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Old 25th November 2022, 12:20 AM   #1481
jeremyp
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, you'd need to be following Elon in order to see the poll.
Or somebody else has to draw it to your attention, or the algorithm. I found the poll by reading about it on Ars Technica.
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Old 25th November 2022, 12:28 AM   #1482
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't see a problem with this. I am so tired of every place needing to be a "safe space". When I try to comment on a certain outlet, even the most mundane speech is sometimes censored. I hate it.

Maybe he should pull an UNO reverse card, and start silencing high-profile leftists. Then there will really be an uproar. (I'm not really for this, but the outrage would be fun to observe)
On a free speech level there is no problem. Twitter will just sink into irrelevancy.

The real problem is that 90% of Twitter’s funding comes from advertising. That will all go away and then Elon Musk will have nothing with which to finance his $13 billion loan.
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Old 25th November 2022, 12:45 AM   #1483
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Or somebody else has to draw it to your attention, or the algorithm. I found the poll by reading about it on Ars Technica.
That's true.
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Old 25th November 2022, 05:20 AM   #1484
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, you'd need to be following Elon in order to see the poll.

No you wouldn't. The poll was being retweeted by lots of people, and someone I follow retweeted it so that it appeared in my Twitter feed. That's how Twitter works.
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Old 25th November 2022, 05:28 AM   #1485
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
On a free speech level there is no problem. Twitter will just sink into irrelevancy.

The real problem is that 90% of Twitter’s funding comes from advertising. That will all go away and then Elon Musk will have nothing with which to finance his $13 billion loan.
Was trying to think of "rational" business reasons why Musk may be following his current course and this is what I came up with.

1) He thinks by allowing the "controversial" folk back it will increase eyeballs and that he can convert more of their followers to being subscribers.
2) He thinks the advertisers and companies are bluffing and can't ignore Twitter as an advertising platform so will come back.

Personally my view is he is a dick and no can say no to him so there isn't actually any rational reason why he is doing what he is doing apart from it being what he wants to do at any given moment of time.
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Old 25th November 2022, 07:09 AM   #1486
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The ironic part of all this is, Elon Musk was once potentially at risk of being banned from Twitter. For the same reason Marjorie Taylor Greene (and others) were banned. Spreading disinformation about Covid-19. Back in March 2020 Musk was against any lockdowns, insisting Covid-19 was a form of the common cold,
Quote:
My best guess, for what it is worth, based on the latest Center for Disease Control data, is that confirmed COVID-19 (this specific form of the common cold) cases will not exceed 0.1% of the US population. Moreover, I do not think, when we look back on 2020, that the causes of death or serious injury will have changed much from 2017. Link to electrek dot com
Of course as we now know confirmed cases have 'exceeded' 29% of the US population. Over one million Americans have died. So Musk's margin of error was pretty high. The Tweet below -- predicting zero cases by April 2020 -- turned out to be off by quite a bit too.




Should he have been banned?
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Old 25th November 2022, 07:59 AM   #1487
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Should he have been banned?

No COVID deniers should have been banned. Not because they were right, but because censorship sucks. I got tired of arguing with them on FB, and I unfriended like 100+ people, but I didn't feel they should be banned.
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Old 25th November 2022, 08:08 AM   #1488
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
No COVID deniers should have been banned. Not because they were right, but because censorship sucks. I got tired of arguing with them on FB, and I unfriended like 100+ people, but I didn't feel they should be banned.
This post is the right wing view on free speech in a nutshell: I have the right to police speech that I don’t like, but no one else does.

Last edited by johnny karate; 25th November 2022 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 25th November 2022, 08:09 AM   #1489
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
No COVID deniers should have been banned. Not because they were right, but because censorship sucks. I got tired of arguing with them on FB, and I unfriended like 100+ people, but I didn't feel they should be banned.
Also, let us know when you’ve figured out how to monetize a social media site that opens the spigot on conspiracy theories and misinformation.
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Old 25th November 2022, 08:22 AM   #1490
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Also, let us know when you’ve figured out how to monetize a social media site that opens the spigot on conspiracy theories and misinformation.

Not my concern.
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Old 25th November 2022, 08:27 AM   #1491
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
This post is the right wing view on free speech in a nutshell: I have the right to police speech that I don’t like, but no one else does.

