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Tags antifa , assault incidents , eric clanton , protest incidents

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Old 30th May 2017, 01:55 PM   #201
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
And Islamic extremists too!

Wait, they don't?
We've had known Islamic extremists and preachers in this country, and yet the AntiFa, like the EDL have done sod-all about any of it.

Both groups are akin to some kind of small-scale superhero who only rescues cats from trees and collects spiders in tumblers from the houses of frightened house-wives.

"Bloody hell, Gary, we're really doing this country some justice by chucking beer cans at those skinheads!" - said the goon in the bandanna.
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Old 30th May 2017, 02:00 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
First off, who said "who cares?" I clearly said that members of both groups can and have done such stupid things as that. My point was that you made the EDL out to be some high-functioning, well-organised unit of men. They're a bunch of knobs. You don't have to be in the EDL to get drunk and beat someone up.
I'm not calling them high-functioning or even well organized. They are organized racists though. And no, you don't have to be in the EDL to get drunk and beat someone up. Again, it's about intent, and the targets they chose.


Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Stupid people do stupid things, my point is, do you need to don a hoodie, wear a bandanna and cause riots in the streets because some drunken knob beat up an immigrant? You make it seem like people getting beaten up isn't something that's already been happening, regardless of race, for centuries. Stupid people do stupid things over pretty much everything, football being one of them.
And the EDL does it because they are racists, targeting minorities.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
That's a job for the police, mate, not a bunch of drunken, dreadlocked teenagers. Let the big boys deal with the silly boys. No idea why you think this justifies the AntiFa in any way...
It doesn't. I am objecting specifically to you characterizing them as more or less the same as the EDL. They are not. By virtue of targeting racists and Nazis, they are leagues ahead of the EDL in the virtue department.


Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
AntiFa targets people who pose no real threat to the country whatsoever.

1. You might want to tell everyone who worries about populist right wing movements sweeping across the Western world, supported by outfits like the EDL and the alt-right.

2. They are a threat to many inhabitants in the country.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
EDL crimes probably account for a lot less than the average rugby or football match between rival districts on a drunken weekend. AntiFa are doing a job that is pointless, that nobody appointed them to do.
Beating up Nazis is never pointless, but sure. Nobody appointed them to it, and they shouldn't do it. Do you really feel it necessary to dismiss EDL crimes like that? Do you honestly believe that the EDL, or organizations like the EDL in other countries, don't commit crimes to any large degree?


Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
My claim was that both groups cause trouble for the public, the council, and the emergency services. In that way, they're indistinguishable. I was correct.
Had you specified it like that, yes. But you didn't, so you weren't.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I know all about it and I've worked at many matches where this kind of nonsense took place, on the whole, it's limited to smaller towns, and smaller venues than most football games. It's rare you see any kind of this activity at the top-flight clubs, and in general it's a lot rarer in the UK than in Turkey or Germany.
That's because the British police has gotten really good at working against this kind of thing. Now, the firms are reorganized in racist street gangs, like the EDL. I've worked football too.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I don't see how this makes the EDL some well-organised machine.
If only someone had called them that.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
They're not. It takes no planning or cunning to beat a defenseless person up. That's general yobbery and happens everywhere, with or without racists.
The point, which you keep trying to get away from, is that these people are racist, and specifically target minorities.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
No, the AntiFa targets largely unimportant groups of general bigots who pose no real threat to anyone. On the whole, the damage caused by such clashes between the two is worse than the damage done by either individually.
No, they target the racists. It's in the name.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
The AntiFa could target actual threats to society, but they're neither big, bold, nor brave enough to bother doing that.
Who should the anti-fascists be targeting, considering that they are anti-fascists, and you have already concluded that there is no fascist threat to society?

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
They basically hang around town-centers throwing bricks and making a fuss for the general public and the police alike.
It's normally called counter-protesting. Antifa rarely hold demonstrations of their own.
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Old 30th May 2017, 02:02 PM   #203
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Right wing extremists are by far the biggest threat to the United States.
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Old 30th May 2017, 02:03 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Right wing extremists are by far the biggest threat to the United States.
Yup. Same goes for most Western countries. They have a head-wind now, with Brexit and Trump.
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Old 30th May 2017, 02:31 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm not calling them high-functioning or even well organized. They are organized racists though. And no, you don't have to be in the EDL to get drunk and beat someone up. Again, it's about intent, and the targets they chose.
I don't see much organisation from them than a mere Facebook or similar social-media post, much like the AntiFa. They don't really do much besides march about, which is a problem for the local council and the emergency services. Such marches are not helped in any way by the addition of a rival gang of yobs such as the AntiFa. Such events are made worse by the addition of the AntiFa, which is of course ironic and silly for a group supposedly intending to end ignorance.




Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
And the EDL does it because they are racists, targeting minorities.
Again, that's a job for the Boys in Blue, not some whiney teenager in a hoodie with a brick in his hand.



Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It doesn't. I am objecting specifically to you characterizing them as more or less the same as the EDL. They are not. By virtue of targeting racists and Nazis, they are leagues ahead of the EDL in the virtue department.
I've explained in what ways they are exactly similar to the EDL, you just keep ignoring it and making the same odd post. I obviously know that the EDL are against ethnics and the AntiFa are against bigotry, this is painfully obvious to anyone and need not be mentioned. My point, that I've posted several times, is that they're very similar in the sense that they are useless causes which cause more trouble than they do good.





Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
1. You might want to tell everyone who worries about populist right wing movements sweeping across the Western world, supported by outfits like the EDL and the alt-right.

2. They are a threat to many inhabitants in the country.
1) The EDL accounts for far less crime than the average nightclub in a populated area sees in one year of its residency.

2) They are no more a threat to the general public than the AntiFa are, and controlling such behaviour is a job for the police, and not a group of teenagers. The AntiFa have done absolutely nothing in the battle against bigotry other than make things worse for the police and the general public. Ethnic people and gays alike get just as much trouble from people who have no affiliation with any EDL group.


Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Beating up Nazis is never pointless, but sure. Nobody appointed them to it, and they shouldn't do it. Do you really feel it necessary to dismiss EDL crimes like that? Do you honestly believe that the EDL, or organizations like the EDL in other countries, don't commit crimes to any large degree?
"Beating up Nazi's" is definitely pointless in that it says nothing to the wider world, it demonstrates as much hate as it's supposed to be against, it doesn't change said Nazi's outlook and probably actually reinforces it, it causes issues for the police and likely elicits a response from said Nazi and his mates.

I don't dismiss the EDL's crimes, my point is that their crimes are few and far between and are better dealt with by actual men with authority, not children with dreadlocks and Guy Fawkes masks.

Of course right-wing groups throughout the world cause issues, but so do the groups that oppose them, lol, that's my point. Ever been to Germany and seen the problems that arise between Nazi's and AntiFa? It's silly and neither is doing the world any good. It's like throwing a grenade at a bees nest in order to get rid of it.




Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Had you specified it like that, yes. But you didn't, so you weren't.
That's funny, because I literally posted it exactly like that several times, yet you ignored it and kept on making a moot point. That's on you, not me, mate.



Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That's because the British police has gotten really good at working against this kind of thing. Now, the firms are reorganized in racist street gangs, like the EDL. I've worked football too.
Not entirely, it's mainly because it doesn't happen on a scale that it did in the 70s and 80s. I don't know of any large-scale groups of hooligans who even attempt to attend football matches. I'm not saying they don't exist, but it's not merely down to police presence that it doesn't occur all that much. It's mainly down to it being a dying act. The police did do a good job of banning a lot of these people, but on the whole that is not what stopped it from being a huge problem.



Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
If only someone had called them that.
You earlier made them out to be such, or at least attempted to, but now you seem to be downplaying it because you likely know it's not true. They're about as organised as any Facebook group.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The point, which you keep trying to get away from, is that these people are racist, and specifically target minorities.
No, they target random Mosques and random people they think are an issue to the UK. Nobody said this was in any way a good thing, but it's a problem for the police. On the whole, they're no different than a night in a populated city center where alcohol is drank to excess. The police have a far greater nuisance of a time sorting out drunken louts in nightclubs than they do with the EDL per year.

This is another case of you making the EDL out to be some amazingly well-organized group who pull of crafty operations. What the average EDL member does is no different to what the average racist non-EDL member does. In parts of Toxteth here in Liverpool, we actually see a lot of black on white crime, but oddly no AntiFa presence.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, they target the racists. It's in the name.
No, they target select groups of racists and people who're generally no more of a threat to society than the AntiFa are. Can you name any legitimate EDL member who was a known threat to the public and was sufficiently dealt with by the AntiFa? Probably not, because it never happens, they just target average blokes who are dumb but not a major issue.



Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Who should the anti-fascists be targeting, considering that they are anti-fascists, and you have already concluded that there is no fascist threat to society?
Groups of people who actually pose a sufficient threat to the public. Not some fat skinhead who thinks "Muslims should go home!"

Better yet, they should do something worth while for the public or the groups they're pretending to protect, y'know, raising money, helping to repair damage to buildings, stuff like that, but hey, who needs that boring stuff when you're an ignorant kid with a brick in your hand?



Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's normally called counter-protesting. Antifa rarely hold demonstrations of their own.
Yeah, and ironically it normally ends in them getting themselves arrested for doing stupid things:

Of course, few causes can be more deserving than resistance to the EDL and British National Party. But the uncomfortable truth about UAF is that it contains more than a trace of fascism itself. It specialises, as seen in Oxford, in organising counter-demonstrations to any activity, or anticipated activity, by the far Right.
Unfortunately, UAF’s counter-demonstrations often seem to cause as much, if not more, trouble than those by the EDL and BNP.
Since the murder of Drummer Lee Rigby last month, there have reportedly been at least 107 arrests during BNP, EDL and UAF demonstrations. At least 69 of those arrested, just under two thirds, were anti-fascist demonstrators, at least 58 of them UAF.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalis...e-of-hate.html
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Old 30th May 2017, 02:49 PM   #206
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Gonna start snipping because we're talking in circles.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
1) The EDL accounts for far less crime than the average nightclub in a populated area sees in one year of its residency.
Evidence. You also didn't address my point, like, at all.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
2) They are no more a threat to the general public than the AntiFa are
Unless your skin color isn't milky white, or you're a guy that dates guys.


Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I don't dismiss the EDL's crimes, my point is that their crimes are few and far between and are better dealt with by actual men with authority, not children with dreadlocks and Guy Fawkes masks.
You don't dismiss their crimes, then you go ahead and dismiss their crimes.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Of course right-wing groups throughout the world cause issues, but so do the groups that oppose them,
Take away the Fascists, the Antifa go away. Take away the Antifa, the Nazis remain a problem.




Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
That's funny, because I literally posted it exactly like that several times, yet you ignored it and kept on making a moot point. That's on you, not me, mate.
Quote:
I see no difference between a twat with an England football shirt on, and a twat with an Anarchy shirt on. They're both as thick as two short planks and neither have any real idea of what it is they're supposed to be battling against.
Quote:
Actual crimes can and have been committed by both groups of people, which is why I think they're both cut from the same cloth; thick, ignorant, entitled, and drunk.
Quote:
My claim was that both groups cause trouble for the public, the council, and the emergency services. In that way, they're indistinguishable. I was correct.
Yeah, no.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
You earlier made them out to be such, or at least attempted to, but now you seem to be downplaying it because you likely know it's not true. They're about as organised as any Facebook group.
No, I didn't. I very specifically didn't. Stop lying.


Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
No, they target random Mosques and random people they think are an issue to the UK. Nobody said this was in any way a good thing, but it's a problem for the police.
I think you are forgetting someone else it's a problem for: the victims.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
On the whole, they're no different than a night in a populated city center where alcohol is drank to excess. The police have a far greater nuisance of a time sorting out drunken louts in nightclubs than they do with the EDL per year.
*sigh* Again, the difference is obvious for anyone with a functioning brain: intent and choice of targets

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
This is another case of you making the EDL out to be some amazingly well-organized group who pull of crafty operations. What the average EDL member does is no different to what the average racist non-EDL member does. In parts of Toxteth here in Liverpool, we actually see a lot of black on white crime, but oddly no AntiFa presence.
No, that's not what I'm doing at all. You're lying again.


Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
No, they target select groups of racists and people who're generally no more of a threat to society than the AntiFa are. Can you name any legitimate EDL member who was a known threat to the public and was sufficiently dealt with by the AntiFa? Probably not, because it never happens, they just target average blokes who are dumb but not a major issue.
They are a threat to parts of society. That you don't happen to belong to those parts don't make them less of a threat.


Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Groups of people who actually pose a sufficient threat to the public. Not some fat skinhead who thinks "Muslims should go home!"
Who, specifically? Who should the anti-fascists be targeting, if not the fascists?

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Better yet, they should do something worth while for the public or the groups they're pretending to protect, y'know, raising money, helping to repair damage to buildings, stuff like that, but hey, who needs that boring stuff when you're an ignorant kid with a brick in your hand?
Who are you to say that they're not doing those things as well? Do you know for a fact that they don't?

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Yeah, and ironically it normally ends in them getting themselves arrested for doing stupid things:

Of course, few causes can be more deserving than resistance to the EDL and British National Party. But the uncomfortable truth about UAF is that it contains more than a trace of fascism itself. It specialises, as seen in Oxford, in organising counter-demonstrations to any activity, or anticipated activity, by the far Right.
Unfortunately, UAF’s counter-demonstrations often seem to cause as much, if not more, trouble than those by the EDL and BNP.
Since the murder of Drummer Lee Rigby last month, there have reportedly been at least 107 arrests during BNP, EDL and UAF demonstrations. At least 69 of those arrested, just under two thirds, were anti-fascist demonstrators, at least 58 of them UAF.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalis...e-of-hate.html
So you're backing away from your statement that Antifa are "basically hang[ing] around town-centers throwing bricks and making a fuss for the general public and the police alike"?

Also, the quoted snipped makes no sense. How do Antifa have fascist tendencies because they get arrested? Should expect nothing less from the Torygraph, I suppose.
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Old 30th May 2017, 03:35 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Gonna start snipping because we're talking in circles.



Evidence. You also didn't address my point, like, at all.
You had a point? Well, let's see, this should be pretty easy to test out, search any large populated city's police crime-stats for drunken behaviour, general assault etc, and compare that to the city's problem with EDL groups. Being a person who has worked as a doorman in nightclubs, events, and the like, I've seen far more drunken trouble-making by average people of all colours and creeds, but I've seen maybe 2 issues stemming from the EDL in all my years doing my job. Just ask any police in the town center on a Friday/Saturday night about the EDL and he'll tell you he has far more trouble with the average Stella Artois-enraged man/woman.

I remember specifically one EDL march in Liverpool in the last few years, one march that caused disruption, but little else. Whereas in the last few years I've probably seen about 200 fights, a dozen gang-assaults, a handful of people being "glassed" and maybe one stabbing.

Yeah, the EDL are a major problem on these streets.



Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Unless your skin color isn't milky white, or you're a guy that dates guys.
And the AntiFa are rallying against prejudice and racism unless you happen to be black or Asian and are attacking whites. Racism is racism, but oddly, you never see any AntiFa action occurring because of black on white crime, which happens a lot in parts of the North-West. Specifically, Liverpool and Manchester have a lot of problems not just with white racism, but black on white racism. Do you think it'd be just as justified for the AntiFa to protest against that, too?

Nearly half of all victims of racially motivated murders in the last decade have been white, according to official figures released by the Home Office.
The data, released under Freedom of Information legislation, shows that between 1995 and 2004 there have been 58 murders where the police consider a racial element played a key part. Out of these, 24 have been where the murder victim was white.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/oct/22/ukcrime.race

Very little AntiFa action seems to have been taken from 1996-2006, despite a lot of reported racist attacks. Do they only target white racists? If so, why?




Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You don't dismiss their crimes, then you go ahead and dismiss their crimes.
Nope, I dismiss the idea that their crimes are an issue to the country any more so than the crime we see in every city of a weekend. We see men and women of all colours and creeds doing battle whilst drunk nearly every night of the week, how many EDL crimes do we see per week by comparison?



Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Take away the Fascists, the Antifa go away. Take away the Antifa, the Nazis remain a problem.
This is incredibly naive and frankly silly stuff to see coming from an adult. Obviously, ignorance is something that will never be eradicated, because humans will never agree on everything, they never have. How does one take away fascism? How does one do away with ignorance? How is beating up a Nazi any different than beating up a Muslim? That's still ignorance and hate. Those things are eternal.



Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yeah, no.
Yes. You seem hesitant to tackle that post of mine. Why is that?




Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, I didn't. I very specifically didn't. Stop lying.
You said:
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Where I'm from, the EDL is yet another extreme right wing organisation in a slew of other extreme right wing organisations. You might think they are just a bunch of drunken hooligans, but they are a bunch of organized drunken hooligans out to make life more difficult for immigrants, gays and other minorities.





Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I think you are forgetting someone else it's a problem for: the victims.
And their families. So, tell me, what of the families and victims affected by the AntiFa "beating up Nazi's"? Is that somehow different or is violence only violence when being committed by people who are racists?



Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
*sigh* Again, the difference is obvious for anyone with a functioning brain: intent and choice of targets
We've discussed this about 10 times, lol. I've said that the obvious difference is their targets, that need not be mentioned, as I said about 10 times...yet you keep mentioning it, presumably because you keep forgetting(?) Idk. Either way, I've stated about 10 times what the similarities are, and yet here we are again... I think that's the opposite of a functioning brain, tbh.




Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, that's not what I'm doing at all. You're lying again.
I've not told a single lie here. I also see that you skipped over the line re: a lack of AntiFa presence in areas that tend to have a lot of racially motivated black on white attacks.




Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
They are a threat to parts of society. That you don't happen to belong to those parts don't make them less of a threat.
Isn't that the same thing with the AntiFa? They're a threat to a specific part of society of which I don't have any affiliation with? You said earlier than beating up Nazi's wasn't pointless, conveniently ignoring the fact that violence is violence and ignorance is ignorance. Neither is right. Neither does anything but fuel more hate and more violence.



Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Who, specifically? Who should the anti-fascists be targeting, if not the fascists?
Put it this way, do they target known criminals? Do they target genuine threats to society? No, they target people no different to them, average white blokes with a drunken opinion, which is ironic!

What they could do, as I suggested, is raise money for victims of racist attacks, help repair buildings that are damaged in such attacks, stuff like that, but instead, they do more damage than they prevent.



Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Who are you to say that they're not doing those things as well? Do you know for a fact that they don't?
I can't see any petitions on any of their pages that would suggest that they're in any way seeking to repair damage, or raise money. Basically, can you show me any evidence that they do actually attempt such things? Their pages discuss upcoming marches, but no information regarding charity-events that they've tried to hold. My local boxing club has raised more money for my local community than any AntiFa group has seemingly raised for even one injured victim.



Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
So you're backing away from your statement that Antifa are "basically hang[ing] around town-centers throwing bricks and making a fuss for the general public and the police alike"?

Also, the quoted snipped makes no sense. How do Antifa have fascist tendencies because they get arrested? Should expect nothing less from the Torygraph, I suppose.
Whatever gave you the odd idea that I was backing away? The article I posted basically goes on to explain exactly what I was discussing, lol, did you actually bother to read it?

Considering the fact that "fascism" can pertain to "intolerant views or practices," it's hardly a head-scratcher to see why they labelled the acts of the AntiFa as fascist. Neither group is tolerant; neither group practices tolerance.
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Old 30th May 2017, 04:21 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
They do, when they commit crimes.
Oh, I see. So Antifa attack the racists when they act within the law, but Antifa don't attack the extremist Islamists when they act within the law.

So explain why this is so and try not to dodge the question again.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Are you having trouble understanding something I've said? If so, just ask. Don't feel the need to defend vile Nazis just because there are Islamic extremists in the world. Thankfully, the struggle in Western countries isn't between Nazis and Islamists, but between Nazis and the rest of us.
Is it really? We have no problem with Nazis in the UK, indeed I don't even know if they exist here. Islamists, on the other hand, killed 22 parents and kids last week at a music concert in case you hadn't heard.
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Old 30th May 2017, 04:24 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
And the AntiFa are rallying against prejudice and racism unless you happen to be black or Asian and are attacking whites. Racism is racism, but oddly, you never see any AntiFa action occurring because of black on white crime, which happens a lot in parts of the North-West. Specifically, Liverpool and Manchester have a lot of problems not just with white racism, but black on white racism. Do you think it'd be just as justified for the AntiFa to protest against that, too?
Perhaps it may have something to do with motivation. White supremacism is closely associated with fascism/neo-Nazism; it's quite likely that of the 60% (from your numbers) of racially-motivated killings where the victims are non-whites, most or even possible all of those murders committed by white people (allowing the possibility of other circumstances) were likely committed by neo-Nazis or white-supremacists with fascistic leanings. So, it makes sense that anti-fascists might be protesting these crimes.

