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Tags gun control , shooting incidents

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Old 22nd November 2022, 07:57 AM   #2161
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63693310

Bogative, you missed this one, odd, you're usually quite quick with shootings.

I didn't miss it. I read GVA's summary of the shooting and just assumed it was typical of the other 100 or so "bar/club incidents" that have occurred already this year. I thought I would give it a few days until more details were available before posting.

I can see now this is a special/rare mass shooting and I'm supposed to care more about this one compared to the other 600+ mass shootings that have already occurred this year.

On the day of and the day after this shooting, there were four other mass shootings with 6 people dead and 14 wounded. I see no reason to clutch my pearls over this one incident.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 08:46 AM   #2162
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And they were a morbidly obese man and a drag queen in heels, both unarmed.

CNN reporting they are set to replace the entire police force in Uvalde.
There is some indication that the New York Times screwed up the reporting and identified the woman as a drag performer when she's just a trans woman. They have a history of this and they initially misgendered the partner of the daughter of the man who tackled the shooter as well.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Very sadly I've found myself thinking that because of who the attack was aimed at some folk might not be entirely sympathetic.
A famous fake gay rights organization (that is made up of 95% cishet people and gets funding from far right sources) responded by showing concern for the LGB victims, after it was already known one of the victims was trans gender. They are also feigning indignation that anyone called them on it, saying they mean all the victims, even though they only specified the gay, lesbian, and bisexual ones.

And of course are all the false equivalencies about how other shootings that weren't targeted because of immutable personal characteristics, as if mainstream right wing terrorism is the same as turf wars. It's normalization. They call anyone not opposed to lgbtq publicly existing a direct threat to children, child rapists, and then pretend they have no idea why anyone would commit terrorism over it. 'You're child mutilating, child raping, groomers, but why would someone kill you over it?' Yeah, cowards all the way down. Morally, intellectually, physically.
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Last edited by tyr_13; 22nd November 2022 at 08:55 AM. Reason: missing c placed
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Old 22nd November 2022, 11:08 AM   #2163
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
There is some indication that the New York Times screwed up the reporting and identified the woman as a drag performer when she's just a trans woman. They have a history of this and they initially misgendered the partner of the daughter of the man who tackled the shooter as well.
To make this part more clear, the person who helped Fierro was reported as a drag queen when she is just a trans woman and Fierro's daughter's partner was Raymond Vance, a cishet man there for the first time with his girlfriend's family.

Many are confused why several straight people where there, and specifically a member of the military, and to them all I can say is, why not?
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Old 22nd November 2022, 12:43 PM   #2164
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
The Colorado Springs nightclub shooter has the same name as a guy arrested for a bomb threat last year.

In a rational society that would keep him from owning a ******* gun.
Same person, but parts of Colarado, including El Paso county, flout the state's 'Red Flag' laws through the“second amendment sanctuary” bollocks.
After all guns are more important than people to sone.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 01:17 PM   #2165
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
And of course are all the false equivalencies about how other shootings that weren't targeted because of immutable personal characteristics, as if mainstream right wing terrorism is the same as turf wars. It's normalization. They call anyone not opposed to lgbtq publicly existing a direct threat to children, child rapists, and then pretend they have no idea why anyone would commit terrorism over it. 'You're child mutilating, child raping, groomers, but why would someone kill you over it?' Yeah, cowards all the way down. Morally, intellectually, physically.
And this is consistent across the gamut of right-wing rhetoric, including things like the racist/anti-Semitic "white replacement" theory that they've recently mainstreamed. They are increasingly rhetorically portraying things like the existence of LGBTQ people and non-white immigration as quite literally existential threats, and this kind of treatment logically can only lead to incidents like this. When you are faced with an imminent threat of death, violent resistance is the only way to save your life, after all.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 02:20 PM   #2166
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
There is some indication that the New York Times screwed up the reporting and identified the woman as a drag performer when she's just a trans woman. They have a history of this and they initially misgendered the partner of the daughter of the man who tackled the shooter as well.
Yeah, but I'm sure you got my point: these weren't a pair of ninjas or Navy SEALS fresh from unarmed combat training who wandered by. It just takes balls of steel, even if obese or rocking high heels. Respect.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 07:53 PM   #2167
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
And this is consistent across the gamut of right-wing rhetoric, including things like the racist/anti-Semitic "white replacement" theory that they've recently mainstreamed. They are increasingly rhetorically portraying things like the existence of LGBTQ people and non-white immigration as quite literally existential threats, and this kind of treatment logically can only lead to incidents like this. When you are faced with an imminent threat of death, violent resistance is the only way to save your life, after all.
And like all those things they're too cowardly to even own their arguments. They're doubling down on the violent dehumanization here and denying they're doing it.

