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Old 25th July 2015, 10:44 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
And in the real (non-forum) world, they usually do.

"Usually" isn't good enough.

They expect and accept extraordinary powers and privileges over the rest of the population. They should accept the added responsibility and restraint which go with those. If they aren't willing or can't bring themselves to then they need to be in some other line of work.

Each and every incident is egregious. Handwaving them away because they don't "usually" happen is bull-hockey.

"At all" is too often. If anything deserves 'zero tolerance' treatment then cops behaving badly do.
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Old 25th July 2015, 10:49 AM   #82
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Good read

Quote:
At 9:21, rather oddly, Encinia demands Bland extinguish her cigarette. He asks “politely,” with a “please,” but this is the fulcrum, right here. The specifics of the request don’t matter — he could be asking her to stand on her head and rub her belly — but her absolute obedience to his will does. It’s a test, and she fails it. “I’m in my car. Why do I have to put out my cigarette?” Bland asks. She’s technically and legally correct, but that’s all the trooper needs to hear. His voice turns sharp as he pulls close to the car door and says, “Well, you can step on out now.”
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Old 25th July 2015, 10:49 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Second hand smoke is akin to attempted murder.
Right, that's exactly what I said.

ETA - I'm smoking a cigarette right now. My argument that cops often ask people they're detaining to extinguish cigarettes, and those people should just do it, has nothing to do with potential carcinogens.

Last edited by isissxn; 25th July 2015 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 25th July 2015, 10:50 AM   #84
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Maybe she greatly overreacted with paranoid self-conviction that she would be drug tested and that they would find every single illegal drug that she had consumed in the past month. Convinced herself that her working career would be ruined because of that drug test and that suicide is the only escape from that coming horror. Cannot remove the idea of that eventuality from her head and so she hangs herself. Hell, I don't know. It's not always easy to talk about the minds of the severely mentally disturbed.
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Old 25th July 2015, 10:50 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
"Usually" isn't good enough.

They expect and accept extraordinary powers and privileges over the rest of the population. They should accept the added responsibility and restraint which go with those. If they aren't willing or can't bring themselves to then they need to be in some other line of work.

Each and every incident is egregious. Handwaving them away because they don't "usually" happen is bull-hockey.

"At all" is too often. If anything deserves 'zero tolerance' treatment then cops behaving badly do.
100% perfect, zero percent bad? I'd be surprised any of them are still on the job if they were as bad as some people put forward. The entire population of the US would be cowering at home, afraid to leave their garage and expecting a smash raid by an armored ram any second.

Luckily, most of that **** on the web is pure old arm-waving panic-mongering.
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Old 25th July 2015, 10:52 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Monketi Ghost View Post
I feel badly for her and her family.
She clearly had mental health issues -she'd considered and attempted suicide, was a cutter.
But her bad choices that day put her in jail and ultimately, in the morgue.
Yeah, the bad choice to smoke probably would have hurt her health in the long run. I'm sure the cop asking her to put out the cigarette was just looking out for her.

And yes, the bad choice not to knuckle under to his bullying got her handcuffed and taken to jail.

Last edited by CynicalSkeptic; 25th July 2015 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 25th July 2015, 10:57 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by CynicalSkeptic View Post
Yeah, the bad choice to smoke probably would have hurt her health in the long run. I'm sure the cop asking her to put out the cigarette was just looking out for her.

And yes, the bad choice not to knuckle under to his bullying got her handcuffed and taken to jail.
There is just no reasoning with something like this.

If you get belligerent with cops over trivial ****, you are asking for trouble. if you believe the cop is behaving inappropriately, comply and file a complaint LATER. You'll have a better chance of making it stick if you were demonstrably a saint in the moment while said cop engaged in unnecessary dickery.

That's just a fact of society, and everyone should know it by now.

Do cops often exaggerate these minor insubordinations, escalate them, and use them to file BS charges? Absolutely. Do many bully cops engage in macho posturing and juvenile demands of "Respect me, or ELSE!" Yup, they sure do. Many of them in fact. And that's very wrong.

