American Civil War II: Is It Coming? - Page 3

Horatius · 1st September 2020, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I have no idea at all how such a civil war would be done today, or even if something could be done today that would justify using the term at all.

What manner do you think it would be done in, today?

The next US Civil War, if it happens, won't start with state or federal level troops fighting. That might happen later in the war, but it won't be the start.

What will start it is local communities, in which one portion of the population turns on another, akin to ethnic cleansing we've seen in places like Serbia and Rwanda. Picture a community Of Faction X mixed with Faction Y. It really doesn't matter how you assign the X and Y, by the way. At some point, Faction X will start to believe that all the problems could be solved if they could just get Faction Y to move along. So, they attack the Faction Y members of the community, killing some, and forcing others to move. Maybe not all of Faction Y, but just enough to "teach them a lesson", "put them on notice" or some such verbiage.

This will be widely condemned, but after the fact condemnation won't bring back the dead, or replace the burned out houses.

Then, there will be other communities, where Faction Y starts thinking..."Hey, look at what happened in that other town. I bet you Faction X is planning the same thing, right here in our Town. We'd better do it to them before they do it to us!!!"

Wash, rinse and repeat, in small towns all over the US. The more it happens, the faster the rate increases - we get into a spiral of violence and counter-violence that feeds on itself.

We're already seeing the beginnings of this, by the way. How many small towns heard rumors of "Antifa is coming!" and turned out with guns to repel them? Sure, this time it turned out to just be a bunch of rednecks swearing at their local hippies and leftists, but it won't always work out so well. When you have idiots with guns running around, eventually someone will get shot, which we've seen at least twice now in the last week or so. It won't take much for this to escalate.

Local police might try to contain it at first, but they'll quickly get overwhelmed (those who aren't part of the mob themselves, of course). National Guard and Federal military will probably be called in at some point, when the local violence gets big enough, and then we run into the classic question - will the US military fire on US civilians? Will the military tend to support Faction X over Faction Y? Then they might only stop some violence, not all. Then Faction Y will essentially be in full rebellion, since they know no one will defend them.

At some point, the legitimacy of the federal government will start to suffer. Some states might see secession as the only way to get out of the mess. Others might just be acting cynically for their own benefit. Some state governments might also lose legitimacy, and fall into anarchy. Regional strongmen might arise, and see an opportunity to loot the weaker states while federal troops are involved somewhere else.

Civil War The First will look positively well-organized in comparison to the coming **** show.

angrysoba · 1st September 2020, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

This is the part that interests me the most. I think I have a good idea of how the first civil war was done: Several state governments decided they didn't like the direction federal policy was going. They felt they had more in common with each other than with the other states, so they declared independence, formed their own Union, established their own government, and went about setting up collective security and trying to start their international trade and diplomacy game. But the feds wouldn't let them take over federal facilities within their borders, or even recognize them as an independent polity. Then the shooting started, and since the states effectively had their own armies, and the two sides were more or less evenly matched, it promptly escalated into a full-blown war of secession.

I have no idea at all how such a civil war would be done today, or even if something could be done today that would justify using the term at all.

What manner do you think it would be done in, today?

Originally Posted by Brainster

I feel quite certain that the liberals around here are not proposing secession; after all, that would be treason.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but...

a) none of the liberals are proposing secession.
b) proposing secession is not, in itself, treason (as defined by the United States constitution).
c) theprestige leaves out from the "Then the shooting started" explanation of the beginning of the American Civil War, that it was initiated by southern militia when they attacked Fort Sumter, and thus was an absolute clear-cut example of treason under the United States Constitution. Thus it was not secession so much as "levying war against [the United States]" that was treason.

CapelDodger · 1st September 2020, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but...

a) none of the liberals are proposing secession.

Some liberals are pointing to States' Rights in the face of the White House's recent behaviour, and that's like secession, isn't it?

Quote:

b) proposing secession is not, in itself, treason (as defined by the United States constitution).

It would have been a deal-breaker.

Quote:

c) theprestige leaves out from the "Then the shooting started" explanation of the beginning of the American Civil War, that it was initiated by southern militia when they attacked Fort Sumter, and thus was an absolute clear-cut example of treason under the United States Constitution. Thus it was not secession so much as "levying war against [the United States]" that was treason.

Quite. Treason was a touchy subject at the time, since it had so often been a tool of tyranny, but the "levying war" thing was a no-brainer.

varwoche · 1st September 2020, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Horatius

The next US Civil War, if it happens, won't start with state or federal level troops fighting. That might happen later in the war, but it won't be the start.

What will start it is local communities, in which one portion of the population turns on another, akin to ethnic cleansing we've seen in places like Serbia and Rwanda....

I see it starting differently. And only if Trump wins.

Trump's brazen voter suppression campaign guarantees the other side won't trust the result
Trump declared winner.
Instant, massive protests making May-June seem like tiddlywinks.
Unfettered Trump responds like the thug he is -- gas on the fire.
Things unwind from there in unpredictable ways.

