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Tags New Zealand incidents , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 5th March 2019, 10:50 AM   #441
theprestige
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Let everyone compete. Women are practically gone from all level competition. Sports are sexist.

Split into male and female categories based on physical sex. Sports are transphobic.

Split into male and female categories based on identified gender. Trans athletes dominate female competition, practically non-existent from male competition. Sports are now both sexist and transphobic.

Everybody: "We totally understand that you can't please everybody."
Also everybody: "OMG I can't believe I'm not the one you decided to not please."

Can't win, can't lose, can't quit the game.
Quit the game is probably the actual solution.
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Old 5th March 2019, 11:42 AM   #442
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Maybe you give up your right to play in mens or womens leagues when you massively mess with your body? I mean that's already the case if you do it with drugs that enhance performance. If there was some kind of "robot muscle" you could have implanted would they allow that in weight lifting?

Ultimately the categories of sport competition are already arbitrary and meant to try and make it fair. Letting people who were born men play as women doesn't seem fair, at least in a lot of cases.
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Old 5th March 2019, 11:55 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
If there was some kind of "robot muscle" you could have implanted would they allow that in weight lifting?
It doesn't require implants, but certain powerlifting federations allow the use of specialized elastic clothing which provides mechanical assistance to the lifter. Permissible equipment is often specified exactly (as in a list of specific brand and models is approved, nothing else is) in order to keep things fair between competitors.

https://barbend.com/raw-vs-equipped-powerlifting/
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Old 5th March 2019, 12:15 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
Maybe you give up your right to play in mens or womens leagues when you massively mess with your body? I mean that's already the case if you do it with drugs that enhance performance. If there was some kind of "robot muscle" you could have implanted would they allow that in weight lifting?

Ultimately the categories of sport competition are already arbitrary and meant to try and make it fair. Letting people who were born men play as women doesn't seem fair, at least in a lot of cases.
^^

This

There are sacrifices all the time, everyone has to make when they make decisions, and while I am perfectly aware that there is already pressures on people who chose to transgender that are large, frankly tough tits (pardon the pun), just add if you do it, you can't play elite womens sport.
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Old 5th March 2019, 12:16 PM   #445
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
^^

This

There are sacrifices all the time, everyone has to make when they make decisions, and while I am perfectly aware that there is already pressures on people who chose to transgender that are large, frankly tough tits (pardon the pun), just add if you do it, you can't play elite womens sport.
Problem is, by some definitions, they are women, so excluding them created some issues.

Course, the issue could be those definitions.
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Old 5th March 2019, 12:22 PM   #446
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That's the paradox that no one is addressing.

"You don't count / you belong to a third category" isn't going to work when literally trying to gain... errr access (not the exact word, but close) to an established group is THE ENTIRE POINT.

If trans-women were happy being women some of the time or happy being a new third category or sub-category we WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION.

There's women/men doing it, we want to be involved in that in the way we define ourselves isn't a side issue, it's the issue.
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Old 5th March 2019, 12:27 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Problem is, by some definitions, they are women, so excluding them created some issues.

Course, the issue could be those definitions.
And to those who think they are women, they just need to comprehend they are performanced enhanced women, just like any other hormone influenced female athlete
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Old 5th March 2019, 12:51 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Problem is, by some definitions, they are women, so excluding them created some issues.

Course, the issue could be those definitions.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's the paradox that no one is addressing.

"You don't count / you belong to a third category" isn't going to work when literally trying to gain... errr access (not the exact word, but close) to an established group is THE ENTIRE POINT.

If trans-women were happy being women some of the time or happy being a new third category or sub-category we WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION.

That is not, actually, universal. In point of fact, quite a number of us are perfectly happy to be a "third gender". Of course, most of us also have no interest whatsoever in competitive sports, particularly on a professional level.
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Old 5th March 2019, 12:53 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That is not, actually, universal. In point of fact, quite a number of us are perfectly happy to be a "third gender".
Not sure it'd have the numbers for healthy competitions, mind you.
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Old 5th March 2019, 12:57 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not sure it'd have the numbers for healthy competitions, mind you.

