISN'T a species of massive floating white sky-turtles, or that the ancient civilization that claimed in their own words on the same wall that they were depicting the king's house WEREN'T actually carving a picture of a spaceship? Meteorologists and archaeologists? Those people are Them, they suppress the pure truth on behalf of the (((globalist))) agenda.
This.
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Old 26th November 2022, 06:44 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
BS-artists like Peterson very often find Atlantis and ancient-aliens-type pseudohistory compelling because the circus around it is a practical expression of their ideal in which the expertise of individuals who have thoroughly studied a subject and drawn conclusions based on painstakingly documented evidence is openly devalued in favor of strong opinions informed by little more than ideological convictions and emotional hangups. If you strongly feel that cloud looks like a turtle, or that wall-relief looks like a spaceship, who's to say that there ISN'T a species of massive floating white sky-turtles, or that the ancient civilization that claimed in their own words on the same wall that they were depicting the king's house WEREN'T actually carving a picture of a spaceship? Meteorologists and archaeologists? Those people are Them, they suppress the pure truth on behalf of the (((globalist))) agenda.
The strong feelings stem from the feeling of being an outsider, a rebel, a layman savant.
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Old 26th November 2022, 08:53 PM   #191
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I was guided onto Youtube shorts because -- I forget why. I probably wanted to watch tall women lift heavy things, which is cool for a while, but then I'm assaulted by boner-killing Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson clips. When these logic kings talk about religion, the inferences come out fast and hard. College student: "Mr. Shapiro, what's your favorite argument for God's existence?" Turns out his favorite argument is free will. Interesting move: Using something you can't prove in order to prove something else you can't prove all while speaking in Stroke. Peterson talks at a more human pace but the words have even less meaning, where literal and non-literal are conflated. Matt Browne had a sarcastic comparison to Peterson's resurrection of Christ schtick:

"My son's chosen fascination at the moment [is] a Japanese TV-series about these kind of powerful robots fighting Kaiju[?] -- but ultimately that's about people. And there are heroes and there are villains, and so is it 'true' that there are Kaiju and giant robots stomping around Tokoyo destroying things? Y'know, maybe not in 'everyday life,' but there are social problems and this story is getting at what it means to be a good person, and, like, **** off. It's a different meaning! Nobody's confused that classic literature has things which speak to the human condition in it. What people are talking about is that the events didn't happen. They didn't happen. They're fictional events. That's a different thing so Jordan [and other idiots], they're just endlessly, endlessly trying to expand the definition of words to incorporate so many different things to create this obfuscation cloud where you're able to say, 'well, there are truths in fiction, and so even if the Bible is a fiction, then isn't it true?' And you're just, like, this is sophistry of the most obvious kind."
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Old 26th November 2022, 11:03 PM   #192
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If you are dumb enough to pay to go listen to grifters like Peterson, they are smart enough to take your cash. P.T. Barnum would be so proud.
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Old 28th November 2022, 01:16 AM   #193
Gulliver Foyle
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I was guided onto Youtube shorts because -- I forget why. I probably wanted to watch tall women lift heavy things, which is cool for a while, but then I'm assaulted by boner-killing Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson clips. When these logic kings talk about religion, the inferences come out fast and hard. College student: "Mr. Shapiro, what's your favorite argument for God's existence?" Turns out his favorite argument is free will. Interesting move: Using something you can't prove in order to prove something else you can't prove all while speaking in Stroke. Peterson talks at a more human pace but the words have even less meaning, where literal and non-literal are conflated. Matt Browne had a sarcastic comparison to Peterson's resurrection of Christ schtick:

