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Old 12th October 2022, 10:51 PM   #1
Checkmite
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A Polite Society

These two morons, as morons often do, picked a road-rage fight with each other on the highway this past weekend in Florida. Inevitably the guns came out because when you have a hammer every problem becomes an imminent threat of bodily harm, and they ended up in a rolling gun battle, like in some old black-and-white gangster flick.

The first to actually be struck by a bullet was a small child in one of the vehicles. Realizing that his child had been shot, the driver did what any concerned father would do and forewent immediately stopping to give first aid or driving her to a hospital in favor of recommitting instead to an extended chase of the other vehicle, which he in turn shot at several times, managing to shoot the other driver's child as well.

Eventually the road ragers came upon a police car stopped by the road and got out of their vehicles - which, remember, each had a child bleeding from a life-threatening gunshot wound sitting inside it - and engaged in a drawn-out shouting match with each other in front of the police until the police had to restrain and arrest them both and call ambulances for the wounded children - both of whom, fortunately, are expected to recover. Hopefully they will soon also be safely delivered from the presence of their psychotic fathers, both of whom have been charged with felony attempted murder (although they are both out on bail as of reporting).
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Old 12th October 2022, 11:12 PM   #2
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'Murica.

Specifically, Florida. A state where you can legally shoot someone dead if you feel like their existence is a threat to you. Or claim to feel like their existence is a threat to you.
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Old 12th October 2022, 11:15 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
These two morons, as morons often do, picked a road-rage fight with each other on the highway this past weekend in Florida. Inevitably the guns came out because when you have a hammer every problem becomes an imminent threat of bodily harm, and they ended up in a rolling gun battle, like in some old black-and-white gangster flick.

The first to actually be struck by a bullet was a small child in one of the vehicles. Realizing that his child had been shot, the driver did what any concerned father would do and forewent immediately stopping to give first aid or driving her to a hospital in favor of recommitting instead to an extended chase of the other vehicle, which he in turn shot at several times, managing to shoot the other driver's child as well.

Eventually the road ragers came upon a police car stopped by the road and got out of their vehicles - which, remember, each had a child bleeding from a life-threatening gunshot wound sitting inside it - and engaged in a drawn-out shouting match with each other in front of the police until the police had to restrain and arrest them both and call ambulances for the wounded children - both of whom, fortunately, are expected to recover. Hopefully they will soon also be safely delivered from the presence of their psychotic fathers, both of whom have been charged with felony attempted murder (although they are both out on bail as of reporting).
My prediction will be there will be a plea deal, this will never see the courts and they'll be convicted of a misdemeanour firearms offence and / or felony driving offence and see no jail time / time served. Whoever opened fire second almost certainly has a good case for self defence. It might depend on whether the driving could meet the definition of felony attempted murder.

It is not clear the firefight continued in front of the police, more likely both had run out of ammo, and they both stopped to complain about the other.
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Old 12th October 2022, 11:46 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
It is not clear the firefight continued in front of the police, more likely both had run out of ammo, and they both stopped to complain about the other.
It didn't. If they'd been shooting in front of the police they would likely be dead. I said "shouting match".
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Old 13th October 2022, 12:06 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It didn't. If they'd been shooting in front of the police they would likely be dead. I said "shouting match".
Sorry, I read that as shooting match! Small screen issues.
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Old 13th October 2022, 02:50 AM   #6
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There was a road rage punch up near our house the other night. Quite entertaining, but so glad we don't have guns to hand in this country.
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Old 13th October 2022, 04:00 AM   #7
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Heinlein had issues.
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Old 13th October 2022, 04:46 AM   #8
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I don’t see why either, in a Florida jurisdiction, would even be charged with a crime.
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Old 13th October 2022, 04:54 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
These two morons, as morons often do, picked a road-rage fight with each other on the highway this past weekend in Florida. Inevitably the guns came out because when you have a hammer every problem becomes an imminent threat of bodily harm, and they ended up in a rolling gun battle, like in some old black-and-white gangster flick.

