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Tags donald trump , Jeff Sessions , lying charges , Russia conspiracies , Trump administration , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , US-Russia relations

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Old 3rd March 2017, 08:39 AM   #241
A'isha
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Do you see what's wrong with calling that a lie?
I hope they let Flynn know he can have his job back, then, since sunmaster14 thinks he resigned for no reason at all.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 08:41 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
The easy answer is : the US system gives a far too much weight to equality between states, rather than equality between voters, furthered by winner-take-all. The misguided attempt end up giving disproportional voting power to small rural populations. Most democracy simply give 1 person == 1 vote but the electoral vote break that down.

Basically, the few protection which would have protected against some body like trump or worst (the EC) was broken : originally the EC/State did directly chose the president to avoid a populist like Trump. But instead voter advise the EC, but each EC vote is not voter proportional/population proportional.

Basically you get the worst of the two worlds.

And it will not get better with time. Now that some have seen that populism works, you can bet that the next elections will also appeal to the worst of what the people have to offer, very often available in plenty in rural zone (we have the same problem here in France/Germany).

Basically : TL;DR you will now get on regular basis trumpalikes, at least until either you system is reformed, or the rural folk die out in a few generations and slowly they are replaced by younger people from outside that dead end culture.
I was more or less with you, but I must object to two points. Rural culture isn't a dead end. I'm quite taken with some aspects of rural culture and miss living in Oklahoma. Second, if I understand correctly, it was the swing of the rust belt, not the farmlands, that drove this ******* to victory.

Let's not allow Trump's victory to give us license to disparage mostly decent folks.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 09:02 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
That is the most modest, self-deprecating statement from a Trump supporter that I've seen thus far. There is hope.
Well, he talks big.

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Old 3rd March 2017, 09:03 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Wow that article is embarrassingly inaccurate (perhaps purposefully).
You seem to see conspiracies everywhere. But I admit, it's huffpo, I picked it quickly simply for the numbers, which you don't appear to disagree with. Do you ?

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
You should hide your head in shame for citing it.
No more so than you for reflexively defending trump, no matter the issue.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
The very first paragraph is wrong (my emphasis added):
President Donald Trump’s administration has now conceded that some of its top officials did indeed have contact with Russia during the campaign. Michael Flynn lost his job as national security adviser over the admission last month, ...
I don't see what's wrong. What nit would you like to pick ?


Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
And here is what the article cites as Pence's alleged lie (emphasis added):

Do you see what's wrong with calling that a lie?
That Pence is a bumbling uninformed stooge ? I agree we don't have evidence of what pence knew and when. If you want to say it's not a lie (yet), I probably agree.

But again, it's huffpo. The point is, we are now up to at least 5 trump campaign members having contact with the Russians, with Trump and others denying anyone did.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 09:04 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Let's not allow Trump's victory to give us license to disparage mostly decent folks.
Agreed. They live in Oklahoma. They've suffered enough.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 09:07 AM   #246
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Quote:
The Trump administration says Attorney General Jeff Sessions was acting as a then-U.S. senator when he talked to Russia’s ambassador at an event during last year’s Republican National Convention in Cleveland, but Sessions paid for convention travel expenses out of his own political funds and he spoke about Donald Trump’s campaign at the event, according to a person at the event and campaign-finance records.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ses...dor-2017-03-02

Now obviously 'according to a person at the event' is not reliable evidence. The campaign finance records are though. Instead of using work funds available for this sort of thing he used his own political funds. Doesn't prove anything, but a little odd.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 09:36 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
You seem to see conspiracies everywhere. But I admit, it's huffpo, I picked it quickly simply for the numbers, which you don't appear to disagree with. Do you ?
I'm the one who sees conspiracies everywhere? I'm not one of those recently (and conveniently) turned Russophobes who is searching high and low for evidence of contacts with Boris and Natasha. Did you check under your bed, by the way? There might be a Russkie hiding there. Also, I had a pastrami sandwich with Russian dressing yesterday. Do you think the Democratic party or the mainstream media (but I repeat myself) would be interested in that?

Quote:
No more so than you for reflexively defending trump, no matter the issue.
I do not reflexively defend Trump. It only seems like I do because I reflexively push back on nonsense, and Trump is making Democrats crazy.


