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Old 26th August 2022, 03:38 AM   #1
Nessie
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Domestic fuel bills rocket, how will we cope?

This is in relation to the UK. We knew it was coming, and this is just the start.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-62633742

"Ofgem announced this morning that the average household energy bill will hit £3,549 from October - a rise of 80% on the current energy price cap."

The average house will face a monthly bill of £296, with the government giving a £66 subsidy off that, so £236 a month.

The stories of hardship remind me of when the Icelandic volcano erupted in 2010, when lots of people were stranded abroad. What surprised many was how many of those people, including apparently wealthy people, had no spare money to cope. They had maxed their credit/borrowing to go on holiday and when they needed extra, they had none. It showed how many people live to the limit, max their spending and cannot cope with any kind of financial shock.

The same is happening now with the huge rise in fuel bills. Even some apparently rich people are going to struggle, especially since other costs, such as mortgages are rising, as they have little leeway to cope, as they have maxed their spending already. Of course, many of them can sacrifice that holiday they could only just afford anyway.

I will cope, by not saving as much as I do, and not going to as many gigs as I normally do and fewer takeaways. But that has consequences on the loss of income faced by musicians and takeaway owners/workers.

I think, like in 2010, we will see who makes sure they have spare capacity to cope and who does not and it will not just be those on low incomes and benefits.
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Old 26th August 2022, 04:12 AM   #2
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Blame Biden

Oh wait.. you said UK not US! My bad!
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Old 26th August 2022, 04:17 AM   #3
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Those of us with oil heating have already experienced the full effect of price rises because there's no cap on the price of fuel oil. Prices have quadrupled.
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Old 26th August 2022, 04:22 AM   #4
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Some of the most shocking, that is not sustainable stories, is from restaurants and takeaways and their bills, also not capped. A fish and chip reporting its monthly fuel bill is going from £900 to £10,000, at a time when many will save by not getting fish and chips.
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Old 26th August 2022, 04:31 AM   #5
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From the General UK politics thread:

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/business...ears-contracts
....Major energy firms are refusing to supply small businesses out of concern that they could go bust, while some are demanding £10,000 up front, business owners and industry experts have told the Guardian....
Matches up to my own experience - a friend of mine that has a small industrial unit on a small trading estate near here and they are thinking that if energy cost go up much more they are going to have to close their business. They rent their unit from the TE's management company who also supply the electricity, it's not the cheapest electricity but it's a typical set up for a small trading estate. Electric costs have almost doubled since this time last year. And it isn't even the TE ripping them off - the TE announced back in April that from June they would no longer be adding a "surcharge" to the unit cost.
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Old 26th August 2022, 04:52 AM   #6
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The custard is about to hit the fan.
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Old 26th August 2022, 04:58 AM   #7
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Even I'm taken aback, this is a bigger increase than the almost doubling last April. Somewhat worryingly, the new price cap only run for three months until Dec. 31st.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/check-if-en...ap-affects-youElectricity will be charged at £0.52 kWh.
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Old 26th August 2022, 05:05 AM   #8
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Only complete fools will now fail to realise that our so-called governments are nothing more than middle-management.
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Old 26th August 2022, 05:27 AM   #9
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For anyone who hasn't already realised; this will largely impact the middle-classes. Ever bigger wads of tax money will be forked over to the energy companies via handouts to welfare claimants and the low-paid (mollifying them and forestalling the rampant criminality that would otherwise be inevitable), while relatively 'affluent' households will be royally screwed.
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Old 26th August 2022, 05:32 AM   #10
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And it's all "Putin's" fault - there will be re-doubling of efforts by the corporate media to herd people into accepting, nay ra-ra-ing for a massive escalation and expansion of the proxy-war in Ukraine.
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Old 26th August 2022, 05:34 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Some of the most shocking, that is not sustainable stories, is from restaurants and takeaways and their bills, also not capped. A fish and chip reporting its monthly fuel bill is going from £900 to £10,000, at a time when many will save by not getting fish and chips.
It'll be interesting to see how long this kind of glibness can be maintained.
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Old 26th August 2022, 06:28 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
For anyone who hasn't already realised; this will largely impact the middle-classes. Ever bigger wads of tax money will be forked over to the energy companies via handouts to welfare claimants and the low-paid (mollifying them and forestalling the rampant criminality that would otherwise be inevitable), while relatively 'affluent' households will be royally screwed.
Many of those middle classes are people who have large debts from the UK's expensive property market, student loans to pay off and who have got used to a stable economy with no real need to have rainy day savings.

