ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Facebook incidents , Facebook issues , free speech issues , internet incidents

Reply
Old 17th May 2019, 04:34 PM   #641
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,727
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Your point isn't much of one. Perhaps if instead of irrelevant examples you posted examples of things FB has banned that you don't think they should have?
Is that it ? Is that the only thing you can come up with to defend this incitement to mass murder ? No "It was a holocaust joke" ? No "it's OK because it's coming from the left and we're all oppressed and fighting back with the meager weapons we have at our disposal" ? Nothing about NAZIS !!!111!!1! ?

Damn, I'm disappointed.

We'll just chalk that up as another vote to gas the people you perceive as racists then.
Stout is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 07:19 PM   #642
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,633
@Stout

If you are familiar with uke2se's posting style, then you'll know that "the final solution to the racist question" is pretty obviously his dark humour coming to the fore - again.


Your poutrage is just another example of the duplicity of the right, where they are only ever "just joking"TM when they are called on their crap, but the left never are.
__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!

Last edited by smartcooky; 17th May 2019 at 07:25 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 07:29 PM   #643
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,898
"Poutrage" I love it.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 07:52 PM   #644
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,727
So a vote for "just joking" and dark humour. Good, good.

It's getting kind of hard to maintain that moral superiority angle though, with jokes like that being excused but if all I need to do to get away with telling Holocaust jokes is put on a Che Guevara T-shirt then I might just have a new standup routine.
Stout is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 08:00 PM   #645
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,642
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Because in "Free Speech Racist" world there is no nuance. From the point of view of scumbag racists, bigots and conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones, a privately owned platform deciding that they no longer want to host them = censorship.

To racists, bigots and conspiracy theorists, "Censorship" means any reduction their Deity-given right to say what they like, where they like, when they like, and to spread their vile filth.
Reverse the targets and your post is shockingly Jones esque.

You don't mind people kicking folk in the nuts, you just want to be the one kicking.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 10:10 PM   #646
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,436
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If you are familiar with uke2se's posting style, then you'll know that "the final solution to the racist question" is pretty obviously his dark humour coming to the fore - again.
I suspected that "final solution" was dark humour but I wasn't aware that uke2se was fond of Poe'ing.

Ironically, that kind of posting might not pass muster on Facebook. In fact, it might even see him subjected to a "final solution" himself if some posters here had their way. Then again, probably not since it only matters who the hatred is directed against around here.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by psionl0; 17th May 2019 at 10:13 PM.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 10:26 PM   #647
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,411
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Reverse the targets and your post is shockingly Jones esque.

You don't mind people kicking folk in the nuts, you just want to be the one kicking.
This.

The lack of self awareness of some posters is amazing. They have abandoned universal values for tribalism, and yet tell themselves that they are the good guys.
Giz is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2019, 03:21 AM   #648
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,633
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Reverse the targets and your post is shockingly Jones esque.
Horsecock! The targets are the same, left or right.

I'm just has happy to see Louis Farrakhan and Antifa deplatformed as am to see Alex Jones and Nazis deplatformed. I'm politically left of centre - I regard the extreme loony left as counterproductive and an embarrassment.

Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You don't mind people kicking folk in the nuts, you just want to be the one kicking.
You think "Facebook doesn't want to host your vile racism = Facebook kicking you in the nuts"

Got it!
__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!

Last edited by smartcooky; 18th May 2019 at 03:24 AM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2019, 02:02 AM   #649
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,783
Looks like a couple of racists got triggered by my little joke. How drole.

ETA: For those who need the joke explained, I used a Nazi-expression to demand the wholesale murder of all racists in an expression of what the Nazi-apologists would call free speech. As we can see, they didn't like it much. The difference between me and Nazis who use the expression to demand the murder of minorities is that I was joking.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

Last edited by uke2se; 20th May 2019 at 02:09 AM.
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2019, 03:44 AM   #650
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,604
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This.

The lack of self awareness of some posters is amazing. They have abandoned universal values for tribalism, and yet tell themselves that they are the good guys.
What choice is there, really?