The first to actually be struck by a bullet was a small child in one of the vehicles. Realizing that his child had been shot, the driver did what any concerned father would do and forewent immediately stopping to give first aid or driving her to a hospital in favor of recommitting instead to an extended chase of the other vehicle, which he in turn shot at several times, managing to shoot the other driver's child as well.

Eventually the road ragers came upon a police car stopped by the road and got out of their vehicles - which, remember, each had a child bleeding from a life-threatening gunshot wound sitting inside it - and engaged in a drawn-out shouting match with each other in front of the police until the police had to restrain and arrest them both and call ambulances for the wounded children - both of whom, fortunately, are expected to recover. Hopefully they will soon also be safely delivered from the presence of their psychotic fathers, both of whom have been charged with felony attempted murder (although they are both out on bail as of reporting).
I can't help thinking: if they hadn't started shouting, would the police have even bothered to intervene? It seems like only after these two morons were arrested that the police did something about the wounded children. Nice of them, I suppose...

ETA: They have both been bailed out. Great! Now they can have another go at each other. Probably with bazookas.
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Old 13th October 2022, 05:34 AM   #10
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Why didn't the cop shoot both of them? That seems to be the normal...oh, wait. [Checks photos]. Yep, they're white. Never mind!
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Old 13th October 2022, 06:11 AM   #11
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This is beyond ******* insane! Both of these clowns should be thrown in the slammer for life!
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Old 13th October 2022, 06:13 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
...snip..

ETA: They have both been bailed out. Great! Now they can have another go at each other. Probably with bazookas.
Why shouldn't they have been bailed - I mean they are obviously upright citizens that have just had a momentary lapse of judgement, sure the public will be safe from them, their own kids not so much.
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Old 13th October 2022, 06:14 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
My prediction will be there will be a plea deal, this will never see the courts and they'll be convicted of a misdemeanour firearms offence and / or felony driving offence and see no jail time / time served. Whoever opened fire second almost certainly has a good case for self defence. It might depend on whether the driving could meet the definition of felony attempted murder.

It is not clear the firefight continued in front of the police, more likely both had run out of ammo, and they both stopped to complain about the other.
I don't know about that, even in Florida they get pretty touchy about children getting shot. I would bet both of them are heading for a divorce. I can't imagine a wife and mother being overly sympathetic to something like this.
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Old 13th October 2022, 06:18 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I can't help thinking: if they hadn't started shouting, would the police have even bothered to intervene? It seems like only after these two morons were arrested that the police did something about the wounded children. Nice of them, I suppose...

...snip...
I'm not that surprised - why would anyone think they would leave their kids with gunshot wounds to continue their fight? I would have assumed that wounded kids would be their priority and since they weren't concerned the kids must be OK.

Quite seriously I would like to see as part of the punishment for both of them is to lose anything but monitored visiting access to their children, they obviously can't be trusted with their children. Perhaps after a few years of counselling, parenting lessons and so they could be allowed to have unmonitored access again.
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Old 13th October 2022, 06:20 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I don't know about that, even in Florida they get pretty touchy about children getting shot. I would bet both of them are heading for a divorce. I can't imagine a wife and mother being overly sympathetic to something like this.
You mean because they didn't manage to kill the other driver and that driver's kid? What woman would want to be married to such a loser who can't defend his kid?



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Old 13th October 2022, 06:36 AM   #16
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Deescalation is not in the lexicon of violent meatheads with "I plead the 2nd", "WOQE", Q Flags, and the Punisher skull plastered on their cars.
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Old 13th October 2022, 06:43 AM   #17
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So these guys were emptying clips on each other, but only managed to hit each other's children in the passengers seats? Literally missed each other completely?

Also: what are the odds that both these doofuses spend a lot of their time talking about how they carry to protect themselves from crazed shooters roaming the streets?

Not sure why this story is news, though. I have it on good authority that this is an everyday occurrence everywhere, but is only in the news due to Florida's sunshine laws for news reporting.
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Old 13th October 2022, 06:55 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You mean because they didn't manage to kill the other driver and that driver's kid? What woman would want to be married to such a loser who can't defend his kid?