BUT, the way to fight it is to comply and then complain. Every time. Fighting and mouthing off accomplishes nothing.
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Old 25th July 2015, 10:57 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by CynicalSkeptic View Post
Yeah, the bad choice to smoke probably would have hurt her health in the long run. I'm sure the cop asking her to put out the cigarette was just looking out for her.

And yes, the bad choice not to knuckle under to his bullying got her handcuffed and taken to jail.
We'll just forget about the fact that her behavior was why she got into trouble, then. Facts aren't really important anyways.
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Old 25th July 2015, 10:59 AM   #89
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One of the dangers of an abusive/unreasonable cop is now and then the recipient of the abuse is mentally unstable, and acts in a way to escalate the confrontation.
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Old 25th July 2015, 11:01 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Monketi Ghost View Post
We'll just forget about the fact that her behavior was why she got into trouble, then. Facts aren't really important anyways.
We're just interested in outcomes. Inputs are held to be irrelevant.
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Old 25th July 2015, 11:01 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
One of the dangers of an abusive/unreasonable cop is now and then the recipient of the abuse is mentally unstable, and acts in a way to escalate the confrontation.
This is very true, and a worrisome truth at that.

This is a situation in which cops being less trigger-happy would indeed be the only viable solution. What's the alternative? Sewing stars onto the sleeves of mentally unstable people?

So, good point varwoche. My policy isn't universally applicable.
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Old 25th July 2015, 11:01 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
There is just no reasoning with something like this.

If you get belligerent with cops over trivial ****, you are asking for trouble. if you believe the cop is behaving inappropriately, comply and file a complaint LATER. You'll have a better chance of making it stick if you were demonstrably a saint in the moment while said cop engaged in unnecessary dickery.

That's just a fact of society, and everyone should know it by now.

Do cops often exaggerate these minor insubordinations, escalate them, and use them to file BS charges? Absolutely. Do many bully cops engage in macho posturing and juvenile demands of "Respect me, or ELSE!" Yup, they sure do. Many of them in fact. And that's very wrong.

BUT, the way to fight it is to comply and then complain. Every time. Fighting and mouthing off accomplishes nothing.
I think people don't realize, or don't think its relevant, that cops are confronted all the time with irritable people who blow up a relatively minor situation.

It might feel momentarily empowering to tell a mouthy cop they're being obnoxious, but it so rarely works out well.
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Old 25th July 2015, 11:02 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
100% perfect, zero percent bad?

Nice try. (Well, not really).

Compliance isn't going to be 100% (as you well know) but acceptance of the incidents that do happen should be zero.

We don't have any problem throwing 1st graders out of school for biting their PopTart into something that kinda-sorta looks like a gun. Why should cops get any more forgiveness. Hell, they're getting paid for what they do.

Quote:
I'd be surprised any of them are still on the job if they were as bad as some people put forward.

<snip>


I though you said it only happens occasionally. That would mean that someone unfit for the job would only have to be replaced occasionally.

Or did you mean something different?
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Old 25th July 2015, 11:03 AM   #94
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You exaggerate again. One pop-tart doesn't make a trend.
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Old 25th July 2015, 11:07 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
This is very true, and a worrisome truth at that.

This is a situation in which cops being less trigger-happy would indeed be the only viable solution. What's the alternative? Sewing stars onto the sleeves of mentally unstable people?

So, good point varwoche. My policy isn't universally applicable.
I recall a by - now famous video where a guy gets stopped for speeding, the cop issues a ticket, and stands by flabbergasted while the driver goes into a minutes-long highly personalized f- bomb tirade, and rips the ticket to shreds, throwing it out the window. The officer, a model of restraint, just stands there listening, and then points out to the driver that he'll be cited for littering if he doesn't get out and pick up the scraps of paper.
That kind of crap happens every day during routine stops.
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Old 25th July 2015, 11:08 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
We don't have any problem throwing 1st graders out of school for biting their PopTart into something that kinda-sorta looks like a gun.
We don't?