For argument's sake, let's say you have a not-so-original business idea and buy a digital billboard on Times Square. You then let people put messages on the billboard via a website, interspersed with commercials.

I start posting MY content on YOUR platform, Giz Inc.

Only, my content is Holocaust denial, the charge that the Sandy Hook parents are crisis actors (along with their addresses) and that Rocco's Pizza place is holding kids captive in the basement (with address) and that Martin Luther King was a Jewish pawn.

What company policy are you as CEO of Giz Inc going to implement?

On the one hand, you own some of the most prominent advertising space in the country and it plays a big role in the national conversation. So you feel you should stick to principles of free speech. And people love the drama of the argument-counterargument that is giving your billboard a lot of attention.

On the other hand, some mentally ill person seems to have just shot up Rocco's Pizza with an M-16 while ranting about paedophiles and your billboard. And the phones are ringing off the hook with lawyers and what not, and your receptionist really, really, really wants you to take this call from this CNN producer and the whole office is staring at you, wondering how you're going to handle this.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2019, 08:08 AM   #651
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,930
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Horsecock! The targets are the same, left or right.

I'm just has happy to see Louis Farrakhan and Antifa deplatformed as am to see Alex Jones and Nazis deplatformed. I'm politically left of centre - I regard the extreme loony left as counterproductive and an embarrassment.
sigh...

Yet again.

Louis Farrakhan. Very racist. Very anti-Semitic. Also strongly anti-LGBT. Anti-abortion. Backs all of the above through conspiracy theory. Strongly religious. Favors a rigidly, de jure patriarchal state where women stay at home and follow the instructions of the men in their lives. Loudly champions business ownership. Con man with many land ownings. Prone to telling lies. Fantasies about returning to an entirely mythical previous state before "those people" (whites, controlled by the Jews - because it's always the Jews with these sorts) ruined everything.

Make him a dimwitted white slob, and you've basically got the current US president, or possibly Alex Jones. The guy's actually far right.

(It's harder to discuss Antifa, since they aren't actually an organized group, but rather a bunch of groups and individuals with wildly differing goals, in a momentary marriage of convenience.)
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2019, 09:34 AM   #652
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,436
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
On the other hand, some mentally ill person seems to have just shot up Rocco's Pizza with an M-16 while ranting about paedophiles and your billboard.
Although uke2se is obviously doing a Poe, you seem to actually believe what you are posting. Are you really running with the idea that if we sanitize free speech enough, nobody will do wrong?

Have you considered the possibility that while some might be influenced to do wrong when reading the "wrong" opinions, others who might have done wrong could be influenced to change their mind about doing wrong because of exposure to counter opinions?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by psionl0; 20th May 2019 at 09:37 AM.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2019, 10:05 AM   #653
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,727
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Looks like a couple of racists got triggered by my little joke. How drole.

ETA: For those who need the joke explained, I used a Nazi-expression to demand the wholesale murder of all racists in an expression of what the Nazi-apologists would call free speech. As we can see, they didn't like it much. The difference between me and Nazis who use the expression to demand the murder of minorities is that I was joking.
It was a pretty funny joke, just not in the way it was intended to be.

But fear not, Count Dankula made a Holocaust joke too, which everybody found hilarious. Everybody that is, except the UK government.

What we really need to do is toss all the SJWs into the gulag. We could put cameras all over the place and televise the place in a kind of Atheism+ meets Survivor type of show.

Damn, this type of humour is contagious
Stout is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2019, 01:14 PM   #654
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,633
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Although uke2se is obviously doing a Poe...
Good to see you've woken up to/changed your mind about that.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
...you seem to actually believe what you are posting. Are you really running with the idea that if we sanitize free speech enough, nobody will do wrong?
You are arguing like a pro-gun lobbyist - that if a solution is not a 100% guaranteed, gold-plated, silver bullet certainty to completely solve the problem, then don't implement it at all. IMO, if a solution can solve even as little as 5% of a problem, its a start and its worth implementing as part of a plan to attack the other 95%.