Call it civil war. Call it domestic strife on a level that hasn't been seen since the civil war. Whatever.

rockysmith76 · 2nd September 2020, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by varwoche

I see it starting differently. And only if Trump wins.

Trump's brazen voter suppression campaign guarantees the other side won't trust the result
Trump declared winner.
Instant, massive protests making May-June seem like tiddlywinks.
Unfettered Trump responds like the thug he is -- gas on the fire.
Things unwind from there in unpredictable ways.

Call it civil war. Call it domestic strife on a level that hasn't been seen since the civil war. Whatever.

Pushing for rioting after openly endorsing Chinese interference in our system? Really?

Mader Levap · 2nd September 2020, 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

Pushing for rioting after openly endorsing Chinese interference in our system? Really?

He is predicting what will happen if your Fuhrer wins second term. Predicting is not same thing as "I want it to happen".

That should be Captain Obvious moment, but for some people apparently it is not obvious.

There is, of course, alternative and way, way less nice interpretation: projection. In other words, wannabe traitor (in this case, supporter of wannabe authoritarian protofascist party) accusing others of being treasonous.

ponderingturtle · 2nd September 2020, 05:20 AM

I see violence no matter who wins. Trumps blatant voter turnout suppression and calls about fraud mean no matter who wins the other side will not view the results as legitimate, and if Trump loses he is sure to blame illegals voting just like last time and why he lost the popular vote.

No matter what happens I expect a rising tide of politicaly motivated violence and a real body count from the far right.

varwoche · 2nd September 2020, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

Pushing for rioting after openly endorsing Chinese interference in our system? Really?

I am unambiguously opposed to wanton destructiveness. In our potential dystopian future, as well as the dystopian present, I wish people would not do that. It's counter productive. There are other ways to cripple "the system" if there is sufficient depth and breadth of opposition.

Re the China part ... guffaw!

Hlafordlaes · 2nd September 2020, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

... Political violence is going to be on the rise for quite some time, regardless of if you call it a civil war or not.

Agreed.

uke2se · 3rd September 2020, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

He is predicting what will happen if your Fuhrer wins second term. Predicting is not same thing as "I want it to happen".

That should be Captain Obvious moment, but for some people apparently it is not obvious.

There is, of course, alternative and way, way less nice interpretation: projection. In other words, wannabe traitor (in this case, supporter of wannabe authoritarian protofascist party) accusing others of being treasonous.

Rocky is trolling and trying to bring in arguments from another thread into this one because he desperately needs to think he's owned a lib. Pay him no heed.

theprestige · 3rd September 2020, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by uke2se

Rocky is trolling and trying to bring in arguments from another thread into this one because he desperately needs to think he's owned a lib. Pay him no heed.

LOL. If there were anything useful or interesting left to say about the topic, you'd be saying it, instead of posting about other members. Why should ML take your advice, when you won't even follow it?

rockysmith76 · 3rd September 2020, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by varwoche

I am unambiguously opposed to wanton destructiveness. In our potential dystopian future, as well as the dystopian present, I wish people would not do that. It's counter productive. There are other ways to cripple "the system" if there is sufficient depth and breadth of opposition.

Re the China part ... guffaw!

Pushing for a China dominated Dystopia, what kind of monster would you be here?

rockysmith76 · 3rd September 2020, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by uke2se

Rocky is trolling and trying to bring in arguments from another thread into this one because he desperately needs to think he's owned a lib. Pay him no heed.

Nope, just piling on the truth in this otherwise pointless conversation of leftie lamentation. So pay heed, dammit.

rockysmith76 · 3rd September 2020, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

He is predicting what will happen if your Fuhrer wins second term. Predicting is not same thing as "I want it to happen".

That should be Captain Obvious moment, but for some people apparently it is not obvious.

There is, of course, alternative and way, way less nice interpretation: projection. In other words, wannabe traitor (in this case, supporter of wannabe authoritarian protofascist party) accusing others of being treasonous.

You know nothing of what I support. The lamenting over a lack of chinese interference in this thread is plainly shown by some.

lomiller · 3rd September 2020, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

Pushing for rioting

Rioters demanding fair representation in the democratic process created the US.

When governments don’t respect peoples rights and freedoms riots and revolution are a natural recourse. The tyrants and their supporters invariably answer with violence in the name of “law and order”.

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

after openly endorsing Chinese interference in our system? Really?

You are the one demanding the US adopt the Chinese system of oppressing people for demanding their rights and freedoms.

rockysmith76 · 3rd September 2020, 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Rioters demanding fair representation in the democratic process created the US.

Wrong it was a bunch of whiners dumping tea over tea tax. Hardly tyranny.

Quote:

When governments don’t respect peoples rights and freedoms riots and revolution are a natural recourse. The tyrants and their supporters invariably answer with violence in the name of “law and order”.

You are the one demanding the US adopt the Chinese system of oppressing people for demanding their rights and freedoms.