Which is something I really don't give a rat's about, personally. But I don't see why skill classes can't be used, the way that they already are for some sports.
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Old 5th March 2019, 01:06 PM   #451
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Which is something I really don't give a rat's about, personally.
Nor I, but obviously a number of people care. Smaller categories make it harder to get some really good crop.

Quote:
But I don't see why skill classes can't be used, the way that they already are for some sports.
As stated numerous times before, because women would consistently rank lower than men. The entire reason why they have their own categories is to avoid that.
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Old 5th March 2019, 01:08 PM   #452
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At a certain point this is gonna turn into me being the Universal Champion of the 1st Annual Male 39-40 Year Old Veteran Atheist Who Drives a Dodge and has a Chihuahua named Martini Games.
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Old 5th March 2019, 01:41 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
At a certain point this is gonna turn into me being the Universal Champion of the 1st Annual Male 39-40 Year Old Veteran Atheist Who Drives a Dodge and has a Chihuahua named Martini Games.
Would you let the Male 39-40 Year Old Veteran Atheist Who Drives a Dodge and has a Chihuahua named Gimlet compete? Could he rename his dog, or would the dog's prior name still give him an unfair competitive advantage?
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Old 5th March 2019, 02:15 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Would you let the Male 39-40 Year Old Veteran Atheist Who Drives a Dodge and has a Chihuahua named Gimlet compete? Could he rename his dog, or would the dog's prior name still give him an unfair competitive advantage?
A better comparison would be would you let a male 39-40 Year Old Veteran Atheist Who Drives a Dodge and has a Mastiff/Rottweiler cross that now self identifies as a Chihuahua named Martini compete.
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Old 5th March 2019, 03:38 PM   #455
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Sounds great. I'll make sure I bring my emotional support flamethrower when I go along to watch.
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Old 5th March 2019, 04:28 PM   #456
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
As stated numerous times before, because women would consistently rank lower than men. The entire reason why they have their own categories is to avoid that.

That doesn't follow. Rank lower in what? The entire point of having skill categories is to have separate rankings. That's why boxing has a welterweight champion alongside a heavyweight champion. Does that mean a welterweight champion is ranked lower than a heavyweight champion, and the category should therefore be avoided?
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Old 5th March 2019, 04:31 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That doesn't follow. Rank lower in what? The entire point of having skill categories is to have separate rankings. That's why boxing has a welterweight champion alongside a heavyweight champion. Does that mean a welterweight champion is ranked lower than a heavyweight champion, and the category should therefore be avoided?
Rank lower in performance, I would imagine

Boxing is not a very good comparison as the weight classes are just as much about safety
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Old 5th March 2019, 04:43 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Rank lower in performance, I would imagine

Boxing is not a very good comparison as the weight classes are just as much about safety

So are many other weight and skill classes. Although I have a very hard time believing that given the prevalence of traumatic brain injury in the sport.

But there are plenty of others which are about skill. Minor/Major League Baseball, for example.

But I guess it doesn't do much good for male egos to have to compete with women, or worse yet tranny perverts, who might actually be better than they are.
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Old 5th March 2019, 04:44 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That doesn't follow. Rank lower in what? The entire point of having skill categories is to have separate rankings. That's why boxing has a welterweight champion alongside a heavyweight champion. Does that mean a welterweight champion is ranked lower than a heavyweight champion, and the category should therefore be avoided?
Pound for pound, men outperform women in feats of strength. Co-ed weight classes in boxing would see men dominate boxing in every single weight class, followed by transwomen. Women would be effectively shut out out of the upper and middle levels of professional boxing.