If we sanitise free speech enough LESS people will do wrong, there is LESS likelihood that a nutcase potential spree-killer will be triggered into murdering a couple of dozen people.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Have you considered the possibility that while some might be influenced to do wrong when reading the "wrong" opinions, others who might have done wrong could be influenced to change their mind about doing wrong because of exposure to counter opinions?
Can you show us an example of this happening?
__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th May 2019, 08:48 PM   #655
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,436
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Good to see you've woken up to/changed your mind about that.
Huh? Is there a post where I took "final solution" seriously?

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If we sanitise free speech enough LESS people will do wrong, there is LESS likelihood that a nutcase potential spree-killer will be triggered into murdering a couple of dozen people.
That's like saying that if we crack down on drugs enough there will be LESS people doing drugs, LESS drug related crime and LESS people dying of drug overdoses.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Can you show us an example of this happening?
More to the point, can you show that cracking down on "wrong" opinions will do what you claim?

Terror related activities are more about religious motivation and less about people watching YouTube and thinking "terrorism is a good idea". To the extent that somebody decides to go on a gun rampage, they are more likely to be influenced by media reports of others doing the same thing (maybe we should suppress those as well) than by seeing somebody they didn't seek out preaching messages of hate.

Society was outwardly much more puritanical in years gone by. That doesn't mean that crimes related to sex/gambling/etc were less prevalent. They were just more well hidden. In fact, this secrecy enabled sex crimes to flourish in churches and institutions.

How do you think that racist attitudes of the past were changed? Was it because one day the government suddenly decided to change things? No! It was because the free exchange of ideas made this change possible. And now you want to suppress freedom of expression?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 12:51 AM   #656
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,604
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Although uke2se is obviously doing a Poe, you seem to actually believe what you are posting. Are you really running with the idea that if we sanitize free speech enough, nobody will do wrong?

Have you considered the possibility that while some might be influenced to do wrong when reading the "wrong" opinions, others who might have done wrong could be influenced to change their mind about doing wrong because of exposure to counter opinions?
Yes. I have myself changed opinions radically on receiving new information.

I have also gone down the rabbit hole on several occasions. Notably, becoming a borderline Truther and really went down the rabbit hole on Peak Oil. It's been more than ten years, but I remember being convinced that modern society was about to go off a cliff with famine, population contraction and resource wars, as not a fun time. I have some empathy for people who fall into cults or wholeheartedly believe narratives.

And you are right, I got out of those things because I seek out information and test my convictions.

These information rabbit-holes exist by omitting counter-arguments and blatant dishonest arguing.
Simply presenting argument and counter-argument is not enough (Today on Geraldo; The Holocaust, did it happen or not? Find out after the break!).

The matter is often framed as:

The argument for censorship: These are private companies, they can choose what they let on their platforms
The argument against censorship: These platforms are so big that they are now where public discourse takes place, and should thus be seen as public utilities and we can invoke the US constitutional right to free speech.

But the more I think about this, and place myself in the shoes of the platforms; Can we even reasonably ask for-profit companies to broadcast certain forms of speech? Can we really demand a corporation make itself complicit in a possible mass shooting or lynching?
Hence my billboard example.

Alex Jones is a good example. Can you have some dude constantly blast professionally produced blood-libel against "the elite" into the public consciousness and then, when one of his fans shoots Gabrielle Gifford, throw up your hands and claim innocence?

Unless we make laws that force platforms to spread (possible) hate-speech, thereby making them immune to legal repercussions, it is inevitable that the platforms will try to protect themselves and will ban certain speech.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!

Last edited by Eddie Dane; 21st May 2019 at 12:52 AM.
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 01:07 AM   #657
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,604
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
sigh...

Yet again.

Louis Farrakhan. Very racist. Very anti-Semitic. Also strongly anti-LGBT. Anti-abortion. Backs all of the above through conspiracy theory. Strongly religious. Favors a rigidly, de jure patriarchal state where women stay at home and follow the instructions of the men in their lives. Loudly champions business ownership. Con man with many land ownings. Prone to telling lies. Fantasies about returning to an entirely mythical previous state before "those people" (whites, controlled by the Jews - because it's always the Jews with these sorts) ruined everything.