Hardly, another person openly stated they wanted Chinese influence showing their love of big, invasive social credit score inducing gubment. I demanded no such thing and maybe reading comprehension would help you out there, unless you love Poo Bear so much to.

RedStapler · 3rd September 2020, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

Wrong it was a bunch of whiners dumping tea over tea tax. Hardly tyranny.

Hardly, another person openly stated they wanted Chinese influence showing their love of big, invasive social credit score inducing gubment. I demanded no such thing and maybe reading comprehension would help you out there, unless you love Poo Bear so much to.

Looks like at least one person on earth is deeply affected by the "red scare" from decades ago.

ETA: Someone send a congratulatory message to McCarthy in hell.

rockysmith76 · 3rd September 2020, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by RedStapler

Looks like at least one person on earth is deeply affected by the "red scare" from decades ago.

As opposed to the SJW loving traitors who long for it.

RedStapler · 3rd September 2020, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

As opposed to the SJW loving traitors who long for it.

Ah, "YOU DIRTY SJW", the last line of defense for racists, xenophobes and other scum.

rockysmith76 · 3rd September 2020, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by RedStapler

Ah, "YOU DIRTY SJW", the last line of defense for racists, xenophobes and other scum.

as opposed to Anarchists, and Cancel Culture loving Social Bullies who can only use racist as a slur because it's all they have. As opposed to the clarity that both sides are equally wrong and suck.

The Great Zaganza · 3rd September 2020, 06:51 AM

Indeed.
Before you can call the riots illegitimate, you have to consider what other options the rioters have to get heard.
After all, the American Revolution started with a riot - I assume that one was illegitimate, too, and shouldn't have happened?

JoeMorgue · 3rd September 2020, 06:53 AM

Jesus people it's not rioting when white people do it. That's just science.

LOL triggered Lib SJW cuckholds.

The Great Zaganza · 3rd September 2020, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

as opposed to Anarchists, and Cancel Culture loving Social Bullies who can only use racist as a slur because it's all they have. As opposed to the clarity that both sides are equally wrong and suck.

Trump is the biggest bully and proponent of Cancel Culture, as has the Koch-brother movement and the Evangelicals.
But because it was the Right doing it it was okay.
The Left is only now getting to the party.

Meadmaker · 3rd September 2020, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Which side would the police and military be on?

I'm not sure the Troubles would be a good model, though. Northern Ireland was a case of a central government imposing a union on a local populace against their will.

What imposition by what governments would prompt the kind of separatist violence here, that happened there?

Who would be resisting? What side would the police and military presence be representing?

I mean, right now, in places like Portland, Chicago, Seattle, the violence is primarily coming from the left, calling for "secession" from their local police presence. How does that translate to the Troubles Model?

The political situations aren't analogous. I was just talking about the level of violence. I don't think we will get to a civil war, which would mean rival governments leading bands of troops, seizing control of territories, and plotting military strategy, but I'm wondering if we will get to a state where politically motivated violence and terrorism are commonplace, but short of an all out civil war.

JoeMorgue · 3rd September 2020, 07:12 AM

Yeah a state of "LOL it's not technically a Civil War it's only sparkling civil constant ideological civil unrest and violence you triggered dramatic libs" sounds like exactly the kind of place a lot of people would just be tickled pink to find us at.

shemp · 3rd September 2020, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Indeed.
Before you can call the riots illegitimate, you have to consider what other options the rioters have to get heard.
After all, the American Revolution started with a riot - I assume that one was illegitimate, too, and shouldn't have happened?

If Trump had been king, he'd have had his soldiers shoot them all dead on the spot.

Frank Newgent · 3rd September 2020, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by shemp

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Indeed.
Before you can call the riots illegitimate, you have to consider what other options the rioters have to get heard.
After all, the American Revolution started with a riot - I assume that one was illegitimate, too, and shouldn't have happened?

If Trump had been king, he'd have had his soldiers shoot them all dead on the spot.

If Shemp had been king, he'd have had bebebebebebebebebebebebe

rockysmith76 · 3rd September 2020, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Trump is the biggest bully and proponent of Cancel Culture, as has the Koch-brother movement and the Evangelicals.
But because it was the Right doing it it was okay.
The Left is only now getting to the party.

Nope BOTH sides are guilty, and thus suck. Orange Man Bad doesnt exist in a vaccuum

The Great Zaganza · 3rd September 2020, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

Nope BOTH sides are guilty, and thus suck. Orange Man Bad doesnt exist in a vaccuum

Even IF (big IF) that was the case, one should always hold those in power to a
higher standard than those in opposition.
you are very welcome to **** on Biden once he is elected, but for now, Trump is the one with tax-payer financed bully pulpit power.
Trump might be "only" just as bad, but he uses your money and wastes his time as President to bully others.

