[Split Thread] A second impeachment - Page 9

JoeMorgue · 11th January 2021, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Fizil

I am confused. CNN says the impeachment resolution was introduced. I listened to the entire pro-forma session of the House of Representatives, and did not hear it. The session started, the Sergeant-at-Arms resigned, there were a few committee assignment motions, then the motion to ask Pence to invoke the 25th, then they adjourned. Where the hell is CNN getting the idea they introduced an impeachment resolution too? Was it just introduced on paper and not brought up during this session?

Because Congress is such a goddamn drama-queen of procedural dog and pony shows that "The process has started" has almost no meaning because the process is so intentionally long and intentionally convoluted and every process starts 10 times and ends 20 times.

I get it they want everything to have an air of ponderous importance but Jesus we're on a time limit here...

slyjoe · 11th January 2021, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Fizil

I am confused. CNN says the impeachment resolution was introduced. I listened to the entire pro-forma session of the House of Representatives, and did not hear it. The session started, the Sergeant-at-Arms resigned, there were a few committee assignment motions, then the motion to ask Pence to invoke the 25th, then they adjourned. Where the hell is CNN getting the idea they introduced an impeachment resolution too? Was it just introduced on paper and not brought up during this session?

What you saw re: the 25th was NOT the pro forma session. CNN said the pro forma session came after the session that was recessed until 9AM tomorrow.

ETA: Now I'm not sure which was which. The CNN article doesn't seem to be consistent regarding timelines. And I didn't catch the entire session(s).

jadebox · 11th January 2021, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

But it looks like the vote won't be until Wednesday for... whatever reason.

It's because they follow the rules. The resolution has to go to the House Rules Committee before the full House votes.

jadebox · 11th January 2021, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

What you saw re: the 25th was NOT the pro forma session. CNN said the pro forma session came after the session that was recessed until 9AM tomorrow.

ETA: Now I'm not sure which was which. The CNN article doesn't seem to be consistent regarding timelines. And I didn't catch the entire session(s).

The pro-forma session that introduced the resolution to impeach came right after the House recessed this morning's session. It was very brief ... probably about a minute long. So, it would have been easy to miss.

slyjoe · 11th January 2021, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by jadebox

The pro-forma session that introduced the resolution to impeach came right after the House recessed this morning's session. It was very brief ... probably about a minute long. So, it would have been easy to miss.

Thank you.

When they said recess I quite watching. That made it easy to miss too.

Segnosaur · 11th January 2021, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Because Congress is such a goddamn drama-queen of procedural dog and pony shows that "The process has started" has almost no meaning because the process is so intentionally long and intentionally convoluted and every process starts 10 times and ends 20 times.

I get it they want everything to have an air of ponderous importance but Jesus we're on a time limit here...

Unfortunately, unless they get Moscow Mitch and a significant block of the Republican party on side, even if the house rushes things the case probably wouldn't be voted on in the senate until after Biden's inauguration.

So, if they fast-track it, they still won't remove Trump early but may end up looking 'sloppy'. So if they take their time, do things according to procedure, they may be able to highlight Trump's transgressions in a better way.

That could be their thinking.

JoeMorgue · 11th January 2021, 10:24 AM

Call me crazy but I want a little pep in the step when you're responding to an angry mob storming the Capitol.

They are not acting like they truly think what Trump was did was bad and that they can just get around to dealing with it anytime they feel like it, which was the problem with the last impeachment as well.

Delphic Oracle · 11th January 2021, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Unfortunately, unless they get Moscow Mitch and a significant block of the Republican party on side, even if the house rushes things the case probably wouldn't be voted on in the senate until after Biden's inauguration.

So, if they fast-track it, they still won't remove Trump early but may end up looking 'sloppy'. So if they take their time, do things according to procedure, they may be able to highlight Trump's transgressions in a better way.

That could be their thinking.

Central to the point, an AG who will cooperate in finding and forwarding along evidence.

Tero · 11th January 2021, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

I wouldn't be so sure.

I know that conventional wisdom is that, but there are a lot of Senators who will see how unpopular the attempted lynching of not only Nancy Pelosi, but also Trump's VP.

It might actually be rather brave of them to side with Trump. Especially if opinion polls show his popularity nosediving, which it might.

