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Old 7th January 2021, 04:32 PM   #361
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Quote:
If he can't be impeached he can't be removed from office via the 25th amendment. Same vote required (ETA: or slightly higher even, need to check).
Yep. Bar is higher for Section 4 of the 25th amendment. 2/3 majority in both houses.
Which might not matter.

Another poster has pointed out... Invoking the 25th amendment might get Trump out of office immediately. Trump might have the votes in congress to block confirmation of the 25th, but it would take time to work its way though the system (and, it could be delayed along the way). Biden might be sworn in before the issue would actually come up for a vote.
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Old 7th January 2021, 04:35 PM   #362
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i think the primary concern now should be doing something to take away his pardon powers

although i would like to see a self pardon challenged in court, just to remove it as an option forever
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Old 7th January 2021, 04:53 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Which might not matter.

Another poster has pointed out... Invoking the 25th amendment might get Trump out of office immediately. Trump might have the votes in congress to block confirmation of the 25th, but it would take time to work its way though the system (and, it could be delayed along the way). Biden might be sworn in before the issue would actually come up for a vote.
Yes, I think you and the other poster are correct, assuming Pence and company write the second letter called for under section 4.

ETA: But wait, this seems pointless. Why will there be delays if the Senate doesn't want to support removal? The Senate could just act quickly to revoke it.

Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 7th January 2021 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:34 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Which might not matter.

Another poster has pointed out... Invoking the 25th amendment might get Trump out of office immediately. Trump might have the votes in congress to block confirmation of the 25th, but it would take time to work its way though the system (and, it could be delayed along the way). Biden might be sworn in before the issue would actually come up for a vote.
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Yes, I think you and the other poster are correct, assuming Pence and company write the second letter called for under section 4.

ETA: But wait, this seems pointless. Why will there be delays if the Senate doesn't want to support removal? The Senate could just act quickly to revoke it.
The vice president and the cabinet are not required to write the second letter immediately. They have 4 days to respond before Congress can vote to "decide the matter." So that's 4 days to keep Trump out of office and help keep America a little safer.

Link to the 25th Amendment

Last edited by Kaylee; 7th January 2021 at 07:45 PM. Reason: To correct link description - the link is to the 25th amendment, not section 4 of the amendment.
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:41 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
The vice president and the cabinet are not required to write the second letter immediately. They have 4 days to respond before Congress can vote to "decide the matter." So that's 4 days to keep Trump out of office and help keep America a little safer.

Link to section 4 of the 25th Amendment
The way I read that Trump would be president again until they write the second letter. (ETA: But I'm not sure of this and, in fact, changed my mind earlier today on this. I read it this way but see it explained the same way you are taking it. Not sure at the moment).

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Old 7th January 2021, 07:44 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Yes, I think you and the other poster are correct, assuming Pence and company write the second letter called for under section 4.

ETA: But wait, this seems pointless. Why will there be delays if the Senate doesn't want to support removal? The Senate could just act quickly to revoke it.
I think the idea is that if the republican caucus is split, where there are not enough "anti-Trump" congress-critters to keep Trump out of office. In that scenario, delaying the vote (thanks to the work of Moscow Mitch, or Pelosi) would be the way to keep the 25th amendment in place.
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:52 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Yes, I think you and the other poster are correct, assuming Pence and company write the second letter called for under section 4.

ETA: But wait, this seems pointless. Why will there be delays if the Senate doesn't want to support removal? The Senate could just act quickly to revoke it.
Ever hear of the filibuster?
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Old 7th January 2021, 07:53 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Quote:
The vice president and the cabinet are not required to write the second letter immediately. They have 4 days to respond before Congress can vote to "decide the matter." So that's 4 days to keep Trump out of office and help keep America a little safer.
The way I read that Trump would be president again until they write the second letter.
Trump writes his "I'm really OK" letter to be given control again.

- Pence has 4 days to write his own letter saying "no he's not"
- Congress meets to discuss it (if they're not in session, they can delay it by 2 more days)
- Congress then has 21 days to decide the matter after they receives the second letter.

If they stall it in congress (without voting) then the clock runs out when Biden takes over.
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Old 7th January 2021, 08:00 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
The vice president and the cabinet are not required to write the second letter immediately. They have 4 days to respond before Congress can vote to "decide the matter." So that's 4 days to keep Trump out of office and help keep America a little safer.

Link to the 25th Amendment
The way I read that Trump would be president again until they write the second letter.