Mike! · 3rd September 2020, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

Nope BOTH sides are guilty, and thus suck. Orange Man Bad doesnt exist in a vaccuum

Has this been tested?
If we place Trump in a vacuum will he cease to exist or just explode?
Enquiring minds want to know.

chrispy · 3rd September 2020, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

Pushing for a China dominated Dystopia, what kind of monster would you be here?

You keep bringing up a joke he made about Trump asking Russia for help- "Russia, are you listening?". He simply replaced it with China...as a joke. This was days ago, but you latched on to it and keep repeating it. You are

a) trolling, and poorly at that

B) being purposely obtuse

c) both a & b

I'll withold my answer so as not to violate the MA.

lomiller · 3rd September 2020, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

Wrong it was a bunch of whiners dumping tea over tea tax. Hardly tyranny.

It wasn’t the tax that had them upset (if fact they were protesting a tax cut) The real issue was that Parliament was making laws that applied to them even though they were not represented in that Parliament.

Denying people the right to have a say in the laws that govern them is a form of Tyranny. For those arguing "the US is promotes democracy", the US regularly makes laws that attempt to control what citizens of other democracies can and cannot do in their own countries.

TragicMonkey · 3rd September 2020, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

It wasn’t the tax that had them upset (if fact they were protesting a tax cut) The real issue was that Parliament was making laws that applied to them even though they were not represented in that Parliament.

Well, that's what they said was the reason. The real reason was the same as the reason for every revolution ever: people who wanted more power thought that was the way to get it. The wealthy elite in North America resented having to share power and wealth with the wealthy elite back in Europe, so they acted to sever the connection. They spouted a lot of flowery rhetoric and philosophy, and possibly even believed they believed it, but ultimately it's all pragmatism at the bottom. Hence "freedom", "equality", and a whole buncha slavery at the same time.

Mader Levap · 3rd September 2020, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

You know nothing of what I support.

History of your posts gives pretty good picture about who you are and what you support.

Originally Posted by rockysmith76

Nope BOTH sides are guilty, and thus suck. Orange Man Bad doesnt exist in a vaccuum

You know that no one believes that you are sincere in your "both sides are bad reee" claim, right?

varwoche · 3rd September 2020, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by Mike!

Has this been tested?
If we place Trump in a vacuum will he cease to exist or just explode?
Enquiring minds want to know.

We know how that would go! Never mind the vacuum. His skin is so thin he's barely able to maintain structural integrity. If he took off the suit and corset, his internal organs would spill onto the carpet.

shemp · 3rd September 2020, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Frank Newgent

If Shemp had been king, he'd have had bebebebebebebebebebebebe

Damn right!

Bubba · 6th September 2020, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Now, correct me if I am wrong, but...

a) none of the liberals are proposing secession.

In one scenario, John Podesta — the former chair of Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign, and a leading figure in party circles — played former Vice President Joe Biden, and refused to concede the election.

The result: the threat of secession by the entire West Coast, followed by the possible intervention of the U.S. armed forces:

Democrats contemplating secession and potential civil war after Biden loses in November (according to NY Times)
Democrats have participated in a “war game” in which they considered several possible outcomes of the election. Not only will Biden not concede, but the West Coast (California, Oregon, Washington) will succeed from the union and the official start of a civil war will begin. This is all the master plan of spirit cooker John Podesta.

https://www.pacificpundit.com/2020/0...g-to-ny-times/

Bob001 · 6th September 2020, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Bubba

In one scenario, John Podesta — the former chair of Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign, and a leading figure in party circles — played former Vice President Joe Biden, and refused to concede the election.

The result: the threat of secession by the entire West Coast, followed by the possible intervention of the U.S. armed forces:
.....

Nobody's advocating secession, as if that would even be possible. The project explored multiple scenarios that illustrate how easily the electoral process could go off the rails. They also considered the possibilities that swing states with Democratic governors and Republican legislatures could send completing slates of electors to Washington, and that Trump could refuse to leave the White House after a narrow loss. The point is that a lot could happen before the election, and even more could happen afterward.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/07/...-wasnt-pretty/

varwoche · 6th September 2020, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Bubba

In one scenario, John Podesta — the former chair of Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign, and a leading figure in party circles — played former Vice President Joe Biden, and refused to concede the election.

The result: the threat of secession by the entire West Coast, followed by the possible intervention of the U.S. armed forces:

Democrats contemplating secession and potential civil war after Biden loses in November (according to NY Times)
Democrats have participated in a “war game” in which they considered several possible outcomes of the election. Not only will Biden not concede, but the West Coast (California, Oregon, Washington) will succeed from the union and the official start of a civil war will begin. This is all the master plan of spirit cooker John Podesta.

https://www.pacificpundit.com/2020/0...g-to-ny-times/

An opinion writer on a right wing website with a sketchy reputation has an opinion about an article in the NYT.

No thanks. If you want readers to consider the NYT article, a good starting point is citing the NYT article. What a concept.

smartcooky · 6th September 2020, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

History of your posts gives pretty good picture about who you are and what you support.

Indeed it does!