They will get the 51 votes, if it's in the senate later, not now. Possibly Romney and a couple more. But they would need 17 republicans to permanently ban him from office.

jimbob · 11th January 2021, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Tero

They will get the 51 votes, if it's in the senate later, not now. Possibly Romney and a couple more. But they would need 17 republicans to permanently ban him from office.

I was thinking about abstentions etc

JoeMorgue · 11th January 2021, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

I was thinking about abstentions etc

//Slight hijack//

This isn't a law about raising the tax rate on Marmoset Skin Hats from 2% to 2.1%. It's an impeachment.

You should have to have an opinion and own it.

jimbob · 11th January 2021, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

//Slight hijack//

This isn't a law about raising the tax rate on Marmoset Skin Hats from 2% to 2.1%. It's an impeachment.

You should have to have an opinion and own it.

Hell yes, but if Republican Senators are too afraid to vote to convict or to acquit this time round, as long as there are enough of them, it would be good... maybe better because it would demonstrate how much of a backbone they have.

Enough will be aware that it's only going to look worse as the levers of power have moved and investigations into Trump and associates progress.

JoeMorgue · 11th January 2021, 11:54 AM

Again I am just so over and done waiting for the "Oh this will be the thing that makes the Republicans reveal their true colors and that will finally matter this time, and we said that last time but this time we mean it" moment to come.

dasmiller · 11th January 2021, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Hell yes, but if Republican Senators are too afraid to vote to convict or to acquit this time round, as long as there are enough of them, it would be good... maybe better because it would demonstrate how much of a backbone they have.

Meh. If Lindsey Graham's spine was made of spaghetti, it wouldn't even be al dente.

Aridas · 11th January 2021, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I don't know if he wanted them to storm the Capitol. I seriously doubt that he wanted them to smash windows to get in.

On the other hand, multiple reports seem to say that Trump was quite gleeful at the chaos that he unleashed and didn't understand why everyone else around him wasn't.

All too credible, unfortunately, given that this is Trump. Going further, Trump's been actively working to set the groundwork for him becoming a dictator for a long time now. His only immediate disappointment with the attack on the Capitol building is fairly certainly that it didn't directly succeed in overturning the election to keep him in power. Any regret will likely be at the negative consequences suffered, rather than any hint of remorse for what he did.

MRC_Hans · 11th January 2021, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I'm not playing devil's advocate - I genuinely think it's a dumb move.

And I'm not the only one - here's a lifelong hard-left columnist from The Guardian saying the exact same thing, for the exact same reasons:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ump-exile-base

There you go - you nailed it on both counts.

Trump is an extraordinarily stupid and self-absorbed person. The idea of cause and effect is beyond his brain, and he was just playing the same game he's been playing since "Lock her up!" chants started. "Hey, they're cheering while I'm talking, I'll keep talking!"

As I keep saying, and as the Guardian bloke says, you can rise above it or sink down to his level and Democrats have chosen the latter.

So, a president inciting violence against institutions of democracy should not face repercussions?

Hans

JoeMorgue · 11th January 2021, 12:18 PM

Right now the Republicans (and EVERYONE making this argument) are playing the roll of the abusive spouse who now wants to keep the marriage going "for the sake of the children."

Delvo · 11th January 2021, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

So, a president inciting violence against institutions of democracy should not face repercussions?

A better question would be exactly what anybody else has done that is sinking down to his level.

Paul2 · 11th January 2021, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

If the bar is set so low that dislike causes the dismissal of a President, then you've dug a huge hole for every other person who wants to sit in that office.

Trust me, the next time a Democratic POTUS holds a rally with thousands of people after losing an election, and after claiming even *before* the election that, if they lose, it was rigged, and reminds them that the election was stolen, and exhorts the rally to march down to the Capitol where the electoral votes are being counted to prevent the steal, and the mob breaks in and threatens legislators and people die, I will be the first to ask for the impeachment of that POTUS.

acbytesla · 11th January 2021, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by dasmiller

Meh. If Lindsey Graham's spine was made of spaghetti, it wouldn't even be al dente.

I'm suprised the man can stand up.

Paul2 · 11th January 2021, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

He should be impeached because he committed impeachable offenses. It is the right thing to do no matter whether it has any real effect or what the political consequences are. It is the right thing to do.

The cynical view is that doing something in politics because it is the right thing to do is hopelessly naive. And that's exactly why Trump should be impeached: if we can't do something this significant because it is the right thing to do, we're done as a society. It's only the cynical who think that cynicism is the way forward. The rest of us, however, do not need any of that crap.

acbytesla · 11th January 2021, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Unfortunately, unless they get Moscow Mitch and a significant block of the Republican party on side, even if the house rushes things the case probably wouldn't be voted on in the senate until after Biden's inauguration.