"Honey, our child got shot while I was having a shootout with another man because he cut me off."

"Well, did you shoot his child too?"

"I sure did."

"You're my soulmate."

I realize now that you're right.

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Deescalation is not in the lexicon of violent meatheads with "I plead the 2nd", "WOQE", Q Flags, and the Punisher skull plastered on their cars.
Always cracks me up when I see people with this on their car next to a "back the blue" or a "thin blue line" flag.

"You've never read a Punisher comic, have you?" is the first thing that comes to mind.
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Old 13th October 2022, 11:32 AM   #19
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A police force in Kentucky actually had it on all of their cars. Not a couple of officers doing it of their own volition. It was a department policy.

Quote:
Police chief Cameron Logan told the Herald-Ledger "That design is basically to give back to the police officers. Our lives matter just as much as anybody's. … I'm not racist or anything like that, I'm not trying to stir anything up like that. I consider it to be a 'warrior logo.' Just cause it has 'Blue Lives Matter' on the hood, all lives matter. That decal represents that we will take any means necessary to keep our community safe."
You're not "warriors", #$%^&*(!, you're municipal workers. Public servants.
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Old 13th October 2022, 11:35 AM   #20
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I don't know about other police forces, but NYPD is specifically instructed not to fire at or from moving cars. Granted, they seem to forget this rule, but it is a rule on the books and they can be disciplined over it.

So, what exactly are these yahoos doing getting into a gunfight while driving down a highway? Or, as it is known in Florida, a residential street.
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Old 13th October 2022, 11:51 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So these guys were emptying clips on each other, but only managed to hit each other's children in the passengers seats? Literally missed each other completely?

Also: what are the odds that both these doofuses spend a lot of their time talking about how they carry to protect themselves from crazed shooters roaming the streets?
That or how they need guns to keep the government in check. Why, without them carrying a gun around, the government would probably have already installed a communist dictatorship and sent everyone to Siberia or something

In fact, if you listen to some people, they're even OFFENDED if you say they love guns. No, see, they practically hate guns, they're just buying two dozen and waving them around to do their patriotic duty

Seems to be the most common pro-gun argument for the last 2 decades.

(You can probably guess how it would go if they actually tried shooting at a trained soldier.)

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not sure why this story is news, though. I have it on good authority that this is an everyday occurrence everywhere, but is only in the news due to Florida's sunshine laws for news reporting.
I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, but AFAIK the only real difference is that they can just publish the guy's name and mugshot from the get-go, before he's even charged. Leading to all the "Florida man" memes. Otherwise I'm pretty sure that any other state would at the very least publish the news that two kids were shot in a shootout.
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Old 13th October 2022, 11:53 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
A police force in Kentucky actually had it on all of their cars. Not a couple of officers doing it of their own volition. It was a department policy.

You're not "warriors", #$%^&*(!, you're municipal workers. Public servants.
And the man behind the symbol they're glorifying, at least in the comics, was one of their biggest threats.

It's equivalent to a hyena shaving an image of a lion into their hide.
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Old 13th October 2022, 12:08 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
That or how they need guns to keep the government in check. Why, without them carrying a gun around, the government would probably have already installed a communist dictatorship and sent everyone to Siberia or something

In fact, if you listen to some people, they're even OFFENDED if you say they love guns. No, see, they practically hate guns, they're just buying two dozen and waving them around to do their patriotic duty

Seems to be the most common pro-gun argument for the last 2 decades.

(You can probably guess how it would go if they actually tried shooting at a trained soldier.)
I actually went to visit my mom and stepdad in Florida over the summer, and my Carolina step brother was there. He was actually carrying one of those tiny pocket 9mms in his cargo shorts (in a Velcro case and with a reciprocated CCW, so I guess legally?). And he was pounding down straight Jack.

We had a fairly animated discussion about why the hell he was packing in my retired parents house, and who he expected to shoot. There was vague swagger about him being the one guy who was prepared for a home invasion. Pointing out that his drunk and obese hillbilly ass would stand pretty much zero chance of mounting a successful defense fell on deaf ears, but I guess we all have our hero fantasies. Mine aren't likely to accidentally kill someone, though.