Make him a dimwitted white slob, and you've basically got the current US president, or possibly Alex Jones. The guy's actually far right.

(It's harder to discuss Antifa, since they aren't actually an organized group, but rather a bunch of groups and individuals with wildly differing goals, in a momentary marriage of convenience.)
I have to admit that kind of like the aesthetic Nation Of Islam has going. The whole smart suit with bowtie look really works. Although X wore it best.

Trump is a ridiculously bad dresser. Why can't he just get a suit that fits and not wear his tie hanging down to his scrotum?
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 02:15 AM   #658
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,436
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
These information rabbit-holes exist by omitting counter-arguments and blatant dishonest arguing.
Simply presenting argument and counter-argument is not enough (Today on Geraldo; The Holocaust, did it happen or not? Find out after the break!).
Those two sentences contradict each other.

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
The matter is often framed as:

The argument for censorship: These are private companies, they can choose what they let on their platforms
The argument against censorship: These platforms are so big that they are now where public discourse takes place, and should thus be seen as public utilities and we can invoke the US constitutional right to free speech.
You are arguing for a case that you are not advocating. The question is not whether private media companies should be forced to permit radical views on their platforms. Private companies should be free to set their own policies on what they will or not permit on their platforms.

However, you are only arguing for this if they set the "correct" policies. In reality, you want to force them to prohibit "incorrect" views from their platforms.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 03:05 AM   #659
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,604
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Those two sentences contradict each other.


You are arguing for a case that you are not advocating. The question is not whether private media companies should be forced to permit radical views on their platforms. Private companies should be free to set their own policies on what they will or not permit on their platforms.

However, you are only arguing for this if they set the "correct" policies. In reality, you want to force them to prohibit "incorrect" views from their platforms.
No contradiction, I'm just bad at writing.

I got sucked into echo chambers before Facebook was a thing.

Now Social media platforms are showing that which gets the most clicks. they could change that and present both sides of every argument. So people who like Alex Jones also get 'of course the Globalists aren't drinking children's blood, you silly idiot' to bance their information diet.

Social Media platforms are free to host any content they like. they are also free to block any content they like.

I'm simply making the observation that if my platform was used to dox the parents of school-shooting victims, I'd run the **** away from that.
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 01:48 PM   #660
Myriad
Hyperthetical
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: A pocket paradise between the sewage treatment plant and the railroad
Posts: 14,918
"Computer, identify the farthest-right Facebook group, and ban it."

COMPLETED

"Loop previous instruction."

WORKING...
WORKING...
NO GROUPS FOUND
__________________
A zřmbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 02:34 PM   #661
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,633
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Trump is a ridiculously bad dresser. Why can't he just get a suit that fits and not wear his tie hanging down to his scrotum?
Maybe he just needs to wear his tie shorter.....

__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 02:51 PM   #662
Bouncing Bettys
Thinker
 
Bouncing Bettys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Bowen Island, British Columbia
Posts: 185
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Looks like a couple of racists got triggered by my little joke. How drole.

ETA: For those who need the joke explained, I used a Nazi-expression to demand the wholesale murder of all racists in an expression of what the Nazi-apologists would call free speech. As we can see, they didn't like it much. The difference between me and Nazis who use the expression to demand the murder of minorities is that I was joking.
Not to derail this thread any further but I'd be curious to know your thoughts, or anyone's for that matter, on Mark Meechan (CountDankula) attempting to prank his girlfriend by secretly training her pug to do a "Nazi salute" and the resulting arrest and sentencing by the courts.

I appreciate humour and no subject should be off limits. Refreshing to see it from both sides in the political climate we find ourselves in.
Bouncing Bettys is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 03:26 PM   #663
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,872
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Maybe he just needs to wear his tie shorter.....

Oh, come on, who would believe such an obvious caricature? Those hands are far too large for this picture to be taken seriously!
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 03:58 PM   #664
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,633
Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
Not to derail this thread any further but I'd be curious to know your thoughts, or anyone's for that matter, on Mark Meechan (CountDankula) attempting to prank his girlfriend by secretly training her pug to do a "Nazi salute" and the resulting arrest and sentencing by the courts.

