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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , presidential candidates , racial categorization

View Poll Results: If Elected, Would Warren Be the First Native American President?
Yes 3 6.67%
No 31 68.89%
On Planet X, Master Blaster runs Bartertown 11 24.44%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11th February 2019, 11:22 PM   #41
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
There's no "right" answer to guess here.



I asked posters who are debating who is "black" and who is "white" to identify where they thought the dividing line between them was. So there's a graded bar - pick the dividing point.



Are you interested in making any attempt?
Ah, I get it. This is some Socratic dialog crap. You can't make your point, so you're hoping to trick someone else else into making it for you.
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Old 12th February 2019, 03:21 AM   #42
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Besides trolling, what's the point of this thread? If none, could it be moved to AAH, please?
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Old 12th February 2019, 06:25 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Besides trolling, what's the point of this thread?
Sexism and slander of a democrat of course!
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Old 12th February 2019, 06:31 AM   #44
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It would be ideal if color didn't enter into how people are categorized.

In fact, a reframing of this levels of black/white argument, into a 'how can we even tell who is black or white?' type of argument, may help us deal with the deep identity politics we are experiencing now.

I don't care what color someone is.

I'd love to see a Native Australian with dark skin, become PM of Australia, I would hope he/she would protect the beautiful Australian land, better than the current politicians.
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Old 12th February 2019, 07:01 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Sexism and slander of a democrat of course!
Well, if one way to judge the strength of Trump's possible opponents is by the lameness of the trumper smears, then Warren is looking good!
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Old 12th February 2019, 07:47 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Well, if one way to judge the strength of Trump's possible opponents is by the lameness of the trumper smears, then Warren is looking good!
"Nancy" is probably the weakest nick he's ever thrown at someone.
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Old 12th February 2019, 09:54 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
There's no "right" answer to guess here.

I asked posters who are debating who is "black" and who is "white" to identify where they thought the dividing line between them was. So there's a graded bar - pick the dividing point.

Are you interested in making any attempt?
I can’t, but I know that every republican I know in rural Florida had zero problem identifying Obama as “a God damned ******” every time he was mentioned.
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:12 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Besides trolling, what's the point of this thread? If none, could it be moved to AAH, please?
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Sexism and slander of a democrat of course!
The point is none of these things.

Though, if you find you cannot answer the question without getting into sexism and slander, that's good food for thought, and I think a valuable outcome of the thread.

But no, the point is to spark some thoughts, and hopefully some conversation, about race and identity in America, what diversity means, and what makes it valuable. Elizabeth Warren has family lore, and even DNA, but 70% of respondents to the poll agree that these things don't make her Native American in some sense.

Why not? And in what sense?

When asked by the Texas Bar Association, Warren checked the box for Native American. Is it important for the legal profession to have Native American lawyers in its ranks? In what sense?

Harvard listed Warren as a Native American on their faculty. Is it important for academia to have Native American faculty? Why?

Would it be significant if the US had a Native American president?

If it's not important that Warren checked the box for the Texas Bar Association, why shouldn't she check the box for the Presidency?

If it is important that we not consider her a Native American president, why is it not important that Harvard considered her a Native American professor?

Last edited by theprestige; 12th February 2019 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:39 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The point is none of these things.

Though, if you find you cannot answer the question without getting into sexism and slander, that's good food for thought, and I think a valuable outcome of the thread.
Sexist, slanderous question leads to answers relating to sexism and slander. That may be a valuable outcome for you, but less so for those who may not be interested in being trolled.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
But no, the point is to spark some thoughts, and hopefully some conversation, about race and identity in America, what diversity means, and what makes it valuable. Elizabeth Warren has family lore, and even DNA, but 70% of respondents to the poll agree that these things don't make her Native American in some sense.

Why not? And in what sense?
In the sense a large part of Americans of Irish, or Italian, or Scottish ancestry are happy to proclaim themselves Irish, Italian, or Scottish. This feigned confusion over identity makes it seem as though you have never been around a St Patricks Day Parade, or seen any mobster movie. Somehow I don't think you are that inexperienced, or that confused when you see an American with a "Kiss me, I'm Irish" t-shirt on.
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:43 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Sexist, slanderous question
How is the question either of those things?
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:44 AM   #51
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Hmm, I think I like this: unmistakeable alarm and as far as fake scandals go this is so not Benghazi! - I think clearly no Americans died in the course of this particular imaginary action. And no decades of relentless demonizing behind her in any case. Not that I would particular support Warren but good for her anyway.