According to the National Affairs a conservative quarterly journal, Section 4 is often misinterpreted on this point:

Quote:
Under Section 4, when the president declares that "no inability exists," he does not retake power immediately. The vice president and cabinet have four days to decide whether to disagree and send the matter to Congress; during those four days, the vice president remains acting president. Unfortunately, Section 4 is often misread on this point.

Among numerous examples of learned commentators making this error is Jon Meacham, who got it wrong in a January 2018 column in Time magazine. (When the error was brought to his attention, he had Time run a correction.)
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Old 7th January 2021, 08:01 PM   #370
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None of this matters unless the cabinet and Pence invokes the 25th. Pence said he is not going to.
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Old 7th January 2021, 08:03 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I think the idea is that if the republican caucus is split, where there are not enough "anti-Trump" congress-critters to keep Trump out of office. In that scenario, delaying the vote (thanks to the work of Moscow Mitch, or Pelosi) would be the way to keep the 25th amendment in place.
So, as I said earlier (possibly elsewhere), that would depend on McConnell.
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Old 7th January 2021, 08:07 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
According to the National Affairs a conservative quarterly journal, Section 4 is often misinterpreted on this point:
You missed my edit where I pointed out that I had seen something like that and changed my mind as recently as today. At the moment, I'm not sure how to tell who is right about that.


Does appear to be moot for the moment based on recent news though.
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Old 7th January 2021, 08:10 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
- Pence has 4 days to write his own letter saying "no he's not"
And it depends on whether Trump is president during those four days. I'm not sure about that at the moment.
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Old 7th January 2021, 08:21 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
The vice president and the cabinet are not required to write the second letter immediately. They have 4 days to respond before Congress can vote to "decide the matter." So that's 4 days to keep Trump out of office and help keep America a little safer.

Link to the 25th Amendment
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
The way I read that Trump would be president again until they write the second letter. (ETA: But I'm not sure of this and, in fact, changed my mind earlier today on this. I read it this way but see it explained the same way you are taking it. Not sure at the moment).
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Trump writes his "I'm really OK" letter to be given control again.

- Pence has 4 days to write his own letter saying "no he's not"
- Congress meets to discuss it (if they're not in session, they can delay it by 2 more days)
- Congress then has 21 days to decide the matter after they receives the second letter.

If they stall it in congress (without voting) then the clock runs out when Biden takes over.
I see I was ninja'd. :-)

I'm glad you posted though. IMHO the 2nd paragraph of the 4th section of the 25th amendment is poorly written, especially considering that it's about the peaceful transfer of political power. One would think that the authors would have tried to be crystal clear as to precisely what they meant. I found your 2nd and 3rd bullet points helpful.
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Old 7th January 2021, 08:22 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
You missed my edit where I pointed out that I had seen something like that and changed my mind as recently as today. At the moment, I'm not sure how to tell who is right about that.

I write slowly, and it's been a while since I posted here. I find the interface a bit clunky. I saw your edit after I posted my response, but after wrestling with the interface I wasn't going to delete it.

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Old 7th January 2021, 09:23 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Kaylee;
How can Pence and the cabinet justify not using the 25th amendment to remove Trump from the White House after yesterday's events?

I'm also wondering if they can be charged with sedition for failure to do so.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Because this isn't incapacity to perform the duties of president but falls under the whole high crimes and misdemeanors and so should be another round of impeachment not the 25th amendment?
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
They should 25th his ass and then impeach. Yesterday was, in the most charitable interpretation, a total abdication of duty and inexcusably poor judgment.
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
25th is about the president being unable to discharge his powers and duties. Trump's sworn duty is to protect the US constitution. He not only failed to do that yesterday, he actively went against it. So the 25th applies.
Unable does not have the same meaning as unwilling, so I can see why some would say the 25th amendment does not apply. However, mental illness is regarded as an incapacity and, I think, sometimes diagnosed when it is believed that the person poses a danger to himself and/or others. Trump advocated sedition and 4 people died yesterday as a result. It might be a stretch to try to use the 25th amendment in this situation but if it would help prevent a coup, an unneccesary war, or another national emergency I'm OK with it.

I realize that Pence said he will not invoke the 25th amendment. The way the amendment is written it seems that the cabinet members cannot invoke it without the vice president's support.

Trump appears to have become quite meek after getting his hands slapped by Twitter and Facebook.

Despite that, I find it worrisome that his actions are not being met with a serious response by enough members of his cabinet or Congress to remove him from office. Without a strong response it's plausible that another politician will try, more successfully, in the future to shutdown our democracy (such as it is).

