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Tags michael jackson , sex scandals

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Old 1st July 2016, 03:57 PM   #441
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And can we stop acting like a judgment from 12 schleps is proof of anything? It's only proof of what those 12 people think. How many people have been released from deathrow? Over 150 now? Does anyone have the slightest doubt that OJ murdered Nicole and Ron?
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:01 PM   #442
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Anything's possible.

But beyond that, you need specifics.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:02 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
And can we stop acting like a judgment from 12 schleps is proof of anything? It's only proof of what those 12 people think. How many people have been released from deathrow? Over 150 now? Does anyone have the slightest doubt that OJ murdered Nicole and Ron?
Yeah! Why trust the judgment of twelve people who've looked at evidence when we could just go by the gut feelings of randos on the internet?
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:08 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yeah! Why trust the judgment of twelve people who've looked at evidence when we could just go by the gut feelings of randos on the internet?
I wish I had your faith in our justice system. Those without the capital get the punishment.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:22 PM   #445
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I wish I had your faith in our justice system. Those without the capital get the punishment.
I have more faith in the justice system than I have in your prejudices, yes.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:29 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I have more faith in the justice system than I have in your prejudices, yes.
You think I think the way I do because MJ was black? That has nothing to do with it.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:29 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Uh, it was from a link you gave me: http://metapsychology.mentalhelp.net...e=book&id=1811

Are the links you provide right or wrong?
The links I gave where to the Amazon listing (Do you believe that Amazon would sell books of child porn?) and to a reviewer (Do you think that main stream reviewers would review a book of kiddie porn?) Just because I linked to it doesn't mean I have any belief on the accuracy of the reviewer, merely that they reviewed the book.

Quote:
From YOUR link:

Many of the manipulated photographic pictures portray sexualized young children.

In "Untitled #79. 1999" a girl with a baby doll-like face but very styled hair is reclining in a park, exposing adult breasts.

These are not pretty images, and their flirting with taboos of child sexuality, disturbance, and death place Johan's work in the realm of a rather adolescent surrealism.

Are these accurate reviews or not? If accurate, thanks, more evidence that MJ was a creepy perv. If not accurate, why on Earth would you link to it?
Having viewed a number of the photos I'd say that they were right, in a way, but not the way that you believe it and continue to take it. This is why you belief is not skeptical. You made up your mind without seeing the evidence for yourself, then you blindly parrot other people's words believing that they back you up. This is no better than those that parrot the Truther Movement's arguments about 9/11 being an inside job, or Bill Kaysing and co's arguments that Apollo was hoaxed. You are not being skeptical, in fact you are being as far from skeptical as it is possible to get.

For instance, the photo you steadfastly refuse to view, even though Google Images will find it happily display it (Do you believe that Goggle would allow this if it was Kiddie Porn?)and I also believe that posting a link to kiddie porn would get me banned without even a warning (Do you believe I'd be that stupid?) is of a topless girl playing hula hoop. Is there a sexual nature to it, yes, a) she's topless, and b) the hoop appears to have left marks on her that an adult would likely associate with bondage. Is it an image that you would use to get off with? Not unless you were a really warped individual, and I mean far more warped that just into preteen girls, I mean messed up in the head to the point you are psychopathic. Though it has a sexual nature, the image is not sexy in any way, it is certain not porn in any way shape or form. Porn is clearly designed to titillate and arouse, these images are far from that, they are disturbing and thought provoking. The only thing that they have in common with Kiddie porn is that they have naked children in them, and unless you are planning to argue that any naked child is kiddie porn, at which point you will have to also argue that the paintings I posted of the Christ Child are also kiddie porn.

Two me, I'd say that the painting I posted of the Baby Christ being breast feed is far more of the sexual nature designed to titillate as it not only shows a full frontal naked child, but an adult female with a bared breast and an erect nipple, with the child about to feed from it, yet that painting is well and truly considered both art, and acceptable. If I wanted to manipulate things as the Prosecution did though, I could describe it as a painting with both adult female and male child full and partial nudity in which the naked male child appears to be arousing the adult female. Makes it sound a whole lot worse right? I mean, anyone with that painting needs to be arrested when you put it that way right?

The fact of the matter is that until you get off your high horse and unblock your mind, admitting that perhaps you don't know it all, and actually look at the evidence, you are going to be locked inside of your belief zone and from someone that claims to be a skeptic, that is a really bad place to be.

