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Tags Australia elections , Australia politics , Julie Bishop , Malcolm Turnbull , Peter Dutton , Scott Morrison

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Old 24th May 2019, 12:24 AM   #1361
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Only that particular photo. Other photos showing the same gesture clearly look very different. Do a Google Image search for "pentecostal worship" and you'll see how it's different.
Sometimes they look like a bunch of sleepy trainee traffic police.
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:05 AM   #1362
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Here's an interesting article on how and why Scott Morrison's religion affects his approach to policy:

Five aspects of Pentecostalism that shed light on Scott Morrison’s politics
Quote:
This is why further action on reducing carbon emissions to counter the environmental damage wrought by climate change may have little intellectual purchase with the PM. If the end of the world through climate change is part of God’s providential plan, there is precious little that we need to or can do about it.
It is crap like that which renders the whole article suspect.
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:13 AM   #1363
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It is crap like that which renders the whole article suspect.
Any more suspect than Morrison bringing a big lump of coal into Parliament with a **** eating grin and asking members why they were scared of it?

Look, I agree he may not invoke god when talking about carbon emissions, but he is not serious about it.

Australians in future decades will look back in wonder about an election swayed by a ******* coal mine.
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:25 AM   #1364
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Any more suspect than Morrison bringing a big lump of coal into Parliament with a **** eating grin and asking members why they were scared of it?

Look, I agree he may not invoke god when talking about carbon emissions, but he is not serious about it.

Australians in future decades will look back in wonder about an election swayed by a ******* coal mine.
Of course ScoMo isn't interested in climate change. He either believes that it is not real or that Australia is too small to make a difference (and money is probably at the root of it).

But this idea that ScoMo is planning to bring on a religious armageddon has to stop. It is making a laughing stock out of this thread.
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:31 AM   #1365
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post

But this idea that ScoMo is planning to bring on a religious armageddon has to stop. It is making a laughing stock out of this thread.
Okay I agree that it is unlikely to be an Armageddon, but I do think his religion will impact policy decisions. Let’s wait to see what he does about the so-called “religious freedom” issue, or more correctly non-issue.
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Old 24th May 2019, 02:09 AM   #1366
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Okay I agree that it is unlikely to be an Armageddon, but I do think his religion will impact policy decisions. Let’s wait to see what he does about the so-called “religious freedom” issue, or more correctly non-issue.
Thanks to section 116 of the constitution, ScoMo can't make any religious laws (that is why we have a federal racial discrimination act but not a federal religious discrimination act). He can only give his opinions and he is unlikely to say anything that would cost him votes.
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Old 24th May 2019, 03:09 AM   #1367
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Thanks to section 116 of the constitution, ScoMo can't make any religious laws (that is why we have a federal racial discrimination act but not a federal religious discrimination act). He can only give his opinions and he is unlikely to say anything that would cost him votes.
He can make and unmake vilification laws though. The fundies hate that they can’t vilify those who don’t share their views.
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Old 24th May 2019, 04:19 AM   #1368
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
He can make and unmake vilification laws though.
No he can't.
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:04 AM   #1369
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yep. Nothing religious about that. It's all about sucking up to the big end of town.

Religion and money have a long and incestuous relationship. Churches are a religious tool used to acquire wealth.
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Old 24th May 2019, 12:17 PM   #1370
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The Three Stooges now in power (almost anyway.

Morrison, Trimp and (most likely) Johnson. For nations with great leaders in the past, this is simply embarrassing.
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Old 24th May 2019, 04:30 PM   #1371
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Here's an interesting article on how and why Scott Morrison's religion affects his approach to policy:

Five aspects of Pentecostalism that shed light on Scott Morrison’s politics

Scary stuff indeed. The following excerpt is along the lines of what I have been saying about these and fundy Christian take on environmental issues.

Quote:
This is why further action on reducing carbon emissions to counter the environmental damage wrought by climate change may have little intellectual purchase with the PM. If the end of the world through climate change is part of God’s providential plan, there is precious little that we need to or can do about it.

All part of God's plan so there!

Oh I just noticed psionl0 posted the same excerpt and identified it as crap. Must have a different perception of crap to me. Some explanation of the crappiness would be interesting.
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Old 24th May 2019, 05:07 PM   #1372
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Thanks to section 116 of the constitution, ScoMo can't make any religious laws (that is why we have a federal racial discrimination act but not a federal religious discrimination act). He can only give his opinions and he is unlikely to say anything that would cost him votes.
As long as any laws do not prohibit the right to "free exercise of any religion" then he pass any laws. Make it ok for anyone to refuse any service to certain types of people, such as homosexuals, then that is ok. Maybe the legislation does not even mention religion. Hence s116 is not relevant.
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Old 24th May 2019, 09:46 PM   #1373
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Oh I just noticed psionl0 posted the same excerpt and identified it as crap. Must have a different perception of crap to me. Some explanation of the crappiness would be interesting.
Stupid theory is stupid. The whole article has puts the worst possible spin on pentecostal teachings and attibutes it all to ScoMo.
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Old 25th May 2019, 01:50 AM   #1374
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Stupid theory is stupid. The whole article has puts the worst possible spin on pentecostal teachings and attibutes it all to ScoMo.