They are claiming they never called gay people groomers. No, they claim they call people who are grooming groomers.

What do they call grooming? Public participation by non-straight people. Existing as a trans gender person. Acknowledging the existence of non-straight people. 'We aren't calling you a groomer for being gay, we're calling you a groomer for existing while gay,' is such the pathetic **** take.

The drag show was of course what people who are 'honestly, really, double sure not defending the shooter' say was 'grooming'. I don't know what reason they have for thinking drag is inherently about sexual activity, but it just isn't. 'What do you mean it's not sexual? Why else would those gays give me these feelings?' Why would anyone seriously believe the idea that the mainstream GOP is calling a wide swath of society literal child sex trafficking rapists who are coming for YOUR child, but NOT advocating for violence?

For 'good' examples of this look at the vile things Tim Pool is saying, also known as 'the quiet part out loud'.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, but I'm sure you got my point: these weren't a pair of ninjas or Navy SEALS fresh from unarmed combat training who wandered by. It just takes balls of steel, even if obese or rocking high heels. Respect.
I mean, I know what you're saying, but the 'obese' guy is a retired major from the Army, with three tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan with two Bronze Stars.

To point out the balls on these two though, Fierro had to rush across half the bar to get up behind the shooter, who was heading to the patio a lot of people had escaped to. Fierro is six foot and 300 lbs, but the shooter is apparently at least several inches taller and weighing at least as much. Fierro grabbed the drag handle on the man's extensive body armor and dragged him down. Again, the very large man holding an AR pattern rifle. The shooter pulled out a handgun, which Fierro then took from him, and started pommeling him in the face with it, because the man was armored everywhere else. He kept doing that until police arrived.

There is a reason the shooter isn't in jail yet; he can't be released from the hospital because of how badly his face and head were beaten in.

So, yeah, Fierro and the woman who heel stomped the shooter (and the unidentified person who grabbed the rifle and pulled it away from reach), have steel bits. Yeah, it's what was needed. But Fierro was also an uncommon badass already with a lot of training.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 10:05 PM   #2168
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Actual grooming, as we've just seen from the conviction of a Republican, is something that happens in PRIVATE and SECRET, by definition.

The fact that these are Public Events disproves all claims about grooming - some people just hate it that being queer is no longer something to be ashamed about.
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Old 22nd November 2022, 10:23 PM   #2169
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Police confirming "multiple fatalities" at a Walmart near Norfolk this evening after an active shooting; breaking situation
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Old 22nd November 2022, 11:11 PM   #2170
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Another day in America.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 04:37 AM   #2171
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The American Disease has become so normalized that these spree shootings no longer even get reported in our news.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 04:41 AM   #2172
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The American Disease has become so normalized that these spree shootings no longer even get reported in our news.
And the more that occur, the more likely each of us is to be impacted. I lived near to that Wal-Mart for years and shopped there.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 05:22 AM   #2173
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I have said for years. You guys need to have loads of guns hanging next to fire extinguishers in malls so the good guys can grab them when the bad guys come along.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 05:24 AM   #2174
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I have said for years. You guys need to have loads of guns hanging next to fire extinguishers in malls so the good guys can grab them when the bad guys come along.
Seems only sensible.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 05:47 AM   #2175
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Seems only sensible.
It is sad that Americans don't care about the most vulnerable in society and leave them defenceless.

It is no wonder we see regular school shootings where victims are forbidden to own guns. Why, why, do legislators not think of the children and put a gun under every school desk.