Last edited by llwyd; 12th February 2019 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:46 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is the question either of those things?
Ah, I get it. This is some Socratic dialog crap. You can't make your point, so you're hoping to trick someone else else into making it for you.
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:48 AM   #53
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:57 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Ah, I get it. This is some Socratic dialog crap. You can't make your point, so you're hoping to trick someone else else into making it for you.
...what?
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:03 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Ah, I get it. This is some Socratic dialog crap. You can't make your point, so you're hoping to trick someone else else into making it for you.
Not at all. I sincerely don't see any sexism or slander in my questions. Any of them. I'm asking you to point out what I'm missing.
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:13 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
...what?
I copy-pasta'd theprestige's response regarding those who try to make points by asking questions. He seems to have a lot of questions himself, so I felt it was appropriate.
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:19 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not at all. I sincerely don't see any sexism or slander in my questions. Any of them. I'm asking you to point out what I'm missing.
I don't honestly think you are confused about anything in this thread. I'm not buying the feigned confusion about the common American habit of claiming to be 'X' if one has 'X' ancestry, for instance.
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Old 12th February 2019, 04:57 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The point is none of these things.

Though, if you find you cannot answer the question without getting into sexism and slander, that's good food for thought, and I think a valuable outcome of the thread.

But no, the point is to spark some thoughts, and hopefully some conversation, about race and identity in America, what diversity means, and what makes it valuable. Elizabeth Warren has family lore, and even DNA, but 70% of respondents to the poll agree that these things don't make her Native American in some sense.

Why not? And in what sense?

When asked by the Texas Bar Association, Warren checked the box for Native American. Is it important for the legal profession to have Native American lawyers in its ranks? In what sense?

Harvard listed Warren as a Native American on their faculty. Is it important for academia to have Native American faculty? Why?

Would it be significant if the US had a Native American president?

If it's not important that Warren checked the box for the Texas Bar Association, why shouldn't she check the box for the Presidency?

If it is important that we not consider her a Native American president, why is it not important that Harvard considered her a Native American professor?
Was that the only box she checked? No? So why do you think that's the only ancestry that matters? What makes her native ancestry more important than her European?
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Old 12th February 2019, 05:11 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ah, I get it. This is some Socratic dialog crap. You can't make your point, so you're hoping to trick someone else else into making it for you.
Eh, no.

I just wanted to see how "black" and "white" is actually differentiated in the USA by various folks who argue over that subject. It appears most are willing to argue vehemently over what colour people look like and thus what their "ethnicity" is without having the first idea if their vehemently held views actually have little or no basis in reality. It's utter bias.

Example 1: Most "white" people will find that their skin colour is actually closer to the "dark" end of that scale than they thought. I'm of white Anglo descent, and yet my own shade of skin colour is about 75% to the dark brown end. Does that make me 75% negro? But that is roughly the same "darkness" as many Australian aboriginal skins. Does that make me that ethnicity? No, on both counts.

Example 2: I have a verifiable ancestral line back to Rebecca Rolfe, who originated in Virginia colony area before the USA even existed. You may know her by another name used as an epithet recently - Pocahontas. At about 10 generations, I am roughly 1/1000th Tsenacommacah native blood. In fact, I have a much more verifiable claim for this than Elizabeth Warren does for her Cherokee ancestry. So will I be claiming tribal heritage as a result? Of course not. Same as Elizabeth Warren is not.
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Old 12th February 2019, 05:38 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Eh, no.

I just wanted to see how "black" and "white" is actually differentiated in the USA by various folks who argue over that subject. It appears most are willing to argue vehemently over what colour people look like and thus what their "ethnicity" is without having the first idea if their vehemently held views actually have little or no basis in reality. It's utter bias.
Basic rule - whiteness is exclusionary, by design. The point being to create an underclass to be used to create wealth for *some* white people. Irish and Italian folks used to be excluded, white Hispanic people currently are in flux (thus why racists claimed that George Zimmerman "wasn't really white!" when he "discovered" a afro-Latino distant ancestor), dark skinned folks (African, Southern Asian, or Aboriginal) are excluded for the foreseeable future.

A black guy who can, and does, "pass" is often seen as a liar, an invader, especially by the far-right. On the other hand, folks like Jay Smooth or Adam Serwer are generally accepted by other black people, despite being light-skinned (such people aren't all that unusual). IOW, black people responded to whiteness, and white supremacism, in a "strength through numbers" manner, and generally became inclusive.

Which, again, is why it's ridiculous to hear people suddenly saying that Obama, and only him, shouldn't be considered "black". We all know it's because he was elected president, and that nobody would listen to Biracial DeAndre the drug dealer.
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Old 12th February 2019, 08:26 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The point is none of these things.