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

You know that no one believes that you are sincere in your "both sides are bad reee" claim, right?

I suspect a Trump supporter trying to hide behind a "both sides bad" shtick.... and failing badly!

American Civil War II is coming soon, perhaps even soon after this election.	16	20.25%
American Civil War II is coming sometime in the next few years.	10	12.66%
American Civil War II is coming in the foreseeable future, but not for at least a decade or so..	4	5.06%
American Civil War II is not coming anytime in the foreseeable future.	30	37.97%
American Civil War II is never going to happen.	9	11.39%
American Civil War II is coming soon to Netflix, starring Dwayne Johnson!	13	16.46%
Planet X Civil War XXXVII is coming soon!	9	11.39%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 79. You may not vote on this poll

1st September 2020, 05:45 PM	#81
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,904	Originally Posted by theprestige I have no idea at all how such a civil war would be done today, or even if something could be done today that would justify using the term at all. What manner do you think it would be done in, today? The next US Civil War, if it happens, won't start with state or federal level troops fighting. That might happen later in the war, but it won't be the start. What will start it is local communities, in which one portion of the population turns on another, akin to ethnic cleansing we've seen in places like Serbia and Rwanda. Picture a community Of Faction X mixed with Faction Y. It really doesn't matter how you assign the X and Y, by the way. At some point, Faction X will start to believe that all the problems could be solved if they could just get Faction Y to move along. So, they attack the Faction Y members of the community, killing some, and forcing others to move. Maybe not all of Faction Y, but just enough to "teach them a lesson", "put them on notice" or some such verbiage. This will be widely condemned, but after the fact condemnation won't bring back the dead, or replace the burned out houses. Then, there will be other communities, where Faction Y starts thinking..."Hey, look at what happened in that other town. I bet you Faction X is planning the same thing, right here in our Town. We'd better do it to them before they do it to us!!!" Wash, rinse and repeat, in small towns all over the US. The more it happens, the faster the rate increases - we get into a spiral of violence and counter-violence that feeds on itself. We're already seeing the beginnings of this, by the way. How many small towns heard rumors of "Antifa is coming!" and turned out with guns to repel them? Sure, this time it turned out to just be a bunch of rednecks swearing at their local hippies and leftists, but it won't always work out so well. When you have idiots with guns running around, eventually someone will get shot, which we've seen at least twice now in the last week or so. It won't take much for this to escalate. Local police might try to contain it at first, but they'll quickly get overwhelmed (those who aren't part of the mob themselves, of course). National Guard and Federal military will probably be called in at some point, when the local violence gets big enough, and then we run into the classic question - will the US military fire on US civilians? Will the military tend to support Faction X over Faction Y? Then they might only stop some violence, not all. Then Faction Y will essentially be in full rebellion, since they know no one will defend them. At some point, the legitimacy of the federal government will start to suffer. Some states might see secession as the only way to get out of the mess. Others might just be acting cynically for their own benefit. Some state governments might also lose legitimacy, and fall into anarchy. Regional strongmen might arise, and see an opportunity to loot the weaker states while federal troops are involved somewhere else. Civil War The First will look positively well-organized in comparison to the coming **** show.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

1st September 2020, 06:02 PM	#82
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 28,988	Originally Posted by theprestige This is the part that interests me the most. I think I have a good idea of how the first civil war was done: Several state governments decided they didn't like the direction federal policy was going. They felt they had more in common with each other than with the other states, so they declared independence, formed their own Union, established their own government, and went about setting up collective security and trying to start their international trade and diplomacy game. But the feds wouldn't let them take over federal facilities within their borders, or even recognize them as an independent polity. Then the shooting started, and since the states effectively had their own armies, and the two sides were more or less evenly matched, it promptly escalated into a full-blown war of secession. I have no idea at all how such a civil war would be done today, or even if something could be done today that would justify using the term at all. What manner do you think it would be done in, today? Originally Posted by Brainster I feel quite certain that the liberals around here are not proposing secession; after all, that would be treason. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but... a) none of the liberals are proposing secession. b) proposing secession is not, in itself, treason (as defined by the United States constitution). c) theprestige leaves out from the "Then the shooting started" explanation of the beginning of the American Civil War, that it was initiated by southern militia when they attacked Fort Sumter, and thus was an absolute clear-cut example of treason under the United States Constitution. Thus it was not secession so much as "levying war against [the United States]" that was treason.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

1st September 2020, 06:22 PM	#83
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 24,945	Originally Posted by angrysoba Now, correct me if I am wrong, but... a) none of the liberals are proposing secession. Some liberals are pointing to States' Rights in the face of the White House's recent behaviour, and that's like secession, isn't it? Quote: b) proposing secession is not, in itself, treason (as defined by the United States constitution). It would have been a deal-breaker. Quote: c) theprestige leaves out from the "Then the shooting started" explanation of the beginning of the American Civil War, that it was initiated by southern militia when they attacked Fort Sumter, and thus was an absolute clear-cut example of treason under the United States Constitution. Thus it was not secession so much as "levying war against [the United States]" that was treason. Quite. Treason was a touchy subject at the time, since it had so often been a tool of tyranny, but the "levying war" thing was a no-brainer.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