Quote:
Why should cops get any more forgiveness. Hell, they're getting paid for what they do.
Seems like you should probably find someone who actually holds these positions, before you start arguing about them.
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Old 25th July 2015, 11:22 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Monketi Ghost View Post
I recall a by - now famous video where a guy gets stopped for speeding, the cop issues a ticket, and stands by flabbergasted while the driver goes into a minutes-long highly personalized f- bomb tirade, and rips the ticket to shreds, throwing it out the window. The officer, a model of restraint, just stands there listening, and then points out to the driver that he'll be cited for littering if he doesn't get out and pick up the scraps of paper.
That kind of crap happens every day during routine stops.
Right. I'm not saying most cops are overly trigger-happy. I'm saying the ones who are should cut it out, and no one is denying that.

But it remains a good rule of thumb, for those of us with the mental faculties to keep it in mind, to always comply with cops even if we believe they are behaving unprofessionally in the moment. Definitely bitch later through the proper avenues, but never never make it worse for yourself in the moment, no matter how angry you are.
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Old 25th July 2015, 11:32 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Right. I'm not saying most cops are overly trigger-happy. I'm saying the ones who are should cut it out, and no one is denying that.

But it remains a good rule of thumb, for those of us with the mental faculties to keep it in mind, to always comply with cops even if we believe they are behaving unprofessionally in the moment. Definitely bitch later through the proper avenues, but never never make it worse for yourself in the moment, no matter how angry you are.
My last ticket was for "making a u-turn where not allowed." The cop followed me into a gas station. By the time he'd stopped I was out of the car. I saw him, knew I was busted and got out my wallet, handed over my ID and said, "I'm going to pee somewhere." He waved me toward the restrooms and everything was cool. I earned that ticket and I didn't try to get out of it. No problem. Five minutes. Small fine. No big deal.
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Old 25th July 2015, 11:37 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Monketi Ghost View Post
We'll just forget about the fact that her behavior was why she got into trouble, then. Facts aren't really important anyways.
Refusing to put out a cigarette and then refusing to get out of the car.

Why was she obligated to put out the cigarette? He'd already issued the ticket (or warning, whatever) she was apparently signing it and he had to provoke.
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Old 25th July 2015, 11:38 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
My last ticket was for "making a u-turn where not allowed." The cop followed me into a gas station. By the time he'd stopped I was out of the car. I saw him, knew I was busted and got out my wallet, handed over my ID and said, "I'm going to pee somewhere." He waved me toward the restrooms and everything was cool. I earned that ticket and I didn't try to get out of it. No problem. Five minutes. Small fine. No big deal.
That's how it usually goes if people stay cool. Rarely does zen-politeness end in a hail of bullets.
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Old 25th July 2015, 11:48 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
That's how it usually goes if people stay cool. Rarely does zen-politeness end in a hail of bullets.
Hell, I've been guilty of traffic violations hundreds of times and didn't get caught. When I do get pulled over I just shrug and curse the gods. But not the cop. Out of the last three times I've been pulled over (in eight years) I've been given warnings twice. I do believe it was because I was calm, polite and admitted I had been violating the ordinances.
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Old 25th July 2015, 12:45 PM   #102
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A lit cigarette can be used to distract or even injure your opponent. Flip it down his shirt collar, and he's got a pretty high-priority problem to deal with. Flip it into his face, and there's several bad things that can happen.

If I'm your opponent, and I feel threatened by you, I will use anything at hand to gain the advantage. I don't fight fair. Fairness is for sport, not survival.
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Old 25th July 2015, 12:54 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by HighRiser View Post
A lit cigarette can be used to distract or even injure your opponent. Flip it down his shirt collar, and he's got a pretty high-priority problem to deal with. Flip it into his face, and there's several bad things that can happen.