Whereas, cases of minorities killing white people for their race seem most often to involve personal revenge fantasies, or following the orders of a religious cult leader. The are very certainly non-white fascist-like organizations and philosophies out there; but I've not heard that they are common or prevalent among non-white racially-motivated criminals in the same way that neo-Nazism/white supremacism is among white ones.
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Old 30th May 2017, 04:46 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It doesn't. I am objecting specifically to you characterizing them as more or less the same as the EDL. They are not. By virtue of targeting racists and Nazis, they are leagues ahead of the EDL in the virtue department.

Problem is, some people actually like Nazis and racists, otherwise there wouldn't be any. In this country you are free to be either or both.

Just because you or some other people don't like it, doesn't mean your views are right. Therefore, you have no right whatsoever to force your own views on others through violence.

Someday, a similar group may judge you in a similar fashion. Maybe they won't like your skin color.

There was a time when enslaving people was legal. Bad stuff.
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Old 30th May 2017, 06:05 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Is it really? We have no problem with Nazis in the UK, indeed I don't even know if they exist here. Islamists, on the other hand, killed 22 parents and kids last week at a music concert in case you hadn't heard.
That's a point that AntiFa groups and their advocates don't like to discuss much.

AntiFa are only concerned with random drunken blokes waving England flags.

I'm interested to know what these AntiFa groups have ever done for victims of racism. It seems they don't do a lot other than cause chaos by clashing with EDL marches. Seems like a totally fruitless waste of time for all concerned.
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Old 30th May 2017, 06:18 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Perhaps it may have something to do with motivation. White supremacism is closely associated with fascism/neo-Nazism; it's quite likely that of the 60% (from your numbers) of racially-motivated killings where the victims are non-whites, most or even possible all of those murders committed by white people (allowing the possibility of other circumstances) were likely committed by neo-Nazis or white-supremacists with fascistic leanings. So, it makes sense that anti-fascists might be protesting these crimes.

Whereas, cases of minorities killing white people for their race seem most often to involve personal revenge fantasies, or following the orders of a religious cult leader. The are very certainly non-white fascist-like organizations and philosophies out there; but I've not heard that they are common or prevalent among non-white racially-motivated criminals in the same way that neo-Nazism/white supremacism is among white ones.
I get that aspect of it, but my problem with it all is that there are cases closer to home of apparently racist non-white violence, yet I never see any AntiFa groups speaking out against it. Yes, it's rarer in the scheme of things, but mainly because we only hear about the EDL/BNP, we don't hear about other non-white racial attacks often, but they do happen, and they go largely unnoticed.

My issue is that these AntiFa groups seem less interested in challenging actual fascism and ignorance than they let on. I don't understand how fighting in the streets is in any way remotely challenging the problem of ignorance.

The point I've been making all along is that neither group is better than the other. They both cause a disruption, both cause violence, both lack an understanding of the actual issues they're supposed to be supporting/rallying against, and both consist mainly of cowards.

Fascism has no colour, but apparently the so-called AntiFa only sees it when it's being committed by white drunks. That, to me, is ridiculous. I think there's no room for any racism or bigotry, and I'm happy to let the police deal with those who disagree. The police, not the AntiFa, are the men to deal with that, and they do it as best as they can without causing damage to their own cities, unlike the AntiFa, who apparently don't understand how their "counter-demonstrations" do nothing except limit our already limited emergency services and cost decent people money to fix shop-windows and pick up their strewn litter off the floor.
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Old 30th May 2017, 06:46 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I get that aspect of it, but my problem with it all is that there are cases closer to home of apparently racist non-white violence, yet I never see any AntiFa groups speaking out against it. Yes, it's rarer in the scheme of things, but mainly because we only hear about the EDL/BNP, we don't hear about other non-white racial attacks often, but they do happen, and they go largely unnoticed.
I think you've missed my point. I'm not talking about the occurrence of non-white violence in general; I'm saying, the occurrence of non-white violence that is tied to some kind of fascistic motivation in particular, seems to be so low when compared to the number of white perpetrators of racial who end up having fascistic sympathies, there's no "draw" for anti-fascists specifically.
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Old 30th May 2017, 07:07 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I think you've missed my point. I'm not talking about the occurrence of non-white violence in general; I'm saying, the occurrence of non-white violence that is tied to some kind of fascistic motivation in particular, seems to be so low when compared to the number of white perpetrators of racial who end up having fascistic sympathies, there's no "draw" for anti-fascists specifically.
But I think that point is rather redundant, because most AntiFa "action" doesn't seem to be in response to any kind of actual supremacist agenda. Fascism is fascism. I see no difference between, say, Somali youths targeting white youths in knife-attacks on our streets, than I do with a drunken white yob attacking an Asian man.

Both attacks lack any kind of actual cause other than ignorance and violence.

There are enough examples of genuine hate-preachers, black, brown and white, in the UK, yet the AntiFa has nothing to say about any of it unless it's committed by a white man. Most white yobs who beat up an Asian or a black man are doing it out of stupidity, ignorance, and having the opportunity to, not because it's some big EDL operation.