Not that there's much interest in women's professional boxing, I think. But at least there women are testing themselves against other people with the same average strength to weight ratio.
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Old 5th March 2019, 04:52 PM   #460
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
But there are plenty of others which are about skill. Minor/Major League Baseball, for example.
Given a male pitcher and a female pitcher of equal skill, the male will on average dominate, because of his greater strength. His fastball will be faster than hers. He'll have greater stamina, which means he'll be able to pitch more innings, which a huge part of the strategic economy of baseball. And as the game goes on, his greater stamina means that as fatigue starts to set in, his pitches will still have more control than hers.

A female pitcher would need to develop above-average skills, just to compete with average male pitchers. And this is true across the board, in any contest where strength or stamina plays a part.
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:06 PM   #461
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
So are many other weight and skill classes. Although I have a very hard time believing that given the prevalence of traumatic brain injury in the sport.

But there are plenty of others which are about skill. Minor/Major League Baseball, for example.

But I guess it doesn't do much good for male egos to have to compete with women, or worse yet tranny perverts, who might actually be better than they are.
You seem to be under the impression it was just men who decided that they should be separate
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:07 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That doesn't follow. Rank lower in what? The entire point of having skill categories is to have separate rankings. That's why boxing has a welterweight champion alongside a heavyweight champion. Does that mean a welterweight champion is ranked lower than a heavyweight champion, and the category should therefore be avoided?
That’s really not the same thing. Very skillful lightweight boxers don’t box with sluggers in the heavyweight category because they would regularly end up dead. Similarly there could be plenty of skillful women who are separated from boxing men because of the anatomical advantage that men have. If a woman wants to box men, or a 60 kg man wanted to get in the ring with Tyson Fury then my take would be “hey, it’s your funeral!” But I think at the very least we need to be skeptical if Tyson Fury decides he is in the early stages of transitioning to female and now wants to box as a woman.

Similarly, in something like powerlifting, a very average man with a bit of training could bench press 100 kgs. In any commercial gym there will be several men capable of lifting that. For women, that’s only really possible for elite women, and some of those compete in non-tested competitions which suggests the use of steroids. There is no way that women can compete to win if those with the advantages of a male anatomy and a modicum of training compete with them.

https://strengthlevel.com/strength-s...bench-press/kg
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:13 PM   #463
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Let us have a look at the 400 meters to see if there is a chance of women being competitive with men

2016 Olympics final

Men - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athlet...0_metres#Final

Women - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athlet..._hurdles#Final

The winner of the womens race is nearly 9 seconds slower than the slowest man

Yeah. That would work

Edit: Mucked up. Wrong link (linked to hurdles)

5 seconds slower than the slowest man


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athlet...0_metres#Final
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:17 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
That’s really not the same thing. Very skillful lightweight boxers don’t box with sluggers in the heavyweight category because they would regularly end up dead. Similarly there could be plenty of skillful women who are separated from boxing men because of the anatomical advantage that men have. If a woman wants to box men, or a 60 kg man wanted to get in the ring with Tyson Fury then my take would be “hey, it’s your funeral!” But I think at the very least we need to be skeptical if Tyson Fury decides he is in the early stages of transitioning to female and now wants to box as a woman.

Similarly, in something like powerlifting, a very average man with a bit of training could bench press 100 kgs. In any commercial gym there will be several men capable of lifting that. For women, that’s only really possible for elite women, and some of those compete in non-tested competitions which suggests the use of steroids. There is no way that women can compete to win if those with the advantages of a male anatomy and a modicum of training compete with them.

https://strengthlevel.com/strength-s...bench-press/kg

I guess some people really are clueless on the concept of "skill and weight classes".
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:19 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Assuming you're right, they should just eliminate the segregation of men and women in sports and let the best person man win.
This isn't such as terrible idea, really.

Women's sport is undoubtedly a benefit, but the price is sex segregation and (thus) separate-but-unequal treatment.

I really do enjoy watching women's rugby, but I can probably get by with just the men's league.
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:21 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
But I guess it doesn't do much good for male egos to have to compete with women, or worse yet tranny perverts, who might actually be better than they are.
This is so off-base it is unbelievable.