I think many will survive by just cutting back on holidays and nights out, but the effect that will have on those sectors is huge.
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Old 26th August 2022, 07:01 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
And it's all "Putin's" fault - there will be re-doubling of efforts by the corporate media to herd people into accepting, nay ra-ra-ing for a massive escalation and expansion of the proxy-war in Ukraine.
Are you instead advocating and a reduction in support for Ukraine, an acknowledgement that Russia can invade when and where they see fit an a return to reliance on Russian energy ?
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Old 26th August 2022, 07:03 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
It'll be interesting to see how long this kind of glibness can be maintained.
What course of action do you suggest to address a tenfold increase in global wholesale gas prices ?
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Old 26th August 2022, 07:36 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
What course of action do you suggest to address a tenfold increase in global wholesale gas prices ?
Well, it wouldn't be immediate, of course, but do the British have objections to nuclear power? I've heard the Germans have a deep distaste for it and that's why they don't have more of it. Is the feeling the same way in the UK?
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Old 26th August 2022, 08:01 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Well, it wouldn't be immediate, of course, but do the British have objections to nuclear power? I've heard the Germans have a deep distaste for it and that's why they don't have more of it. Is the feeling the same way in the UK?
Yes and no. There would have been some objections and some protests but any of the various past governments over the last 30 years could have commissioned new nuclear power stations and we could have had them on stream by now.
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Old 26th August 2022, 08:04 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Well, it wouldn't be immediate, of course, but do the British have objections to nuclear power? I've heard the Germans have a deep distaste for it and that's why they don't have more of it. Is the feeling the same way in the UK?
No we do not but it takes years, decades even, to get new reactors approved and the companies who are earmarked to build and run them are demanding some eye-watering price guarantees.

In the bad old days of nationalisation, the government could have underwritten the cost and risk but that's not allowed in the free market.
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Old 26th August 2022, 08:09 AM   #18
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Meanwhile, many applications for solar power farms are being turned down ...

Solar farm plans refused at highest rate for five years in Great Britain

OK, they ain't pretty but I think we need to stop worrying so much about that.
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Old 26th August 2022, 08:10 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
No we do not but it takes years, decades even, to get new reactors approved and the companies who are earmarked to build and run them are demanding some eye-watering price guarantees.

In the bad old days of nationalisation, the government could have underwritten the cost and risk but that's not allowed in the free market.
Not the government's fault that none of their mates from school went on to head up "nuclear-power-plants-r-us plc", I assume that is what "free market" means these days....
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Old 26th August 2022, 08:12 AM   #20
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The UK has long been an economy that lives on credit. However, I am not sure Ed Milliband in the GUARDIAN was correct when he claims IIRC that 80% of the population has less than £1,000 in savings. Perhaps that includes all the debt on their credit cards, loans and mortgages and whether anything is left over after that. I think it is the poorest 20% or so who have less than £500 in savings from what I recall reading recently. Having experienced being totally broke myself in my younger days, I don't like to knock anyone, remembering the time I received a bill to cover central heating which I thought was a staggering amount at the time and had a real problem in paying. On one occasion, I had 80p in my pocket, despite my salary having just come in, walking around Iceland, and discovering there was nothing priced under £1. Zahawi telling people to use less energy is not helpful!

I don't know what is going on in the UK as there is inflation all over Europe but seems to be about 4% to 5% lower than the UK. Plus Europe, too, is affected by the Ukraine situation and the energy sanction on Russia, yet IIRC France has capped their costs at 4%.

My latest three-month bill (which is two-tiered and comes from (a) the power source and (b) the service providers; two separate companies) equates to the sterling equivalent of £29 per calendar month and includes, sauna, air-conditioning, dishwasher, dryer-washer, oven air-extractor, large fridge and all the usual household stuff. Admittedly, I don't watch tv much but otherwise I am gobsmacked at the prices being quoted in the UK. Bear in mind, my energy bill includes a whopping 24% VAT, and Finland is hardly a cheap country to live in, either. Having said that the insulation and triple glazing is excellent, not a single draught from anywhere. In the UK, I was cold all the time.

A friend in England mentioned a 'don't pay' campaign but that just means people will be forced to have a smart meter if they do not.

Here in Finland, it is actually illegal to cut anyone off for non-payment. (Probably because it is subzero in winter.)