"My son's chosen fascination at the moment [is] a Japanese TV-series about these kind of powerful robots fighting Kaiju[?] -- but ultimately that's about people. And there are heroes and there are villains, and so is it 'true' that there are Kaiju and giant robots stomping around Tokoyo destroying things? Y'know, maybe not in 'everyday life,' but there are social problems and this story is getting at what it means to be a good person, and, like, **** off. It's a different meaning! Nobody's confused that classic literature has things which speak to the human condition in it. What people are talking about is that the events didn't happen. They didn't happen. They're fictional events. That's a different thing so Jordan [and other idiots], they're just endlessly, endlessly trying to expand the definition of words to incorporate so many different things to create this obfuscation cloud where you're able to say, 'well, there are truths in fiction, and so even if the Bible is a fiction, then isn't it true?' And you're just, like, this is sophistry of the most obvious kind."
Of course trying to claim free will proves the abrahamic god is stupid, because if free will exists it would mean that god can neither be all powerful nor all knowing.
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Old 28th November 2022, 01:21 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Of course trying to claim free will proves the abrahamic god is stupid, because if free will exists it would mean that god can neither be all powerful nor all knowing.

I don't think that is true at all. Free will does not suggest that the almighty does not already know your choice, just that he seeks not to influence it directly. Nor does it suggest that he could not alter the course, if he so chose. It is his choice to provide free will. By his grace.
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Old 28th November 2022, 03:05 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't think that is true at all. Free will does not suggest that the almighty does not already know your choice, just that he seeks not to influence it directly. Nor does it suggest that he could not alter the course, if he so chose. It is his choice to provide free will. By his grace.
Well, no. Free will depends on substitutability - the "I could have done otherwise."

If I am considering two options, having free will implies that both options are still possible at that time. If God knows in advance what I will choose then that implies that when I am considering those options it is already inevitable which one I would take and that all but one of the ostensible choices were already impossible.

In fact it would imply that every single thing we say and do in our lives was already inevitable before we were born.

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Old 28th November 2022, 03:13 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't think that is true at all. Free will does not suggest that the almighty does not already know your choice, just that he seeks not to influence it directly. Nor does it suggest that he could not alter the course, if he so chose. It is his choice to provide free will. By his grace.
...says the self-proclaimed atheist.
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Old 28th November 2022, 03:34 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Well, no. Free will depends on substitutability - the "I could have done otherwise."

If I am considering two options, having free will implies that both options are still possible at that time. If God knows in advance what I will choose then that implies that when I am considering those options it is already inevitable which one I would take and that all but one of the ostensible choices were already impossible.

In fact it would imply that every single thing we say and do in our lives was already inevitable before we were born.

No, it does not imply that you could not make a choice. Just that since he is all-knowing, he knows what that choice will be. Is this such a difficult concept?

God knows the past, present, and future. It has nothing to do with your free will.

Probably worthy of a new thread.
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Old 28th November 2022, 03:58 AM   #198
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
No, it does not imply that you could not make a choice. Just that since he is all-knowing, he knows what that choice will be. Is this such a difficult concept?

God knows the past, present, and future. It has nothing to do with your free will.

Probably worthy of a new thread.
no, it isn't. this has been rehashed too many times already.

If God knows what you are going to do, it means that you could not have done otherwise - the very definition of Free Will.
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Old 28th November 2022, 04:04 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
no, it isn't. this has been rehashed too many times already.

If God knows what you are going to do, it means that you could not have done otherwise - the very definition of Free Will.

No, it does not.

Being able to see the future does not mean you have directed it.

I don't know why people are confused by this concept.
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Old 28th November 2022, 04:37 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
No, it does not imply that you could not make a choice. Just that since he is all-knowing, he knows what that choice will be. Is this such a difficult concept?
You don't appear to have read what I wrote.

If there a fact of the matter of what I will do before I do it then obviously there is only one thing that I can do.

Free will requires that there is no fact about what I will do until I do it.

Look at this scenario. Bob has the choice of robbing an old lady or helping her across the street.

God know that Bob will rob the old lady rather than help her cross the street.

Is Bob able to help her across the street rather than rob her?

Is Bob able to refrain from robbing the old lady?

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