If I'm your opponent, and I feel threatened by you, I will use anything at hand to gain the advantage. I don't fight fair. Fairness is for sport, not survival.
All true. I've read speculation she was trying to cover the smell of pot.

I would have asked her to put it out as well, only because I find cigarette smoke intolerable.

I can't help thinking this wouldn't have made national news had Bland been white.
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Old 25th July 2015, 12:59 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by bit_pattern View Post
What was the "lawful order"?


The lawful order was get out of the car. Requiring Bland to put out the cigarette would also had been lawful had it been phrased as an order -- which it wasn't.
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Old 25th July 2015, 01:01 PM   #105
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How many folks here remember the following (old) video of a Maine state trooper who pulled over a guy for speeding and kept his cool while the driver flipped out? Makes for an interesting contrast to how it seems these days any sort of challenge to an officer escalates into trouble quickly.

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I AGREE
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Old 25th July 2015, 01:07 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
There is just no reasoning with something like this.

If you get belligerent with cops over trivial ****, you are asking for trouble. if you believe the cop is behaving inappropriately, comply and file a complaint LATER. You'll have a better chance of making it stick if you were demonstrably a saint in the moment while said cop engaged in unnecessary dickery.

That's just a fact of society, and everyone should know it by now.

Do cops often exaggerate these minor insubordinations, escalate them, and use them to file BS charges? Absolutely. Do many bully cops engage in macho posturing and juvenile demands of "Respect me, or ELSE!" Yup, they sure do. Many of them in fact. And that's very wrong.

BUT, the way to fight it is to comply and then complain. Every time. Fighting and mouthing off accomplishes nothing.
The "respect ma authority!" is older than south park. Bad cop asking demand they are not allowed by law and taking the slightest excuse to pretend one is "resisting" is pretty much old. There were quite a few cop which used to do that in my neighborhood especially with younger folk which are much easier to rill up. I saw that being done on my African and Arab friends.

Not saying that was the case here, but the part with the cig sounds remind me of my youth...
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Old 25th July 2015, 01:09 PM   #107
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I see no one bothering to mention this "cop" was booted from a former job as chief of police because he was a racist jerkoff. But that's apparently not a problem for any of the cop apologists here. He was going to "light her up". What does that even mean and why is he allowed to make that threat?

Not surprised.

ETA: he was going in the other direction and turned around to follow her. He came up on her and she moved over to get out of his way. I've done the same thing myself and never got stopped for not signaling a lane change. Stupidest ******* thing I've heard recently. But this is east Texas so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.
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Old 25th July 2015, 01:10 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by HighRiser View Post
A lit cigarette can be used to distract or even injure your opponent. Flip it down his shirt collar, and he's got a pretty high-priority problem to deal with. Flip it into his face, and there's several bad things that can happen.

If I'm your opponent, and I feel threatened by you, I will use anything at hand to gain the advantage. I don't fight fair. Fairness is for sport, not survival.
Woot. I have seen people trying to defend cop attitude but that was take the .... ticket.
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Old 25th July 2015, 01:16 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
I see no one bothering to mention this "cop" was booted from a former job as chief of police because he was a racist jerkoff. But that's apparently not a problem for any of the cop apologists here. He was going to "light her up". What does that even mean and why is he allowed to make that threat?

Not surprised.
You are getting your facts wrong here. The trooper who pulled her over was not booted from a former job for being a racist jerk off.

She committed suicide in the jail ran by a sheriff who had been fired for accusations of racism.

Quote:
ETA: he was going in the other direction and turned around to follow her. He came up on her and she moved over to get out of his way. I've done the same thing myself and never got stopped for not signaling a lane change. Stupidest ******* thing I've heard recently. But this is east Texas so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.
Question is did you do it right in front of a cop 20 seconds after completely blowing through a stop sign (as is clearly seen in the video) right in front of him as well?