ETA: I'd also note that even the prosecution declared these books not to be Kiddie Porn, so you really are on your own on this one.
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Last edited by PhantomWolf; 1st July 2016 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:30 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You think I think the way I do because MJ was black? That has nothing to do with it.
Skin color isn't the only source of prejudice, it's just one of the most common.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:31 PM   #449
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OK, I'll look at the photos.

ETA: I would be in big trouble if that was found on my school computer, but those aren't beyond the pale. The first one DOES look like something a pedophile would have in his "collection".

As far as the link to the book you provided, I assume if the reviewer thinks some of the pictures of the kids are sexually stylized, that's probably accurate, and he went into great detail describing some of the pictures. Based on his descriptions, it sounds like something a pedophile would enjoy.

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Old 1st July 2016, 04:36 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Skin color isn't the only source of prejudice, it's just one of the most common.
Then what other prejudice would be at play? I might have a stronger than normal predisposition to view men as pervs. I work in a field that attracts them (education). My own District has had two cases of teachers sleeping with underage kids.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:36 PM   #451
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
And can we stop acting like a judgment from 12 schleps is proof of anything? It's only proof of what those 12 people think. How many people have been released from deathrow? Over 150 now? Does anyone have the slightest doubt that OJ murdered Nicole and Ron?
Yes because some anonymous guy on the internet who steadfastly refuses to look at the evidence because he "Knows" he is right, is a much better judge than 12 people that looked at detail at all the evidence that was provided.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:42 PM   #452
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If those images were child porn, MJ definitely would have been charged with it. He wasn't charged with child porn because the prosecutor, who wanted to nail MJ badly, knew that they were not child porn.
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:43 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Yes because some anonymous guy on the internet who steadfastly refuses to look at the evidence because he "Knows" he is right, is a much better judge than 12 people that looked at detail at all the evidence that was provided.
I made up my mind years ago, when MJ admitted to sleeping with boys. If any guy admits to such behavior, I would think they're a pedophile (unless it's a case of extreme poverty, or immigrant with totally different cultural mores).
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Old 1st July 2016, 04:45 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
If those images were child porn, MJ definitely would have been charged with it. He wasn't charged with child porn because the prosecutor, who wanted to nail MJ badly, knew that they were not child porn.
Technically, they're probably not. You could probably find pics from nudist families that aren't technically child porn, but they still show naked kids.
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:32 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I made up my mind years ago, when MJ admitted to sleeping with boys. If any guy admits to such behavior, I would think they're a pedophile (unless it's a case of extreme poverty, or immigrant with totally different cultural mores).
Sleeping in the same bed as a young boy = Pedophile... wow.

Why do you assume that is a adult male sleeps in the same bed as someone else, that equates to sex or sexual attraction?
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:34 PM   #456
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Technically, they're probably not. You could probably find pics from nudist families that aren't technically child porn, but they still show naked kids.
Yes we get it, you still want to try and conflate nudity with sexual depravity...
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:40 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You think I think the way I do because MJ was black? That has nothing to do with it.
You don't know the literal meaning of the word 'prejudice' and you think you're qualified to judge someone?
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:46 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Sleeping in the same bed as a young boy = Pedophile... wow.

Why do you assume that is a adult male sleeps in the same bed as someone else, that equates to sex or sexual attraction?
I don't equate it, but MJ admitting to sleeping with little boys raises the probability to something like 80%.

A male, in America, (esp. a rich one) just doesn't do that, unless they're perverted.
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:48 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You don't know the literal meaning of the word 'prejudice' and you think you're qualified to judge someone?
OK, you tell me. What's the prejudice at work?
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:52 PM   #460
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Also the book being discussed(Simen Johan's Room To Play) was discovered in a sealed package with two other books in the cellar of the arcade area, not in the main house. Jackson may not have even known it was there and it may not have been his.


Or it was so dementedly perverted he had to hide it! One or the other.
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:53 PM   #461
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
OK, you tell me. What's the prejudice at work?
Try sounding it out with phonics! 'Pre' means what? 'Judice' means what?

For those under the age of seven:

'before judging'. I.e. judging before hearing the facts or looking at the evidence.
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Old 1st July 2016, 05:56 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Try sounding it out with phonics! 'Pre' means what? 'Judice' means what?

For those under the age of seven:

'before judging'. I.e. judging before hearing the facts or looking at the evidence.
I made my judgement years ago based on one fact: MJ likes to sleep with little boys.