My friend in England said people have been demonstrating, just that it is not reported, when I asked him how come people aren't on the streets making a fuss.
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Old 26th August 2022, 08:13 AM   #21
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I'm going to feel the hit in the huge increases, it will mean that I'll spend less on other stuff - hey that means inflation will go down.... and if they double again as some seem to think they will then I will have to use savings to pay my energy bills.
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Old 26th August 2022, 08:23 AM   #22
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I wonder how Finland has such cheap electricity.

Of course if the vast majority is generated by means other than fossil fuel then that makes sense. Otherwise there's a big subsidy in there. Stripping out the costs of the hot tub and charging Mrs Don's car we're at close to 4 times your bill and we don't have any electric heating -we'll likely spend another £2000 on oil.

Edited to add....

Less than 15% of Finland's electricity is generated from fossil fuels so I understand why there's much less pressure on costs.

Last edited by The Don; 26th August 2022 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 26th August 2022, 08:54 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I wonder how Finland has such cheap electricity.

Of course if the vast majority is generated by means other than fossil fuel then that makes sense. Otherwise there's a big subsidy in there. Stripping out the costs of the hot tub and charging Mrs Don's car we're at close to 4 times your bill and we don't have any electric heating -we'll likely spend another £2000 on oil.

Edited to add....

Less than 15% of Finland's electricity is generated from fossil fuels so I understand why there's much less pressure on costs.
I think it is because of first class engineering and architecture. Because the climate is so severe in winter, a solution had to be found. Necessity being the mother of invention. I understand in hot countries, there might just be a ceiling fan and no need for sophisticated heating systems, so that is why there are problems in freak weather conditions, as happened in Texas a couple of years ago. Even when visiting as a kid I was impressed even then at how well designed everything seemed to be. For example, wet rooms in the bathroom, where you don't need to worry about the floor getting wet or the shower spraying everywhere. The cupboard over the sink that is a drying rack. Little things.

There was a new reactor just come into use recently but it might be too soon to ascribe energy savings to that yet.
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Old 26th August 2022, 08:59 AM   #24
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Old 26th August 2022, 09:14 AM   #25
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Looks like electricity prices will be over 50p per kwh and these may nearly double to close to £1 per kwh next year according to some pundits.

Last edited by The Don; 26th August 2022 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 26th August 2022, 12:17 PM   #26
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Sounds like the transition to renewable energy is proceeding about as well as can be expected.
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Old 26th August 2022, 01:25 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Looks like electricity prices will be over 50p per kwh and these may nearly double to close to £1 per kwh next year according to some pundits.
Scary when you put it like that. I think of 1kW as a single bar on one of those old radiant electric fires. So I come down in the morning and it's pretty nippy so I flip on the convector heater for an hour. Thats a quid or so?

Well, there's a hefty and thoroughly dead tree in the back garden, a wood stove in this room and I have a chainsaw. Time to start it up ...
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Old 26th August 2022, 04:03 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

My friend in England said people have been demonstrating, just that it is not reported, when I asked him how come people aren't on the streets making a fuss.
The demonstrations about energy use were reported alright just not the ones critical of the new approach. End Fossil Fuels! There is no Planet B!...You know the slogans and they got exactly what they wanted, government/corporate intervention on energy use.

Oh, this was supposed to be painless? Just bung up some wind and solar farms and everything will be easy peasy? Guess again.

In fact this might be a good time to raise the rates even higher considering all those developing nations that are demanding climate reparations from developed nations.

Since climate activism has wrapped itself up so thoroughly in identity politics it's fairly easy to write off those opposed to reduced energy usage through increased tariffs as right wing MAGA Chuds and issue a social media call to action for a robust counter protest.

Aside: That £0.52 kWh is more than I was paying living on a small island In Honduras. Only the very rich had clothes dryers and ran aircon. 20 watt light bulbs were not uncommon until everything got replaced by fluorescent. Rolling blackouts were a fact of life (keep flashlights and candles handy) and often with no warning or estimate of how long the power would be off for. On that island, you pay for your electricity in advance. Punch the 16 digit code on your receipt form the power company into the digital meter on your wall then watch it count down as you ran your appliances and lights.

You'll get used to doing without.

Hey, I hear in the UK you can get interest free microloans to help pay for groceries now. Eating the government bugs can't be far behind,
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Old 26th August 2022, 11:01 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Sounds like the transition to renewable energy is proceeding about as well as can be expected.
Renewable energy schemes have recently been denied planning permission at an increased rate

Our issue is that we failed to transition well enough and are still reliant on imported fossil fuels for electricity generation and home heating.
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Old 27th August 2022, 12:44 AM   #30
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I'm all electric and currently see bills in excess of £3500 P/A, I'm deeply concerned about what's to come and can see myself hitting my savings.