This has made me wonder if charges of sedition could be made against people for abdicating their duty in this type of situation, and who would have standing to do so?
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Old 7th January 2021, 09:24 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Trump writes his "I'm really OK" letter to be given control again.

- Pence has 4 days to write his own letter saying "no he's not"
- Congress meets to discuss it (if they're not in session, they can delay it by 2 more days)
- Congress then has 21 days to decide the matter after they receives the second letter.

If they stall it in congress (without voting) then the clock runs out when Biden takes over.
Yep, this bit is the important bit. because while this situation is in effect, Pence is Acting President, and Trump has no powers.
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Old 7th January 2021, 09:28 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
Trump appears to have become quite meek after getting his hands slapped by Twitter and Facebook.
After serious talk of a second impeachment or invocation of the 25th made him scared for his own power and prestige. He wants to remain president because then he is "safe", doesn't want to give all that up, and doesn't give a flying **** about anyone else how he keeps it.
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Old 7th January 2021, 09:48 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
Unable does not have the same meaning as unwilling, so I can see why some would say the 25th amendment does not apply. However, mental illness is regarded as an incapacity and, I think, sometimes diagnosed when it is believed that the person poses a danger to himself and/or others. Trump advocated sedition and 4 people died yesterday as a result. It might be a stretch to try to use the 25th amendment in this situation but if it would help prevent a coup, an unneccesary war, or another national emergency I'm OK with it.

I realize that Pence said he will not invoke the 25th amendment. The way the amendment is written it seems that the cabinet members cannot invoke it without the vice president's support.

Trump appears to have become quite meek after getting his hands slapped by Twitter and Facebook.

Despite that, I find it worrisome that his actions are not being met with a serious response by enough members of his cabinet or Congress to remove him from office. Without a strong response it's plausible that another politician will try, more successfully, in the future to shutdown our democracy (such as it is).

This has made me wonder if charges of sedition could be made against people for abdicating their duty in this type of situation, and who would have standing to do so?
I would generally agree with the highlighted line.

That said, someone unwilling to do his job as opposed to being unable to do his job is a distinction without a difference to the people who need the job done.

Anyway you look at it, the cabinet invoking the 25th and Congress are likely to have the final say should this happen. Now you might think the courts might weigh in and decide for them. I don't think so since the Amendment itself has remedies to resolving the conflict.
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Old 7th January 2021, 09:59 PM   #380
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Donny was demonstrably unable to discharge his duty to protect the US constitution. It can be reasonably argued that he has done so from Day One. But in this case it showed to the world his failure to do so in a situation where it was imperative that he should. That this failure is because of his own wanton ambition and mental deficiencies is almost beside the point.
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Old 8th January 2021, 08:08 PM   #381
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So it happens and he is impeached. Who "bells the cat"? Who goes into the White House and drags him out?
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Old 8th January 2021, 08:27 PM   #382
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18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection
U.S. Code

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(L), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147.)
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Old 8th January 2021, 08:32 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Good luck with that.
Well, they can impeach because they just need the House vote for that, and they have it.

To have him removed...

I would guess that any Impeachment is likely to hit the Senate after Trump has left the Whitehouse, and so they will be looking into the case based on should we allow him to run for office again. They can be a lot "braver" once he is out to say "no you can't come back" than they need to be to actually kick him out. Heck even kicking him out with a week or so left might be something they are willing to do where they wouldn't have previously.
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Old 8th January 2021, 08:34 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
So it happens and he is impeached. Who "bells the cat"? Who goes into the White House and drags him out?
The Secret Service is entirely capable of removing trespassers from the Whitehouse.
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Old 8th January 2021, 10:13 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The Secret Service is entirely capable of removing trespassers from the Whitehouse.
Unlike the Capitol Police, I suppose.
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Old 8th January 2021, 10:29 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The Secret Service is entirely capable of removing trespassers from the Whitehouse.
.

I agree. Unfortunately Trump would not be considered a trespasser unless he is:
  1. actually impeached by the House
    and then
  2. convicted by the Senate.

From what I read, the House is not going to start the impeachment process until next week at the earliest if at all. I'm just amazed, what does it take to get rid of this seditious and evil orange man? The House should be working on this through the weekend.