Quote:
I don't see what's wrong. What nit would you like to pick ?
Flynn resigned because of a contact he had during the transition, not during the campaign. The campaign ended on November 8, 2016. Or at least it was supposed to.

Quote:
That Pence is a bumbling uninformed stooge ? I agree we don't have evidence of what pence knew and when. If you want to say it's not a lie (yet), I probably agree.
Not even necessarily misleading. He was asked about contacts with the Russians who were trying to meddle in the campaign. We do not know that the Russian ambassador had anything to do with the hacking of the DNC or John Podesta, or any other meddling. In fact, I'm inclined to doubt that he knew about it except in the most general terms.

Quote:
But again, it's huffpo. The point is, we are now up to at least 5 trump campaign members having contact with the Russians, with Trump and others denying anyone did.
Well, if you carefully read what A'isha wrote, you would see that those extra guys don't count.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 09:45 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I'm the one who sees conspiracies everywhere? I'm not one of those recently (and conveniently) turned Russophobes who is searching high and low for evidence of contacts with Boris and Natasha.
I've been intensely critical of Russia here since before the Ukraine invasion (and I've been actually critical of Russia since long before then, I just didn't post much about it).

Quote:
do not reflexively defend Trump.
Of course you do. That's why your defense here has been sad-sack nonsense like "Flynn resigned for lying about his communication with Russian officials during the transition, not the campaign! Checkmate, libs!"

Quote:
Well, if you carefully read what A'isha wrote, you would see that those extra guys don't count.
Oh, do tell.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 09:58 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
If Trump is indicative of the 'mainstream' I wouldn't want to be in touch with them...
Well, I'm certainly delighted about that. That will keep your side in the wilderness.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 09:59 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
That's your defense for Trump's son-in-law being revealed to have met with Russian officials alongside Flynn after months of denials that Flynn talked to anyone or that anyone in the administration knew about it? That the Russian Ambassador attended Trump's speech to Congress but "sat near Democrats"?

That deserves a laughing dog.
Denied talking about the campaign.

It also talked about Dems meeting him also, right before your very eyes, oh my!
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:01 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I'm the one who sees conspiracies everywhere? I'm not one of those recently (and conveniently) turned Russophobes who is searching high and low for evidence of contacts with Boris and Natasha. Did you check under your bed, by the way? There might be a Russkie hiding there. Also, I had a pastrami sandwich with Russian dressing yesterday. Do you think the Democratic party or the mainstream media (but I repeat myself) would be interested in that?
See below.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I do not reflexively defend Trump. It only seems like I do because I reflexively push back on nonsense, and Trump is making Democrats crazy.
Disagree.


Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Flynn resigned because of a contact he had during the transition, not during the campaign. The campaign ended on November 8, 2016. Or at least it was supposed to.
So a nit.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Not even necessarily misleading. He was asked about contacts with the Russians who were trying to meddle in the campaign. We do not know that the Russian ambassador had anything to do with the hacking of the DNC or John Podesta, or any other meddling. In fact, I'm inclined to doubt that he knew about it except in the most general terms.
So a nit.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Well, if you carefully read what A'isha wrote, you would see that those extra guys don't count.
I guess we'll have to see how the "less than honest" part plays out before I conclude they don't count.

ETA:In February, former Donald Trump campaign adviser Carter Page told Judy Woodruff on the PBS NewsHour that he had “no meetings” with Russian officials last year.

So he definitely counts.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:04 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
So how's everybody doing this morning?
Actually the weather is quite nice here. After skimming this thread I may just head back outside.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:05 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Do you see what's wrong with calling that a lie?
I don't know, how about highlighting the words in a way that changes their meaning, sunmaster? How about we try it this way:

Quote:
“Just to button up one question, did any adviser or anybody in the Trump campaign have any contact with the Russians, who were trying to meddle in the election?” CBS “Face the Nation” host John Dickerson asked.
Gee, that seems to change the meaning, doesn't it?
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:07 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
I've been intensely critical of Russia here since before the Ukraine invasion (and I've been actually critical of Russia since long before then, I just didn't post much about it).
Yeah. Aside from kicking Nazi ass, when's the last time that Russia was a force for positive change in the world?
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:19 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Denied talking about the campaign.
Denied talking about sanctions, when he actually did talk about sanctions.