I've a coal fire in the living room and a huge resource of cut wood ready to go. Looks like my particulate matter strategy is up the shunky!
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Old 27th August 2022, 01:04 AM   #31
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In Australia our gas bill have gone up quite a bit to the extent that I’m looking to convert the gas heating to reverse-cycle conditioning. Government offers up to $5000 to convert, but you can imagine how quotes increase to wipe out this grant.

Electricity bills remain stable for now, and this is because a lot of houses have solar panels (ours soon). Who knows what the future holds, but we are very careful about heating (winter here of course, but we are putting on layers of clothes and not turning on the central heating until 4pm, so we should be okay).

So good luck to our Brit mates, and get those solar panels installed.
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Old 27th August 2022, 02:50 AM   #32
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Before the recent large rises I only had an approximate idea of how much I was paying, I'd move company every couple of years to get a fixed price deal and that was it out of mind for a couple of years.

I paid £135 a month for a dual fuel tariff - that ends at the end of this month and prior to the recent rise I was looking to go to £251. Not calculated what the latest change in the cap will do to that.
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Old 27th August 2022, 04:28 AM   #33
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There are people on Twitter saying how as a child they had single glazing, ice on the windows, poor heating and yet they survived. Erm, perhaps in childhood their immune systems were more resilient...?

If there is another winter like 1963 it will kill these people off if all they have are their state pensions and tax credit top ups if claiming social security. Let's see how robust they are this time!
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Old 27th August 2022, 07:02 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There are people on Twitter saying how as a child they had single glazing, ice on the windows, poor heating and yet they survived.
The people who didn't survive don't seem to post about it on Twitter for some reason.

Probably too lazy.
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Old 27th August 2022, 07:13 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
The people who didn't survive don't seem to post about it on Twitter for some reason.

Probably too lazy.
But then again, some of us who did survive don't post about it on Twitter either.

BTW what's Twitter?


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Old 27th August 2022, 12:41 PM   #36
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Just so we're clear - there is no such thing as "renewable energy" - the manufacture of the hardware in question barely repays the investment of energy in manufacturing it, and apart from that, the manufacturing capability in question is one based on BOTH 'economies of scale' and facilities such as smelters and foundries that use mind-boggling amounts of current - no windfarm or solar array has a hope of providing both.

Essentially, in "renewable energy" we're being sold something akin to perpetual motion machines, but there seem to be enough people dumb enough to buy it that its held up as credible.
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Old 27th August 2022, 12:50 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Just so we're clear - there is no such thing as "renewable energy" - the manufacture of the hardware in question barely repays the investment of energy in manufacturing it, and apart from that, the manufacturing capability in question is one based on BOTH 'economies of scale' and facilities such as smelters and foundries that use mind-boggling amounts of current - no windfarm or solar array has a hope of providing both.

Essentially, in "renewable energy" we're being sold something akin to perpetual motion machines, but there seem to be enough people dumb enough to buy it that its held up as credible.
And that type of brilliant thinking has slowed any attempt at getting away from dependency on oil and gas.
Besides, all dire warnings about being dependent on a depletable energy source controlled by dictatorships (and the US) are just left wing horror stories.

And now we can see how well that is working out.
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Old 27th August 2022, 01:59 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
And that type of brilliant thinking has slowed any attempt at getting away from dependency on oil and gas.
Besides, all dire warnings about being dependent on a depletable energy source controlled by dictatorships (and the US) are just left wing horror stories.

And now we can see how well that is working out.
Let me put what I just tried to explain another way;

Oil. Gas. Coal. Atomic. They are the only energy sources available to us. There is no reducing "dependency" on them, only reducing consumption of them.
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Old 27th August 2022, 03:00 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Let me put what I just tried to explain another way;

Oil. Gas. Coal. Atomic. They are the only energy sources available to us. There is no reducing "dependency" on them, only reducing consumption of them.
I must be imagining that 30% (and growing rapidly) of Australian houses have solar panels on their roofs….
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Old 27th August 2022, 03:03 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Let me put what I just tried to explain another way;

Oil. Gas. Coal. Atomic. They are the only energy sources available to us. There is no reducing "dependency" on them, only reducing consumption of them.
Wind, solar, hydro, wood ...

How is it even possible to make a post that's so utterly wrong?
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