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Old 25th July 2015, 01:18 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
He was going to "light her up". What does that even mean and why is he allowed to make that threat?
Generally it means apply force via conducted electrical weapon LTL. The threat is allowed because it's the next step in the use of force spectrum -- the threat of consequence.
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Old 25th July 2015, 01:20 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
You are getting your facts wrong here. The trooper who pulled her over was not booted from a former job for being a racist jerk off.

She committed suicide in the jail ran by a sheriff who had been fired for accusations of racism.
Sorry for the confusion, I misspoke. The guy in charge of the jail was the racist jerkoff. You have no idea how hard it is to get fired for accusations of racism in east Texas. It's what they live for.
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Old 25th July 2015, 01:21 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
ETA: he was going in the other direction and turned around to follow her. He came up on her and she moved over to get out of his way. I've done the same thing myself and never got stopped for not signaling a lane change. Stupidest ******* thing I've heard recently. But this is east Texas so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.
She failed to signal in both instances. That's most likely why she was followed.
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Old 25th July 2015, 01:21 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Cylinder View Post
Generally it means apply force via conducted electrical weapon LTL. The threat is allowed because it's the next step in the use of force spectrum -- the threat of consequence.
I know what it means, did she?
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Old 25th July 2015, 01:25 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Cylinder View Post
She failed to signal in both instances. That's most likely why she was followed.
Both instances of what? She was traveling in one direction, the cop turned around and came up on her rear end. She moved over to get out of his way and then the lights popped on. Until that moment, she had no way of knowing he was coming after her.

Will there be apologies/excuses/rationalization for everything a cop does, even when they are in the wrong?
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Old 25th July 2015, 01:35 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
Both instances of what? She was traveling in one direction, the cop turned around and came up on her rear end. She moved over to get out of his way and then the lights popped on. Until that moment, she had no way of knowing he was coming after her.

Will there be apologies/excuses/rationalization for everything a cop does, even when they are in the wrong?
No. She turned left right out of the campus without indicating. The police used the same intersection to complete his U-turn. The police uses "fail to signal a lane change" as the reason for the stop but it seems clear to me at least what drew his attention.

At any rate, failure to signal lane change is reason enough for a lawful stop.
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Last edited by Cylinder; 25th July 2015 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 25th July 2015, 01:38 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
Both instances of what? She was traveling in one direction, the cop turned around and came up on her rear end. She moved over to get out of his way and then the lights popped on. Until that moment, she had no way of knowing he was coming after her.

Will there be apologies/excuses/rationalization for everything a cop does, even when they are in the wrong?
The instance where she changed lanes after the stop light and the instance where she came out the side road right in front of the trooper.

The same side road she completely blasted through the stop sign (as can clearly be seen in the video) on, also right in front of the trooper.

No matter though, committing two traffic infractions directly in front of a highway patrolman is irrelevant, only her skin color matters.
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Old 25th July 2015, 01:40 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
The same side road she completely blasted through the stop sign (as can clearly be seen in the video) on, also right in front of the trooper.
You're right - she does blow the stop sign and fails to indicate. I missed that part.
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Old 25th July 2015, 01:42 PM   #118
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Maybe he was so preoccupied with his hatred of black people that he forgot that he had multiple citations available as an option.
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Old 25th July 2015, 01:48 PM   #119
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I've had a valid driver's license since 1970. In all that time, neither I, nor anyone I know, has ever been pulled over for failing to signal a lane change. But she was in east Texas, so therein may lie the answer. I would trust my life and the lives of my friends to the Texas Rangers. I would never, ever, under any circumstances, trust any Texas State trooper. I lived in Texas for 29 years so I do have a bit of experience with state troopers.
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Old 25th July 2015, 01:50 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Cylinder View Post
Maybe he was so preoccupied with his hatred of black people that he forgot that he had multiple citations available as an option.
Yes, being pulled over for committing three traffic violations within 20 seconds is the worst case of systemic racism I've ever seen.
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