You believe that the article misrepresented Pentecostals?

Looked pretty accurate to me. All pretty common doctrinal stuff for them.
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Old 25th May 2019, 02:32 AM   #1375
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You believe that the article misrepresented Pentecostals?

Looked pretty accurate to me. All pretty common doctrinal stuff for them.
I have heard pentecostal speakers speak in the past.

While many of them contradicted each other, I don't recall any of them saying things like:
"Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, and non-born-again Christians are doomed to spend an eternity in the torments of hell"
- or -
"So the godly become wealthy and the wealthy are godly. And, unfortunately, the ungodly become poor and the poor are ungodly".

This article takes a few tenets of pentecostalism and makes up its own interpretation of what it means. It is just the rubbish of haters.
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Old 25th May 2019, 07:02 AM   #1376
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have heard pentecostal speakers speak in the past.

While many of them contradicted each other, I don't recall any of them saying things like:
"Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, and non-born-again Christians are doomed to spend an eternity in the torments of hell"
- or -
"So the godly become wealthy and the wealthy are godly. And, unfortunately, the ungodly become poor and the poor are ungodly".

This article takes a few tenets of pentecostalism and makes up its own interpretation of what it means. It is just the rubbish of haters.
Surely it is uncontroversial that a tenet of all Christianity is that Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and atheists and all non-Christians are doomed to spend an eternity in the torments of hell?

I know that Evangelicals in general say that Catholics will go to hell, I don't know about the Pentacostalists specifically.
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Old 25th May 2019, 07:13 AM   #1377
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
As long as any laws do not prohibit the right to "free exercise of any religion" then he pass any laws. Make it ok for anyone to refuse any service to certain types of people, such as homosexuals, then that is ok. Maybe the legislation does not even mention religion. Hence s116 is not relevant.
Some version of the James Paterson bill may well be resurrected soon. This had the concept of "relevant marriage beliefs" which was worded to include any objection to same sex relationships, whether these objections were motivated by religion or not.

This bill would allow widespread discrimination against the LGBTI community and would make it almost impossible for gay relationships to be discussed in anything but a negative way in schools.
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Old 25th May 2019, 12:34 PM   #1378
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have heard pentecostal speakers speak in the past.

While many of them contradicted each other, I don't recall any of them saying things like:
"Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, and non-born-again Christians are doomed to spend an eternity in the torments of hell"
You obviously haven't heard of Israel Folau.

Given that muslims, Jews & other non-born-again christians are by their nature idolators, because they are not worshipping the One True God that Israel Folau believes in, that's exactly what he's saying.


And it's not like little Izzy is capable of coming up with that all on how own. He got that straight outta gospel.
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Old 25th May 2019, 12:52 PM   #1379
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You obviously haven't heard of Israel Folau.
I don't know if Israel Folau is pentecostal but I bet ScoMo isn't about to make an instagram post like that in a hurry.

It is just so ridiculous to think that ScoMo would jeopardize his prime ministership like that.
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Old 25th May 2019, 02:19 PM   #1380
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have heard pentecostal speakers speak in the past.

While many of them contradicted each other, I don't recall any of them saying things like:
"Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, and non-born-again Christians are doomed to spend an eternity in the torments of hell"
- or -
"So the godly become wealthy and the wealthy are godly. And, unfortunately, the ungodly become poor and the poor are ungodly".

This article takes a few tenets of pentecostalism and makes up its own interpretation of what it means. It is just the rubbish of haters.
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Surely it is uncontroversial that a tenet of all Christianity is that Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and atheists and all non-Christians are doomed to spend an eternity in the torments of hell?

I know that Evangelicals in general say that Catholics will go to hell, I don't know about the Pentacostalists specifically.

Well because psion hasn't heard Pentecostals saying this stuff it obviously doesn't happen. Psion must spend a lot of time with Penta's to make such an authoritative statement.

Then we have the further argument that Scomo can't believe this stuff, because he is unlikely to make an instagram post about it. ^ ... Yes it is ridiculous to "think that ScoMo would jeopardize his prime ministership like that" ...... Now who was it that made that suggestion now?
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Old 25th May 2019, 03:46 PM   #1381
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't know if Israel Folau is pentecostal but I bet ScoMo isn't about to make an instagram post like that in a hurry.

It is just so ridiculous to think that ScoMo would jeopardize his prime ministership like that.
Folau is a definitely a pentecostal.