1st September 2020, 06:34 PM	#84
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,371	Originally Posted by Horatius The next US Civil War, if it happens, won't start with state or federal level troops fighting. That might happen later in the war, but it won't be the start. What will start it is local communities, in which one portion of the population turns on another, akin to ethnic cleansing we've seen in places like Serbia and Rwanda.... I see it starting differently. And only if Trump wins. Trump's brazen voter suppression campaign guarantees the other side won't trust the result Trump declared winner. Instant, massive protests making May-June seem like tiddlywinks. Unfettered Trump responds like the thug he is -- gas on the fire. Things unwind from there in unpredictable ways. Call it civil war. Call it domestic strife on a level that hasn't been seen since the civil war. Whatever.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot. My authority is total - Trump

2nd September 2020, 04:09 AM	#85
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990	Originally Posted by varwoche I see it starting differently. And only if Trump wins. Trump's brazen voter suppression campaign guarantees the other side won't trust the result Trump declared winner. Instant, massive protests making May-June seem like tiddlywinks. Unfettered Trump responds like the thug he is -- gas on the fire. Things unwind from there in unpredictable ways. Call it civil war. Call it domestic strife on a level that hasn't been seen since the civil war. Whatever. Pushing for rioting after openly endorsing Chinese interference in our system? Really?
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990

2nd September 2020, 05:16 AM	#86
Mader Levap Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,542	Originally Posted by rockysmith76 Pushing for rioting after openly endorsing Chinese interference in our system? Really? He is predicting what will happen if your Fuhrer wins second term. Predicting is not same thing as "I want it to happen". That should be Captain Obvious moment, but for some people apparently it is not obvious. There is, of course, alternative and way, way less nice interpretation: projection. In other words, wannabe traitor (in this case, supporter of wannabe authoritarian protofascist party) accusing others of being treasonous.
	__________________ Sanity is overrated. / Voting for Republicans is morally equivalent to voting for Nazis in early 30's. Last edited by Mader Levap; 2nd September 2020 at 06:08 AM.

2nd September 2020, 05:20 AM	#87
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,155	I see violence no matter who wins. Trumps blatant voter turnout suppression and calls about fraud mean no matter who wins the other side will not view the results as legitimate, and if Trump loses he is sure to blame illegals voting just like last time and why he lost the popular vote. No matter what happens I expect a rising tide of politicaly motivated violence and a real body count from the far right.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

2nd September 2020, 06:12 AM	#88
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,371	Originally Posted by rockysmith76 Pushing for rioting after openly endorsing Chinese interference in our system? Really? I am unambiguously opposed to wanton destructiveness. In our potential dystopian future, as well as the dystopian present, I wish people would not do that. It's counter productive. There are other ways to cripple "the system" if there is sufficient depth and breadth of opposition. Re the China part ... guffaw!
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot. My authority is total - Trump

2nd September 2020, 06:30 AM	#89
Hlafordlaes Disorder of Kilopi Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: State of Flux Posts: 14,321	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle ... Political violence is going to be on the rise for quite some time, regardless of if you call it a civil war or not. Agreed.
	__________________ Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion. His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp

3rd September 2020, 05:51 AM	#90
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 14,174	Originally Posted by Mader Levap He is predicting what will happen if your Fuhrer wins second term. Predicting is not same thing as "I want it to happen". That should be Captain Obvious moment, but for some people apparently it is not obvious. There is, of course, alternative and way, way less nice interpretation: projection. In other words, wannabe traitor (in this case, supporter of wannabe authoritarian protofascist party) accusing others of being treasonous. Rocky is trolling and trying to bring in arguments from another thread into this one because he desperately needs to think he's owned a lib. Pay him no heed.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

3rd September 2020, 05:59 AM	#91
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 48,576	Originally Posted by uke2se Rocky is trolling and trying to bring in arguments from another thread into this one because he desperately needs to think he's owned a lib. Pay him no heed. LOL. If there were anything useful or interesting left to say about the topic, you'd be saying it, instead of posting about other members. Why should ML take your advice, when you won't even follow it?