I am more than happy for the male category to be changes to an open class which allows women and transmen to compete. But frankly, the problem with that is that, as John Macenroe said (to howls of outrage), if Serena Williams were to compete in the men’s category she would be 400th in the world.

Women are basically excluded from men’s categories in order to preserve the value of the women’s category. And that value is what a lot of female athletes are upset about being under threat.
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:23 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I guess some people really are clueless on the concept of "skill and weight classes".
Clue me in. You first said skill class and then confused it with weight classes. What is a “skill and weight” class? Is this actually a thing?
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:28 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I guess some people really are clueless on the concept of "skill and weight classes".
So explain it. Baseball has skill classes. The highest skilled players make big bucks in the major leagues. The lower skilled players play in the minors. If you had co-ed baseball, men would dominate the majors, because of the strength advantage they have at every skill level.

Pro boxing also has skill classes, in the sense that only the most skilled boxers in each weight class rise to the top of the sport. Put women in the mix, and the sport would still be dominated by men, in every weight class.

What's not to get? If we're missing some important aspect of your proposal, please explain it.

How would skill classes enable competitive co ed boxing at any level of the sport?

ETA: I think part of the problem is that you don't have much clue about how closely strength and skill are related, in tests of physical prowess. Baseball pitchers are a good example of this.

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Old 5th March 2019, 05:36 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Clue me in. You first said skill class and then confused it with weight classes. What is a “skill and weight” class? Is this actually a thing?
No. No it's not.
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:38 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
No. No it's not.
I don't really see how it would work, or how what it would solve. Maybe luchog will clue us in on whatever key element we're missing.
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:42 PM   #471
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
No. No it's not.
Nonetheless I would like to hear luchog’s explanation. I’m genuinely interested in learning how this conundrum can be solved. I actually teach some women who have a reasonable chance of competing in the Olympics and I genuinely want to know what the future holds for female sports.

I am not interested in trading snark. If I am clueless then I have a chance of learning something and I welcome that.
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Old 5th March 2019, 06:44 PM   #472
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
So are many other weight and skill classes. Although I have a very hard time believing that given the prevalence of traumatic brain injury in the sport.

But there are plenty of others which are about skill. Minor/Major League Baseball, for example.

But I guess it doesn't do much good for male egos to have to compete with women, or worse yet tranny perverts, who might actually be better than they are.
If you think the guys have anything to worry about, you don't really understand sport.

Women on the other hand would become second class competitors.

I feel you are trying to paint it as a toxic masculinity issue because it is a debate that you are more comfortable with.
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Old 5th March 2019, 06:49 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Nonetheless I would like to hear luchog’s explanation. I’m genuinely interested in learning how this conundrum can be solved. I actually teach some women who have a reasonable chance of competing in the Olympics and I genuinely want to know what the future holds for female sports.

I am not interested in trading snark. If I am clueless then I have a chance of learning something and I welcome that.
I believe it is a misunderstanding of sport.

Luchog wants there essentially to be

Good light
Good medium
Good heavy

OK light
OK medium
OK heavy

Crap light
Crap medium
Crap heavy

With the understanding that competitors would be matched based on skill and weight.

The problem is , where the money is will always be in "good" and that is where sports people want to be. And that would be dominated by biological men, hands down for every sport people in North America care about.
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Old 5th March 2019, 08:12 PM   #474
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I believe it is a misunderstanding of sport.

Luchog wants there essentially to be

Good light
Good medium
Good heavy

OK light
OK medium
OK heavy

Crap light
Crap medium
Crap heavy

With the understanding that competitors would be matched based on skill and weight.

The problem is , where the money is will always be in "good" and that is where sports people want to be. And that would be dominated by biological men, hands down for every sport people in North America care about.
Is this a thing that actually exists? The only comparable examples I know of are of no help to women at all. They tend to be split between amateur and pro - but they would still be dominated by cis-males. Obviously there are leagues in which teams can get promoted or relegated but again, in say the FA in the UK all the teams are male and probably will remain that way. I can see women getting into sports where there are specializations - coxes in rowing etc... baseball relief pitchers who have some special throw, etc... darts, snooker (oddly enough men seem to dominate these sports too!) Also I know of things like rugby sevens where the best teams play for the cup, the less good ones play for the plate and the worst ones play for spoon - or try to avoid it. Still, even the worst teams would probably be all-male affairs. I know of veterans leagues which use only over-40s but again all male.

