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Tags michael jackson , sex scandals

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Old 1st July 2016, 01:01 AM   #401
cullennz
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Have you seen the pictures yourself? Can you actually create an argument without the use of Copy and Paste?

These are similar to the described ones and from the same book, what makes you believe that these are sexualized and used for sexual gratification?

Again NSFW labels for all of the below do apply.

http://www.yossimilo.com/artists/sim...arge-sj-16.jpg

http://journal-files7.foto.ua/upload...n-Johan-18.jpg

And how are they and worse than this one... or this one...
Art?

Lol
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st July 2016, 01:13 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Have you seen the pictures yourself? Can you actually create an argument without the use of Copy and Paste?

These are similar to the described ones and from the same book, what makes you believe that these are sexualized and used for sexual gratification?

Again NSFW labels for all of the below do apply.

http://www.yossimilo.com/artists/sim...arge-sj-16.jpg

http://journal-files7.foto.ua/upload...n-Johan-18.jpg

And how are they and worse than this one... or this one...
I don't want "not safe for work" images on my computer that your own link describes as sexualized young children.

I don't want to see kiddie porn and I don't want to see the artistic version (Sexualized young children). That Jackson had such a book (along with his other pervy behavior) is enough to move the dial for me.

Last edited by Fudbucker; 1st July 2016 at 01:15 AM.
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Old 1st July 2016, 03:20 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I don't want "not safe for work" images on my computer that your own link describes as sexualized young children.

I don't want to see kiddie porn and I don't want to see the artistic version (Sexualized young children). That Jackson had such a book (along with his other pervy behavior) is enough to move the dial for me.
I find it fascinating that Simen Johan, whose pictures we are debating, is alive and living in New York, and considered to be an artist of some repute, and NOT a paedophile.

However, a person who owned his work is suggested to have paedophillic tendencies simply because he owned his work.

EDIT: Also, since when did 'naked' automatically come to mean 'sexualized'? I'm not even getting into the fact that most of the images don't even show 'nakedness'.

Last edited by Dipayan; 1st July 2016 at 03:23 AM.
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Old 1st July 2016, 03:30 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by Dipayan View Post
I find it fascinating that Simen Johan, whose pictures we are debating, is alive and living in New York, and considered to be an artist of some repute, and NOT a paedophile.

However, a person who owned his work is suggested to have paedophillic tendencies simply because he owned his work.

EDIT: Also, since when did 'naked' automatically come to mean 'sexualized'? I'm not even getting into the fact that most of the images don't even show 'nakedness'.
If you can't see sexualisation in that supposed art you live in a different world to me
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st July 2016, 03:58 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
If you can't see sexualisation in that supposed art you live in a different world to me
Seriously?

Johan's images make me cringe. There is nothing sexy or stimulating about them.

I assume his goal was to spark debate and discussion about something, but I don't think it was sex or pedophilia.

I'm genuinely confused, and do not understand how they can be interpreted that way.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:02 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Seriously?

Johan's images make me cringe. There is nothing sexy or stimulating about them.

I assume his goal was to spark debate and discussion about something, but I don't think it was sex or pedophilia.

I'm genuinely confused, and do not understand how they can be interpreted that way.
I'm not arguing that lots of rich ponsey people find it arty.

I'm just saying to your average person it's exploiting little kids.

You find it arty. Awesome.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:17 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I'm not arguing that lots of rich ponsey people find it arty.

I'm just saying to your average person it's exploiting little kids.

You find it arty. Awesome.
Are you trying to say something to me about me? Your post feels a bit like a personal dig.

Yes; I like art. I draw, I paint, I hang out with artists.

I do not believe I have ever seen any real child porn, so I cannot honestly make any kind of informed comparison.

However, those who have seen genuine child porn, and know what it looks like, evaluated these images and decided they do not fit the legal definition.

I'm satisfied with that, unless/until someone convinces me the definition needs to be changed somehow.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:20 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Are you trying to say something to me about me? Your post feels a bit like a personal dig.

Yes; I like art. I draw, I paint, I hang out with artists.

I do not believe I have ever seen any real child porn, so I cannot honestly make any kind of informed comparison.

However, those who have seen genuine child porn, and know what it looks like, evaluated these images and decided they do not fit the legal definition.

I'm satisfied with that, unless/until someone convinces me the definition needs to be changed somehow.
Not at all.