There are operations going on among dangerous groups of savages who would gladly blow up a bunch of children, but again, the AntiFa has nothing to say about it, nor do they go to Speakers-Corner to challenge the Imam Choudery's of the world, but they do hang about when some douche like Nick Griffin has something to say. Why one and not the other?

How can you possibly be anti-fascism while only targeting one specific corner of the problem?

The EDL are not some far-right German/Russian group doing battle with the military. They're largely a group that does nothing besides march and throw beer bottles at mosques when the police aren't looking.

AntiFa groups could and should be out doing good for their own communities. Nothing says "F you!" more to the EDL than a group of people showing support for their ethnic neighbours by helping them rebuild their damaged buildings and raising money for victims of racist violence.

Anyone who thinks that donning a mask and hitting the streets to "clash" with opposing marches is in any way good for our community, is frankly naive and likely not too far removed from their teenage years.
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Old 31st May 2017, 01:01 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post

Take away the Fascists, the Antifa go away

.
This may be the stupidest thing you have said.

Antifa define who are the "Fascists"; they can adjust their definition to maintain their excuse to continue to not go away.
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Old 31st May 2017, 02:35 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
That's a point that AntiFa groups and their advocates don't like to discuss much.

AntiFa are only concerned with random drunken blokes waving England flags.

I'm interested to know what these AntiFa groups have ever done for victims of racism. It seems they don't do a lot other than cause chaos by clashing with EDL marches. Seems like a totally fruitless waste of time for all concerned.
Of course, Antifa and the UAF aren't interested in helping anyone, they just want to cause chaos. They are resentful at being life's losers. Half of them are anarchists, the rest a motley crew of squatters, junkies, self-professed Marxists, middle-class rebels without a clue, professional agitators and assorted bedroom dwellers. Of those who won't die at 30 with a needle hanging out their arm, most will either end up in jail, subsist in a yurt making charcoal, or be forced by circumstance to face up to real life, at which point they will become Conservatives.

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Old 31st May 2017, 03:05 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Right wing extremists are by far the biggest threat to the United States.
And the antics of these anti-fascits are only helping them.
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Old 31st May 2017, 06:11 AM   #218
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Mod WarningKeep to the topic of this thread which is not Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign nor Donald Trump's. Further off-topic comments will result in further moderation which may include infractions, suspensions and bannings.
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Old 31st May 2017, 06:22 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
And the antics of these anti-fascits are only helping them.
And then they get their own heros that also help them, like Dylann Roof and Jeremy Joseph Christian.

Violence is ever only appropriate against journalists who ask questions about policy. Then it is a great thing.

Does anything ever actually hurt fascists as a movement?
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Old 31st May 2017, 06:34 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And then they get their own heros that also help them, like Dylann Roof and Jeremy Joseph Christian.

Violence is ever only appropriate against journalists who ask questions about policy. Then it is a great thing.

Does anything ever actually hurt fascists as a movement?
Good question. Have you tried sarcasm?
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Old 31st May 2017, 06:57 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
This may be the stupidest thing you have said.

Antifa define who are the "Fascists"; they can adjust their definition to maintain their excuse to continue to not go away.
That is clearly true.

I'll have to see if I can find the source of the following info but:

One of the podcasts I listen to interviewed a guy a while back who claims there is demonstrated correlation between violent protests and conservative electoral victories and peaceful protests and liberal electoral victories. This was based on data from the 60s, so results may vary but it suggests that antifa's tactics are counter-productive. It also confirms my bias, which is they are mostly just violent thugs wrapping themselves in self righteous rhetoric.
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Old 31st May 2017, 07:24 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Good question. Have you tried sarcasm?
What that is basic republican talking points. You don't see them decrying assaulting the press for asking questions and many are very supportive of it.

It is all about choosing the right victims. Nazi's are good patriotic americans, unlike the press who are enemies of the american people.

That is the state of modern conservatism right there.
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Old 31st May 2017, 08:44 AM   #223
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Seems like Professor Bikelock made bail and crawled back into his hidey hole.

His lawyer was on TV last night, making an utter jackhole of himself, suggesting that a guy on his knees on the ground deserved to get brained because he or someone else was using mean words.
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Old 31st May 2017, 12:28 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And then they get their own heros that also help them, like Dylann Roof and Jeremy Joseph Christian.

<snip>

At least this time they can't claim he isn't a true Christian.

Unless he was adopted, I guess.
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Old 31st May 2017, 01:04 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Seems like Professor Bikelock made bail and crawled back into his hidey hole.

His lawyer was on TV last night, making an utter jackhole of himself, suggesting that a guy on his knees on the ground deserved to get brained because he or someone else was using mean words.
Interesting, sounds like they aren't going with the SODDIT defense (some other dude did it). The prosecution must really have a strong case.
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Old 31st May 2017, 01:48 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Interesting, sounds like they aren't going with the SODDIT defense (some other dude did it). The prosecution must really have a strong case.
I don't mean to give the impression that it was all about mean words, he was being 'coy' about whether Professor BikeLock was there. The reports do mention physical evidence, including what one would presume is blood from the "lac' that only needed a quick 'stitch' gaping head wound that needed five staples to close.
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Old 31st May 2017, 02:04 PM   #227
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One would think that if [sucker] punching Nazis were the immense social good it's being made out to be, then upstanding citizens like Prof. Bike Lock and Mouldylocks would look forward to their day in court and proudly own their brave attempts at keeping the USofA from sliding further into fascist dictatordom. And that they'd swing merrily away with faces uncovered so as to provide a nice head-shot for posters they could have printed and put up to encourage the idle youth to take up arms (and bricks) against a rising tide of oppression.