Though, if you find you cannot answer the question without getting into sexism and slander, that's good food for thought, and I think a valuable outcome of the thread.

But no, the point is to spark some thoughts, and hopefully some conversation, about race and identity in America, what diversity means, and what makes it valuable. Elizabeth Warren has family lore, and even DNA, but 70% of respondents to the poll agree that these things don't make her Native American in some sense.

Why not? And in what sense?

When asked by the Texas Bar Association, Warren checked the box for Native American. Is it important for the legal profession to have Native American lawyers in its ranks? In what sense?

Harvard listed Warren as a Native American on their faculty. Is it important for academia to have Native American faculty? Why?

Would it be significant if the US had a Native American president?

If it's not important that Warren checked the box for the Texas Bar Association, why shouldn't she check the box for the Presidency?

If it is important that we not consider her a Native American president, why is it not important that Harvard considered her a Native American professor?
Querys 1 and 2: Because she is not A Native American, she is a woman with an amount of Native American ancestry. That has been pointed out ad nauseum, mostly through example e.g. " I am Irish, American Indian, French, and Cajun " I practice none of the culture of those ancestors, yet, should I figure out the cure for cancer in my basement I would have no objection to people who do making a claim like "that's a fine example of Irish ingenuity"

Querys 3 and 4: Yes. Any public organization should attempt to be representative of the people it serves.
Further, it was not a "box" on the bar association form, it was an open ended blank line with space for a single entry labelled "for statistical purposes only" .One might assume that they were not looking for "white" (if white was even considered an ethnic group at the time- in fact I would guess that a fair number of white applicants left the line blank) since they would already know they were a predominantly white institution. Putting in the outlying group one had a lineage of is not terribly egregious.

5. And 6: Same answer as 3 and 4

7: Yes. Significant even if we have one only with NA ancestry. Even more so if he/she is shown to be an actual descendant of Pocohantas.

8: The presidency has no such box AFAIK. And the issue has already been widely disseminated. However, should there be a form with a "check any/all that apply" section, she should certainly check the "Native American" box, along with any others that she is aware of which apply.

9: It is as important as anyone cares to make it wether or not a holder of either position has NA ancestry. One might even hope that it was something some segment of a group of people who have gotten the ****** end of the stick for a long time might take some pride in, or even view as aspirational. As some Irish might take if a tenth generation American who happens to have a last name like "O'Malley" became president.

You forget that one of the reasons it was seen by some as beneficial to have people who have been downtrodden in positions of prominence (it was believed by some) was to give them hope that they might not be completely left behind by the dominant culture, and discourage them feeling like permanent victims.
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Old 12th February 2019, 09:06 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Basic rule - whiteness is exclusionary, by design. The point being to create an underclass to be used to create wealth for *some* white people. Irish and Italian folks used to be excluded, white Hispanic people currently are in flux (thus why racists claimed that George Zimmerman "wasn't really white!" when he "discovered" a afro-Latino distant ancestor), dark skinned folks (African, Southern Asian, or Aboriginal) are excluded for the foreseeable future.

A black guy who can, and does, "pass" is often seen as a liar, an invader, especially by the far-right. On the other hand, folks like Jay Smooth or Adam Serwer are generally accepted by other black people, despite being light-skinned (such people aren't all that unusual). IOW, black people responded to whiteness, and white supremacism, in a "strength through numbers" manner, and generally became inclusive.

Which, again, is why it's ridiculous to hear people suddenly saying that Obama, and only him, shouldn't be considered "black". We all know it's because he was elected president, and that nobody would listen to Biracial DeAndre the drug dealer.
Absolutely. Which is why I introduced the shaded brown bar. Because everyone's skin is just a shade of brown, so you should be able to find your exact match somewhere.

The question then becomes: Where is the point on this bar where a skin colour ceases to be white and thus becomes non-white? (You could invert that, of course - where does "blackness" end?)

The answer is: Nobody can tell consistently. There is no such point. Setting any specific point will necessarily put some "white" folks in the "black" category, or vice versa. Putting the crossover point at either end renders the idea of setting one pointless - then everyone is white or everyone is black. Skin colour is thus a useless indicator of ethnicity. Which has been obvious forever, but some people can't help but tie them just the same.

This isn't a new concept. I was introduced to this some umpteen years ago as a youth.
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Old 13th February 2019, 02:50 AM   #63
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Isn't this a roundabout way of bringing back the paper bag test?
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Old 13th February 2019, 03:58 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
..... As some Irish might take if a tenth generation American who happens to have a last name like "O'Malley" became president.
Well that happened didn't it?