Quote:
I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, but AFAIK the only real difference is that they can just publish the guy's name and mugshot from the get-go, before he's even charged. Leading to all the "Florida man" memes. Otherwise I'm pretty sure that any other state would at the very least publish the news that two kids were shot in a shootout.
I hear that. It just seems odd how many stories of atypical personal interactions herald from the Sunshine State. I can't think of an event like this in my State, like ever. This OP isn't the only one this month.
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Old 13th October 2022, 12:25 PM   #24
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Well, there sure is a lot... atypical stuff, as you put it. All I'm saying is that it really does seem to happen more often (for whatever reason,) rather than just disproportionate reporting. There may be some stuff that's not published elsewhere because nobody pressed charges and such, but as I was saying, two kids being shot, I'm pretty sure it would make the news elsewhere just as well. They'd have a lot of "allegedly" and some non-named "suspects" in the text, but it would make the news all right.
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Old 13th October 2022, 12:35 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
And the man behind the symbol they're glorifying, at least in the comics, was one of their biggest threats.

It's equivalent to a hyena shaving an image of a lion into their hide.
"The Punisher confirms: he hates cops who support him"
https://screenrant.com/punisher-hate...y-cops-police/
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Old 13th October 2022, 12:37 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
And the man behind the symbol they're glorifying, at least in the comics, was one of their biggest threats.

It's equivalent to a hyena shaving an image of a lion into their hide.
No, no. You don't get it. Punisher only hated bad cops. Not the good ones like them.
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Old 13th October 2022, 12:40 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, there sure is a lot... atypical stuff, as you put it. All I'm saying is that it really does seem to happen more often (for whatever reason,) rather than just disproportionate reporting. There may be some stuff that's not published elsewhere because nobody pressed charges and such, but as I was saying, two kids being shot, I'm pretty sure it would make the news elsewhere just as well. They'd have a lot of "allegedly" and some non-named "suspects" in the text, but it would make the news all right.
Thinking about it, you might be right, there. I recall local stories about an argument resulting in gunfire and bystanders were injured. Told blandly, that could describe this OP. Maybe Fla reporters flesh out the stories more?
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Old 13th October 2022, 02:03 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
No, no. You don't get it. Punisher only hated bad cops. Not the good ones like them.
Sadly I think they actually believe this.

In my new job I work with police all day long, and I wasn't all that surprised to see Fox News on every TV in the station. It's no wonder they get into the mindset they do when the only thing they watch is misinformation.
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Old 13th October 2022, 05:01 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Thinking about it, you might be right, there. I recall local stories about an argument resulting in gunfire and bystanders were injured. Told blandly, that could describe this OP. Maybe Fla reporters flesh out the stories more?
That was indeed my point. Sorta. It actually depends on where it happened, and what legal protections the guy has under those laws.

Under the "sunshine" laws, they can publish anything and everything that's on the record, without holding back. So when there are incidents in other states the press would just say there was an alleged incident between unnamed suspects resulting in some unnamed bystanders were harmed, whereas if it's in Florida you get the guy's mugshot on the front page.

That's how the "Florida man" meme was born, really.

Edit: And this still isn't legal advice. If you want to publish anyone's mugshot, please consult with your legal department or the local lawyers' guild
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 13th October 2022 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 13th October 2022, 05:30 PM   #30
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
I don’t see why either, in a Florida jurisdiction, would even be charged with a crime.
That doesn't stop them being absolute idiots.
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Old 13th October 2022, 07:18 PM   #31
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
I don’t see why either, in a Florida jurisdiction, would even be charged with a crime.
So a rolling car-to-car gun-battle is a mandatory part of the Florida road rules??
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Old 13th October 2022, 07:59 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Heinlein had issues.
Heinlein was a brillant writer but some of his ideas were, bizarre.
I think he took Survival to the fittest to extremes.
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Old 13th October 2022, 08:47 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Heinlein was a brillant writer but some of his ideas were, bizarre.
I think he took Survival to the fittest to extremes.
Heinlein was a junky pulp scribbler with the literary credentials of a chimpanzee. He couldn't be anything but a make-believe fascist; it was genetically preordained. But so what? The opinions of a turdy sci fi writer are beneath contempt, just like the 2 Floridorian cretins the OP story.

