ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old Today, 01:04 AM   #1041
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,309
Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
I went back and checked and you are correct:

Linky.
Indeed, fair enough observation.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:11 AM   #1042
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,577
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
That's really all that #metoo is doing. The woman who made a #metoo disclosure about Aziz Ansari for instance, explicitly said that it wasn't rape. In fact despite the gusting of complaints that #metoo is complaining that "every little thing is now rape" and unfairly tarring men as rapists, I haven't actually seen any of the accusers calling something a sexual assault that wouldn't legally meet the definition. To wit: they are accusing the men they accuse of being crass horndogs and aholes, not rapists. People are protesting the drawing of a false equivalency that isn't actually being drawn.



The fact is, if it is genuinely true that there is an epidemic of men who are such complete idiots that they are incapable of parsing nonverbal cues that a woman does not want to have sex, then a conversation needs to be had about behavior which isn't rape, but is rather just crass or ahole-ish in nature. Women need to be able to bring up specific examples as a way of saying men, don't do that without being dismissed as "going too far", or "trying to kill romance", or "calling bad dates 'rape'".
Some men are crass and ahole-ish but that doesn’t put them on the same level as the rapists and harassers. If women want to have a conversation about the a-holes, that’s perfectly fine, but it shouldn’t be in the same conversation where they are outing the rapists/harassers.

Why not? Because when you lump “bad dates” in with rape, there’s a danger of diluting the message about the really off-limits behavior. No one thinks that what Weinstein did (allegedly and for example) is ever acceptable under any circumstances. It’s a long-standing problem in Hollywood that needs to be addressed. But what Ansari allegedly did is much more of a grey area. It’s possible to view it from a standpoint where he did nothing wrong even if the encounter went 100% as described. She gave him a BJ; she just didn’t like his more aggressive behavior. He apologized when she called him on it.

If you want to address the Weinstein-like problems, I’m behind you 100%. But leave the grey areas out of the #metoo movement or don’t be sad when no one takes it seriously anymore.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:19 AM   #1043
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,577
Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
I went back and checked and you are correct:







Linky.


I have to object to the use of sexual assault in this way. She had an encounter which she felt bad about afterwards. Are all such encounters sexual assault? If she willingly engages in some sexual activity with him, rebuffs others and he doesn’t force her to do anything, then I don’t see how an assault occurred. It was an awkward sexual encounter that a bunch of her “woke” (boy do I hate that word) friends convinced her was assault.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:29 AM   #1044
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,309
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Some men are crass and ahole-ish but that doesn’t put them on the same level as the rapists and harassers. If women want to have a conversation about the a-holes, that’s perfectly fine, but it shouldn’t be in the same conversation where they are outing the rapists/harassers.
As an aside, it's my impression that another key reason that #metoo exists is because women are growing increasingly tired of being told when they should and should not discuss these issues, and how precisely they should be discussing them; in part because decades of following these rules set before them by others have resulted in no substantial addressing of the problem.

Put simply, if women would as you suggest "have a conversation about the a-holes" completely separate from the one about more violent sexual misconduct, the former conversation would simply be ignored as it always has been before now, and would accomplish nothing.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002

Last edited by Checkmite; Today at 01:32 AM.
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 03:28 AM   #1045
baron
Philosopher
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,149
Note how it's all about the women. I guess Kevin Spacey's victims will need to wait another 20 years before their conversation is not 'ignored'.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 04:43 AM   #1046
Delvo
الشيطان الأبيض
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 7,077
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No one thinks that what Weinstein did (allegedly and for example) is ever acceptable under any circumstances... But what Ansari allegedly did is much more of a grey area.
Only as a legal technicality, not in real-world terms.That's the problem with this whole concept of a gray area that people have been talking about where someone shows signs of not wanting to participate but doesn't say no. "I wasn't told no" is a legal defense, but it still means ignoring the other person's state of mind, which still means knowing you're really doing something unwanted anyway. It's doing the same crime, just knowing you can get away with it on a technicality. (It reminds me of entrapment in that sense: I've never been very impressed with "yes I did it but only because the cops gave me an opportunity to do it" as a defense. The rule against entrapment serves a purpose in the legal system and needs to be there, but whenever it's invoked, it's still for a criminal who actually did the crime.)
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 05:14 AM   #1047
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 40,661
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No. Nothing like that. But you knew that.
Unless they clearly say no, it can all be just chalked up to miss read signals and isn't a big deal. The onus is on them to clearly articulate their view of being groped on trains.

Why is this so different? It is the same reasoning and rational in a slightly different situation. Clearly any prolonged groping on a public train is consensual because if it wasn't she would say something.

Or you have accept that people sometimes freeze up and don't respond in sexual assault and that can not be taken as consent.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 05:21 AM   #1048
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 69,191
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Unless they clearly say no, it can all be just chalked up to miss read signals and isn't a big deal. The onus is on them to clearly articulate their view of being groped on trains.

Why is this so different? It is the same reasoning and rational in a slightly different situation. Clearly any prolonged groping on a public train is consensual because if it wasn't she would say something.

Or you have accept that people sometimes freeze up and don't respond in sexual assault and that can not be taken as consent.
I'm with Joe. You're doing a fine job of making your side of the argument sound ridiculous. So much so that one begins to wonder if you're not on the other team.
__________________
渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 05:24 AM   #1049
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 40,661
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How is that necessarily a screw up?

If I meet a stranger, and she successfully sells I receive the impression that she's DTF, to the point of actually effing, without me ever catching on that she's hating every minute of it, that sounds like a complete win for me. I don't know if it's a win for her, but that's her business, not mine.
Fixed it for you.

For all the complaints about needing to be a mind reader, you seem to have no problem reading her mind about her intentions here instead of your reactions.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

Last edited by ponderingturtle; Today at 05:30 AM.
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:55 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.