Quote:
It also talked about Dems meeting him also, right before your very eyes, oh my!
No it didn't, it linked to a tweet from a Fox News talking head claiming he once saw Dianne Feinstein eating with the Russian Ambassador in the Senate Dining Room (where everyone knows meetings with foreign diplomats always take place).
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:20 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeah. Aside from kicking Nazi ass, when's the last time that Russia was a force for positive change in the world?
They brought us Tetris.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:24 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
I hope they let Flynn know he can have his job back, then, since sunmaster14 thinks he resigned for no reason at all.
Technically, it was his less-than-candid disclosure to Mike Pence, wasn't it?

ETA: Or just a kind of critical mass as is often the case. I remember Conway being grilled about the timing and apparent urgency of Flynn's resignation, when Trump had apparently known of the situation for some time.

Last edited by Minoosh; 3rd March 2017 at 10:30 AM. Reason: Editing my edit
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:24 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeah. Aside from kicking Nazi ass, when's the last time that Russia was a force for positive change in the world?
Their space program is pretty swell... They currently have the only means of getting humans to the ISS. Who would have thought that the Soyuz would be a workhorse in the 21st century?
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:27 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeah. Aside from kicking Nazi ass, when's the last time that Russia was a force for positive change in the world?
Well, the crushing Jew-hatred did end up flooding NY with a lot of talented barbers.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:27 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Denied talking about sanctions, when he actually did talk about sanctions.



No it didn't, it linked to a tweet from a Fox News talking head claiming he once saw Dianne Feinstein eating with the Russian Ambassador in the Senate Dining Room (where everyone knows meetings with foreign diplomats always take place).
Yes, I read the tweets.

I wonder WHEN ole Brit saw Diane Feinstein eating with the Russian Ambassador.

Was it during a national convention?
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:31 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
They brought us Tetris.


ETA: They also inspired the competitiveness that ultimately benefited the U.S.

Last edited by Minoosh; 3rd March 2017 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:35 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeah. Aside from kicking Nazi ass, when's the last time that Russia was a force for positive change in the world?
Well, ...

There are the Russian Roads,
the Russian Sewage System,
the Russian Education Programs,
the Russian Medicine, and
the Russian Law and Order.

Oh sorry!

It was actually the Romans who provided all of that to Judea.

P.S.: I totally stole this joke from Monty Python!
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:36 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Have you ever thought of why your side is in such a terrible position?
Your side sells hate and ignorance with astounding success.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:38 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Technically, it was his less-than-candid disclosure to Mike Pence, wasn't it?
Yes, but sunmaster14 is apparently arguing that Flynn had contact with the Russians during the transition, and Pence's statement based on what Flynn told him referred strictly and specifically to the campaign, therefore neither Flynn nor Pence lied about anything.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:48 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
... snipped for relevance ...

I do not reflexively defend Trump. It only seems like I do because I reflexively push back on nonsense, and Trump is making Democrats crazy.

... snipped for relevance ...
I quite agree! You sure do seem to reflexively defend Trump.

Such as just yesterday, you were defended Trump for using teleprompters when he was both a presidential candidate and as president, and yet it was this very same Trump who bitched and complained when both a presidential candidate and a sitting president used a teleprompter.
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On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
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Old 3rd March 2017, 11:29 AM   #266
sunmaster14
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeah. Aside from kicking Nazi ass, when's the last time that Russia was a force for positive change in the world?
Kicked Nazi ass? The Soviet Union had 20,000,000 war dead and took 350,000 casualties in less than 3 weeks trying to take Berlin. Sure they won, but that's not my working definition of kicking anything except lots of buckets.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 12:10 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Kicked Nazi ass? The Soviet Union had 20,000,000 war dead and took 350,000 casualties in less than 3 weeks trying to take Berlin. Sure they won, but that's not my working definition of kicking anything except lots of buckets.
Now you're just disagreeing for its own sake.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 12:53 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Your side sells hate and ignorance with astounding success.
Got it in one!!!!
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Old 3rd March 2017, 12:55 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Wow that article is embarrassingly inaccurate (perhaps purposefully). You should hide your head in shame for citing it.