I'm just saying for people buying it as art is laughable.

I'd be surprised if it met most safe filters
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:26 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Are you trying to say something to me about me? Your post feels a bit like a personal dig.

Yes; I like art. I draw, I paint, I hang out with artists.

I do not believe I have ever seen any real child porn, so I cannot honestly make any kind of informed comparison.

However, those who have seen genuine child porn, and know what it looks like, evaluated these images and decided they do not fit the legal definition.

I'm satisfied with that, unless/until someone convinces me the definition needs to be changed somehow.
Btw

Where are the reports to say experts in child porn thought it was fine?
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:27 AM   #410
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Quote:
I'm just saying for people buying it as art is laughable.
I have no idea how much of it he sells. I would guess his art depicting animals sells pretty well, though they would likely do better if had just stuck to them, as there may be those who don't want to feel their money is supporting his other efforts.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:31 AM   #411
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Quote:
Where are the reports to say experts in child porn thought it was fine?
I'll double check, but I'm pretty sure it was in the .pdf linked to last night. I read that whole thing, and searched for most of the books listed (although not the actual porn or the nudist stuff). I wanted to see for myself and make my own judgement.

I've seen other artists do stuff that to me are really pushing the limits, but none of their works were listed as being found in the raid.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:34 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I have no idea how much of it he sells. I would guess his art depicting animals sells pretty well, though they would likely do better if had just stuck to them, as there may be those who don't want to feel their money is supporting his other efforts.
I get it.

You think THAT is art.

I don't

Agree to disagree. Night.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:36 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Did you tell your son's friend "Look, if you love me you'll sleep in the bed'?

Would you let your son stay at Neverland ranch with MJ?
Quote the whole Bashir statement.... in context. You are being dishonest, and considering that you do this sort of cherry-picking regularly in other threads it makes me believe it is intentional. There was a lot more to even the scene you took that quote from. Plus there's the part that was edited out, as testified to by numerous people.... MJ slept on the floor.

I've probably got a few years on you but that sort of appeal to emotion and indignation doesn't work on me. I can remember, "Sure you want them to have the same restrooms and schools but tell me this, would you want your sister to marry one?" How about, in support of the Fuelair solution for rapists... "What if that was your sister or mother or daughter? You telling me you wouldn't want to kill the guy?"

But I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into the works, on you. If, like the parents of the accusers, my wife and I were present in the house and we both felt comfortable with Michael. Or if we knew him well? Yes, I might agree to it. When Marcello is in Bangkok with us, he share his male cousin Ma Wen's bed. Sixteen year old post-pubescent boy.

And my son's gorgeous. I live in the paedophile capital of the *********** universe. I watch over him like a mother hen, so I'm not some free-love crazy hippie.

But that brings us to the credibility factor. The "what if it was your kid" gambit says that you think the parents were either flesh-peddling their kids or immoral. Those are the parents that were the sources of his major cases. Did the "what if it was your kid" question occur to them before they decided to milk the million dollar goat for money? There's a great deal of evidence showing that it didn't.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:46 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Quote the whole Bashir statement.... in context. You are being dishonest, and considering that you do this sort of cherry-picking regularly in other threads it makes me believe it is intentional. There was a lot more to even the scene you took that quote from. Plus there's the part that was edited out, as testified to by numerous people.... MJ slept on the floor.

I've probably got a few years on you but that sort of appeal to emotion and indignation doesn't work on me. I can remember, "Sure you want them to have the same restrooms and schools but tell me this, would you want your sister to marry one?" How about, in support of the Fuelair solution for rapists... "What if that was your sister or mother or daughter? You telling me you wouldn't want to kill the guy?"

But I'm going to throw a monkey wrench into the works, on you. If, like the parents of the accusers, my wife and I were present in the house and we both felt comfortable with Michael. Or if we knew him well? Yes, I might agree to it. When Marcello is in Bangkok with us, he share his male cousin Ma Wen's bed. Sixteen year old post-pubescent boy.

And my son's gorgeous. I live in the paedophile capital of the *********** universe. I watch over him like a mother hen, so I'm not some free-love crazy hippie.