So, if they fast-track it, they still won't remove Trump early but may end up looking 'sloppy'. So if they take their time, do things according to procedure, they may be able to highlight Trump's transgressions in a better way.

That could be their thinking.

It won't be. Since the Senate is out of session, it requires a unanimous vote to reconvene before the 20th. The Senate will be back on the 19th but only holding pro forma procedures. McConnell has said that they could convene for a Senate trial on January 20th at 1:00 PM.

ponderingturtle · 11th January 2021, 01:07 PM

I for one welcome this new and exciting normal in our governing process. I look forward to the next storming of the capital, bets on what it will be about? I think repealing Obamacare is the most likely.

Azrael 5 · 11th January 2021, 01:10 PM

ANyoen seen this? https://www.state.gov/biographies/donald-j-trump/

It states "Donald Trump Presidencey ended 1/11/2021 at 19:38(GMT time)

Possibly some kind of webmaster optimism.

dasmiller · 11th January 2021, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Paul2

The cynical view is that doing something in politics because it is the right thing to do is hopelessly naive. And that's exactly why Trump should be impeached: if we can't do something this significant because it is the right thing to do, we're done as a society.

Well said, sir.

JoeMorgue · 11th January 2021, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

It won't be. Since the Senate is out of session, it requires a unanimous vote to reconvene before the 20th. The Senate will be back on the 19th but only holding pro forma procedures. McConnell has said that they could convene for a Senate trial on January 20th at 1:00 PM.

Well how about this.

The Senate could go back in session. They have a job to do. They can go home when the job is done.

These aren't fry cooks at McDonalds. You don't just get to "clock out" and Fred Flintstone down the back of the dinosaur when it hits 5 o'clock.

They are public servants. Why are they deciding they'll get around to reacting to a coup based on their schedule?

The Atheist · 11th January 2021, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

So, a president inciting violence against institutions of democracy should not face repercussions?

Hans

He already is: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ex_cid=rrpromo

His support has absolutely tanked since the riot.

The only thing the world hates worse than a sore loser is a sore winner, so go Democrats!

Originally Posted by Paul2

...and reminds them that the election was stolen...

Not equivalent, because they didn't try a Dildonian Coup, but it's not like Democrats didn't have a very fat cry in 2016 and for years afterwards:

WaPo - The Election was Stolen

Hillary Clinton - We Still Don't Know What Happened (in 2016) and Would Have Argued About it but Lacked Mechanism

Many Democrats Think 2016 Was Rigged

Lot of very short memories about.

See above re: bad winners.

zooterkin · 11th January 2021, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

ANyoen seen this? https://www.state.gov/biographies/donald-j-trump/

It states "Donald Trump Presidencey ended 1/11/2021 at 19:38(GMT time)

Possibly some kind of webmaster optimism.

Currently showing:

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MRC_Hans · 11th January 2021, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Delvo

A better question would be exactly what anybody else has done that is sinking down to his level.

No, that is a separate question.

Hans

JoeMorgue · 11th January 2021, 01:39 PM

The day the internet up and decided that anyone who opposed you was being a hypocrite meant you didn't do anything wrong was... well one of the days intellectual standards died.

Paul2 · 11th January 2021, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Not equivalent, because they didn't try a Dildonian Coup, but it's not like Democrats didn't have a very fat cry in 2016 and for years afterwards:

WaPo - The Election was Stolen

Hillary Clinton - We Still Don't Know What Happened (in 2016) and Would Have Argued About it but Lacked Mechanism

Many Democrats Think 2016 Was Rigged

Lot of very short memories about.

See above re: bad winners.

You're setting up a straw man. All (most of?) the other circumstances around Trump's high crimes are absent from 2016, and I never said that claiming an election was stolen is sufficient for impeachment, but it can be included as part of the reasons for impeachment. Especially when Trump's claims of fraud, etc., have been so thoroughly brought into court - 65 times! - to no avail.

Vixen · 11th January 2021, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Trump just announced if he is impeached a second time, Rudy Giuliane will be his attonrey.
Now I really hope it happens just for the entertainment value.

I bagsy it's held at Four Seasons Total Landscaping.