When Morrison was Treasurer, he was quite happy to publicly praise Folau's "strong character" for posting his beliefs. As PM, he might be too shy to say it, but he definitely believes it.

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...ti-gay-remarks
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Old 25th May 2019, 03:54 PM   #1382
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So what?

Is there so little wrong with ScoMo that you need to hold his religion as evil?
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Old 25th May 2019, 08:05 PM   #1383
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So what?

Is there so little wrong with ScoMo that you need to hold his religion as evil?
You asked for evidence of how he'd acted on LGBT matters.

I gave it to you.

Your defensiveness is shown by suggesting I'm looking for issues despite my earlier assessment of Morrison - in response to one of your earlier questions - that he seems quite benign.
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Old 25th May 2019, 08:16 PM   #1384
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You asked for evidence of how he'd acted on LGBT matters.
Yes, standing up for somebody's right to say what they believe regarding religious matters is so criminal.

I don't recall so much noise being made about Tony Abbott's Catholicism. Maybe that's because Abbott had so many real faults to focus on.
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Old 25th May 2019, 08:17 PM   #1385
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So what?

Is there so little wrong with ScoMo that you need to hold his religion as evil?
Let’s see how it impacts on legislation (and more important on regulations which don’t require parliamentary voting). You are saying there will be no impact. I believe this is hopelessly naive.
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Old 25th May 2019, 08:32 PM   #1386
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Let’s see how it impacts on legislation (and more important on regulations which don’t require parliamentary voting). You are saying there will be no impact. I believe this is hopelessly naive.
No, this is just pure reaching. You have nothing else to criticize ScoMo so you create fantasy scenarios about what he will do based on his religion.

Every time he sucks up to the big end of town, you will say "religion" instead of "money" which you would do for any other politician.
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Old 26th May 2019, 02:55 PM   #1387
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Let’s see how it impacts on legislation (and more important on regulations which don’t require parliamentary voting). You are saying there will be no impact. I believe this is hopelessly naive.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No, this is just pure reaching. You have nothing else to criticize ScoMo so you create fantasy scenarios about what he will do based on his religion.

Every time he sucks up to the big end of town, you will say "religion" instead of "money" which you would do for any other politician.

I appreciate your frustration lionking - and your's too The Atheist.

Psion presumes you would do certain things and then condemns you for those actions. This instead of acknowledging he was snookered by previous replies.
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Old 26th May 2019, 09:30 PM   #1388
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Psion presumes you would do certain things and then condemns you for those actions. This instead of acknowledging he was snookered by previous replies.
I should have directed my previous post at you rather than LK. You are the most desperate of all when it comes to trying to shoe horn ScoMo into a religious fanatic scenario. You don't even know who has been snookered.
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Old 26th May 2019, 10:05 PM   #1389
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have heard pentecostal speakers speak in the past.
I used to attend a Pentecostal church. The article broadly matches with my experience. I was baptised in water and with the Holy Spirit. I spoke in tongues. When did you receive your baptism of fire?

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
While many of them contradicted each other, I don't recall any of them saying things like:
"Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, and non-born-again Christians are doomed to spend an eternity in the torments of hell"
I was taught exactly this. I was taught that the Pope is literally the Antichrist. I was taught that everyone who didn't accept Jesus into their hearts would spend eternity in permanent separation from God's light - ie, hell. I was taught that you should never let the Mormons bless your house because a Mormon blessing is actually a curse. Every single person who was not a member of the Church was a Satanist.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
- or -
"So the godly become wealthy and the wealthy are godly. And, unfortunately, the ungodly become poor and the poor are ungodly".
That's the Prosperity Gospel for you. That and a couple of other bits of doctrine are why I no longer attend that church.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This article takes a few tenets of pentecostalism and makes up its own interpretation of what it means. It is just the rubbish of haters.
While a few very specific points do not line up with my own experiences in the Assemblies of God, the broad strokes very much do.
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Old 26th May 2019, 11:06 PM   #1390
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I used to attend a Pentecostal church. The article broadly matches with my experience. I was baptised in water and with the Holy Spirit. I spoke in tongues. When did you receive your baptism of fire?
Never. A preacher attempted to put me under once some 20 years or so ago but it didn't work. I guess I am too acutely aware of the power of suggestion.

The preacher at the time tended to go softly softly on the hell fire and damnation bit and placed a little more emphasis on not judging others - especially those of other faiths. I understand that he worked closely with a local Catholic priest on some community projects.

Preachers come in all colours and hues. It isn't hard to find one who will preach exactly what one wants to hear. It makes the notion that ScoMo has been indoctrinated into hard right policies by his church ludicrous.
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Old 27th May 2019, 12:00 AM   #1391
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Never. A preacher attempted to put me under once some 20 years or so ago but it didn't work. I guess I am too acutely aware of the power of suggestion.