Similarly drunks will find it hard to aim a pistol with any accuracy. Therefore bars should put a semi automatic guns, which spay bullets and are therefore more likely to hit the bad guy, under their tables.

Together with enough good guys armed we can eliminate gun crime.

Last edited by Lothian; 23rd November 2022 at 05:48 AM.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 06:48 AM   #2176
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I have said for years. You guys need to have loads of guns hanging next to fire extinguishers in malls so the good guys can grab them when the bad guys come along.
I suspect we don't have enough fire extinguishers, though.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 08:24 AM   #2177
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707 so far this year.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 09:56 AM   #2178
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https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/wal...-22/index.html

Another mass shooting in Virginia.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 10:12 AM   #2179
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/wal...-22/index.html

Another mass shooting in Virginia.
Already mentioned in the thread, but my initial reaction was: *sigh* Another one?
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Old 23rd November 2022, 11:18 AM   #2180
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
It is sad that Americans don't care about the most vulnerable in society and leave them defenceless.

It is no wonder we see regular school shootings where victims are forbidden to own guns. Why, why, do legislators not think of the children and put a gun under every school desk.

Similarly drunks will find it hard to aim a pistol with any accuracy. Therefore bars should put a semi automatic guns, which spay bullets and are therefore more likely to hit the bad guy, under their tables.

Together with enough good guys armed we can eliminate gun crime.
Not sure whether this was deliberate but a wonderful juxtaposition. I love the idea of spay* bullets, something all women should have access to; and I love the euphemism 'to hit under the table' to mean to spay.

*I am adopting a gender neutral meaning of spay.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 03:23 PM   #2181
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
Already mentioned in the thread, but my initial reaction was: *sigh* Another one?
One thing I'm triply concerned about this year is Black Friday, thinking that some kook(s) will take the opportunity that crowded stores will be a "target-rich environment".
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Old 23rd November 2022, 05:26 PM   #2182
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The drag show was of course what people who are 'honestly, really, double sure not defending the shooter' say was 'grooming'. I don't know what reason they have for thinking drag is inherently about sexual activity, but it just isn't. 'What do you mean it's not sexual?
My four great aunts were classic British working class, Tory voting Daily Express reading conservatives. We used to sit with them and watch Danny La Rue on television when we were kids. They loved Danny La Rue.

The skid marks who masquerade as conservatives these days would say they were grooming us.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 06:55 PM   #2183
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
My four great aunts were classic British working class, Tory voting Daily Express reading conservatives. We used to sit with them and watch Danny La Rue on television when we were kids. They loved Danny La Rue.

The skid marks who masquerade as conservatives these days would say they were grooming us.
Right?

Some fools get thirsty watching Misses Doubtfire and they have to make it everyone's problem?
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Old 23rd November 2022, 07:44 PM   #2184
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
707 so far this year.
Perhaps this thread needs to be renamed to "Today's Mass Shootings"
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Old 23rd November 2022, 08:25 PM   #2185
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What I wonder about is why we are having so many more of these shootings then inthe past..but that seems to be forgotten because there are no cheap political points to be made.
Some fools are making a big deal that the last two have occured in cities primarily known for their Military bases...Colorado Springs and the Air Force Academy,and Norfolk is of course, Navytown USA with the largest US Naval base there.I can't see any connection.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 10:14 PM   #2186
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What I wonder about is why we are having so many more of these shootings then inthe past..but that seems to be forgotten because there are no cheap political points to be made.
Some fools are making a big deal that the last two have occured in cities primarily known for their Military bases...Colorado Springs and the Air Force Academy,and Norfolk is of course, Navytown USA with the largest US Naval base there.I can't see any connection.
1. Ready availability of guns with almost no checks will always lead to more guns getting into the hands of people who are in no way fit to have them, and that leads to more gun violence and more spree-shootings.

2. The rise of the racist far right and the espousing of supporting extremist rhetoric by mainstream Repugnicans leads to the radicalization of more people who will then be motivated to commit that violence.