Vixen · 11th January 2021, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by turingtest

It might be worth pointing out that nobody I have seen- here, in the media, or among GOP politicians- have suggested that the same "heal the divide" rationale for not impeaching Trump for inciting a mob to riot should also extend to not prosecuting the members of that mob for doing so. The guy who put his feet up on the desk in Pelosi's office, the idiot who carried off the lectern, the W. Va legislator, etc.- all these people face real consequences in the form of jail time, fines, loss of jobs, and so on.<snip>

Trump's defence is that he has nothing to do with 'low class things'. Although we could bring in his taste in furniture as exhibit A.

Vixen · 11th January 2021, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Paul2

This "heal the division" is absolute bullcrap, and we just crossed the line where we're gonna pretend differently. **** that. The ones who want to heal the division are the ones who fomented it. Give. Me. A. Break.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

jimbob · 11th January 2021, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by dasmiller

Meh. If Lindsey Graham's spine was made of spaghetti, it wouldn't even be al dente.

Yup. Which is why he'd lack the courage to vote to convict, but equally I suspect he'd lack the courage to go on record as saying it's all fine...

It would show up the GOP for what it is.

I can imagine some handwringing, and statements that it wasn't the party of Nixon that they joined. Followed by them neither hindering nor helping the impeachment.

JoeMorgue · 11th January 2021, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Yup. Which is why he'd lack the courage to vote to convict, but equally I suspect he'd lack the courage to go on record as saying it's all fine...

Which is why for an Impeachment vote, Senators shouldn't be able to abstain or be absent.

Everyone should have to go on record as to whether or not agree with the actions of President Trump and ******* own it.

No passing the buck, no staying in the corner, no mush-mouth middle of the road passiveness.

Vixen · 11th January 2021, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

When it comes to criminal trials, I think The Atheist here is correct. I don't think he could be convicted, at least not based on the words of his speech. As he so often does, Trump uses weasel words, and someone else ends up holding the bag, and he denies responsibility. I was listening live to his speech, and I worried that the mob would storm the Capitol, but he didn't actually say that they ought to. It was painfully obvious to me, though, that some of the crowd would take it that way.

To get a criminal conviction, you would have to show that Donald Trump knew, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a criminal act would result from his incitement. That's a tough sell.

Impeachment is a different matter, though. There's no "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard.

I also wonder if somehow failing to call off the crowd could be a criminal offense. Could not protecting the Capitol somehow be considered criminal negligence? I'm usually strongly against any attempt to take ordinary actions and twist them into a criminal charge, In this case, his actions weren't ordinary, and I doubt they were criminal, but if it could be shown that he knew criminal actions were occurring, and he believed he could stop them, and he deliberately chose not to stop them, I think that would be criminal, but again it's a tough sell. It might depend, though, on the testimony of others.

In general, I would not put money on a conviction in a criminal trial. I think the standards are too high. However, he did incite that crowd to storm the Capitol, and I don't really care if he knew he was doing it, or if he did it accidentally via incompetence. Throw the bum out. The man should not be President, and I say that with confidence that goes beyond a reasonable doubt.

As you know, Trump fired a lot of top guys in the Pentagon and inserted his flunkies. If it can be shown that he conspired to have Capitol Hill building deliberately under-policed and a deliberate delay of the National Guard - or worse still a veto - then it could be possible to convict in a criminal trial.

There is a view that key 'demonstrators; were given detailed maps as inside knowledge would be needed to even know where, say, Pelosi's office is.

Vixen · 11th January 2021, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

Trump should be removed from office, impeached, charged and convicted of his crimes against this nation, and thrown in jail.

The only question now is whether he should get the death penalty as a traitor to this country. I oppose the death penalty, but considering this President's desire to use it, I may make an exception for this case.

That is the only question. Whether he should be sentenced to life in prison or get the death penalty.

Impeachment is not even questionable. He should be impeached and convicted because he committed impeachable offenses. Period. No politics. No political strategy. He should be impeached for his offense.

He should be convicted for his crime of sedition. He should be sentenced to prison.

The only question is whether he should get the death penalty or a life sentnce.

Bring back Devil's Island. That's what I say.

Silly Green Monkey · 11th January 2021, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

He already is: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ex_cid=rrpromo

His support has absolutely tanked since the riot.

The only thing the world hates worse than a sore loser is a sore winner, so go Democrats!

