IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags airplane incidents , government shutdown

Reply
Old 12th March 2019, 09:21 PM   #1
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,014
737 Max Crashes (was Shutdown caused Boeing crash.)

Boeing was planning to make software revisions for the 737 Max in January that might have prevented the Ethiopian Airways crash that killed 157 people. But regulatory approval was delayed by the 35-day U.S. government shutdown.

Quote:
According to the WSJ, US officials have also blamed part of the delay on this year’s government shutdown — saying it halted work for at least five weeks.
https://nypost.com/2019/03/12/boeing...es-for-months/

Thanks, Donald!
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 09:57 PM   #2
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 27,632
Premature since they haven't officially determined the cause of the accident yet, but:
Quote:
The updates — which involve multiple sensors, or data feeds, being rolled out into the MAX’s stall-prevention system in place of its current single-sensor setup — were ordered up in the wake of the deadly Lion Air crash in Indonesia last October and were originally planned for early January.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 10:31 PM   #3
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 22,671
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Premature since they haven't officially determined the cause of the accident yet, but:
Nonetheless, there are a very limited number of things that can cause an airliner to autonomously pitch nose-down during climb-out.
__________________
Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that
Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so"
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 10:42 PM   #4
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 92,532
OK, say the OP is true, shouldn't Boeing have grounded the planes until the issue was addressed?

Not that I'm unwilling to blame Trump for contributing to the problem.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 10:46 PM   #5
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 27,632
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nonetheless, there are a very limited number of things that can cause an airliner to autonomously pitch nose-down during climb-out.
Have they determined that happenned in the recent crash?

I'm not doubting, I just hadn't seen that.

Ethiopian plane smoked and shuddered before deadly plunge (Reuters)

Quote:
GARA-BOKKA, Ethiopia (Reuters) - The Ethiopian Airlines plane that crashed killing 157 people was making a strange rattling noise and trailed smoke and debris as it swerved above a field of panicked cows before hitting earth, according to witnesses.
Quote:
Half a dozen witnesses interviewed by Reuters in the farmland where the plane came down reported smoke billowing out behind, while four of them also described a loud sound.

“It was a loud rattling sound. Like straining and shaking metal,” said Turn Buzuna, a 26-year-old housewife and farmer who lives about 300 meters (328 yards) from the crash site.

“Everyone says they have never heard that kind of sound from a plane and they are under a flight path,” she added.

Malka Galato, 47, a barley and wheat farmer whose field the plane crashed in, also described smoke and sparks from the back. “The plane was very close to the ground and it made a turn... Cows that were grazing in the fields ran in panic,” he said.

Tamirat Abera, 25, was walking past the field at the time. He said the plane turned sharply, trailing white smoke and items like clothes and papers, then crashed about 300 meters away.

“It tried to climb but it failed and went down nose first,” he said. “There was fire and white smoke which then turned black.”
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 11:05 PM   #6
cullennz
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
Blaming Trump for what looks like, but is yet to be proven Boeing's gross lack of safety by not self grounding the planes.....

Left field, but predictable.
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 11:08 PM   #7
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 6,050
Thanks Trump.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 11:20 PM   #8
cullennz
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
I reckon in about 5 years there will be a new "Law", slightly similar to Godwin's involving Trump.

Cullennz's Law - All threads on bad things will inevitably blame Trump for the bad thing, not matter how fragile the reasoning.

................................ Five years timed for when he gets turfed from the presidency


(Put that last sentence in there just to wind people up)
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 11:24 PM   #9
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 22,671
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Have they determined that happenned in the recent crash?

I'm not doubting, I just hadn't seen that.

Ethiopian plane smoked and shuddered before deadly plunge (Reuters)
I am reminded of all the witnesses who absolutely swore every way up that they saw a missile strike TWA800.

Eye witnesses to airline crashes, especially those who have no aviation experience, are often not reliable.
__________________
Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that
Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so"
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2019, 11:29 PM   #10
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 27,632
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I am reminded of all the witnesses who absolutely swore every way up that they saw a missile strike TWA800.