3. Mainstream Repugnicans demonize LGBTQ people and espouse hateful rhetoric, instilling fear of "the other" in their supporters. This motivates the crazies on the right to do things that they might no have done before

I have been warning about this for the last few years. The behavior of the Repugnican party is almost indistinguishable from that of a pre-fascist society. This has been repeated over and over in history - Chile under Pinochet, Argentina under Peron and later, Galtieri, Italy under Mussolini, and Nazi Germany under Hitler. They identify a boogeyman and make them into a threat and whip up their base into a frenzy... with political violence such as 1/6, the attempted kidnapping and murder of Gretchen Whitmer and spree shootings that target specific section of the community like Buffalo and Orlando, and synagogue attacks like Pittsburgh the inevitable result

In Chile and Argentina it was socialists (Salvador Allende's followers in Chile and Argentina) who were the boogeyman and they were frequently "disappeared"; in Italy it was communists; in Nazi German, communists, Jews, gays and the disabled Nazi Germany.

In the USA, its the LGBTQ community, Mexicans and to some extent, Jews and Blacks are the targets
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Old 23rd November 2022, 11:08 PM   #2187
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
1. Ready availability of guns with almost no checks will always lead to more guns getting into the hands of people who are in no way fit to have them, and that leads to more gun violence and more spree-shootings.

2. The rise of the racist far right and the espousing of supporting extremist rhetoric by mainstream Repugnicans leads to the radicalization of more people who will then be motivated to commit that violence.

3. Mainstream Repugnicans demonize LGBTQ people and espouse hateful rhetoric, instilling fear of "the other" in their supporters. This motivates the crazies on the right to do things that they might no have done before

I have been warning about this for the last few years. The behavior of the Repugnican party is almost indistinguishable from that of a pre-fascist society. This has been repeated over and over in history - Chile under Pinochet, Argentina under Peron and later, Galtieri, Italy under Mussolini, and Nazi Germany under Hitler. They identify a boogeyman and make them into a threat and whip up their base into a frenzy... with political violence such as 1/6, the attempted kidnapping and murder of Gretchen Whitmer and spree shootings that target specific section of the community like Buffalo and Orlando, and synagogue attacks like Pittsburgh the inevitable result

In Chile and Argentina it was socialists (Salvador Allende's followers in Chile and Argentina) who were the boogeyman and they were frequently "disappeared"; in Italy it was communists; in Nazi German, communists, Jews, gays and the disabled Nazi Germany.

In the USA, its the LGBTQ community, Mexicans and to some extent, Jews and Blacks are the targets
If you are right, that is sgood argument for private gun ownership.....we need t protect ourselves from the right wing crazies by whatever needs necessary.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 11:11 PM   #2188
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
1. Ready availability of guns with almost no checks will always lead to more guns getting into the hands of people who are in no way fit to have them, and that leads to more gun violence and more spree-shootings.

2. The rise of the racist far right and the espousing of supporting extremist rhetoric by mainstream Repugnicans leads to the radicalization of more people who will then be motivated to commit that violence.

3. Mainstream Repugnicans demonize LGBTQ people and espouse hateful rhetoric, instilling fear of "the other" in their supporters. This motivates the crazies on the right to do things that they might no have done before

I have been warning about this for the last few years. The behavior of the Repugnican party is almost indistinguishable from that of a pre-fascist society. This has been repeated over and over in history - Chile under Pinochet, Argentina under Peron and later, Galtieri, Italy under Mussolini, and Nazi Germany under Hitler. They identify a boogeyman and make them into a threat and whip up their base into a frenzy... with political violence such as 1/6, the attempted kidnapping and murder of Gretchen Whitmer and spree shootings that target specific section of the community like Buffalo and Orlando, and synagogue attacks like Pittsburgh the inevitable result

In Chile and Argentina it was socialists (Salvador Allende's followers in Chile and Argentina) who were the boogeyman and they were frequently "disappeared"; in Italy it was communists; in Nazi German, communists, Jews, gays and the disabled Nazi Germany.

In the USA, its the LGBTQ community, Mexicans and to some extent, Jews and Blacks are the targets
Not all these shooting are politically motiviated. The Norfolk shootings seem to me just someone going postal.
Anyway if you are right in the last half of your post, then that is a good argument for private good ownershipLSo the minorities can portect themselves from the crazies.
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Old 24th November 2022, 01:48 AM   #2189
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not all these shooting are politically motiviated. The Norfolk shootings seem to me just someone going postal.
Anyway if you are right in the last half of your post, then that is a good argument for private good ownershipLSo the minorities can portect themselves from the crazies.
Yeah. More guns, that's the solution. 'Muricah!