I appreciate humour and no subject should be off limits. Refreshing to see it from both sides in the political climate we find ourselves in.
OK, so lets add some background to give some context to this.

Taken in isolation, you'd be forgiven for thinking that what he did is just a joke, that his arrest and conviction was a gross overreach by authorities. However, as you know perfectly well, its not as straightforward as that.

1. For a few years now, Meechan has been a big supporter of UKIP, even campaigning for them in a few videos.

2. In March 2018, Meechan met with far-right leader Tommy Robinson prior to Robinson's jailing.

3. Robinson also protested outside the court when Meechan was sentenced.

4. On May 6, 2018 Meechan spoke at a far-right "March For Freedom" alongside Milo Yiannopoulos, Lauren Southern (via video link as she's banned from the UK), and UKIP leader Gerard Batten.

5. On 16 June 2018, Meechan announced that he had joined UKIP

6. In April 2019, Meechan said he intends to stand for MEP on behalf of UKIP in the upcoming 2019 European Parliament election in the United Kingdom. He was named fourth on UKIP's list in Scotland.

7. Meechan is an avid supporter of Alex Jones.

In my view, all of this taken together makes Meechan at worst, a white supremacist, or at best, a supporter of their cause. This kind of scum often use the expression "only joking" as a retrospective cover for their racism when they have been caught and called on it.

Now regardless of that, I still do think that it was a bit of an overreach, but not as much as I first thought - before I found out that Meechan had form.
__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 04:12 PM   #665
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,930
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I have to admit that kind of like the aesthetic Nation Of Islam has going. The whole smart suit with bowtie look really works. Although X wore it best.

Trump is a ridiculously bad dresser. Why can't he just get a suit that fits and not wear his tie hanging down to his scrotum?
I said that for a specific reason. There's the difference in fashion sense, the simple fact that Farrakhan wouldn't dream of serving guests room temperature fast food, he's far more well-spoken and charismatic (his audiences as well - this would make him vastly more dangerous were he white)...

And then there's this:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


...and yet we pretend that Dolt 45, of all the clowns, is the sophisticated one, and Farrakhan the raving anti-Semite leftist (again, he's a far right reactionary, and not at all prone to raving. Clearly anti-Semitic, though). It's this sort of lazy acceptance of white supremacists that got us in the US our current idiot president, who now threatens more wars, massive tariffs, and massive social division - *actual*, violent division, not "Obama said his son would look like Trayvon, wah!"

Maybe Facebook, and quite a few other media outlets, should reconsider how they treat white supremacists compared to how they treat Farrakhan.

Last edited by Mumbles; 21st May 2019 at 04:18 PM.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 04:19 PM   #666
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,063
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In my view, all of this taken together makes Meechan at worst, a white supremacist, or at best, a supporter of their cause. This kind of scum often use the expression "only joking" as a retrospective cover for their racism when they have been caught and called on it.

Now regardless of that, I still do think that it was a bit of an overreach, but not as much as I first thought - before I found out that Meechan had form.
Wow. I had heard of the case but never looked into it. He was convicted of being "grossly offensive" under the Communications Act 2003. That's just insane. Holy crap.

Note - I'm sure that this guy is a total douchebag, but that doesn't matter to me.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 04:23 PM   #667
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,063
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
the simple fact that Farrakhan wouldn't dream of serving guests room temperature fast food,
When I was a kid, my mother and I were traveling in the city via bus and got caught in the rain. I was really young, like maybe 4. We ducked into a restaurant, and she ordered some kind of sandwich on "wheat bread," and the server informed her that they "didn't serve white bread," so don't worry. Turns out it was a NOI place. My mom loved to tell that story.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 04:43 PM   #668
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 43,941
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
There is a little tract called “DEFENSE OF THE INQUISITION”, it goes:
----------------------------------------------------------------
In true SJWs there is nothing to be seen of that moral and doctrinal laxity which the modernists qualify as "tolerance" or as "liberty of conscience." SJW’s maybe patient and merciful with repentant sinners, but never recognize any right of error and expose obstinate propagators of error to public condemnation. The Inquisition adopted an attitude toward heretics comparable to that of SJWs.