Eye witnesses to airline crashes, especially those who have no aviation experience, are often not reliable.
Agreed. But it suggests at least the possibility of another explanation.

They have both black boxes and if there was a bomb on board I assume that the forensic examiners will find evidence of it. We just have to wait for them to piece together the evidence.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 10:11 AM   #11
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 6,285
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Agreed. But it suggests at least the possibility of another explanation.



They have both black boxes and if there was a bomb on board I assume that the forensic examiners will find evidence of it. We just have to wait for them to piece together the evidence.
The airframe, especially the vertical stabilizer, experiences a great deal of stress in stall/dive conditions. It's possible they were successfully getting control of the aircraft, but sustained structural damage in doing so that proved fatal.

With the body sitting so low, does this model have any issues with tail strikes that may weaken the rear bulkhead?
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 10:15 AM   #12
SuburbanTurkey
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Null
Posts: 15,479
Yeah, I don't really see this as being Trump's fault. It's Boeing's responsibility to put out safe products. It sucks that the FAA didn't realize the full extent of the problem, but I put the any blame solely on Boeing.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 10:17 AM   #13
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 62,475
If only the government had been shut down sooner, Boeing wouldn't even have gotten permission to fly the planes in the first place!
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 10:19 AM   #14
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 19,050
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yeah, I don't really see this as being Trump's fault. It's Boeing's responsibility to put out safe products. It sucks that the FAA didn't realize the full extent of the problem, but I put the any blame solely on Boeing.
yeah, but for pure insurance reasons, it makes a difference.
__________________
"The only true paradise is paradise lost"
Marcel Proust
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 10:22 AM   #15
SuburbanTurkey
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Null
Posts: 15,479
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
yeah, but for pure insurance reasons, it makes a difference.
Does it?

Does getting the FAA stamp of approval eliminate liability for faulty products?
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 10:23 AM   #16
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,819
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Boeing was planning to make software revisions for the 737 Max in January that might have prevented the Ethiopian Airways crash that killed 157 people. But regulatory approval was delayed by the 35-day U.S. government shutdown.


https://nypost.com/2019/03/12/boeing...es-for-months/

Thanks, Donald!
Yeah, it's Trumps fault. It cannot possibly be operator error.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 10:29 AM   #17
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 19,050
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Does it?

Does getting the FAA stamp of approval eliminate liability for faulty products?
Flying without FAA approval makes litigation easy. If the FAA doesn't object, it makes it much harder to go against the armies of Boeing lawyers.
__________________
"The only true paradise is paradise lost"
Marcel Proust
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 10:39 AM   #18
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 56,823
Real problem is the 737 Max is just a crappy plane.

There is old engineering saying "If something looks wrong, it probably is". The 737 Max just plain looks wrong.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 10:40 AM   #19
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,014
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Yeah, it's Trumps fault. It cannot possibly be operator error.
Well, if Boeing was planning essential software revisions that were delayed by the shutdown, that certainly raises some questions, doesn't it? Under what circumstances should the autopilot prevent the pilot from taking control of the plane?
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 11:41 AM   #20
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 43,373
Boeing 737 MAX: The Latest Example of a Passive DOT

Thirty-five Congressional mandates sit unanswered, on everything from minimum seat space to secondary barriers protecting cockpits. The top job at the Federal Aviation Administration has been open for 14 months. Enforcement fines against major U.S. airlines have dropped 88% in the past two years, even as three-hour tarmac delays have more than doubled.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-...ot-11552409944
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 11:48 AM   #21
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,652
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Real problem is the 737 Max is just a crappy plane.

There is old engineering saying "If something looks wrong, it probably is". The 737 Max just plain looks wrong.
The Boeing X-32 looked wrong to me. I'm not seeing what looks wrong with the 737 Max 8. Anything in particular you had in mind?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 12:03 PM   #22
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 92,532
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I reckon in about 5 years there will be a new "Law", slightly similar to Godwin's involving Trump.