But that brings us to the credibility factor. The "what if it was your kid" gambit says that you think the parents were either flesh-peddling their kids or immoral. Those are the parents that were the sources of his major cases. Did the "what if it was your kid" question occur to them before they decided to milk the million dollar goat for money? There's a great deal of evidence showing that it didn't.
You mean when they realised the supa dupa pop star that manipulated everyone with his fame just turned out to be a kiddy fiddler?

Stupid star struck parents seemed to be his lure
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:51 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I get it.

You think THAT is art.

I don't

Agree to disagree. Night.
I fail to understand how my personal tastes fit into the picture at all?

Art is in the eye of the beholder, and it's value in the pocket of the buyer.

Whether or not I would buy a particular work has nothing whatsoever to do with this topic.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:51 AM   #416
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This whole thing is ignoring the fact he was a combination drug addicted weirdo who who knows what was going on
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:53 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I fail to understand how my personal tastes fit into the picture at all?

Art is in the eye of the beholder, and it's value in the pocket of the buyer.

Whether or not I would buy a particular work has nothing whatsoever to do with this topic.
So to him it may not have been art?
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:55 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Btw

Where are the reports to say experts in child porn thought it was fine?
How about the jury? The trial judge? The prosecution? In a criminal trial that's all the experts you need. Or does "what some guy in NZ has an icky feeling about" trump those sources.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:57 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
How about the jury? The trial judge? The prosecution? In a criminal trial that's all the experts you need. Or does "what some guy in NZ has an icky feeling about trump those sources".
Ahh cool

Sorry. Forgot

The multi million dollar legal team
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:59 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
This whole thing is ignoring the fact he was a combination drug addicted weirdo who who knows what was going on
This needs to be preserved for posterity. It really is the ne plus ultra of your "case".

Rates right up there with "dudes in dresses".
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:03 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
This needs to be preserved for posterity. It really is the ne plus ultra of your "case".

Rates right up there with "dudes in dresses".
Don't care about dudes in dresses

A drug addicted bloke with a fetish for kiddy porn who convinces little kids to sleep in his bed due to his fame, however I find hard to take as innocent
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:03 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Ahh cool

Sorry. Forgot

The multi million dollar legal team
Try again. The PROSECUTION. The JUDGE. The JURY.

You will find that the American trial system is similar to New Zealand's. Those parties are not part of the multi-million dollar legal team. The judge made about 85k a year. The prosecutor a similar amount. The jurors made about fifteen dollars a day.

What part of "the jury found him innocent" are you having trouble with? The judge made the prosecution sign-off on a clarifying statement that "No Child Porn" was found.
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:05 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So to him it may not have been art?
Whom is him? MJ? (shrug) Who knows?

I used to read Ann Rice. I loved her early works. When she came out with a new book, I bought it. Then her work changed, and while I continued to buy them, I ended up with several that took me years to read. I ended up owning a couple I thought were nothing but trash.

I can't speak for MJ or his tastes. I have no idea what he thought was art, and the best clues available now are the lists other people of compiled of the stuff he liked.

ETA

Besides his own art, of course, and I haven't really paid a lot of attention to it.
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:06 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Don't care about dudes in dresses

A drug addicted bloke with a fetish for kiddy porn who convinces little kids to sleep in his bed due to his fame, however I find hard to take as innocent
Good thing you weren't on the jury, then. But... as I know you're a relatively sentient being, I'd be curious what you'd say if you actually read the trial transcripts. A shame you're to busy wrapping yourself in your cloak of "well, it just seems to me".
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:08 AM   #425
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Actually, I should amend my statement a bit: I enjoyed the first books of hers I read. I don't have any idea what timeline she wrote a lot of the others on, as I just bought them when I happened to see them.
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:09 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Good thing you weren't on the jury, then. But... as I know you're a relatively sentient being, I'd be curious what you'd say if you actually read the trial transcripts. A shame you're to busy wrapping yourself in your cloak of "well, it just seems to me".
I gave up after the million dollar legal team started manipulation
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:17 AM   #427
cullennz
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I'll ask a simple question

How does a drug addicted supa dupa star with all his weird foibles and addiction to kiddy porn/art

Trump kids who slept in his bed
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:20 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I'll ask a simple question

How does a drug addicted supa dupa star with all his weird foibles and addiction to kiddy porn/art

Trump kids who slept in his bed
He doesn't.

However, it remains unproven he did anything illegal.
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:26 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
He doesn't.