Really. What other crimes could someone commit, even down to swiping a candy bar, should be punished with LOSS OF SUPPORT or SOCIAL STANDING? Do laws mean nothing to you?

"Don't kill her, people won't like you anymore!"

The Atheist · 11th January 2021, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Paul2

You're setting up a straw man.

No, I specifically pointed out it isn't equivalent.

The point is that Hillary and many Democrats still insist she should/would have/did win in 2016 because Russians/Assange/FBI...

And they carried out violent protests, in case you forgot:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_riots

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...resident-video

https://theconversation.com/after-th...mes-next-68778

Seems to me both sides have their problems and maybe if the leaders took the lead and showed how to win gracefully, at least some Americans might respect that.

Feel free to keep going down the road to dissolving, though - I welcome our new Chinese overlords.

Try asking yourself what the best outcome for Xi, Putin and the mad Mullahs is here - an implacably opposed and divided country, or one where both sides can show at least some minimal cohesion?

(I still laugh about the massive **** fight RandFan and I had a decade ago when I said America was massively divided and he disagreed.)

11th January 2021, 10:05 AM	#321
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,903	Originally Posted by Fizil I am confused. CNN says the impeachment resolution was introduced. I listened to the entire pro-forma session of the House of Representatives, and did not hear it. The session started, the Sergeant-at-Arms resigned, there were a few committee assignment motions, then the motion to ask Pence to invoke the 25th, then they adjourned. Where the hell is CNN getting the idea they introduced an impeachment resolution too? Was it just introduced on paper and not brought up during this session? Because Congress is such a goddamn drama-queen of procedural dog and pony shows that "The process has started" has almost no meaning because the process is so intentionally long and intentionally convoluted and every process starts 10 times and ends 20 times. I get it they want everything to have an air of ponderous importance but Jesus we're on a time limit here...
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." Last edited by JoeMorgue; 11th January 2021 at 10:06 AM.

11th January 2021, 10:05 AM	#322
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,544	Originally Posted by Fizil I am confused. CNN says the impeachment resolution was introduced. I listened to the entire pro-forma session of the House of Representatives, and did not hear it. The session started, the Sergeant-at-Arms resigned, there were a few committee assignment motions, then the motion to ask Pence to invoke the 25th, then they adjourned. Where the hell is CNN getting the idea they introduced an impeachment resolution too? Was it just introduced on paper and not brought up during this session? What you saw re: the 25th was NOT the pro forma session. CNN said the pro forma session came after the session that was recessed until 9AM tomorrow. ETA: Now I'm not sure which was which. The CNN article doesn't seem to be consistent regarding timelines. And I didn't catch the entire session(s).
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade Last edited by slyjoe; 11th January 2021 at 10:10 AM.

11th January 2021, 10:14 AM	#325
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,544	Originally Posted by jadebox The pro-forma session that introduced the resolution to impeach came right after the House recessed this morning's session. It was very brief ... probably about a minute long. So, it would have been easy to miss. Thank you. When they said recess I quite watching. That made it easy to miss too.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

11th January 2021, 10:19 AM	#326
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 16,858	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Because Congress is such a goddamn drama-queen of procedural dog and pony shows that "The process has started" has almost no meaning because the process is so intentionally long and intentionally convoluted and every process starts 10 times and ends 20 times. I get it they want everything to have an air of ponderous importance but Jesus we're on a time limit here... Unfortunately, unless they get Moscow Mitch and a significant block of the Republican party on side, even if the house rushes things the case probably wouldn't be voted on in the senate until after Biden's inauguration. So, if they fast-track it, they still won't remove Trump early but may end up looking 'sloppy'. So if they take their time, do things according to procedure, they may be able to highlight Trump's transgressions in a better way. That could be their thinking.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

11th January 2021, 10:24 AM	#327
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,903	Call me crazy but I want a little pep in the step when you're responding to an angry mob storming the Capitol. They are not acting like they truly think what Trump was did was bad and that they can just get around to dealing with it anytime they feel like it, which was the problem with the last impeachment as well.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." Last edited by JoeMorgue; 11th January 2021 at 10:26 AM.

11th January 2021, 10:11 AM	#323
jadebox Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,865	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue But it looks like the vote won't be until Wednesday for... whatever reason. It's because they follow the rules. The resolution has to go to the House Rules Committee before the full House votes.