While SJWs may recognize the freedom of conscience of the individual in his innermost heart, if the individual is free, at the risk of his salvation, to refuse the faith, it does not follow that he can propagate his errors and thus lead other souls to hell. So, the SJWs respects the freedom of conscience of individuals, but not the freedom of expression of false doctrines.
-----------------------------------------------------------------



For this who are wondering, the actual text is below. It is illuminating how consistent humanity’s inquisitorial urge is over the centuries. The espoused cause may differ, but the self –righteous refusal to agree to disagree, the desire to burn the heretic rather than submit to democratic debate is consistent.


In the true Gospel there is nothing to be seen of that moral and doctrinal laxity which the modernists qualify as "tolerance" or as "liberty of conscience." Christ was patient and merciful with repentant sinners, but He never recognized any right of error and He exposed obstinate propagators of error to public condemnation. The Inquisition adopted an attitude toward heretics comparable to that of our Lord.

But if the Church recognizes the freedom of conscience of the individual in his innermost heart, if the individual is free, at the risk of his salvation, to refuse the faith, it does not follow that he can propagate his errors and thus lead other souls to hell. So, the Church respects the freedom of conscience of individuals, but not the freedom of expression of false doctrines.


http://archives.sspx.org/against_sou...nquisition.htm
The single thing I find most frightening to day is that more and more people on both the left and the right think they have a right..in fact, a moral duty..to surpress and punish those who they think might, is some way, be "Harmful To Society".

Or in other words, " I have a right to shut you up, you doubleplusungood crimethinker".
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.

Last edited by dudalb; 21st May 2019 at 04:47 PM.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 05:01 PM   #669
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 43,941
I note that a couple of our resident Trump defenders are outraged that Facebook kicked out a couple of racist, and consider that a violation of free speech.
I wonder if they would be equally outraged if it had been a couple of Marxist Revolutionaries who had been kicked off. I really doubt it.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 05:14 PM   #670
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,970
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
"Computer, identify the farthest-right Facebook group, and ban it."

COMPLETED

"Loop previous instruction."

WORKING...
WORKING...
NO GROUPS FOUND
"Computer, ban extremist groups that are clearly violating the TOS."

"Operation complete. 1,432 groups deleted out of 14,145,458."
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 05:16 PM   #671
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,727
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Wow. I had heard of the case but never looked into it. He was convicted of being "grossly offensive" under the Communications Act 2003. That's just insane. Holy crap.

Note - I'm sure that this guy is a total douchebag, but that doesn't matter to me.
This is where all this censorship stuff is headed. Real criminal charges, not just some moral scold wagging their finger on the internet.

There's some sort unspoken of Chinese style social credit system on just who gets to make these jokes like 100 finger wags rewards you with the privlige of making mass murder jokes.
Stout is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 06:25 PM   #672
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,464
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
How do you think that racist attitudes of the past were changed? Was it because one day the government suddenly decided to change things? No! It was because the free exchange of ideas made this change possible.

Not quite. The "free exchange of ideas" on racism didn't really exist at that time. What changed the attitudes of the past was a relatively small minority of people agitating for change, organizing marches and protests, stating sit-ins and get-out-the-vote campaign, and building up enough momentum to convince elected officials to push through anti-discrimination and anti-segregation legislation, legislation which was actively opposed by the majority in many communities.

Said opposition was very often brutal and bloody, and many people died trying to achieve said equality. Sitting around talking about it didn't do it, people going out and getting themselves killed trying to make a change did.

Racism isn't countered much by "the free exchange of ideas", because there really aren't any ideas to be exchanged from the racist's point of view, there is only emotion and rationalization. What counters racism most strongly is exposure to and interaction with other ethnicities, where one can experience the humanity of others, instead of merely being preached at about it. Racism, despite the justifications given for it, is ultimately based on fear, and only countering that fear with experience and exposure has any real effectiveness.

If you listen to a lot of the former neo-Nazis, those who have turned their back on other hate groups, and embraced a more progressive and less hateful outlook, one of the key factors was circumstances forcing them together with the objects of their hate. Not by "ideas" happening to drift by them while they were ensconced in their echo chambers.