The very first paragraph is wrong (my emphasis added):




And here is what the article cites as Pence's alleged lie (emphasis added):



Do you see what's wrong with calling that a lie?
Do you understand that the issue is not whether or not Pence lied, but whether he was lied to. And this seems to be universally accepted: Flynn claimed to not have spoken about sanctions with the Russian ambassador, but Flynn did speak about sanctions with him.

What's a bit more shameful is that Trump knew about Flynn's lie three weeks before Pence, who learned about it by watching or reading the news. Pence should feel mighty ashamed by allowing himself to be treated so badly. But Pence is a very fine li'l soldier and won't show any evidence of annoyance.

Anyway, nice way to pretend the issue here is with what Pence said, rather than what he was told.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 12:57 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Agreed. They live in Oklahoma. They've suffered enough.
Hey, now. Oklahoma can be a decent place to live. Stillwater was a great town, back in my day. A little duller now, from what I've seen.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 01:23 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Do you understand that the issue is not whether or not Pence lied, but whether he was lied to. And this seems to be universally accepted: Flynn claimed to not have spoken about sanctions with the Russian ambassador, but Flynn did speak about sanctions with him.

What's a bit more shameful is that Trump knew about Flynn's lie three weeks before Pence, who learned about it by watching or reading the news. Pence should feel mighty ashamed by allowing himself to be treated so badly. But Pence is a very fine li'l soldier and won't show any evidence of annoyance.

Anyway, nice way to pretend the issue here is with what Pence said, rather than what he was told.
I was only commenting on the inaccuracy of the HuffPo article. It was a mess.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 01:41 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I was only commenting on the inaccuracy of the HuffPo article. It was a mess.
No it wasn't.
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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States...nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
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Old 3rd March 2017, 01:52 PM   #273
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
<snip>

And considering the horribly short attention span that Trump has, then it is usually better to use his current statements on issues as opposed to his previous statements on issues if one wants to know his mind on this, that, or the other.

<snip>

Assumes facts not in evidence.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 02:11 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ses...dor-2017-03-02

Now obviously 'according to a person at the event' is not reliable evidence. The campaign finance records are though. Instead of using work funds available for this sort of thing he used his own political funds. Doesn't prove anything, but a little odd.
Regarding this, seems like he either lied previously and committed perjury, or committed campaign finance fraud.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 02:17 PM   #275
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When is this going to get more attention:

5 times Donald Trump’s team denied contact with Russia
Quote:
But importantly, the new reports do seem to contradict claims the Trump campaign and now the Trump White House have made about their lack of contact with Russia. They have said in various ways that there was no contact, on multiple occasions, and as recently as Tuesday afternoon.

Trump reportedly denied any campaign-season contact between those close to him and Russia after a mid-January news conference. After being asked about it at the end of the conference, he didn't answer the question. Reporters chased him down afterward, at which point, according to CNN's Jim Acosta and ABC's Cecilia Vega, Trump flatly denied any contact between his associates or his campaign and Russia.
Direct contradictions, Trump knew full well about Flynn's contacts and surely he knew about his son-in-law meeting at Trump Towers.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 02:25 PM   #276
phiwum
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Regarding this, seems like he either lied previously and committed perjury, or committed campaign finance fraud.
Maybe. This isn't so clear to me. It certainly requires some investigation.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 05:20 PM   #277
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The Democrats botched this line of attack. Claire Mccaskill and Nancy Pelosi can't even get their own stories straight about meeting with Russian officials. Have the Russians infiltrated both political parties?
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Old 3rd March 2017, 05:26 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Your side sells hate and ignorance with astounding success.
Your side exploits the races to gain votes. Your side has a KKK senator. Your side is Goerge Wallace, Bull Conor, William Fulbright.

My side has people like Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther king.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 05:29 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post


No it didn't, it linked to a tweet from a Fox News talking head claiming he once saw Dianne Feinstein eating with the Russian Ambassador in the Senate Dining Room (where everyone knows meetings with foreign diplomats always take place).
Lol

I just heard Obama met with him 22 amazing times! Bet they were giggling about how stupid hillary and podesta were.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 05:31 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The Democrats botched this line of attack. Claire Mccaskill and Nancy Pelosi can't even get their own stories straight about meeting with Russian officials. Have the Russians infiltrated both political parties?
Do you have a link where democrats have lied about contacts with Russian government officials?
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