Why, it's almost as if this whole "Dude, I'd totally punch a Nazi For Great Justice" thing is merely a pretext for a collective of wankers to anonymously bust some heads and break **** because of political/social disagreements.
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Old 31st May 2017, 02:45 PM   #228
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Like with the Sea Shepherd folks, it's less about protest or activism, and more about confrontation junkies getting their fix.
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Old 31st May 2017, 02:50 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What that is basic republican talking points. You don't see them decrying assaulting the press for asking questions and many are very supportive of it.

It is all about choosing the right victims. Nazi's are good patriotic americans, unlike the press who are enemies of the american people.

That is the state of modern conservatism right there.
Is that sarcasm? It doesn't seem to be working. Try harder.
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Old 31st May 2017, 03:39 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
From my experience, "Anti-Fascist" groups are largely populated by complete and utter retards who have nothing better to do with their life than create as much nonsensical trouble in the streets of their own and other peoples towns than their supposed opponents do.

Most of them don't have a clue what they're talking about and are generally just after a bit of a riot because they just listened to a Clash album and bought a new Sex Pistols t-shirt. White guys with dreadlocks and V for Vendetta masks, talking about ignorance, when they're about as ignorant as any racist they pretend to have some kind of beef with.
If 'cash 4 clothes' paid out for drivel, you could give up work tomorrow. Show us any evidence you've got for that ***** you spouted and we can discuss. Otherwise, stick to the violence you know and love that comes free with your job and free of any recourse to bullies such as you and your cohort enjoy.
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Old 31st May 2017, 04:24 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
If 'cash 4 clothes' paid out for drivel, you could give up work tomorrow. Show us any evidence you've got for that ***** you spouted and we can discuss. Otherwise, stick to the violence you know and love that comes free with your job and free of any recourse to bullies such as you and your cohort enjoy.
Triggered!!!!!!!
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Old 31st May 2017, 04:40 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
If 'cash 4 clothes' paid out for drivel, you could give up work tomorrow. Show us any evidence you've got for that ***** you spouted and we can discuss. Otherwise, stick to the violence you know and love that comes free with your job and free of any recourse to bullies such as you and your cohort enjoy.
LOL
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Old 31st May 2017, 06:26 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What that is basic republican talking points. You don't see them decrying assaulting the press for asking questions and many are very supportive of it.

It is all about choosing the right victims. Nazi's are good patriotic americans, unlike the press who are enemies of the american people.

That is the state of modern conservatism right there.
Well as a non-republican do I get to talk about how I don't like political violence of any sort?
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Old 31st May 2017, 10:09 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Of course, Antifa and the UAF aren't interested in helping anyone, they just want to cause chaos. They are resentful at being life's losers. Half of them are anarchists, the rest a motley crew of squatters, junkies, self-professed Marxists, middle-class rebels without a clue, professional agitators and assorted bedroom dwellers. Of those who won't die at 30 with a needle hanging out their arm, most will either end up in jail, subsist in a yurt making charcoal, or be forced by circumstance to face up to real life, at which point they will become Conservatives.
I agree. And having actually known and met many people associated with such groups, I can say that most of them are posers, pretend Punk-rock fans who wear DK "Nazi Punks **** Off" shirts without realizing what that song was even about or what the hell Jello Biafra was talking about, most of them are conspiracy nuts who still drone on about 9/11 being an "inside job," rattling on about chem-trails and smoking rollies while avoiding any kind of honest job. I sound like an old man, but I've honestly never met a so-called "Anarchist" who didn't fit this exact description, lol. If there are any out there, hit me up so I can be surprised.

I'm all for positive action, but I don't see what is so positive about any AntiFa group whatsoever. They literally don't do anything worth doing, they mess things up more often than not, most of the time they act worse than the people they're opposing.

I've seen the mess that these kids have caused in my own city-center after they've scuttled back to their mummy and daddy's house and took off their bandanna to eat spag-bol with their families. As much as I want nothing to do with the EDL, they at least don't mess my city up during their nonsense marches, they just chant, march and sod off. The AntiFa, meanwhile, leave a pile of crap behind, ironically not caring for their own community whatsoever, or the people who have to pay for the damage and pick up the rubbish.
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Old 31st May 2017, 10:16 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
And the antics of these anti-fascits are only helping them.
uke2se said earlier that "beating up Nazi's isn't pointless," and that to me just shows how utterly nonsensical and childish these AntiFa kids are. Not only are they as cowardly as their opponents, but they're utterly devoid of any kind of sense of irony.

It's a constant back and forth retaliation between two groups of absolute morons who do nothing but cause trouble for decent people.

What's even funnier, is that I bet not one of these people do anything for charity at all.
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Old 31st May 2017, 10:25 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
If 'cash 4 clothes' paid out for drivel, you could give up work tomorrow. Show us any evidence you've got for that ***** you spouted and we can discuss. Otherwise, stick to the violence you know and love that comes free with your job and free of any recourse to bullies such as you and your cohort enjoy.
Says the oddball who once made silly jokes about Hillsborough and Heysel and then backed away when I told you about all the trouble I'd seen in Wales during my time working at the rugby. You clearly have some strange issue with Liverpool that I don't care about, lol.