One who did not live through or closely study those times tend to forget that nearly the entirety of American society was an echo chamber of sorts. Very little dissent and free speech was actually tolerated if it countered the jingoism, red-baiting, racist fear-mongering that dominated American culture at the time. The various media production codes, the red-scare witch-hunts, neighbors suspiciously spying on neighbors, and so on. It took work and blood to get to where we are today, not whinging about "free speech" and censorship.

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
got sucked into echo chambers before Facebook was a thing.

I think what people are failing to understand is that actions like Facebook banning racist, terrorist, and similar group is doing is breaking up those very echo chambers.

The "free exchange of ideas" is only possibly where ideas are exchanged. Social media echo chambers do not allow said free exchange, and those who are engaged in those echo chambers are not about to go seeking out other ideas.

When I was in my 20s, I very nearly ended up going down what we would now call an "Incel" rabbit hole. What prevented me from doing so was having people around who made the effort to call me on my BS, and verbally slap some sense into me; combined with going out and actually spending time with people, women in particular, and learning through experience how and why I was wrong.

If I had had one of the contemporary Incel communities to reinforce my anger and fear, then I very likely would have ended up far, far worse and never gotten myself out of the negative headspace that enabled it.

The same with my Evangelical religious-right upbringing. It was being forced out of that and into a wider society, where I could experience things from outside perspectives, that enabled me to turn my back on it.

[b]That[/i] is why the far-right, religious terrorists, Incels, and other hate groups push so hard against allowing private companies like Facebook and Twitter and Reddit to remove their hate. They rely very heavily on having those echo chambers, having those communities reinforcing their fears and hatreds. They depend on those platforms for recruitment and reinforcement. That is why they have duped others into defending them as "free speech". They are not at all in favour of free speech. If you don't believe me, go hang out in one of these groups, try to "freely exchange" anti-racism, pro-LGBTQ, pro-feminism ideas. See how quickly you're shouted down and banned.

That's why religious groups are pushing so hard right now for "religious freedom" legislation that allows them to divorce themselves, and more importantly their children, from wider society. To create those echo chambers in charter schools, churches, businesses, and so on.

In order to learn and grow and "freely exchange" ideas, the echo chambers need to be broken up. Leaving them to fester and grow will not in any way serve any sort of "free exchange". As long as people are capable of finding sufficient numbers of others to reinforce their fears and hatreds, they are not going to be interested in "ideas" that oppose their own worldview.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 09:00 PM   #673
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,633
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I think what people are failing to understand is that actions like Facebook banning racist, terrorist, and similar group is doing is breaking up those very echo chambers.

The "free exchange of ideas" is only possibly where ideas are exchanged. Social media echo chambers do not allow said free exchange, and those who are engaged in those echo chambers are not about to go seeking out other ideas.

When I was in my 20s, I very nearly ended up going down what we would now call an "Incel" rabbit hole. What prevented me from doing so was having people around who made the effort to call me on my BS, and verbally slap some sense into me; combined with going out and actually spending time with people, women in particular, and learning through experience how and why I was wrong.

If I had had one of the contemporary Incel communities to reinforce my anger and fear, then I very likely would have ended up far, far worse and never gotten myself out of the negative headspace that enabled it.

The same with my Evangelical religious-right upbringing. It was being forced out of that and into a wider society, where I could experience things from outside perspectives, that enabled me to turn my back on it.

[b]That[/i] is why the far-right, religious terrorists, Incels, and other hate groups push so hard against allowing private companies like Facebook and Twitter and Reddit to remove their hate. They rely very heavily on having those echo chambers, having those communities reinforcing their fears and hatreds. They depend on those platforms for recruitment and reinforcement. That is why they have duped others into defending them as "free speech". They are not at all in favour of free speech. If you don't believe me, go hang out in one of these groups, try to "freely exchange" anti-racism, pro-LGBTQ, pro-feminism ideas. See how quickly you're shouted down and banned.