In less than two weeks after the presidential election Trump (per CNN)
Quote:
carried out sweeping changes atop the Defense Department's civilian leadership structure, removing several of its most senior officials and replacing them with perceived loyalists to the President.
The Pentagon (per the Business Insider)
Quote:
curtailed the ability of DC guardsmen to deploy troops, receive ammo and riot gear, engage with protesters, share equipment with local police, and use surveillance without explicit approval from President Trump's acting defense secretary, Christopher Miller, according to The Post.

Guardsmen didn't arrive to support US Capitol Police — who were ill-prepared and quickly overrun — until more than two hours after its chief called for them, according to the Post.
I think the fact that Trump changed the leadership structure in the Pentagon in November helps prove premeditation to commit sedition. Any other president upon losing reelection would be focused on tying up loose ends, not thinking about replacing key staff at the Pentagon.
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Old 8th January 2021, 10:38 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
.

I agree. Unfortunately Trump would not be considered a trespasser unless he is:
  1. actually impeached by the House
    and then
  2. convicted by the Senate.

From what I read, the House is not going to start the impeachment process until next week at the earliest if at all. I'm just amazed, what does it take to get rid of this seditious and evil orange man? The House should be working on this through the weekend.

In less than two weeks after the presidential election Trump (per CNN)

The Pentagon (per the Business Insider)

I think the fact that Trump changed the leadership structure in the Pentagon in November helps prove premeditation to commit sedition. Any other president upon losing reelection would be focused on tying up loose ends, not thinking about replacing key staff at the Pentagon.
McConnell just circulated a memo describing the process of a second impeachment trial. A Senate trial would not start until 1:PM January 20th. It could start on January 19th, but only through unanimous consent which is the day the Senate reconvenes.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/...l-of-trump?amp
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Old 9th January 2021, 12:43 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
McConnell just circulated a memo describing the process of a second impeachment trial. A Senate trial would not start until 1:PM January 20th. It could start on January 19th, but only through unanimous consent which is the day the Senate reconvenes.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/...l-of-trump?amp
SMH.

Your link about McConnell's memo goes into a little more detail about why an impeachment trial could not be held before Jan 20th.
Quote:
McConnell's memo notes that the Senate, which is scheduled to hold pro-forma sessions until Jan. 19, the day before Biden is to take the oath of office, cannot conduct any business during those pro-forma meetings without unanimous consent.

<snip>

"It would require the consent of all 100 senators to conduct any business of any kind during the scheduled pro forma sessions prior to January 19, and therefore the consent of all 100 senators to begin acting on any articles of impeachment during those sessions," the memo states.
I didn't know what a pro-forma session is. Here's a definition from the Thoughtco.com website:

Quote:
Key Takeaways: Pro Forma Sessions
  • Pro forma sessions are meetings of the U.S. Congress held “in form only.” Either house of Congress can hold pro forma sessions.
  • During pro forma sessions, no votes are taken and no other legislative business is conducted.
  • Pro forma sessions are held for the purpose of meeting the “three-day rule” in Article I, Section 5 of the U.S. Constitution. The three day rule prohibits either chamber of Congress from not meeting for more than three consecutive calendar days during a congressional session without the approval of the other chamber.

<snip>

Typically, no legislative business, such as the introduction or debate on bills or resolutions, is conducted during a pro forma session. As a result, pro forma sessions rarely last more than a few minutes from gavel-to-gavel. (emphasis added)
I could not find anything in the internet to confirm that the Senate's calendar could not be changed without 100% agreement to allow business to be conducted on days previously scheduled for pro forma sessions. McConnell is not one of the politicians I'm willing to trust without verification.

It's interesting that if the 25th amendment were to be invoked that per section 4 the clock starts ticking after Congress receives the 2nd letter from the VP and cabinet majority stating that the president is unfit to serve. Congress then has 21 days to vote on the matter with one exception. If they are not in session, they have 21 days + an additional 2 days to reconvene and then decide the matter.

It's interesting that the constitution does not have a similar requirement forcing Congress to meet and decide the matter of impeachment.

Considering how serious the situation is, McConnell statement that the Senate can't start the trial before the 20th because they have literally scheduled sessions in form only until then sounds really lame.