11th January 2021, 10:13 AM	#324
jadebox Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,865	Originally Posted by slyjoe What you saw re: the 25th was NOT the pro forma session. CNN said the pro forma session came after the session that was recessed until 9AM tomorrow. ETA: Now I'm not sure which was which. The CNN article doesn't seem to be consistent regarding timelines. And I didn't catch the entire session(s). The pro-forma session that introduced the resolution to impeach came right after the House recessed this morning's session. It was very brief ... probably about a minute long. So, it would have been easy to miss.

11th January 2021, 10:24 AM	#328
Delphic Oracle Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 5,278	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Unfortunately, unless they get Moscow Mitch and a significant block of the Republican party on side, even if the house rushes things the case probably wouldn't be voted on in the senate until after Biden's inauguration. So, if they fast-track it, they still won't remove Trump early but may end up looking 'sloppy'. So if they take their time, do things according to procedure, they may be able to highlight Trump's transgressions in a better way. That could be their thinking. Central to the point, an AG who will cooperate in finding and forwarding along evidence.

11th January 2021, 11:14 AM	#329
Tero Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North American prairie Posts: 2,161	Originally Posted by jimbob I wouldn't be so sure. I know that conventional wisdom is that, but there are a lot of Senators who will see how unpopular the attempted lynching of not only Nancy Pelosi, but also Trump's VP. It might actually be rather brave of them to side with Trump. Especially if opinion polls show his popularity nosediving, which it might. They will get the 51 votes, if it's in the senate later, not now. Possibly Romney and a couple more. But they would need 17 republicans to permanently ban him from office.
	__________________ I've deleted the one blog link. You can find the humor blog by searching "the kari report blogspot." Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/

11th January 2021, 11:31 AM	#330
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,685	Originally Posted by Tero They will get the 51 votes, if it's in the senate later, not now. Possibly Romney and a couple more. But they would need 17 republicans to permanently ban him from office. I was thinking about abstentions etc
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

11th January 2021, 11:35 AM	#331
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,903	Originally Posted by jimbob I was thinking about abstentions etc //Slight hijack// This isn't a law about raising the tax rate on Marmoset Skin Hats from 2% to 2.1%. It's an impeachment. You should have to have an opinion and own it.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

11th January 2021, 11:51 AM	#332
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,685	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue //Slight hijack// This isn't a law about raising the tax rate on Marmoset Skin Hats from 2% to 2.1%. It's an impeachment. You should have to have an opinion and own it. Hell yes, but if Republican Senators are too afraid to vote to convict or to acquit this time round, as long as there are enough of them, it would be good... maybe better because it would demonstrate how much of a backbone they have. Enough will be aware that it's only going to look worse as the levers of power have moved and investigations into Trump and associates progress.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

11th January 2021, 11:54 AM	#333
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,903	Again I am just so over and done waiting for the "Oh this will be the thing that makes the Republicans reveal their true colors and that will finally matter this time, and we said that last time but this time we mean it" moment to come.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

11th January 2021, 12:05 PM	#334
dasmiller Just the right amount of cowbell Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon Posts: 6,358	Originally Posted by jimbob Hell yes, but if Republican Senators are too afraid to vote to convict or to acquit this time round, as long as there are enough of them, it would be good... maybe better because it would demonstrate how much of a backbone they have. Meh. If Lindsey Graham's spine was made of spaghetti, it wouldn't even be al dente.
	__________________ "In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt

11th January 2021, 12:14 PM	#335
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 7,331	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I don't know if he wanted them to storm the Capitol. I seriously doubt that he wanted them to smash windows to get in. On the other hand, multiple reports seem to say that Trump was quite gleeful at the chaos that he unleashed and didn't understand why everyone else around him wasn't. All too credible, unfortunately, given that this is Trump. Going further, Trump's been actively working to set the groundwork for him becoming a dictator for a long time now. His only immediate disappointment with the attack on the Capitol building is fairly certainly that it didn't directly succeed in overturning the election to keep him in power. Any regret will likely be at the negative consequences suffered, rather than any hint of remorse for what he did.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 11th January 2021 at 12:16 PM.

11th January 2021, 12:16 PM	#336
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 23,324	Originally Posted by The Atheist I'm not playing devil's advocate - I genuinely think it's a dumb move. And I'm not the only one - here's a lifelong hard-left columnist from The Guardian saying the exact same thing, for the exact same reasons: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ump-exile-base There you go - you nailed it on both counts. Trump is an extraordinarily stupid and self-absorbed person. The idea of cause and effect is beyond his brain, and he was just playing the same game he's been playing since "Lock her up!" chants started. "Hey, they're cheering while I'm talking, I'll keep talking!" As I keep saying, and as the Guardian bloke says, you can rise above it or sink down to his level and Democrats have chosen the latter. So, a president inciting violence against institutions of democracy should not face repercussions? Hans
	__________________ Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.