Choosing not to follow someone on FB is not the same as suggesting that they be banned from the platform. Obviously.
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Old 25th November 2022, 08:47 AM   #1492
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
No COVID deniers should have been banned. Not because they were right, but because censorship sucks. I got tired of arguing with them on FB, and I unfriended like 100+ people, but I didn't feel they should be banned.
And this is the exact reason why Twitter will fail. It's the same reason the other versions fail, or at least have no chance of performing at the level Musk needs it to in order to be profitable. No one wants to read the anti-Semitic, racist, ignorant disinformation. Advertisers don't want to put their name on a platform that condones that type of behavior.

So while you can say **** like this, after all it's not your money or "your concern", as you said, this attitude is what's going to kill twitter. What Musk doesn't realize is he's going to create his own competition, which will eventually sink twitter for good. Hopefully he kept that sink around.
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Old 25th November 2022, 09:13 AM   #1493
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
And this is the exact reason why Twitter will fail. It's the same reason the other versions fail, or at least have no chance of performing at the level Musk needs it to in order to be profitable. No one wants to read the anti-Semitic, racist, ignorant disinformation. Advertisers don't want to put their name on a platform that condones that type of behavior.

So while you can say **** like this, after all it's not your money or "your concern", as you said, this attitude is what's going to kill twitter. What Musk doesn't realize is he's going to create his own competition, which will eventually sink twitter for good. Hopefully he kept that sink around.
It's Elon Musk's right to make what he likes of Twitter within the law. If that causes users and advertisers to leave, so be it. I'm sad for the employees and some of the communities on it but they will all find alternative places to work and communicate.

On the positive side, a lot more people are aware that Elon Musk is not the saviour of mankind and is, in fact, quite a bad person. The only thing that surprises me is how incompetent he is.
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Old 25th November 2022, 09:52 AM   #1494
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Choosing not to follow someone on FB is not the same as suggesting that they be banned from the platform. Obviously.
You're choosing to disassociate yourself with someone and deny them access to the private areas of your Facebook page all because you don't agree with their ideas. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that is called "censorship".
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Old 25th November 2022, 09:54 AM   #1495
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Not my concern.
That's cool. As long as you realize that you're advocating for a very stupid revenue-killing business model, which makes it seem like you support stupid things in general.
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Old 25th November 2022, 09:57 AM   #1496
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Choosing not to follow someone on FB is not the same as suggesting that they be banned from the platform. Obviously.
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You're choosing to disassociate yourself with someone and deny them access to the private areas of your Facebook page all because you don't agree with their ideas. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that is called "censorship".

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Old 25th November 2022, 10:05 AM   #1497
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Yes, exactly. That's the face normal people make when conservative morons equate no longer being allowed to use a privately-owned social media site with censorship. Baby steps, but you're getting there.
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Old 25th November 2022, 11:12 AM   #1498
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Three badges! Twitter is saved!!!!

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...-twitter-ticks
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Old 25th November 2022, 11:22 AM   #1499
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
No COVID deniers should have been banned. Not because they were right, but because censorship sucks. I got tired of arguing with them on FB, and I unfriended like 100+ people, but I didn't feel they should be banned.
Twitter should be able to ban whoever they like (within the terms of the contract every user agreed to). Not allowing them to do so is an invasion of their right to determine what appears on their platform. Should we force newspapers to publish whatever letters or articles readers send to them, no matter how offensive they may be? Of course not. Twitter is exactly the same.

Since Musk now owns Twitter, he gets to decide who gets banned and who doesn't, using whatever 'algorithm' he likes (If a user thinks they are being unfairly treated they can sue him). Depending on how he manages it Twitter may thrive or it may fail. But Musk is a smart guy, so now that his money is on the line I'm betting he will save it - with smart business practices rather than irrational whims.

Let's not lose sight of the facts here. The purpose of any for-profit business is to make money for its owners. Anything else is subservient. If Musk wants to use Twitter to promote 'free speech' that's fine. If he doesn't that's fine too. But he has a responsibility to make it profitable that overrides any 'moral' goals - same as he does for Tesla Motors and Space X etc.

When Musk bought Tesla his stated goal was to combat global warming. But now that the company has made him the richest man in the world, the goals - and Musk himself - have changed. He is a businessman now and his moral values have aligned to that. Musk himself was a Covid denier for one simple reason - it affected his business. I guarantee that will affect his attitude towards 'free speech' on Twitter too.
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Old 25th November 2022, 05:01 PM   #1500
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For the "fun" of it, here's a bunch of errr... totally sincere suggestions on how to monetize Twitter further. Like a Pay-To-Troll feature.
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Old 25th November 2022, 05:05 PM   #1501
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Was trying to think of "rational" business reasons why Musk may be following his current course and this is what I came up with.