3rd September 2020, 06:10 AM	#92
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990	Originally Posted by varwoche I am unambiguously opposed to wanton destructiveness. In our potential dystopian future, as well as the dystopian present, I wish people would not do that. It's counter productive. There are other ways to cripple "the system" if there is sufficient depth and breadth of opposition. Re the China part ... guffaw! Pushing for a China dominated Dystopia, what kind of monster would you be here?
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990

3rd September 2020, 06:12 AM	#93
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990	Originally Posted by uke2se Rocky is trolling and trying to bring in arguments from another thread into this one because he desperately needs to think he's owned a lib. Pay him no heed. Nope, just piling on the truth in this otherwise pointless conversation of leftie lamentation. So pay heed, dammit.
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990

3rd September 2020, 06:13 AM	#94
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990	Originally Posted by Mader Levap He is predicting what will happen if your Fuhrer wins second term. Predicting is not same thing as "I want it to happen". That should be Captain Obvious moment, but for some people apparently it is not obvious. There is, of course, alternative and way, way less nice interpretation: projection. In other words, wannabe traitor (in this case, supporter of wannabe authoritarian protofascist party) accusing others of being treasonous. You know nothing of what I support. The lamenting over a lack of chinese interference in this thread is plainly shown by some.
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990

3rd September 2020, 06:20 AM	#95
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,170	Originally Posted by rockysmith76 Pushing for rioting Rioters demanding fair representation in the democratic process created the US. When governments don’t respect peoples rights and freedoms riots and revolution are a natural recourse. The tyrants and their supporters invariably answer with violence in the name of “law and order”. Originally Posted by rockysmith76 after openly endorsing Chinese interference in our system? Really? You are the one demanding the US adopt the Chinese system of oppressing people for demanding their rights and freedoms.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

3rd September 2020, 06:23 AM	#96
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990	Originally Posted by lomiller Rioters demanding fair representation in the democratic process created the US. Wrong it was a bunch of whiners dumping tea over tea tax. Hardly tyranny. Quote: When governments don’t respect peoples rights and freedoms riots and revolution are a natural recourse. The tyrants and their supporters invariably answer with violence in the name of “law and order”. You are the one demanding the US adopt the Chinese system of oppressing people for demanding their rights and freedoms. Hardly, another person openly stated they wanted Chinese influence showing their love of big, invasive social credit score inducing gubment. I demanded no such thing and maybe reading comprehension would help you out there, unless you love Poo Bear so much to.
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990

3rd September 2020, 06:26 AM	#97
RedStapler Guest Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 839	Originally Posted by rockysmith76 Wrong it was a bunch of whiners dumping tea over tea tax. Hardly tyranny. Hardly, another person openly stated they wanted Chinese influence showing their love of big, invasive social credit score inducing gubment. I demanded no such thing and maybe reading comprehension would help you out there, unless you love Poo Bear so much to. Looks like at least one person on earth is deeply affected by the "red scare" from decades ago. ETA: Someone send a congratulatory message to McCarthy in hell.
RedStapler Guest Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 839	Last edited by RedStapler; 3rd September 2020 at 06:28 AM.

3rd September 2020, 06:36 AM	#98
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990	Originally Posted by RedStapler Looks like at least one person on earth is deeply affected by the "red scare" from decades ago. As opposed to the SJW loving traitors who long for it.
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990

3rd September 2020, 06:38 AM	#99
RedStapler Guest Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 839	Originally Posted by rockysmith76 As opposed to the SJW loving traitors who long for it. Ah, "YOU DIRTY SJW", the last line of defense for racists, xenophobes and other scum.
RedStapler Guest Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 839

3rd September 2020, 06:44 AM	#100
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990	Originally Posted by RedStapler Ah, "YOU DIRTY SJW", the last line of defense for racists, xenophobes and other scum. as opposed to Anarchists, and Cancel Culture loving Social Bullies who can only use racist as a slur because it's all they have. As opposed to the clarity that both sides are equally wrong and suck.
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990

3rd September 2020, 06:51 AM	#101
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,374	Indeed. Before you can call the riots illegitimate, you have to consider what other options the rioters have to get heard. After all, the American Revolution started with a riot - I assume that one was illegitimate, too, and shouldn't have happened?
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.

3rd September 2020, 06:53 AM	#102
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,893	Jesus people it's not rioting when white people do it. That's just science. LOL triggered Lib SJW cuckholds.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

3rd September 2020, 06:56 AM	#103
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,374	Originally Posted by rockysmith76 as opposed to Anarchists, and Cancel Culture loving Social Bullies who can only use racist as a slur because it's all they have. As opposed to the clarity that both sides are equally wrong and suck. Trump is the biggest bully and proponent of Cancel Culture, as has the Koch-brother movement and the Evangelicals. But because it was the Right doing it it was okay. The Left is only now getting to the party.
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.

3rd September 2020, 07:07 AM	#104
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 24,778	Originally Posted by theprestige Which side would the police and military be on? I'm not sure the Troubles would be a good model, though. Northern Ireland was a case of a central government imposing a union on a local populace against their will. What imposition by what governments would prompt the kind of separatist violence here, that happened there? Who would be resisting? What side would the police and military presence be representing? I mean, right now, in places like Portland, Chicago, Seattle, the violence is primarily coming from the left, calling for "secession" from their local police presence. How does that translate to the Troubles Model? The political situations aren't analogous. I was just talking about the level of violence. I don't think we will get to a civil war, which would mean rival governments leading bands of troops, seizing control of territories, and plotting military strategy, but I'm wondering if we will get to a state where politically motivated violence and terrorism are commonplace, but short of an all out civil war.