However, it remains unproven he did anything illegal.
And that is fine if you go purely legal with his million dollar team.

But don't expect others to not realise druggie dude with the fetish didn't do nasty stuff
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:40 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
And that is fine if you go purely legal with his million dollar team.

But don't expect others to not realise believe in spite of the "not guilty" verdict druggie dude with the fetish didn't do nasty stuff
Fixed it.

No; I don't expect others to change their minds once they're made up. I've been hanging 'round forums for nearly 20 years, and the number of times I've seen that happen can be counted on my fingers.
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:43 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Art?

Lol
Yes, even if you don't like it, that doesn't make it not art.
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:53 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I don't want "not safe for work" images on my computer that your own link describes as sexualized young children.

I don't want to see kiddie porn and I don't want to see the artistic version (Sexualized young children). That Jackson had such a book (along with his other pervy behavior) is enough to move the dial for me.
If you are unwilling to view the images, then any comment you make on them is invalid, you are merely parroting other people's opinion, opinion you have no idea as to if they are right or wrong. I also suspect that many art historians would find your belief and your declaration that the painting Saint John The Baptist and Infant Christ Playing In a landscape is Kiddie Porn all without even viewing it, to be rather laughable.
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:54 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
If you can't see sexualisation in that supposed art you live in a different world to me
What about it is sexualization? If you could explain your perspective that might help me.
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:57 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Art?

Lol
BTW, how about answering the question posed, how are the first two images worse than the second two?
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Old 1st July 2016, 06:10 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I gave up after the million dollar legal team started manipulation
Well, there ya go. We now have a starting point. On what day of testimony or of the trial do you first find this manipulation? Of course, you might need an understanding that "manipulation" is not actually a legal term and that in the US, like in NZ, it is the defense's job to put on a vigorous defense for the accused.

So where does this "manipulation" start? Please cite date and approximate time so we can all learn together.
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Old 1st July 2016, 01:25 PM   #436
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Isn't it more likely that MJ was trying to recreate the childhood he never had? I've read about several child stars that never got a chance to just be kids. From what I've seen and read about NeverLand, most kids would love to go there. Besides the outside fun stuff, there were video and arcade games, plus toys galore! All things that any child would be thrilled to play with. Most young boys wouldn't want girls around cuz cooties, ya know.
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Old 1st July 2016, 01:52 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
....the mountain of evidence that got him off in the trial.
Eww.
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Old 1st July 2016, 03:02 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by KatieG View Post
Isn't it more likely that MJ was trying to recreate the childhood he never had? I've read about several child stars that never got a chance to just be kids. From what I've seen and read about NeverLand, most kids would love to go there. Besides the outside fun stuff, there were video and arcade games, plus toys galore! All things that any child would be thrilled to play with. Most young boys wouldn't want girls around cuz cooties, ya know.
And sleeping in Mike's bed with all his porn
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st July 2016, 03:13 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
If you are unwilling to view the images, then any comment you make on them is invalid, you are merely parroting other people's opinion, opinion you have no idea as to if they are right or wrong. I also suspect that many art historians would find your belief and your declaration that the painting Saint John The Baptist and Infant Christ Playing In a landscape is Kiddie Porn all without even viewing it, to be rather laughable.
Uh, it was from a link you gave me: http://metapsychology.mentalhelp.net...e=book&id=1811

Are the links you provide right or wrong? From YOUR link:

Many of the manipulated photographic pictures portray sexualized young children.

In "Untitled #79. 1999" a girl with a baby doll-like face but very styled hair is reclining in a park, exposing adult breasts.

These are not pretty images, and their flirting with taboos of child sexuality, disturbance, and death place Johan's work in the realm of a rather adolescent surrealism.

Are these accurate reviews or not? If accurate, thanks, more evidence that MJ was a creepy perv. If not accurate, why on Earth would you link to it?
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Old 1st July 2016, 03:36 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Well, there ya go. We now have a starting point. On what day of testimony or of the trial do you first find this manipulation? Of course, you might need an understanding that "manipulation" is not actually a legal term and that in the US, like in NZ, it is the defense's job to put on a vigorous defense for the accused.

So where does this "manipulation" start? Please cite date and approximate time so we can all learn together.
You miss understand me.

They aren't million dollar lawyers for nothing

They just did what they are paid to do
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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