The preacher at the time tended to go softly softly on the hell fire and damnation bit and placed a little more emphasis on not judging others - especially those of other faiths. I understand that he worked closely with a local Catholic priest on some community projects.

Preachers come in all colours and hues. It isn't hard to find one who will preach exactly what one wants to hear. It makes the notion that ScoMo has been indoctrinated into hard right policies by his church ludicrous.
Not at all.

If he is so gullible as to continue to attend a Pentecostal church, no matter the specifics that his particular one preaches, that indicates either surrendering to nonsense or buying into it wholeheartedly. It also indicates a certain lack or surrendering of logical thinking, a solid unquestioning commitment to a pre-ordained groupthink rather than considered self-awareness and awareness of others, and often a loss of sympathy or even a hatred for any people who are deemed "outsiders" or "sinners" as specified by group leaders. This is precisely why these people band together, and precisely why they should NOT be in charge of providing government services to all Australians.

Here's the thing: At some point Scomo is going to have to make decisions that could well run completely counter to his church's teachings - gay rights, land rights, climate policy, separation of religion and state, etc. He will then be viewed as a hypocrite by them and the rest of Australia. Or else he will side with his church in everything they teach him on these subjects. Which means not only bad news for the rest of us, it also means his church leaders are running Australia, not Scomo. Either way, not good.
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Old 27th May 2019, 12:35 AM   #1392
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Not at all.
Yes, ALL.

The extreme desperation that posters go through to try and convince us that Scott Morrison is going to be a disaster ONLY because of his religious views is pathetic.
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Old 27th May 2019, 03:03 AM   #1393
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yes, ALL.

The extreme desperation that posters go through to try and convince us that Scott Morrison is going to be a disaster ONLY because of his religious views is pathetic.
Who has said this? I must have missed it. What I have seen is people say that it’s possible his religious beliefs could effect political decisions. A possibility you seem to deny. Why?
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Old 27th May 2019, 04:31 AM   #1394
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Who has said this? I must have missed it. What I have seen is people say that it’s possible his religious beliefs could effect political decisions. A possibility you seem to deny. Why?
Not "possibly" but an absolute certainty according to some posters. These are the posters who make up theories about ScoMo and try to pass them off as proven facts.

Non religious politicians have similar views to ScoMo's but from different motives. Of course it is possible that ScoMo's political views are shaped by his religious beliefs. But there is absolutely no evidence that he has a hidden religious agenda.
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Old 27th May 2019, 04:56 AM   #1395
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
But this idea that ScoMo is planning to bring on a religious armageddon has to stop.
Remind me who said he would do this.
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Old 27th May 2019, 05:18 AM   #1396
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Not "possibly" but an absolute certainty according to some posters. These are the posters who make up theories about ScoMo and try to pass them off as proven facts.
Perhaps an example of someone saying this would be helpful.
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Old 27th May 2019, 05:37 AM   #1397
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Morrison, Trimp and (most likely) Johnson. For nations with great leaders in the past, this is simply embarrassing.
Modi...in India?
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Old 27th May 2019, 01:55 PM   #1398
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Perhaps an example of someone saying this would be helpful.

But psion doesn't do supporting evidence.
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Old 27th May 2019, 05:29 PM   #1399
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yes, ALL.

The extreme desperation that posters go through to try and convince us that Scott Morrison is going to be a disaster ONLY because of his religious views is pathetic.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Not "possibly" but an absolute certainty according to some posters. These are the posters who make up theories about ScoMo and try to pass them off as proven facts.

Non religious politicians have similar views to ScoMo's but from different motives. Of course it is possible that ScoMo's political views are shaped by his religious beliefs. But there is absolutely no evidence that he has a hidden religious agenda.
Sorry, but WHERE did you get this idea that we said it is certain that Scomo is absolutely certain to behave in a particular way? Not from me.

What I said was that Scomo is influenced by certain factors. In this case, it is his religious beliefs. In the same sort of way the governments of Pakistan, Indonesia and India are influenced by their religious beliefs.

That does not mean Scomo will absolutely and predictably behave with pure adherence to his religious beliefs on certain issues. I suspect he won't. Because, as I indicated above, Scomo's non-criticality of his religious adherences indicate he is someone who blows fairly easily with the winds of influence. He is easily swayed.

So I imagine if someone in the LNP party machine or with undue influence gets in his ear and convinces him to make policy contradictory to the underlying tenets of his Sunday worship, he will do it but not notice the contradiction. At least, not until it is too late. In short, a useful idiot for the most part.
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Old 27th May 2019, 07:11 PM   #1400
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Never.
You have never been a congregant of a Pentecostal church - why are you suggesting that you know their doctrines better than someone who has?
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