Cullennz's Law - All threads on bad things will inevitably blame Trump for the bad thing, not matter how fragile the reasoning.

................................ Five years timed for when he gets turfed from the presidency


(Put that last sentence in there just to wind people up)
Why not, they need a replacement for Obama/Clintons.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 12:05 PM   #23
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 92,532
Grounded in the US now also based on Canadian satellite data because there's more evidence the crash is similar to the other crash.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 13th March 2019 at 12:06 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 12:06 PM   #24
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 41,992
Trump (or Boeing themselves reports are wording it both ways) have decided to ground the 737 Max 8 in the US.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 12:17 PM   #25
nelsondogg
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 371
As I am booked on one of these planes in early April (Air Canada) I'm happy they grounded them for now. Only 340 or so of them in service and 2 have crashed? Eek.
nelsondogg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 12:18 PM   #26
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,652
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Trump (or Boeing themselves reports are wording it both ways) have decided to ground the 737 Max 8 in the US.
Can Boeing ground planes? They don't own the planes, the airlines do. Boeing can probably recommend it, and I doubt anyone would refuse their recommendation, but I would have thought only the FAA or the airlines can do the actual grounding.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 12:20 PM   #27
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 41,992
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Can Boeing ground planes? They don't own the planes, the airlines do. Boeing can probably recommend it, and I doubt anyone would refuse their recommendation, but I would have thought only the FAA or the airlines can do the actual grounding.
I'm hearing it worded as "Boeing officially recommended to the FAA to ground the planes."

Well the FAA is the one technically doing it, as you say I can't imagine a scenario in which a manufacturer saying "You need to ground our planes" would ever be ignored so if the reports are correct their statement certainly mattered.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 12:28 PM   #28
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 56,823
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The Boeing X-32 looked wrong to me. I'm not seeing what looks wrong with the 737 Max 8. Anything in particular you had in mind?
The engines just look too big for the wing span.
That seems to be the problem:Boeing tried to marry large engines to an airframe that cannot handle them.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.

Last edited by dudalb; 13th March 2019 at 12:29 PM.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 12:30 PM   #29
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 41,992
I'm trying to find a firm source to link to but apparently every country that flies the 737 MAX Model 8 has grounded the planes at this point.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 12:36 PM   #30
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 41,992
For some reference and context the previous "generation/version/whatever" of the 737, the 737 Next Generation (which consisted of 4 variations and sort of a military version) has as of this writing been involved in 15 hull losses with a total of 590 fatalities but that's over a period of almost 60 years
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 13th March 2019 at 12:38 PM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 01:39 PM   #31
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 56,823
You can update a older plane to take new tech....the C130J is proof of that..the Herky BIrds will probably be flying after 2050...but they sure as hell failed with the 737 Max.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 02:05 PM   #32
Lrrr
Stealth Hug Ninja
 
Lrrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: North of Reality
Posts: 407
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The engines just look too big for the wing span.
That seems to be the problem:Boeing tried to marry large engines to an airframe that cannot handle them.
I see what you mean by the size of the engines. The amount of engine in front of the wing looks longer than the wings are wide.
__________________
“Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.” - Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes
Lrrr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 02:11 PM   #33
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
mgidm86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,972
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Boeing was planning to make software revisions for the 737 Max in January that might have prevented the Ethiopian Airways crash that killed 157 people. But regulatory approval was delayed by the 35-day U.S. government shutdown.


https://nypost.com/2019/03/12/boeing...es-for-months/

Thanks, Donald!

Wow, the quality threads are piling up here.
__________________
Thanks and bye.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 02:23 PM   #34
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 56,823
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Wow, the quality threads are piling up here.
I think blaming Trump for the crash is a bit much..and I hate Trump with a passiln...but then some people think Dear Leader should be above all criticism.....
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 02:24 PM   #35
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,014
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Wow, the quality threads are piling up here.
The Fox right-wing claims the government doesn't do anything. Here's a specific example of bodies piling up because the government wasn't allowed to do what it was supposed to.