Show you evidence for what I said? Can you show me any evidence that the AntiFa are anything other than what I stated them to be? Seems most level-headed people in this thread agree.

Apparently nobody in this thread can show me any evidence of the AntiFa being anything other than silly kids with dreadlocks and Sex Pistols shirts lobbing stones at drunken bald fellas in England shirts.

Who the hell is my cohort, btw? Who have I bullied? You're a strange, little man, Dean. Have a Kleenex for your tears.
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Old 31st May 2017, 10:28 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Triggered!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
LOL
Don't mind poor old Dean, he's some random bloke who I don't know from Adam but has an odd negative fixation about me and an odd hatred for Liverpool. Talk about fascism, eh?! Oddly, he seems to go away when you remind him of how violent his own country can be when it comes to sporting events.
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Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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Old 1st June 2017, 03:07 AM   #238
baron
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I agree. And having actually known and met many people associated with such groups, I can say that most of them are posers, pretend Punk-rock fans who wear DK "Nazi Punks **** Off" shirts without realizing what that song was even about or what the hell Jello Biafra was talking about, most of them are conspiracy nuts who still drone on about 9/11 being an "inside job," rattling on about chem-trails and smoking rollies while avoiding any kind of honest job. I sound like an old man, but I've honestly never met a so-called "Anarchist" who didn't fit this exact description, lol. If there are any out there, hit me up so I can be surprised.

I'm all for positive action, but I don't see what is so positive about any AntiFa group whatsoever. They literally don't do anything worth doing, they mess things up more often than not, most of the time they act worse than the people they're opposing.

I've seen the mess that these kids have caused in my own city-center after they've scuttled back to their mummy and daddy's house and took off their bandanna to eat spag-bol with their families. As much as I want nothing to do with the EDL, they at least don't mess my city up during their nonsense marches, they just chant, march and sod off. The AntiFa, meanwhile, leave a pile of crap behind, ironically not caring for their own community whatsoever, or the people who have to pay for the damage and pick up the rubbish.
In my younger days I used to meet a great many such people (I still have some photos - funny as hell). Most of my friends at that point were leftists (at least those who expressed a political preference) and a fair number of their peripheral associates were the far left, the anarchists. I never engaged with them about politics as it didn't interest me at the time, but the one thing that struck me about every one of them was their sense of entitlement. Everything had to be free (i.e. paid for by someone else) and the although the 'system' was corrupt they depended on it in order to survive. I was never clear whether they really believed that if everybody just sat around smoking weed and leeching off other people the world would be a better place, or they were simply so stoned they had no idea what they were talking about, but that was their attitude. It was selfishness taken to a new level.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 12:02 AM   #239
CaptainHowdy
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I just wanted to quote this for emphasis. According to the (alt) right, the Portland murderer was just defending himself?

Jebus Christmas, what the hell is happening to you Americans?
I don't know what the alt.right thinks but I look at the information that has been reported about the incident and the information that has not been reported to figure out what happened. What we know is that a crazy man gets on a train. Starts saying mean things to two teenage girls who "look" Muslim. Three men intervene. Crazy man stabs men, two of them die. Crazy man exits the train and is last seen walking towards a hospital. Police locate crazy man at hospital where he is treated for injuries and arrested.

If the crazy man had lashed out at these three men without provocation, he wouldn't have been injured. Since he was, obviously, the three men attacked the crazy man first. If three men are physically attacking you, you have the right to defend yourself.

The fact that the crazy man was saying mean things to teenage girls before the three men tried to stop him isn't relevant. It's not against the law to express your displeasure at Muslims. In fact, if the government isn't going to do anything to stop the hordes of third world Muslims from moving into our neighborhoods, we as private citizens should do whatever we can to make them feel unwelcome.

If the crazy man physically attacked the teenage girls, that would be one thing. But the media isn't reporting that the girls were physically attacked.

What happened here is three men attacked a crazy man and he defended himself. The two men who died aren't heroes and the crazy man isn't a murderer.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 12:20 AM   #240
marplots
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I don't know what the alt.right thinks but I look at the information that has been reported about the incident and the information that has not been reported to figure out what happened. What we know is that a crazy man gets on a train. Starts saying mean things to two teenage girls who "look" Muslim. Three men intervene. Crazy man stabs men, two of them die. Crazy man exits the train and is last seen walking towards a hospital. Police locate crazy man at hospital where he is treated for injuries and arrested.

If the crazy man had lashed out at these three men without provocation, he wouldn't have been injured. Since he was, obviously, the three men attacked the crazy man first. If three men are physically attacking you, you have the right to defend yourself.

The fact that the crazy man was saying mean things to teenage girls before the three men tried to stop him isn't relevant. It's not against the law to express your displeasure at Muslims. In fact, if the government isn't going to do anything to stop the hordes of third world Muslims from moving into our neighborhoods, we as private citizens should do whatever we can to make them feel unwelcome.

If the crazy man physically attacked the teenage girls, that would be one thing. But the media isn't reporting that the girls were physically attacked.

What happened here is three men attacked a crazy man and he defended himself. The two men who died aren't heroes and the crazy man isn't a murderer.
This is the step in the analysis I question.
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