I literally can’t see a way of women being competitive without their own leagues. So yeah, I agree with luchog about being clueless regarding luchog’s fix, despite luchog not giving a rat’s arse about sport. I await enlightenment.
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Old 5th March 2019, 08:50 PM   #475
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
But there are plenty of others which are about skill. Minor/Major League Baseball, for example.

But I guess it doesn't do much good for male egos to have to compete with women, or worse yet tranny perverts, who might actually be better than they are.
Minor league baseball survives in no small part because teams act as recruiting pools for the majors. And even in the minors few women could compete. If women have to compete against men, then in almost every sport the best women will be competing against lower tier men, and women’s participation in professional sports becomes just a rare curiosity.

If you think gender equality is important enough to justify that, well, that’s what you value, and there’s no point in arguing about it. But that’s what is at stake.
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Old 6th March 2019, 03:56 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I believe it is a misunderstanding of sport.

Luchog wants there essentially to be

Good light
Good medium
Good heavy

OK light
OK medium
OK heavy

Crap light
Crap medium
Crap heavy

With the understanding that competitors would be matched based on skill and weight.

The problem is , where the money is will always be in "good" and that is where sports people want to be. And that would be dominated by biological men, hands down for every sport people in North America care about.
But if biological women are not as good as biological men then 'women's' and 'men's' designations are effectively the same thing.It seems to be just a quirk of our social conditioning that we ended up here where womens and mens elite sports are seen as equivalent despite the gulf in class but you cannot deny that this binary system is excluding trans people and as ideas of gender change there are going to be issues like this that need to be rethought.

I am not clear what the answer is but maybe it is about having classes that better reflect what would actually be going on. Of course, you could just redefine Women's sports as Cis-women's sports. But I imagine a lot of women would object to that too.

And that is what bothers me about a lot of this. Women who want to close off their world to transwomen, deny that they are women and assume bad faith on the part of transwomen - you just want to muscle in on our space so you can beat us up/rape us/molest kids/stop us playing sport/etc etc
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Old 6th March 2019, 04:22 AM   #477
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I believe it is a misunderstanding of sport.

Luchog wants there essentially to be

Good light
Good medium
Good heavy

OK light
OK medium
OK heavy

Crap light
Crap medium
Crap heavy

With the understanding that competitors would be matched based on skill and weight.

The problem is , where the money is will always be in "good" and that is where sports people want to be. And that would be dominated by biological men, hands down for every sport people in North America care about.

I am wondering why you seem fixated on boxing which involves elements of actual physical danger.

Straight question

Do you think Trans men should be able to get into the ring and fist fight women within the same weight ratio in boxing?

And

Do you think men should be able to get into the ring and fist fight women within the same weight ratio in boxing?

Not difficult questions. Direct. Rather than your pretend ignorance

Edit: apologies re-read.

Those questions are to Luchog
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Old 6th March 2019, 04:40 AM   #478
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That doesn't follow. Rank lower in what? The entire point of having skill categories is to have separate rankings.
Yes, so women would mostly compete in the lower professional rankings. The top tiers would be dominated, perhaps entirely populated, by men.
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Old 6th March 2019, 04:50 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes, so women would mostly compete in the lower professional rankings. The top tiers would be dominated, perhaps entirely populated, by men.
this is already the case. We just pretend it isn't by calling them women's and men's sports rather than 'Elite sport' and 'not as good/strong' sports.
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Old 6th March 2019, 04:56 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
women’s participation in professional sports becomes just a rare curiosity.
I follow you up to here but don't see that this follows. There are plenty of non-elite professional sportspeople at various levels. In fact that is what women's sport currently is and it does quite well in many areas.
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