1) He thinks by allowing the "controversial" folk back it will increase eyeballs and that he can convert more of their followers to being subscribers.
2)[] He thinks the advertisers and companies are bluffing and can't ignore Twitter as an advertising platform so will come back[/].

Personally my view is he is a dick and no can say no to him so there isn't actually any rational reason why he is doing what he is doing apart from it being what he wants to do at any given moment of time.
Then he's utterly clueless about how small and irrelevant Twitter actually is.


Meanwhile the infamous email may have no validity as a method of firing employees:
https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2022/...er-injunction/
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Old 25th November 2022, 05:57 PM   #1502
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
No you wouldn't. The poll was being retweeted by lots of people, and someone I follow retweeted it so that it appeared in my Twitter feed. That's how Twitter works.
But who is seeing the actual poll in the first place? Musk followers.

These followers will send it to their friends who are probably like-minded, at least many of them.

Let's say a preponderance of Musk's followers are conservatives (are they I don't know?).

Will these conservatives send the poll to all of their liberal friends? I doubt it. They want Trump reinstated.

There's no way such a poll is representative of all Twitter users. If they were largely liberal then the opposite would have been the result.

And still Trump barely won the poll. At the same time Trumpers all over the country lost elections this cycle. Does not compute. The poll is meaningless.
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Old 25th November 2022, 06:31 PM   #1503
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
But who is seeing the actual poll in the first place? Musk followers.

These followers will send it to their friends who are probably like-minded, at least many of them.

Let's say a preponderance of Musk's followers are conservatives (are they I don't know?).
If you take out the bots, it's fairly safe to assume that most of his remaining followers are right-wingers. Note: that's not at all the same thing as conservatives. The conservative label has been co-opted by a number of unpleasant groups for strategic purposes, but that doesn't mean that we have to play along with the co-opters - especially whose who are far better categorized as radical extremists than they are as conservatives.

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Will these conservatives send the poll to all of their liberal friends? I doubt it. They want Trump reinstated.
I'm not sure that it works that way. With that said, largely, conservatives are more likely to act in an echo chamber and have fostered a victim mentality, generally resting on a steaming pile of BS propaganda, so the spread would be pretty well guaranteed to be much faster through the right wing extremists. As the news eventually spread through other outlets, more of the possible voters became aware that it even existed and the votes against Trump being allowed back increased dramatically, but, well... even then, the driving force behind those against it was pretty much guaranteed to be much less emotionally intense. It's not them who had been nursing grievance under false pretenses, after all, as well as under the instigation of those who hate the US, foreign and domestic. One can pretty safely assume that anti-US foreign forces were motivated to vote for Trump's return, too.

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
There's no way such a poll is representative of all Twitter users. If they were largely liberal then the opposite would have been the result.

And still Trump barely won the poll. At the same time Trumpers all over the country lost elections this cycle. Does not compute. The poll is meaningless.
It may be worth noting that the composition of Twitter has changed, given Musk and his actions. Extremists have tuned in more and become more active, while more reasonable people have increasingly left or tuned out. The poll was pretty much utter BS, certainly, but trying to equate Trumpers losing across the US and this poll is fallacious in multiple ways, only some of which I've touched upon.
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Old 25th November 2022, 07:30 PM   #1504
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I used conservatives as an example. Point is that the poll was shared by people that have an interest in Musk. The people they share it with are likely of a similar ideology, whatever that may be.

If you asked all Americans (or people of the world) if Trump should be reinstated I think he would lose that vote by a good margin. The recent election is just evidence to me that Trump is not wanted by nearly as many people as he was a few years ago.

The poll was only up for one day and I'm sure that was deliberate as well. Don't want the word getting out too far.

Anyways whatever. It's ********, we agree.
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Old 25th November 2022, 07:50 PM   #1505
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You guys have a very restricted view of how Twitter works. Many many people other than Trump have been caught up in the arbitrary bans of years past, and in fact the decision to let Trump back was already taken, after a different poll.

I saw both polls. The Trump one was being retweeted as a "look at this idiocy" thing by the time I saw it. The general amnesty one was taking off among a number of different groups of people who wanted to see various, very different, banned members allowed back.