Am I wrong? Are there other facts that might mitigate a rich man's predilection of wanting young boys to sleep with him?
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Old 1st July 2016, 06:07 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I made my judgement years ago
The very definition of prejudice.
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Old 1st July 2016, 06:10 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The very definition of prejudice.
No, it's not. It's based on the fact that a grown man admitted to sleeping with little boys. That is evidence, whether you like it or not. Most grown men do not engage in such behavior. I don't. Do you?

Are you trying to have a serious discussion about prejudice, or just trying to be pithy.
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Old 1st July 2016, 07:21 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Most grown men do not engage in such behavior. I don't. Do you?
Here's a serious question for you to consider. Why don't they? If it was an adult woman, would the same reasoning apply?

Quote:
Are you trying to have a serious discussion about prejudice, or just trying to be pithy.
Answer the above question seriously, and you might understand his point.
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Old 1st July 2016, 07:33 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
No, it's not. It's based on the fact that a grown man admitted to sleeping with little boys. That is evidence, whether you like it or not. Most grown men do not engage in such behavior. I don't. Do you?

Are you trying to have a serious discussion about prejudice, or just trying to be pithy.
Whether you think your prejudice was founded on a valid concern, which is a dubious claim at best, it is the very definition of prejudice. You made up your mind years ago based on the twisted wording "sleeps with" of gossip rags.

Please provide evidence that Jackson slept with little boys. Evidence that hasn't been refuted would be best, but if you provide any evidence we can help you refute it, yourself.

"Most men don't engage in such behavior...." We've been there and I gave an innocent example of how you could be wrong. Is that really beyond possibility to you... that you could be wrong, that you're basing all of this on a visceral reaction, the "Eeew Factor" as I call it?
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Old 1st July 2016, 07:45 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You miss understand me.

They aren't million dollar lawyers for nothing

They just did what they are paid to do
I guess I did misunderstand you.

When you told DragonLady that you were going to look into some of the evidence she provided and weren't in your thread for a few days, I thought you were actually examining the evidence. Silly me.

When you said you gave up on the trial transcripts when you saw the million dollar legal team's manipulations, you meant "I didn't read the trial transcripts because I know better and I'd like to characterize their defense as manipulation because it sounds like I know what I'm talking about".

You haven't read the trial transcripts. You haven't examined the evidence. Why should anyone take you seriously? We might as well be discussing the case with Lucy the Duck Girl.
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Old 1st July 2016, 08:25 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I guess I did misunderstand you.

When you told DragonLady that you were going to look into some of the evidence she provided and weren't in your thread for a few days, I thought you were actually examining the evidence. Silly me.

When you said you gave up on the trial transcripts when you saw the million dollar legal team's manipulations, you meant "I didn't read the trial transcripts because I know better and I'd like to characterize their defense as manipulation because it sounds like I know what I'm talking about".

You haven't read the trial transcripts. You haven't examined the evidence. Why should anyone take you seriously? We might as well be discussing the case with Lucy the Duck Girl.
The transcripts are extremely one sided from the links

I am still looking at other less biased sites.

In between porn nut Mikey my nuts are different colours. Hop into bed little kid Jackson
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Old 1st July 2016, 08:29 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The transcripts are extremely one sided from the links

I am still looking at other less biased sites.
You don't know what a transcript is, do you? They appear one sided because that's how the trial was. The prosecution had no case. It tore up faster than a Kleenex in a snot storm. You are complaining that reality doesn't match your expectations, so you want a less real version that will suit you better!
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Old 1st July 2016, 08:48 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The transcripts are extremely one sided from the links

I am still looking at other less biased sites.

In between porn nut Mikey my nuts are different colours. Hop into bed little kid Jackson
What? The transcripts are THE TRANSCRIPTS. They are every word spoken in the trial, taken down by the court stenographer. How the hell do you find that biased? Because it doesn't reach your "Eeeew, he's a homo paedo" conclusion.
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Old 1st July 2016, 08:55 PM   #471
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Here you go. Since you think the website is important, here's a link provided by a "guilty" site.

http://www.mjfacts.com/2005-michael-...l-transcripts/


Have at it. Show us the manipulation. Show us where even "sleeps with" is given credibility. Show us where they verified "child porn". Show us that you at least have read the evidence.

And this **** is easy to find. You haven't bothered looking for it because you simply know you're right. I knew I was right, too. Before I actually started looking into the actual facts.