11th January 2021, 12:18 PM	#337
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,903	Right now the Republicans (and EVERYONE making this argument) are playing the roll of the abusive spouse who now wants to keep the marriage going "for the sake of the children."
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." Last edited by JoeMorgue; 11th January 2021 at 12:46 PM.

11th January 2021, 12:41 PM	#338
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 9,207	Originally Posted by MRC_Hans So, a president inciting violence against institutions of democracy should not face repercussions? A better question would be exactly what anybody else has done that is sinking down to his level.

11th January 2021, 12:57 PM	#339
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,473	Originally Posted by The Atheist If the bar is set so low that dislike causes the dismissal of a President, then you've dug a huge hole for every other person who wants to sit in that office. Trust me, the next time a Democratic POTUS holds a rally with thousands of people after losing an election, and after claiming even before the election that, if they lose, it was rigged, and reminds them that the election was stolen, and exhorts the rally to march down to the Capitol where the electoral votes are being counted to prevent the steal, and the mob breaks in and threatens legislators and people die, I will be the first to ask for the impeachment of that POTUS.
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,473	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

11th January 2021, 01:00 PM	#340
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,942	Originally Posted by dasmiller Meh. If Lindsey Graham's spine was made of spaghetti, it wouldn't even be al dente. I'm suprised the man can stand up.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

11th January 2021, 01:03 PM	#341
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,473	Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate He should be impeached because he committed impeachable offenses. It is the right thing to do no matter whether it has any real effect or what the political consequences are. It is the right thing to do. The cynical view is that doing something in politics because it is the right thing to do is hopelessly naive. And that's exactly why Trump should be impeached: if we can't do something this significant because it is the right thing to do, we're done as a society. It's only the cynical who think that cynicism is the way forward. The rest of us, however, do not need any of that crap.
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,473	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

11th January 2021, 01:06 PM	#342
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,942	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Unfortunately, unless they get Moscow Mitch and a significant block of the Republican party on side, even if the house rushes things the case probably wouldn't be voted on in the senate until after Biden's inauguration. So, if they fast-track it, they still won't remove Trump early but may end up looking 'sloppy'. So if they take their time, do things according to procedure, they may be able to highlight Trump's transgressions in a better way. That could be their thinking. It won't be. Since the Senate is out of session, it requires a unanimous vote to reconvene before the 20th. The Senate will be back on the 19th but only holding pro forma procedures. McConnell has said that they could convene for a Senate trial on January 20th at 1:00 PM.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

11th January 2021, 01:07 PM	#343
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,155	I for one welcome this new and exciting normal in our governing process. I look forward to the next storming of the capital, bets on what it will be about? I think repealing Obamacare is the most likely.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

11th January 2021, 01:10 PM	#344
Azrael 5 Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 6,008	ANyoen seen this? https://www.state.gov/biographies/donald-j-trump/ It states "Donald Trump Presidencey ended 1/11/2021 at 19:38(GMT time) Possibly some kind of webmaster optimism.
Azrael 5 Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 6,008	__________________ "I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown Last edited by Azrael 5; 11th January 2021 at 01:11 PM.

11th January 2021, 01:13 PM	#345
dasmiller Just the right amount of cowbell Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon Posts: 6,358	Originally Posted by Paul2 The cynical view is that doing something in politics because it is the right thing to do is hopelessly naive. And that's exactly why Trump should be impeached: if we can't do something this significant because it is the right thing to do, we're done as a society. Well said, sir.
	__________________ "In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt

11th January 2021, 01:14 PM	#346
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,903	Originally Posted by acbytesla It won't be. Since the Senate is out of session, it requires a unanimous vote to reconvene before the 20th. The Senate will be back on the 19th but only holding pro forma procedures. McConnell has said that they could convene for a Senate trial on January 20th at 1:00 PM. Well how about this. The Senate could go back in session. They have a job to do. They can go home when the job is done. These aren't fry cooks at McDonalds. You don't just get to "clock out" and Fred Flintstone down the back of the dinosaur when it hits 5 o'clock. They are public servants. Why are they deciding they'll get around to reacting to a coup based on their schedule?
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