That's why religious groups are pushing so hard right now for "religious freedom" legislation that allows them to divorce themselves, and more importantly their children, from wider society. To create those echo chambers in charter schools, churches, businesses, and so on.

In order to learn and grow and "freely exchange" ideas, the echo chambers need to be broken up. Leaving them to fester and grow will not in any way serve any sort of "free exchange". As long as people are capable of finding sufficient numbers of others to reinforce their fears and hatreds, they are not going to be interested in "ideas" that oppose their own worldview.
THIS.

Excellent post!
__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 09:36 PM   #674
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,464
Oh, and going back to something I and others mentioned earlier about Facebook banning people for daring to fight back against white supremacism, yet another artist banned:

Facebook Bans Artist For Transforming MAGA Hats
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 10:27 PM   #675
Baylor
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,752
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
What choice is there, really?

For argument's sake, let's say you have a not-so-original business idea and buy a digital billboard on Times Square. You then let people put messages on the billboard via a website, interspersed with commercials.

I start posting MY content on YOUR platform, Giz Inc.

Only, my content is Holocaust denial, the charge that the Sandy Hook parents are crisis actors (along with their addresses) and that Rocco's Pizza place is holding kids captive in the basement (with address) and that Martin Luther King was a Jewish pawn.

What company policy are you as CEO of Giz Inc going to implement?

On the one hand, you own some of the most prominent advertising space in the country and it plays a big role in the national conversation. So you feel you should stick to principles of free speech. And people love the drama of the argument-counterargument that is giving your billboard a lot of attention.

On the other hand, some mentally ill person seems to have just shot up Rocco's Pizza with an M-16 while ranting about paedophiles and your billboard. And the phones are ringing off the hook with lawyers and what not, and your receptionist really, really, really wants you to take this call from this CNN producer and the whole office is staring at you, wondering how you're going to handle this.
Are you referring to Comet Ping Pong?
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 10:35 PM   #676
Baylor
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,752
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Wow. I had heard of the case but never looked into it. He was convicted of being "grossly offensive" under the Communications Act 2003. That's just insane. Holy crap.

Note - I'm sure that this guy is a total douchebag, but that doesn't matter to me.
What are you basing this on? I don't know much about Count Dankula either but he appears to be of the "radical centrist" bunch. So you just call people "douchebags" even though you admit you have no reason to? You're just "sure" he is. Are you sure you're not just placating the far euroleft that controls this forum?

Last edited by Baylor; 21st May 2019 at 10:54 PM.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 10:53 PM   #677
Baylor
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,752
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post

The argument for censorship: These are private companies, they can choose what they let on their platforms
The argument against censorship: These platforms are so big that they are now where public discourse takes place, and should thus be seen as public utilities and we can invoke the US constitutional right to free speech.
The argument is more like:

The argument against censorship: These platforms were piggybacked off U.S. taxpayer funded infrastructure. And the technology was built on U.S. taxpayer funded research. So these companies have no right to censor political speech when their companies were built off the backs of the American taxpayer.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2019, 11:01 PM   #678
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,202
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The argument is more like:

The argument against censorship: These platforms were piggybacked off U.S. taxpayer funded infrastructure. And the technology was built on U.S. taxpayer funded research. So these companies have no right to censor political speech when their companies were built off the backs of the American taxpayer.
By the same token, the US should be able to dictate drug prices.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 12:20 AM   #679
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,436
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
"Computer, identify the farthest-right Facebook group, and ban it."

COMPLETED

"Loop previous instruction."

WORKING...
WORKING...
NO GROUPS FOUND
I'm sure that after removing the farthest-right Facebook group, it would identify the next farthest-right Facebook group as the farthest-right Facebook group. Loop the instruction often enough and the farthest-left Facebook would ultimately be identified as the farthest-right Facebook group and after that was removed, there would be no groups left.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by psionl0; 22nd May 2019 at 12:23 AM.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 12:25 AM   #680
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,436
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
No contradiction, I'm just bad at writing.
That might explain why sometimes it appears that you are arguing that private media companies should have the right to include or exclude racist extremists on their platform and at other times you appear to be arguing for the suppression of all racist views altogether.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:46 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.