Last edited by Bob001; 13th March 2019 at 02:26 PM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 02:26 PM   #36
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,014
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think blaming Trump for the crash is a bit much..and I hate Trump with a passiln...but then some people think Dear Leader should be above all criticism.....
I didn't mean it literally, as in Trump said "Let's crash a plane." But he clearly has failed and does fail to grasp his fundamental responsibilities as the head of the government, and the consequences have been severe and long-lasting.

Last edited by Bob001; 13th March 2019 at 02:27 PM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 02:31 PM   #37
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 62,475
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I didn't mean it literally, as in Trump said "Let's crash a plane." But he clearly has failed and does fail to grasp his fundamental responsibilities as the head of the government, and the consequences have been severe and long-lasting.
That makes no sense at all. If the planes weren't fit to fly without the software update, then they should have been grounded long before this crash. If they were fit to fly, then this crash cannot be attributed to the delay in approving the software update.

In either case, compare:

"Boeing cannot in good conscience recommend flying these planes without this software update. Therefore, we recommend grounding the fleet until the software gets approved. Unfortunately, due to the government shutdown, this could take a while. #bettersafethansorry"

With:

"Boeing cannot in good conscience recommend flying these planes without this software update. Unfortunately, due to the government shutdown, this could take a while. Therefore, do what you gotta do. #fingerscrossed #makingomelettes #sorrynotsorry"
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 02:54 PM   #38
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 44,795
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yeah, I don't really see this as being Trump's fault. It's Boeing's responsibility to put out safe products. It sucks that the FAA didn't realize the full extent of the problem, but I put the any blame solely on Boeing.
It's the Swiss cheese model. When all the holes get aligned at the same time you get a crash.

Boeing sticks engines on plane that are to big.
Creates MCAS to compensate for larger engine putting plane out of balance during power on climb in manual mode.
MCAS function not explained well.
Single AoA sensor fails.
Pilots don't react to unexpected situation in optimal way.
Plane crashes.
Boeing revises MCAS
During testing US Government shuts down impeding change
Second plane crash.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
“Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 03:15 PM   #39
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,014
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That makes no sense at all. If the planes weren't fit to fly without the software update, then they should have been grounded long before this crash. If they were fit to fly, then this crash cannot be attributed to the delay in approving the software update.

.....

But Boeing's position was never "the planes aren't fit to fly." It was that the software was an improvement or enhancement. Nevertheless, if the software had been "improved" or "enhanced" earlier, the crash might -- maybe -- not have happened.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2019, 03:53 PM   #40
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 26,614
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Well, if Boeing was planning essential software revisions that were delayed by the shutdown, that certainly raises some questions, doesn't it? Under what circumstances should the autopilot prevent the pilot from taking control of the plane?

It may be more complicated than that.

The 737 MAX's Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), implicated for reacting to faulty angle-of-attack readings in the Lion Air accident,[132] came under renewed scrutiny due to the apparent similarity of the Ethiopian Airlines crash.[11][133] On March 12, Boeing announced that it had been working on a flight control software upgrade for the 737 MAX fleet, partly in response to the Lion Air crash, that includes updates to the MCAS flight control law, pilot displays, operation manuals and crew training. The upgrade is to be deployed in "the coming weeks", and is expected to be made mandatory by April by an FAA airworthiness directive.[134] On March 13, 2019 it emerged that pilots on at least two 2018 flights in the US filed safety concerns after the nose of a 737 MAX tilted down suddenly when they engaged the autopilot.[135] However, MCAS only activates if the autopilot is turned off.[136] Boeing had advised pilots to dis-engage autopilot in nose-down incidents, though MCAS actually initiates nose-down in response to stall incidents.[137] [138]
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:36 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.