Lastly, a fun fact. McConnell was in the Senate during the Clinton's impeachment trial. He voted to impeach Clinton for essentially having an affair while in office. I don't condon Clinton's behavior for having an affair with an intern who worked in his office and was less than half his age, but I don't think his behavior merited being impeached. That McConnell thinks Clinton did deserve to be impeached but that Trump does not just boggles my mind.
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Old 9th January 2021, 07:49 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
So it happens and he is impeached. Who "bells the cat"? Who goes into the White House and drags him out?
If you need a volunteer, I can be on the next flight out of LA. Could I bring a few friends?
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Old 9th January 2021, 08:53 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
If you need a volunteer, I can be on the next flight out of LA. Could I bring a few friends?
Now you are thinking like Trump's supporters on Wednesday. Don't go there.
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Old 9th January 2021, 09:22 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Now you are thinking like Trump's supporters on Wednesday. Don't go there.
I assure you I have no interest in acting outside of the law.

If he is impeached, and the senate convicts, I'd just like to be a witness to his ignominious ouster.

I've seen a space shuttle launch, and a total solar eclipse. These were wondrous things, and I'm forever grateful that I got to see them. I didn't play a significant role in either event.
Trump's removal would be something like that.

If the impeachment fails (as seems likely to me), I'll express my disapproval in internet posts, grumbling to friends, and including it in my future decisions about who to vote for. And I would be absolutely opposed to anyone deciding that, "for the good of the country," he should be dragged out unless the proper constitutional processes (impeachment/conviction, 25th amendment, or ordinary transfer of power) had been completed.
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Old 9th January 2021, 09:43 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Quote:
So it happens and he is impeached. Who "bells the cat"? Who goes into the White House and drags him out?
If you need a volunteer, I can be on the next flight out of LA. Could I bring a few friends?
Ewwwwwee.. that means you might have to touch him with your bare hands


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Old 9th January 2021, 10:02 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Ewwwwwee.. that means you might have to touch him with your bare hands


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For a bit of light relief:

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Old 9th January 2021, 10:04 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Unlike the Capitol Police, I suppose.
Too soon.
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Old 9th January 2021, 05:04 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
If you need a volunteer, I can be on the next flight out of LA. Could I bring a few friends?
I was not volunteering or even asking for volunteers. It's just not on my watch. I was only asking what legal organization would be called upon to do so. And wondering how far they would have to go in a physical way.
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Old 12th January 2021, 12:07 AM   #396
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So let's say Pence never invokes the 25th (he won't, he's been drinking toxic koolaid for more than 4 years). And the impeachment goes through but knowing McConnell won't bring it to the floor, Pelosi doesn't give it to the Senate until Schumer is in charge of the Senate and Trump is already out of office.

It may take a while to sort out Trump pardoning himself or even if he gets Pence to do it with a last minute resignation, and it may take 100 days or so as Biden gets his agenda up and running.

So given that scenario, if DC charges or state charges are brought against Trump and his arrest ordered, what does his secret service detail do?
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Old 12th January 2021, 12:12 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So given that scenario, if DC charges or state charges are brought against Trump and his arrest ordered, what does his secret service detail do?
They place him under house arrest.
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Old 12th January 2021, 01:04 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So let's say Pence never invokes the 25th (he won't, he's been drinking toxic koolaid for more than 4 years). And the impeachment goes through but knowing McConnell won't bring it to the floor, Pelosi doesn't give it to the Senate until Schumer is in charge of the Senate and Trump is already out of office.

It may take a while to sort out Trump pardoning himself or even if he gets Pence to do it with a last minute resignation, and it may take 100 days or so as Biden gets his agenda up and running.

So given that scenario, if DC charges or state charges are brought against Trump and his arrest ordered, what does his secret service detail do?
The Secret Service in protecting a former President (or anyone else) acts "Under the direction of the Secretary of Homeland Security" (18 USC 3056(a)). If there is any question, they do what the Secretary of Homeland Security says. And, if it was even questioned, the Secretary will order the Secret Service to allow a lawful arrest.
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Last edited by DevilsAdvocate; 12th January 2021 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 12th January 2021, 04:33 AM   #399
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Andrew Torrez of the Opening Arguments Podcast made a slam-dunk argument that Trump broke Georgia Election Law with his phone call.
If Kemp doesn't pardon Trump, a prosecutor would get to have Trump send to jail for no less than one year.
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Old 12th January 2021, 09:53 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
The Secret Service in protecting a former President (or anyone else) acts "Under the direction of the Secretary of Homeland Security" (18 USC 3056(a)). If there is any question, they do what the Secretary of Homeland Security says. And, if it was even questioned, the Secretary will order the Secret Service to allow a lawful arrest.
And who decides when their isn't one of those. There isn't one "now", right? "now" in quotes because I don't know the details of when his resignation is effective.
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