11th January 2021, 01:26 PM	#347
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27,892	Originally Posted by MRC_Hans So, a president inciting violence against institutions of democracy should not face repercussions? Hans He already is: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ex_cid=rrpromo His support has absolutely tanked since the riot. The only thing the world hates worse than a sore loser is a sore winner, so go Democrats! Originally Posted by Paul2 ...and reminds them that the election was stolen... Not equivalent, because they didn't try a Dildonian Coup, but it's not like Democrats didn't have a very fat cry in 2016 and for years afterwards: WaPo - The Election was Stolen Hillary Clinton - We Still Don't Know What Happened (in 2016) and Would Have Argued About it but Lacked Mechanism Many Democrats Think 2016 Was Rigged Lot of very short memories about. See above re: bad winners.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

11th January 2021, 01:34 PM	#348
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Photo Contest Winner Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 47,996	Originally Posted by Azrael 5 ANyoen seen this? https://www.state.gov/biographies/donald-j-trump/ It states "Donald Trump Presidencey ended 1/11/2021 at 19:38(GMT time) Possibly some kind of webmaster optimism. Currently showing: Quote: We’re sorry, this site is currently experiencing technical difficulties. Please try again in a few moments. Reference ID:
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

11th January 2021, 01:36 PM	#349
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 23,324	Originally Posted by Delvo A better question would be exactly what anybody else has done that is sinking down to his level. No, that is a separate question. Hans
	__________________ Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.

11th January 2021, 01:39 PM	#350
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,903	The day the internet up and decided that anyone who opposed you was being a hypocrite meant you didn't do anything wrong was... well one of the days intellectual standards died.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

11th January 2021, 01:39 PM	#351
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,473	Originally Posted by The Atheist Not equivalent, because they didn't try a Dildonian Coup, but it's not like Democrats didn't have a very fat cry in 2016 and for years afterwards: WaPo - The Election was Stolen Hillary Clinton - We Still Don't Know What Happened (in 2016) and Would Have Argued About it but Lacked Mechanism Many Democrats Think 2016 Was Rigged Lot of very short memories about. See above re: bad winners. You're setting up a straw man. All (most of?) the other circumstances around Trump's high crimes are absent from 2016, and I never said that claiming an election was stolen is sufficient for impeachment, but it can be included as part of the reasons for impeachment. Especially when Trump's claims of fraud, etc., have been so thoroughly brought into court - 65 times! - to no avail.
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,473	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

11th January 2021, 01:40 PM	#352
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Suomi Posts: 20,222	Originally Posted by dudalb Trump just announced if he is impeached a second time, Rudy Giuliane will be his attonrey. Now I really hope it happens just for the entertainment value. I bagsy it's held at Four Seasons Total Landscaping.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

11th January 2021, 01:53 PM	#353
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Suomi Posts: 20,222	Originally Posted by turingtest It might be worth pointing out that nobody I have seen- here, in the media, or among GOP politicians- have suggested that the same "heal the divide" rationale for not impeaching Trump for inciting a mob to riot should also extend to not prosecuting the members of that mob for doing so. The guy who put his feet up on the desk in Pelosi's office, the idiot who carried off the lectern, the W. Va legislator, etc.- all these people face real consequences in the form of jail time, fines, loss of jobs, and so on.<snip> Trump's defence is that he has nothing to do with 'low class things'. Although we could bring in his taste in furniture as exhibit A.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

11th January 2021, 01:59 PM	#355
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,685	Originally Posted by dasmiller Meh. If Lindsey Graham's spine was made of spaghetti, it wouldn't even be al dente. Yup. Which is why he'd lack the courage to vote to convict, but equally I suspect he'd lack the courage to go on record as saying it's all fine... It would show up the GOP for what it is. I can imagine some handwringing, and statements that it wasn't the party of Nixon that they joined. Followed by them neither hindering nor helping the impeachment.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

11th January 2021, 02:03 PM	#356
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 29,903	Originally Posted by jimbob Yup. Which is why he'd lack the courage to vote to convict, but equally I suspect he'd lack the courage to go on record as saying it's all fine... Which is why for an Impeachment vote, Senators shouldn't be able to abstain or be absent. Everyone should have to go on record as to whether or not agree with the actions of President Trump and ******* own it. No passing the buck, no staying in the corner, no mush-mouth middle of the road passiveness.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."