Christ how I'd love to see guns wrenched out of the pudgy hands of Mr. Average.
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Old 13th October 2022, 09:35 PM   #34
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Heinlein had an exaggerated sense of self-importance. And in my opinion his writing is overrated.
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Old 13th October 2022, 10:08 PM   #35
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In most states just accused of a felony means no concealed carry permit and no guns, ever again. Convicted means it's sure that no guns ever again.

I just think two kids taking bullets will result in a conviction.

This is the equivalent of forced castración to a 2nd amendment nutter.
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Old 13th October 2022, 10:45 PM   #36
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It's always "think about the children" until a real journalist confirms that each child wanted their alleged "Pa" to prevail in the gunfight. When asked by reporters about their injuries, the minors replied, "Worth it."
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Old 14th October 2022, 12:59 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Heinlein was a brillant writer but some of his ideas were, bizarre.
I think he took Survival to the fittest to extremes.
I don't want to continue a derail, but the Green Hills of Earth (the book, not the story) has some of my favorite short stories of all time. "The Long Watch", "The Black Pits of Luna", "—We Also Walk Dogs", and the title story are all wonderful stories, I think.

However, Heinlein's "An armed society is a polite society" never made great sense to me. It seems to me an armed society is one where too many people think the answer to everything is a larger show of force. When all you have is a hammer, etc.
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Old 14th October 2022, 02:10 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
It's always "think about the children" until a real journalist confirms that each child wanted their alleged "Pa" to prevail in the gunfight. When asked by reporters about their injuries, the minors replied, "Worth it."
The real difference between the USA and other countries over gun rights is one of attitude to violence, not laws about guns. To the point that violence is a de facto measure of manliness and patriotism. If you don't stand up for yourself with two fists or guns ablaze, you're a wimp (and probably a librul commie too). These two morons must surely not be the first, nor the last, who feel they have to behave like this, with guns in their hands. More kids will be in danger as a result.
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Old 14th October 2022, 03:02 AM   #39
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Gun laws in other countries are more different than the Americans think, though. E.g., the NRA waves around the case of Switzerland, where everyone can supposedly get even machineguns, and hey, look, they don't shoot each other all the time. Well... that's rather inexact. It's a lot more restricted than that, especially after the EU rules kicked in.

But more crucially, they skip over this crucial difference: in Switzerland you can own a gun all right, but you can't carry it outdoors unless you're a security guard or cop or such, in the course of your duty. Their permit law for carrying is extremely strict.

Even transporting it outdoors (the difference between carry and transport being that for the latter it's unloaded) is strictly regulated. You have to actually be travelling to or from a hunting ground or training place, be part of your changing residence, to or from buying or selling it, and a couple of other places. Like, you can't have a gun rack in your truck -- or hell, even a gun packed in the trunk of your car -- unless you are actually on a route that qualifies. Even the flippin' army only transports their guns unloaded when outside.

So basically, no, not even in Switzerland, and really pretty much nowhere outside the USA can you just strut around with a gun in your belt or even in the glove compartment. Meaning that

1. if someone triggers you hard enough to go into a rage, you can't just reach for a loaded gun, and

2. there is no way for a gangsta culture to form in which strutting around with guns and whatnot is cool.
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Old 14th October 2022, 03:09 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, there sure is a lot... atypical stuff, as you put it. All I'm saying is that it really does seem to happen more often (for whatever reason,) rather than just disproportionate reporting. There may be some stuff that's not published elsewhere because nobody pressed charges and such, but as I was saying, two kids being shot, I'm pretty sure it would make the news elsewhere just as well. They'd have a lot of "allegedly" and some non-named "suspects" in the text, but it would make the news all right.
That’s TV talk - it’s as accurate as the chalked line around the body depictions.
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