After the first few retweets, any tweet that has a reasonable reach has gone well beyond the confines of the original tweeter's followers or bubble or echo chamber. I think it's likely he put up the general amnesty one because he was fed up with being bombarded by multiple tweets from all over the shop asking for multiple people to be reinstated, and the prospect of looking at every one was getting daunting.
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Old 25th November 2022, 09:14 PM   #1506
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You guys have a very restricted view of how Twitter works.
I'm not convinced.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Many many people other than Trump have been caught up in the arbitrary bans of years past,
Oh, shock. I totally didn't point out similar just a page back. Don't look and you won't see it.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
After the first few retweets, any tweet that has a reasonable reach has gone well beyond the confines of the original tweeter's followers or bubble or echo chamber.
Addressed. And?
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Old 25th November 2022, 10:16 PM   #1507
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I didn't find it particularly funny, as in laugh-out-loud funny. It was certainly whimsical, and I'm all for whimsy.
It seems whimsical until you read the back story. It was really just petty.
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Old 25th November 2022, 11:10 PM   #1508
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Not my concern.
Too bad you don't say that about things like an individual race, sexual choices, religion etc.
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Old 25th November 2022, 11:25 PM   #1509
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You guys have a very restricted view of how Twitter works. Many many people other than Trump have been caught up in the arbitrary bans of years past, and in fact the decision to let Trump back was already taken, after a different poll.

I saw both polls. The Trump one was being retweeted as a "look at this idiocy" thing by the time I saw it. The general amnesty one was taking off among a number of different groups of people who wanted to see various, very different, banned members allowed back.

After the first few retweets, any tweet that has a reasonable reach has gone well beyond the confines of the original tweeter's followers or bubble or echo chamber. I think it's likely he put up the general amnesty one because he was fed up with being bombarded by multiple tweets from all over the shop asking for multiple people to be reinstated, and the prospect of looking at every one was getting daunting.

Not sure why I care but I believe Musk intended to reinstate Trump and these people (or others he felt were unfairly "censored") all along. His rants about free speech back when Pres Dumbass was banned is admittedly all I really have to go on (plus his very recent actions), but lo' and behold, he ended up buying Twitter.

That is the first thing that came to mind (Trump) when he announced it. I thought he was bluffing. Probably was...oops.

This reinstating of "The Oppressed" seems to be the one thing he has focused on the most since his acquisition. He even spent a whole 24 hours waiting for poll results.

I don't remember a poll asking if thousands of people should lose their jobs. Seems like he put more thought into Trump for some reason I don't care what Musk claims, he is in love with Trump Who the hell knows with this guy.

I wish I could say I'm enjoying seeing Musk be a screw up but unfortunately he has and will continue to take a lot of good people down with him.
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Old 26th November 2022, 02:47 AM   #1510
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
And this is the exact reason why Twitter will fail. It's the same reason the other versions fail, or at least have no chance of performing at the level Musk needs it to in order to be profitable. No one wants to read the anti-Semitic, racist, ignorant disinformation. Advertisers don't want to put their name on a platform that condones that type of behavior.

So while you can say **** like this, after all it's not your money or "your concern", as you said, this attitude is what's going to kill twitter. What Musk doesn't realize is he's going to create his own competition, which will eventually sink twitter for good. Hopefully he kept that sink around.
Exactly.


We're a well loved and trusted brand, as you can see because we have decided to spread our message on a well loved and trusted outlet that also says that Jews are hiding the fact that the Earth is flat and violence against large numbers of our potential customers is needed

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Old 26th November 2022, 03:20 AM   #1511
Gulliver Foyle
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Three badges! Twitter is saved!!!!

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...-twitter-ticks
And at the end of the article Musk is saying they need 50% of their income from subscriptions, again showing how much of an idiot he is.
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Old 26th November 2022, 03:32 AM   #1512
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Then he's utterly clueless about how small and irrelevant Twitter actually is.


Meanwhile the infamous email may have no validity as a method of firing employees:
https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2022/...er-injunction/
Elon is finding it a pain buying out a company which operates in countries with functioning employment laws and which don't give two shakes of a lambs tail about him being the world's biggest grifter.
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Old 26th November 2022, 04:45 AM   #1513
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
And at the end of the article Musk is saying they need 50% of their income from subscriptions, again showing how much of an idiot he is.
If he'd handled it properly that might have been doable, it's about US$12pa per active user.
If course it would have taken time, effort and planning so not the Musky way.