3rd September 2020, 07:12 AM	#105
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,893	Yeah a state of "LOL it's not technically a Civil War it's only sparkling civil constant ideological civil unrest and violence you triggered dramatic libs" sounds like exactly the kind of place a lot of people would just be tickled pink to find us at.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

3rd September 2020, 07:14 AM	#106
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X Posts: 39,583	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza Indeed. Before you can call the riots illegitimate, you have to consider what other options the rioters have to get heard. After all, the American Revolution started with a riot - I assume that one was illegitimate, too, and shouldn't have happened? If Trump had been king, he'd have had his soldiers shoot them all dead on the spot.
	__________________ If being a twat was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set. "...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, ~~Trump~~ shemp attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will "[shemp is] a most notable coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality." - Shakespeare

3rd September 2020, 07:45 AM	#107
Frank Newgent Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 6,789	Originally Posted by shemp Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza Indeed. Before you can call the riots illegitimate, you have to consider what other options the rioters have to get heard. After all, the American Revolution started with a riot - I assume that one was illegitimate, too, and shouldn't have happened? If Trump had been king, he'd have had his soldiers shoot them all dead on the spot. If Shemp had been king, he'd have had bebebebebebebebebebebebe
	__________________ Disturbances of the semantic reactions in connection with faulty education and ignorance must be considered as sub-microscopic colloidal lesions - Alfred O. Korzybski

3rd September 2020, 08:14 AM	#108
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza Trump is the biggest bully and proponent of Cancel Culture, as has the Koch-brother movement and the Evangelicals. But because it was the Right doing it it was okay. The Left is only now getting to the party. Nope BOTH sides are guilty, and thus suck. Orange Man Bad doesnt exist in a vaccuum
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990

3rd September 2020, 08:28 AM	#109
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,374	Originally Posted by rockysmith76 Nope BOTH sides are guilty, and thus suck. Orange Man Bad doesnt exist in a vaccuum Even IF (big IF) that was the case, one should always hold those in power to a higher standard than those in opposition. you are very welcome to **** on Biden once he is elected, but for now, Trump is the one with tax-payer financed bully pulpit power. Trump might be "only" just as bad, but he uses your money and wastes his time as President to bully others.
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo fox et amicis esse delendam.

3rd September 2020, 08:32 AM	#110
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 39,665	Originally Posted by rockysmith76 Nope BOTH sides are guilty, and thus suck. Orange Man Bad doesnt exist in a vaccuum Has this been tested? If we place Trump in a vacuum will he cease to exist or just explode? Enquiring minds want to know.
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

3rd September 2020, 08:46 AM	#111
chrispy Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Solola, Guatemala Posts: 1,044	Originally Posted by rockysmith76 Pushing for a China dominated Dystopia, what kind of monster would you be here? You keep bringing up a joke he made about Trump asking Russia for help- "Russia, are you listening?". He simply replaced it with China...as a joke. This was days ago, but you latched on to it and keep repeating it. You are a) trolling, and poorly at that B) being purposely obtuse c) both a & b I'll withold my answer so as not to violate the MA.
	__________________ Just a spec in the Spectrum...

3rd September 2020, 08:49 AM	#112
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,170	Originally Posted by rockysmith76 Wrong it was a bunch of whiners dumping tea over tea tax. Hardly tyranny. It wasn’t the tax that had them upset (if fact they were protesting a tax cut) The real issue was that Parliament was making laws that applied to them even though they were not represented in that Parliament. Denying people the right to have a say in the laws that govern them is a form of Tyranny. For those arguing "the US is promotes democracy", the US regularly makes laws that attempt to control what citizens of other democracies can and cannot do in their own countries.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

3rd September 2020, 08:59 AM	#113
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 58,920	Originally Posted by lomiller It wasn’t the tax that had them upset (if fact they were protesting a tax cut) The real issue was that Parliament was making laws that applied to them even though they were not represented in that Parliament. Well, that's what they said was the reason. The real reason was the same as the reason for every revolution ever: people who wanted more power thought that was the way to get it. The wealthy elite in North America resented having to share power and wealth with the wealthy elite back in Europe, so they acted to sever the connection. They spouted a lot of flowery rhetoric and philosophy, and possibly even believed they believed it, but ultimately it's all pragmatism at the bottom. Hence "freedom", "equality", and a whole buncha slavery at the same time.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

3rd September 2020, 09:16 AM	#114
Mader Levap Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,542	Originally Posted by rockysmith76 You know nothing of what I support. History of your posts gives pretty good picture about who you are and what you support. Originally Posted by rockysmith76 Nope BOTH sides are guilty, and thus suck. Orange Man Bad doesnt exist in a vaccuum You know that no one believes that you are sincere in your "both sides are bad reee" claim, right?
	__________________ Sanity is overrated. / Voting for Republicans is morally equivalent to voting for Nazis in early 30's.