Show of hands... Innocenters: Who else was originally willing to believe the allegations? I admit that I was. The "He's a weirdo, talks real delicate, must be a homo" meme was very common through the 80s and 90s.
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Old 1st July 2016, 09:36 PM   #472
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Show of hands... Innocenters: Who else was originally willing to believe the allegations? I admit that I was. The "He's a weirdo, talks real delicate, must be a homo" meme was very common through the 80s and 90s.
I found him extremely off-putting for a long time before the accusations started being made, and there's no doubt that I still think he likely had an aberrant sexual predilection...mainly, admittedly because of some degree of prejudice generated by my perception of him. However, I also know that nobody was able to prove anything criminal despite years of trying. Even this stupid thread was kicked off with pure innuendo.

Being certain of his guilt should be impossible for anyone claiming to be a skeptic.

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Old 1st July 2016, 10:14 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
[snip] However, I also know that nobody was able to prove anything criminal despite years of trying. Even this stupid thread was kicked off with pure innuendo.

Being certain of his guilt should be impossible for anyone claiming to be a skeptic.
This exactly! I personally believed that MJ was very odd with serious emotional issues. When I heard of the accusations I thought, "Sure, that doesn't surprise me." But when I learned of the actual facts in the case it became clear to me that the case was based on a house of cards fueled by the tabloid press and by the usual desire of society to believe the worse of people who are strange compared to the norm.

I don't know what MJ's thoughts were, anymore than anyone else's, but I don't see any evidence that he did anything criminally wrong.
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Old 2nd July 2016, 12:18 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Show of hands... Innocenters: Who else was originally willing to believe the allegations? I admit that I was. The "He's a weirdo, talks real delicate, must be a homo" meme was very common through the 80s and 90s.
I thought there could be something to it until the trial. Once that happened I was like, what? They don't have a thing.
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Old 2nd July 2016, 12:20 AM   #475
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Quote:
Show of hands... Innocenters: Who else was originally willing to believe the allegations? I admit that I was. The "He's a weirdo, talks real delicate, must be a homo" meme was very common through the 80s and 90s.
Yes; I was willing to believe them at first, too. I thought, "Wow, all that money to hide behind! All those people willing to help him do terrible things and cover them up because he can pay so much."

But somewhere early on I started following the case -just as a distraction, I guess, because I usually don't follow child abuse cases at all. But when I really started reading the reports and the tabloids and listening to the news about it, I began to realize there was something really fishy about it. That initial impression only grew with time, and when the first accuser didn't want anything to do with the criminal trial, I was certain he was just being extorted.

But when it happened again, I though "Oh, wow...he must've really been doing this all along! And we weren't able to stop him!!!" I started paying more attention just as I had before, but again...rinse and repeat, as the charges mounted and the timelines changed and the goalposts moved, I became more and more skeptical. When he was acquitted I wasn't surprised.
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Old 2nd July 2016, 02:35 AM   #476
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Skeptics, one and all. Perhaps some other posters will learn by example.


To Checkmite,
I disagree with your conclusions but I will admit that you've actually put some thought to it and have what I would say are coherent reasons for your own take on this. [You're wrong, of course, but you at least put some work into it.]
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Old 2nd July 2016, 04:29 AM   #477
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Count me in as someone who believed the allegations, and just knew he was guilty even after the trial. I was never into Michael Jackson, so I didn't really follow the trial. I just read the headlines and the occasional article. Jackson was a weirdo and there's no smoke without fire, right?

Years later I actually looked into the case and the evidence presented at the trial. It paints a completely different picture. I don't have much doubt now that he was innocent of the charges, and that there were people looking for a large check.
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Old 2nd July 2016, 04:44 AM   #478
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Show of hands... Innocenters: Who else was originally willing to believe the allegations? I admit that I was. The "He's a weirdo, talks real delicate, must be a homo" meme was very common through the 80s and 90s.
I'm not an "innocenter," but I do not believe his guilt was established. Call me a "not-guiltyer."
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Old 2nd July 2016, 04:54 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
This exactly! I personally believed that MJ was very odd with serious emotional issues. When I heard of the accusations I thought, "Sure, that doesn't surprise me." But when I learned of the actual facts in the case it became clear to me that the case was based on a house of cards fueled by the tabloid press and by the usual desire of society to believe the worse of people who are strange compared to the norm.

I don't know what MJ's thoughts were, anymore than anyone else's, but I don't see any evidence that he did anything criminally wrong.
He was a grown man sleeping with little kids and a massive porn collection
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Old 2nd July 2016, 05:19 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
He was a grown man sleeping with little kids and a massive porn collection
You've finished reading up on the transcripts have you?
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