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Elon is finding it a pain buying out a company which operates in countries with functioning employment laws and which don't give two shakes of a lambs tail about him being the world's biggest grifter.
Indeed. There is a cascade of other cases waiting.
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Old 26th November 2022, 06:55 AM   #1514
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Ol' Pedo Musky has announced that he will support DeSantis in a presidential bid over trump. And just for good measure, he had to throw in a trolling excuse about how he couldn't find any centrist candidate on the Democrat side, so he had to go with DeSantis.
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Old 26th November 2022, 07:09 AM   #1515
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Twitter should be able to ban whoever they like (within the terms of the contract every user agreed to). Not allowing them to do so is an invasion of their right to determine what appears on their platform. Should we force newspapers to publish whatever letters or articles readers send to them, no matter how offensive they may be? Of course not. Twitter is exactly the same.

Since Musk now owns Twitter, he gets to decide who gets banned and who doesn't, using whatever 'algorithm' he likes (If a user thinks they are being unfairly treated they can sue him). Depending on how he manages it Twitter may thrive or it may fail. But Musk is a smart guy, so now that his money is on the line I'm betting he will save it - with smart business practices rather than irrational whims.
Facts not in evidence

Quote:
Let's not lose sight of the facts here. The purpose of any for-profit business is to make money for its owners. Anything else is subservient. If Musk wants to use Twitter to promote 'free speech' that's fine. If he doesn't that's fine too. But he has a responsibility to make it profitable that overrides any 'moral' goals - same as he does for Tesla Motors and Space X etc.
No. He has a responsibility to make Tesla profitable for its owners because it is a publicly traded company. He owns Twitter and SpaceX and they are both private businesses. There is no responsibility to keep them profitable beyond what he might have agreed with other investors.

Quote:
When Musk bought Tesla his stated goal was to combat global warming. But now that the company has made him the richest man in the world, the goals - and Musk himself - have changed. He is a businessman now and his moral values have aligned to that. Musk himself was a Covid denier for one simple reason - it affected his business. I guarantee that will affect his attitude towards 'free speech' on Twitter too.
A lot of people have been saying that. At some point he will realise that his current policies are causing him to lose a lot of money. If that realisation comes before bankruptcy, Twitter's moderation policies will go back to what they were, more or less.

At this point though, it looks like he's totally lost the plot.

Last edited by jeremyp; 26th November 2022 at 07:09 AM. Reason: Fix tags
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Old 26th November 2022, 09:08 AM   #1516
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Nice one Elon


https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2022/...er-injunction/

Could be costly
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Old 26th November 2022, 09:21 AM   #1517
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post

This seems pretty convoluted. She seems to want to stay with the company. I bet they get it sorted without any tremendous cost. But a lot of what I read makes me think he is doing a good thing and purging a lot of weak, non-committed people with negative attitudes. And when I hear people cry about things like being expected to work their shift at the office, well those folks need to go, for sure.
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Old 26th November 2022, 09:43 AM   #1518
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
This seems pretty convoluted. She seems to want to stay with the company. I bet they get it sorted without any tremendous cost. But a lot of what I read makes me think he is doing a good thing and purging a lot of weak, non-committed people with negative attitudes. And when I hear people cry about things like being expected to work their shift at the office, well those folks need to go, for sure.
he is purging anybody that disagrees with him. The man is full of crap. Anybody that points out that some of his ideas are crap ends up unemployed.

Twitter under Musk has demonstrated no loyalty to his employees while demanding complete adherence to his point of view and policies. This can be summarized as stupid, toxic management. Good leaders need somebody who can tell them when they are full of crap.

19th century abusive capitalism died out because it depended on an unlimited source of unskilled labor. Musk is demanding a comittment from his employees that mirrors old 19th century factories. The people Musk has lost either by firing them or them leaving is creating an environment ripe for some of them to start their own companies. Musk is creating an environment where if Twitter survives it will likely face competition from the people it let go. More than likely they will end up replacing Twitter once Musk and his lack of a business plan drives it into the ground.
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Last edited by Doubt; 26th November 2022 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 26th November 2022, 09:45 AM   #1519
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
But a lot of what I read makes me think he is doing a good thing and purging a lot of weak, non-committed people with negative attitudes. And when I hear people cry about things like being expected to work their shift at the office, well those folks need to go, for sure.
You disapprove of capitalism? If someone wants me to work for them they're going to have to make it desirable. Salary, benefits, security, atmosphere. If I don't like it, no deal and I go elsewhere.

Companies (and megalomaniacs) who demand "loyalty" and feelings without offering anything else do not deserve to have good employees. The street is a two way one. Musk demands much and offers little, and has already gone back on promises he made. Why does he deserve "loyalty" and good feelings when he offers none in exchange, and has reneged on prior promises?
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Old 26th November 2022, 09:47 AM   #1520
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Ahem....

And it will be costly.
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