Kennedy is an Irish name (origin"Ó Ceannéidigh)
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Old 13th February 2019, 04:02 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Here's a shaded box from white to dark brown. Please mark on it exactly once where you think "dark" skin is dark enough to make someone "black" and above which they are "white".

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...25efcc00c2.gif
Interesting, I use something very similar to this to this to help me get correct skin tines when restoring old colour photographs and films.

https://www.deviantart.com/bykeyva/a...ette-425099694
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Old 13th February 2019, 05:30 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well that happened didn't it?

Kennedy is an Irish name (origin"Ó Ceannéidigh)
Very much so, a fact actually still celebrated in some bars in Dublin, Ireland at least.
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Old 13th February 2019, 11:07 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Absolutely. Which is why I introduced the shaded brown bar. Because everyone's skin is just a shade of brown, so you should be able to find your exact match somewhere.

The question then becomes: Where is the point on this bar where a skin colour ceases to be white and thus becomes non-white? (You could invert that, of course - where does "blackness" end?)

The answer is: Nobody can tell consistently. There is no such point. Setting any specific point will necessarily put some "white" folks in the "black" category, or vice versa. Putting the crossover point at either end renders the idea of setting one pointless - then everyone is white or everyone is black. Skin colour is thus a useless indicator of ethnicity. Which has been obvious forever, but some people can't help but tie them just the same.

This isn't a new concept. I was introduced to this some umpteen years ago as a youth.
Besides hearkening back to the paper bag test, this point ignores the fact that skin color is only one of the factors in assigning race. Asians would be white if all you looked at was skin color, they're mostly on the paler end of the bar. Face and body features are also used to identify race. The easiest way to observe this is to look at Michelle Obama, who was described as an "ape in heels", and there was a fairly successful campaign among Trump's staunchest supporters that she was not gracile enough to have been born female. Her skin being brown made her a target, but it wasn't her skin color that was used when making her race a weapon.
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Old 13th February 2019, 12:09 PM   #68
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Blind people still don't care
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Old 13th February 2019, 02:32 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The point is none of these things.

Though, if you find you cannot answer the question without getting into sexism and slander, that's good food for thought, and I think a valuable outcome of the thread.

But no, the point is to spark some thoughts, and hopefully some conversation, about race and identity in America, what diversity means, and what makes it valuable. Elizabeth Warren has family lore, and even DNA, but 70% of respondents to the poll agree that these things don't make her Native American in some sense.
In the sense that she does not currently, and has not for decades, claimed to be a Native American in any meaningful way. She has lore and even DNA to support that lore, and yet she no longer claims to be a Native American on forms and such. So, if she does not claim to be a Native American, even though her DNA shows that she has that in her family background, then I am not going to put that label on her against her will.
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Old 13th February 2019, 07:34 PM   #70
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
In the sense that she does not currently, and has not for decades, claimed to be a Native American in any meaningful way. She has lore and even DNA to support that lore, and yet she no longer claims to be a Native American on forms and such. So, if she does not claim to be a Native American, even though her DNA shows that she has that in her family background, then I am not going to put that label on her against her will.
I'll put you down for "no, with an asterisk".
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Old 13th February 2019, 08:05 PM   #71
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Besides hearkening back to the paper bag test, this point ignores the fact that skin color is only one of the factors in assigning race. Asians would be white if all you looked at was skin color, they're mostly on the paler end of the bar. Face and body features are also used to identify race. The easiest way to observe this is to look at Michelle Obama, who was described as an "ape in heels", and there was a fairly successful campaign among Trump's staunchest supporters that she was not gracile enough to have been born female. Her skin being brown made her a target, but it wasn't her skin color that was used when making her race a weapon.
You're right. I'm not ignoring that there are other factors at all. In fact, I heartily endorse your views.

The issue is that some people like to make ethnicity judgements based solely on skin colour, particularly their subjective measure of "darkness". Reality is that such a measure is both invalid and skewed.
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:23 AM   #72
Dr. Keith
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'll put you down for "no, with an asterisk".
Sounds good.

"No, with an exclamation point" would also work.
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:34 AM   #73
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Sounds good.

"No, with an exclamation point" would also work.
I don't see how. Would you put the "white" label on Rachel Dolezal against her will?
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Old 14th February 2019, 12:11 PM   #74
Dr. Keith
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't see how. Would you put the "white" label on Rachel Dolezal against her will?
I don't know. Maybe this would help me decide:

Is Rachel Dolezal running for office?

Does Rachel Dolezal still consider herself to not be white?
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