Another solution would be to treat the disease, not the symptom. In this case the people needs to make it very clear that the rhetoric used by Republicans is not acceptable. So the battle is at the ballot box and in public discourse not at your front door with a gun in hand.
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Old 24th November 2022, 02:20 AM   #2190
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not all these shooting are politically motiviated. The Norfolk shootings seem to me just someone going postal.
Anyway if you are right in the last half of your post, then that is a good argument for private good ownershipLSo the minorities can portect themselves from the crazies.
Of course, but the question you asked is why the increase in numbers now?

IMO, the answer is there are as many (and I hate to use the term) "normal" spree shootings that there used to be, but now, over and above those, we have the politically motivated spree shootings like Tops Grocery Store in Buffalo, Poway Synagogue, Emanuel Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh, and now Club Q in Colorado Springs.

You can draw a direct, unwavering line between the anti-gay, anti trans, racist and anti-Semitic rhetoric of the far right (and their enablers like Ron DeSantis, Greg Abbot, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Ron Johnson, Tommy Tuberville et al) and the radicalization of far right extremists their rhetoric results in.
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Old 24th November 2022, 03:12 PM   #2191
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I'm just gonna leave this here. One of the strangest and yet most revealing interviews you will ever see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f6TXdNXcWk
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Old 25th November 2022, 12:44 AM   #2192
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
I'm just gonna leave this here. One of the strangest and yet most revealing interviews you will ever see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f6TXdNXcWk
That's hard to watch.

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Old 25th November 2022, 05:22 PM   #2193
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I just saw that. It opens up all sorts of fascinating (from a mental health perspective) insights into possible motives.

Many internet pundits, and LGBT proponents are claiming that Aldrich's insistence on being referred to as 'they' is coming from his attorneys. As a former public defender I can say with near complete certainty that the request to be treated as binary is coming from the defendant and not the attorneys. The most likely reason is that he is trying to make a mockery of the system and thinks he is playing it. But it is at least plausible that he truly has a self identity crisis that is in complete conflict with the homophobic beliefs of his dad and parental figures. HIs dad's interview looked like it came straight from "American Beauty"...so was he acting on his own self-loathing beliefs in this massacre, or trying to appease the father figures in his life?
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Old 25th November 2022, 06:54 PM   #2194
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Originally Posted by stanfr View Post
I just saw that. It opens up all sorts of fascinating (from a mental health perspective) insights into possible motives.

Many internet pundits, and LGBT proponents are claiming that Aldrich's insistence on being referred to as 'they' is coming from his attorneys. As a former public defender I can say with near complete certainty that the request to be treated as binary is coming from the defendant and not the attorneys. The most likely reason is that he is trying to make a mockery of the system and thinks he is playing it. But it is at least plausible that he truly has a self identity crisis that is in complete conflict with the homophobic beliefs of his dad and parental figures. HIs dad's interview looked like it came straight from "American Beauty"...so was he acting on his own self-loathing beliefs in this massacre, or trying to appease the father figures in his life?
From the Right Wing Terrorism thread in US politics...

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
So...the shooter's father was interviewed and the good Mormon famous for...doing porn and meth...was elated to find out his son was the shooter and not gay.

Conservative values.

EDIT: This is how the shooter could actually be non-binary and still full of hate for the lgbtq community. His family hates anyone connected to it, to the point they would rather their grandson and son be a mass murdering terrorist than be gay, and the shooter might blame the community for it. He could have been brought up to believe the only way to be lgbtq is because that community did something to him.

Or it could be another right-wing troll to further attack the community that was just terrorized. Like the above mentioned assertions that other shooters have been trans gender when there was never any indication of that at all.

Ironically it might make the shooter the first non-binary person to be accepted by mainstream conservatives.
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Old 29th November 2022, 11:41 AM   #2195
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Infographic.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...tings-database
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